DEFO pax

[SHPW2]

Just been unexpectedly offered DEFO Pax, as opposed to Freighter, based in Sydney

1. Is there any bad feeling towards guys accepting these positions/ is it cutting some SO's lunch?
2. Any typical roster info would be appreciated.ie. trips /month, days away/at home etc.
3. Is commuting from NZ possible/practical

Cheers SHPW2

[cpdude]

SHPW2, I would not believe that pessimistic response above. I can see you spending a couple of extra days in HK per trip but I would guess you will still see 12-15 days home per month.:)

[ScratchF15]

Any chance this would happen Pax YVR or SFO. Do you have to be Canadian to base in YVR?

[Aussie]

Hey all,

Ive probably missed something here, but why are they taking on Direct entry FO PAX instead of upgrading the SO?

AUssie

[Numero Crunchero]

Aussie,
DEFO actually costs the company money...it will still take around 9years to get to CN but as a DEFO you will be earning more money than following the SO/FO path.
But for the forseeable future the company is limited by training...so DEFO saves them a course. I deally they would only employ DEFOs from now on but they can't get enough sectors/landings for FOs if there were no SOs.

I don't believe there will be any animosity...still a DoJ airline job whether you join as a DEFO /Freighter FO/SO.
cheers

[Night Watch]

SHPW2 no animosity from me.... but I have to say, you are going to join CX on a B scale as apposed to a C scale. You are doing this because we voted against CoS 07.... so at the risk of sounding like a militant union bloke, if you don't join the AOA straight away (support us as we supported you)..... well then if I happen to fly with you, don't expect me to buy you a beer at the end of the day!

[404 Titan]

Numero Crunchero
it will still take around 9years to get to CN but as a DEFO you will be earning more money than following the SO/FO path.
I think you will find that most direct entry DESO’s will be better off after Tax in Hong Kong than a DEFO pax or freighter guy on a base earning base pay after tax. I do accept though that it could be tough for a married guy with kids of school age in Hong Kong on an SO wage.

[Aussie]

Thanks for the explanation...

So the direct entry FO will be based outside HK yeah?

Aussie

[ksrmd11]

Any chance this would happen Pax YVR or SFO. Do you have to be Canadian to base in YVR?
Scratch, I doubt it, they need Freighter FO's in North America.
No, you don't have to be a Canadian to be based in YVR; an American can be based there and commute, just as a Canadian can be based in the US.
Cheers

[dragon501]

NO direct entry FO based HKG... (correct me if I am wrong...) Only certain outports... As for days off, patterns etc etc... Believe the CONTRACT not the promises....

Cheerio from across the street.. ;-)

[Sike]

I just got back from my second interview and I believe they said DEFO Pax in Sydney and Amsterdam on the Airbus.

[Numero Crunchero]

Howdy 404 - you been away?

Aus DEFO will get $10K per month plus 15.5%. Correct me if I am wrong but year 1 SO gets $35K HKD/month plus 15.5%. So after tax I would guess about $7K for the Oz guy and just over $30K(say $5K AUD) for HKG guy. I can assure from personal experience that the CoL is considerably higher in HKG than Oz when you have a family.
You should know better than to disagree with me on numbers;-)
The DEFO can come up to HKG in 3(or 4?) years and he will be on almost SFO salary and able to use housing allowance to buy a place if he wishes. The only way a HKG based SO can be better off is if he buys a place at the 2 year mark! After 4 years in the company he is now on JFO or FO1 whilst the DEFO is on FO4/SFO1 either on the base still or in HKG.

So I still assert that you are financially better off joining as a DEFO.

[404 Titan]

Numero Crunchero

No, busy working. You have left out that a DESO can get up to HKD$24150.00per month in housing assistance (50% of the rent free zone) on top of their basic year one monthly salary of HKD$32213.00 which they can use to pay for a rental property or pay off a mortgage if they buy a property in Hong Kong. So a DESO on HKD$56363.00 gross per month is about AUD$7500.00 per month after tax. After 2 years they go to the full rent free zone allowance of about HKD$48000.00 per month plus a basic monthly salary of HKD$40410.00. This is a monthly income in AUD of about $11800.00 net. A DEFO on a Sydney base must stay on that base for a minimum of four years. So if we say the DESO has had the full housing allowance for three years and is using it to pay off a mortgage, without going into the exact numbers I would say they are better off that the DEFO pax guy.

