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WLM
4th Aug 2004, 13:24
The best advice so far is from Arm out the window.:O
When you're younger and single, life seems a breeze...but we all get old and life becomes a little harder. A pension for the rest of your life is a good thing and a family to enjoy it with...
Fly for fun ie have some security behind you before venturing out in the harsh reality world of Rotary Wing. And before I get shot down by some, I am a commercial pilot, enjoys it, but wished I hadn't made so many sacrifices to get there, ie financial, marriage, living overseas most of the time etc.:(

heli_spy
4th Aug 2004, 14:12
Hi

I was in a similar position to you, twelve and a bit years in the job and working towards a 2/3rds final salary pension after another 17 years.

I'd been flying privately whilst in the Police and used my salary to pay for my PPL(H). I wasn't enjoying the job as much as I had used to, what with the endless paperwork, lack of support from the courts etc etc.

So I weighed it all up. Carefully. I spoke to my family and my friends both in and out of the job. I resigned. I moved overseas. I did my Commercial Licence. I flew whenever I could.

My main point to you is this: I have lost count of the number of police officers with whom I used to work and who are now approaching retirement age who have said to me since I left " I wish I'd done what you did when I was your age." If it doesnt work out for you at least when you get to 50 or 60 you can be satisfied that you gave it your best shot!

A famous person once said " Far better to regret something you have done than something you haven't"

All the Best and in the meantime

" Be careful out there."

heli_spy

TDP
4th Aug 2004, 15:05
Hey man...don't be foolish!!! I left the Air Force after ten years as a pilot and have spent the last 13 years in Commercial Helicopter Ops (from offshore work to EMS to airline work). The industry is probably one of the most difficult to break into because you don't have any experience and the smaller companies and jobs are the only ones that may hire you due to insurance reasons. I regret now not having a military pension like many of my "just retiring buddies" from the Air Force because I did exactly what you are proposing. It will be many years before you get up to a stable salary like the one you have now and unfortunately the risk of losing your medical as you get older (believe it or not it happens) or just never achieving a position that will give you sufficient income so you can retire comfortably is very high! Quite frankly, (some will disagree with me) the industry pays poorly in general and has not kept up with other occupations. Sorry to dampen your dreams...but the love of flying is not worth giving up what you have achieved in your police career or risking your families future for an industry that seems glamorous from the outside. Ten years is nothing- so finish it off!

VTA
4th Aug 2004, 15:53
TDP is right on the money....Stick with the Police for the paycheck, pension and security. Very few, if not no commercial operator will be able to offer what the Police are offering. If you can put some cash aside and fly for fun, then thats the way to go...I'm personally doing just about OK after 17 years in the industry, but dream of a company that could match you deal right now.

RDRickster
4th Aug 2004, 18:53
I have to agree... don't quit your day job, yet. Your salary should provide you enough income to feed your helicopter habit. Build your time slowly, but pay your mortgage and retain your financial stability. Get your PPL(H) in short order (fly 2-3 times a week until your ready for check ride), and then slowly build hours (2-3 times a month afterward). Keep looking for a flying job within law enforcement... eventually, you will find one and your skills and experience as a street cop will serve you well as a pilot.

Benjonat
5th Aug 2004, 02:36
DETFIVEO,

I have read your post, and the replies of those that follow, and can sympathise from where you are coming from. I am 37 years of age, married with 3 little ones and have been a police officer for 17 years. I have faced the same questions as you, and I am still trying to work out exactly where I should focus my direction. I hold Commercial Rotary & Fixed Wing licences, Fixed Wing Instructor rating, Instrument Rating (fixed wing) and have a Degree in Aviation Studies. I am also well paid, and can look forward to a government pension at age 55, so I have a few years left in the job. I have a number of friends who fly for a living and love every minute of it, although none of them enjoy the security of the position that I hold. I would love to fly for my own department, but the 1000 hour minimums that they require seem almost impossible to achieve without throwing away my job. I have decided that the only way it is going to happen is if I do something about if for myself, as lots of people can give you advice, but at the end of the day, you have to do what makes you happy. My Wife is extremely supportive of my goals and that is probably the most important factor in my decisions.

I am going to try and focus on gaining the next 260 hours that will qualify me for commencing a rotary Instructors Rating, and maybe start building those hours. Good luck with your decision, feel free to PM me as I am interested to hear how it all goes for you.