Would a CPA disagree with an MBA on numbers? I always like debating numbers.:E You know me Crunchero.:ok:

[Kane Toed]

IMHO the introduction of the based DEFO is going to have a great impact on currently employed SOs. However you look at it, the DEFOs must be delaying 'my' upgrade to FO - because there will be (far) fewer right hand seats available, and I expect that CX are not going to make me a JFO just to keep me happy. There is plenty of banter on this forum about the SO kontiki tours (much of which is true), but most of us do want to upgrade sooner rather than later. Moreover, many of us joined knowing that the expansion was happening, so we turned down freighter positions - on the expectation that the SO time would be reducing. DEFO pax can only delay us.

There is a further potential problem with future SYD bases for those of us in HK. Will there be an opportunity now for us to take a SYD base when we have been upgraded, or is it now only available to DEFO entrants? In short, will HK based crew be barred from bidding for SYD in future? Again, I was - and still am - happy to do my HK time, but it was always good to know that I could go home for a while later if required - especially helpful for those of us with kids.

Oh yes, I know that I could bid to go on the DEFO route, but as I AM one of the people that bought a property in HK prior to the 1 year point, if I were to sell it now I would effectively lose my deposit as the stamp duty / bond fees are pretty heavy. Not a hit that I can take on a SOs salary.

Basically not whinging - I was eyes open when I turned down the freighter to come to HK. Pity I didn't have all the information tho' as I would certainly have played things differently whilst I was here.

Overall, I struggle to see how currently serving DESOs who are on page 3 and lower on the seniority list are not going to be affected massively by this policy. It has already been stated by the company that next year there will < 100 SOs upgraded, and by the end of next year the SYD base will be filled with our new FO joiners. Are we approaching the era of the professional SO?

Oh, I voted NO for CoS07 and DEFO too. So were now?

[777300ER]

Excellent post KT. All very good points.

[404 Titan]

Kane Toed

I agree with most of what you have said. The only point I have to make is with the DEFO vote. Did you think you were voting on whether to allow the company to employ DEFO’s or “C” scale? The title of the vote was most misleading because what we were voting on was “C” scale COS for new joiners. It had nothing to do with DEFO’s. The company has always been able to employ DEFO’s on the pax fleet onto a HK base under COS99. How they are getting away with having them on a base though is another matter and debate.

[Numero Crunchero]

Queensland Frog I agree with 404 on this. It was about CoS. What we have now is the company doing what they have been doing since 1996 or earlier. Theoretically, cause i know there is some admin b*s involved, no SO should be disadvantaged financially...that doesn't mean to imply you won't be disadvantaged in how long it takes to get the window seat though!

I don't feel comfortable in this position, and I assure this is my opinion not some management spiel, but I could argue that the employment of DEFOs could speed up your upgrade. Why? Because the system is currently training course limited. so every DEFO pretty much saves a course...but with a time lag. I mean that whether he joins as SO or DEFO he has a course...but 3 years from now, the DEFO doesn't need an upgrade to FO course.

The reality....if I was a mean businessman running the company, with no regard to my personnel, I would recruit almost non stop DEFOs and keep upgrading SOs until the last minute...years from now.

Lets hope that they don't take the pure business approach.

404
you have brought in housing...I could bring in that education can cost more in hkg(after subsidy) than back home. I think the best way to sort this is for you to remember there were lots of CPAs running Enron and almost no MBAs running anything...then make sure we have a decent overnight and sort it out over half a dozen beers:-)
Look forward to it...and if you convince me, I will pay for the beers;-)

[404 Titan]

Numero Crunchero

I look at what is left over after all the expenses are paid and what assets have been accumulated along the way. The only thing that is really going against all Australians, Kiwi’s, etc except Americans is how much we have lost over the last 4 – 5 years with the slide in the US dollar and hence the HK dollar compared to our home countries. It’s been effectively about a 35% pay cut since I joined in 2000.

CPA and Enron in the same sentence? Ouch that wasn’t fair.:ouch:

Looking forward to the beers you will be paying for though.:ok: :p

[Five Green]

IMHO it comes down to the financial position you are in and whether you have a family or not.

If you are single and have a small amount of savings you can buy a small place and take your chances on the real estate market here. No guarantees there as we all know. However at the moment still a good bet.

If you are with family then you need a bigger chunk of your own money to afford a big enough place. As numero crunch pointed out if you have kids (as I do) you pay alot out of your own pocket.

So if you are single SO Hong Kong. If you are a family DEFO where ever unless you got a large chunk of change to plunk down on a flat. Although you might just love Asia !! My family are really happy here, but will have to go home soon as the little one is getting pollution related breathing problems. Really too bad as Hong Kong has been great (albeit expensive) for us.

As for the DEFOs an how they will affect SOs. There is no way that it will be quicker now to upgrade as an SO 4 years will continue to be the norm.
I feel for my SO friends as it really is bad timing for them. Also to add insult to injury the company is offering DEFO slots to SOs but they have to quit and rejoin loosing their seniority in the process. That is just wrong !

FG

[Kane Toed]

Okay NC, I have spent some time thinking about your reply, and, even though I know I'm pretty slow in the synapse department, I need you to clarify EXACTLY how:
the employment of DEFOs could speed up your upgrade
The first point I have issue with:every DEFO pretty much saves a courseHow so? Are you suggesting that SYD based FOs are not going to come to HK to do the 'bus groundschool and a sim / flying syllabus? Freighter DEFOs currently do a groundschool that is the same duration as the SO new joiners, a sim syllabus and then of course base training before the minimum of 25 sectors flying under supervision. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding how training works, but surely that is a greater burden than the eight sims (+ 1 consolidation sim) done by new SO before s/he starts the LFUS syllabus? Moreover, SO LFUS could be done by a TFO.

The second point must surely be the actual numbers coming in. Again please tell me (and I really want to hear good news) how the imminent entry of these DEFOs will help. If in 2007 CX has a requirement for 150 FOs and fills 50 of those slots with new joiner FOs, then they are going to upgrade 33% fewer SOs than if the need was met internally. Not only that, but these new joiner FOs have a seniority number lower than mine, so they can't be considered for command until I pass them - so they are effectively 'log jamming' the system.

We have seen that some people have had a problem with JFO upgrade after a long delay as a SO. I know that we get 12 hours / year 'hands on' simulator training to keep sharp, but that is going to be woefully inadequate if we end up doing 5 or 6 years as the chief bunk maker.

[Five Green]

Kane :

To play devil's advocate the DEFO needs no Adelaid (not that any does) and takes the FO course on entry into the company.
The DESO takes the Adelaid course the intro SO course and the FO course. Therefore, on paper more training cost per hour of productivity over 8 years. If the DEFO s were employed in Hong Kong this would be offset by higher cost by way of higher salary benefits etc. and there by make an SO a cost saving. This is the theory that was the seed of the SO programme. So if the company hired SOs on to a base and paid less than the current DEFO contract they could save even more money !!! (Shhhh don't say this too loud !!) However the only thing that seems to be preventing that is the reluctance of a number of interviewees to take SO positions. So we now have what we have, DEFO passanger based, that cost the company considerably less than Hong Kong based SOs. They are also more flexible than an SO as well.

While I can appreciate the business sense in this scheme I do not agree with it whole heartedly, as the impact on current SOs has to be negative. The plan is being sweetened by saying that you will upgrade as fast as you would if there was no expansion. Well that is great but that actually means you will upgrade slower than if there were no DEFOs. No question.

The DEFO slots should be offered with less strings to current SOs. I am sure that anywhere else in the world we could make perfectly safe FOs out of our current SOs. If that is not totally palpable we should be trying to minimise the impact by offering the DEFO slots to SOs with the qualifications. NOT making them quit, loose seniority, and join on the DEFO contract. I can see no benefit to the company by doing this. Someone please explain why the SOs are being forced to quit ?

FG

[Numero Crunchero]

Kane toad
CX argue that they are training capacity constrained...so you could argue that by doing one less course it frees up sim time/TC time etc to allow more upgrades per annum. Thats THEIR argument...I don't think it will much difference as it will still take 9-10years...50DEFOS might save you 2-6months at best...not worth worrying about in a decade.
They save a course in that you only do one course between joining and command. So even though at the present time there are the same number of courses given SO/DEFO/Freighter FO recruitment, in 3-5years they will not have to upgrade the DEFOs...make sense?

[E.P.]

Can anyone please advise;
1. If BNE is being offered as a base for DEFO?
2. What are the min experience requirements for DEFO?
3. Does considerable experience/ command time make a difference to promotion time?
4. Are commands offered (to anyone) outside HKG?

Thanks..:)

[jetset]

1. No, but you can commute and bid for it in the future.
2. On the website, the reality I am not sure but expect some proper jet time.
3. Only if you are prepared to take a command your seniority allows (i.e. no one wants: North American Freighter command) and you can pass.
4. Yes. On all bases I think but Airbus pax command in Oz is possible.

[404 Titan]

E.P.

1. No
2. As per DEFO freighter. It can be found on the CX web sight.
3. No.
4. Yes in seniority order. You must return to Hong Kong though to do your command. You can re-bid for the base but it will be awarded in seniority order so no guarantees.

[Numero Crunchero]

Kane Toed,
I have been thinking about your post. You are right in that if they need 150FOs next year and 50 are DEFO then you will be 'disadvantaged' by 50 courses. It will have NO effect on your time to command but will affect how long it takes to get a window seat. The mitigating factor is that if CX was training constrained for years, the 50 places you lose now might be made up for by having more simulator time available for CN upgrades in 3-5 years when these DEFOs would have been upgraded to FOs if they had joined as SOs! Does that make sense? Basically, no course difference now, but more courses available in the future. But it probably doesn't help you as you may be 6-8years away from CN????

Onto SYD bases...I don't think it will have any major effect on you wanting a base in SYD. It will still be seniority issued. CX couldn't fill the base and couldn't get people to join as SOs so they combined the two problems and the solution is DEFOs. In future, guys will leave the base to get upgraded and so slots will become available. From past experience they usually offer it to pax FOs....if they can't get them, and they ignore SOs, they can recruit DEFOs. Its a bit like freighter commands! CX still wants to have FOs in HKG....its just seen a temporary niche market in filling 2 bases with DEFOs. ONce they are filled, it will go back to normal. ANy vacancies on a base will be offered within the seniority list!

Hope I did a better job answering your questions, cheers adn merry xmas

EP
Bne is like the holy grail, xanadu, mecca....no one gets it unless they just finished working in management.

[skyvan]

A potentially stupid question, but a search does not give the answer as simply as I need.........why is there such a shortage of freighter pilots?

Is the pay that bad?

Is the Classic Jumbo course that hard?

The rapid promotion process looks like a reasonable carrot.

Any, and all answers, are wolcome.

[jetset]

I think there are a number of reasons and they may differ dependiing on where you are talking about.

e.g there is no shortage of classic pilots to work in Oz, there is a shortage of Captains in the EU.

The pay is not great (in comparison to FO starter salaries in all areas), US based guys are leaving (744) and the command course seems not to favour freighter promotions (US).

Also it is a time of expansion so there is greater demand for crew.

I'm not sure Rapid commmand has actually happened.

With a number of bases and types you see how it is difficult to answer such a general question.

[A/T less]

Moreover, many of us joined knowing that the expansion was happening, so we turned down freighter positions - on the expectation that the SO time would be reducing. DEFO pax can only delay us.




Excellent point!

although CX management has been trying desperately to confuse the S/Os that upgrade time will not be effected, and that it will still be four years.

Like the person above said, we made the decisions on coming to CX with the belief that upgrade time will reduce as the expansion is in full swing. Now that is not happening. Better yet! Some of us will probably upgrade to the A320 at KA for probably lesser money! Time wil tell.

Where is the loyalty? (Ok Ok, we're talking about CX management, forget that I said that)

I know quite a few S/Os are leaving the company in disgust.

They are too arrogant to believe this will backfire!

[A/T less]

Kane Toed,
It will have NO effect on your time to command but will affect how long it takes to get a window seat.

althought you might be correct here that the time to command will not be effected. However, FOs make more money than SOs. So the more time I spend on the jumpseat. The more $$$ I am losing out.

[MAX]

Sorry to crash this but have a couple of questions?

Is S/O to F/O upgrade performance based or not? If one a pilot has a stack of widebody and sim performance is good do they still wait 3-4 years?

How long before new join S/O can bid across to freighter and is this common place?

Appreciate the insight.

MAX:cool:

[A/T less]

Sorry to crash this but have a couple of questions?
Is S/O to F/O upgrade performance based or not? If one a pilot has a stack of widebody and sim performance is good do they still wait 3-4 years?
How long before new join S/O can bid across to freighter and is this common place?
Appreciate the insight.
MAX:cool:

Everything that you do at Catha Pacific is performance based. You will be closely watched and graded.

If you are looking to cut in line and bypass seniority, it won't happen. The upgrades are "seniority based" however your performance will have to be up to CX's standard or a guy below you can take your slot while you wait out a period of "attitude re-adjustment".

If you have a "stack of widebody" {experience} perhaps it is not your best interest to join as an S/O? If you do, you will need to stay complete your 2nd linecheck, attend an INTERVIEW session (which you will be graded) then a decision will be made by a management team on whether you will be given an opportunity to attend a course.

Cathay Pacific is all about road blocks and jumping through hoops. At least your life won't be boring as CX pilot!

CX is not for the faint of heart.

[MAX]

Thanks A/T,

Cx arent too different than my present outfit in many aspects it seems.

What about the move S/O to freighter? Does anyone bother and if not, why not.

Cheers.

MAX:cool:

[CV Donator]

MAX would that be Brittania

[Numero Crunchero]

A/T less
Financial effect shouldn't be too great. Lets say they recruit 50DEFOs, when you are in the senior group of 50 SOs you will get bypass pay. But you will get your upgrade later and each subsequent FO increment will also be later by the same amount. It will have a financial effect, but not as great as first glance appears! Again, there is an argument that could be made that your command might come earlier because of the training capacity constraint. So what little you lose in delayed FO increments might be made up for with earlier command!

MAX
Lots do move from pax FO to freighter CN...resistance is usually due to pay/basing availablity and I believe there is a higher failure rate...but no numbers to back that up. Not sure about SO-freighter...usually that choice has been made at the recruitment stage...more senior guys usually go onto freighters.
cheers

[404 Titan]

Numero Crunchero

One thing you missed with bypass pay is that the SO must be deemed suitable for upgrade to JFO i.e. Cat “A”. I have no idea weather the company is playing games by delaying Cat “A”ing SO’s to avoid bypass but there is strong arguments that there is a bit of that going on with FO’s to Captain because of the extensions past 55. Just a thought.

Merry Christmas and a great New Year mate.
404.:ok:

[goingdown]

Titan,
they don't delay SO's.They play the game.I can confirm this.

[404 Titan]

goingdown

Thanks for the correction. Out of interest how long is it taking on average for a DESO to be Cat “A”? When I joined it was twelve months.

[treholer]

Still around 12 months. It seems to happen post Mod 6

[404 Titan]

treholer

Thanks for that. I stand corrected.

[A/T less]

Numero Crunchero
One thing you missed with bypass pay is that the SO must be deemed suitable for upgrade to JFO i.e. Cat “A”. I have no idea weather the company is playing games by delaying Cat “A”ing SO’s to avoid bypass but there is strong arguments that there is a bit of that going on with FO’s to Captain because of the extensions past 55. Just a thought.
Merry Christmas and a great New Year mate.
404.:ok:
Titan,
Being Cat A alone is not enough to get by pass pay. You need to have been through the Tech Interview and pass along with the Cat A status before you are eligible for bypass pay.

I got an email from Mr. D Hau telling me this. Well, kind of..you know Denly!