Benjonat

evod
5th Aug 2004, 09:34
Im a married pilot who has been in this game for 7yrs after leaving a government job of 12 yrs. My advice would be to get the pension then either thow your self into the helicopter game hammer and tong or do seasonal work to feed the heli drug habit . Reason being there is very little job security, pay is proportional to instability/risk (mostly) and even if you have support from the one who is to be loved a piece of string is only so long.

As a great man once said "use the force luke"

;)

SFHeliguy
19th Aug 2004, 17:01
I've been wrestling with this one for awhile. I've got a great career and make decent money. I fly commercial and private on the side when I can.

Bottom Line
=================
I've decided that having money and being able to fly is better than not having and being able to fly.

It's true that I have to give up some jobs that I'd love to do and would be a great experience. But at the same time, I'm not as worried that I'm going to be old and poor.

My 2 cents.

HeliMark
19th Aug 2004, 18:22
I would stay on the job. Find a better position that you like better. Keep that civil service retirement. I have 21 years on the department, and looking back, I do not know where it went. But if I wanted, I "could" retire and still have another 20+ years flying, with the knowledge of that retirement waiting for me. And if I somehow lost my medical, I still have a good paying job.

I was lucky and fly for my department. If your department has an aviation unit, try and get into it. Or transfer to another one that does and work your way to it (some departments will transfer your years to them for retirement consideration).

Otherwise, like several people I know, do your ratings, and fly on the side. A little hard work and after awhile you may have a job waiting for you. Satisfy that flying need with 10-20 hours a week on the side teaching or charters, and still get that retirement. Good chance you will be flying turbines in a short time. Remember, lots of employers like cops in responsible jobs:cool: .

Camp Freddie
10th Oct 2004, 14:46
do you fellow professional helicopter pilots fly a helicopter

1) to enrich your life?

or

2) to define your life?


when I started to fly it was absolutely the latter but as time went on it has shifted completely to the former.
I think that is the normal profile, but several people people I have met do not seem to have a sense of wanting to be paid properly for what they do, others seem to have an excessive interest in "4 gold bars" and being seen wearing them.
I can only assume they are stuck in 2) and have not made the normal transition to 1).

what do the panel think ? is this making sense or am I talking horse***t or what?

SASless
10th Oct 2004, 16:08
Too lazy to work...too fearful to steal....that kinda slims down the choices. One must pay the rent, child support and alimony, and eat.

Devil 49
10th Oct 2004, 19:02
Quoting someone comfortable in his own skin-
"I yam what I yam, and that's all what I yam."
Specific to the question: Some people paint; or write; or build ships in a bottle. I fly helicopters.

I like a challenge, but I'm not competitive. I don't care if somebody else can tiddle a wink more skillfully than I. How one tiddles the wink is another question, entirely- I'd find that fascinating.

I'll spend hours, days, or months on something I'm interested in learning how to do, or doing better. Chess, motorcycles, philosophy, astral navigation, photography- Average life expectancy of all hobbies other than flying- 6 months of fanatic interest. But flying has been a passion since childhood. The helicopter aspect was accidental- high school, flight school and Viet Nam. Like a lot of kids, I was afraid I'd miss the shooting. There ought to be a law- but I digress.

I've been gainfully employed at various periods in my life, and nearly always missed flying intensely. The only "job" I've ever had that was as fulfilling as flying- operating immense and expensive machines, making bits of other immense and expensive machines. That's done less expensively in third world countries now, or I might still be doing it. The money was pretty good, and it was dirty, loud and computerized- far more satisfying than sales.

Whirlybird
10th Oct 2004, 20:20
What do you mean: "To define your life"?

If I understood the question maybe I could answer it.

chopperman
10th Oct 2004, 21:01
To enrich my bank account and my pension fund.

Chopperman.

Letsby Avenue
10th Oct 2004, 21:28
Like SASless and Chopperman - To pay the mortgage and enhance the pension. I would quit tomorrow if I could (and I nearly can!) :ok:

Thomas coupling
11th Oct 2004, 09:59
If you can retire soony (letsby) from flying commercial helos, then you are either 59, or financially secure by other means!!

I see myself as a machine operator working in 3 dimensions :ouch:

Phoinix
11th Oct 2004, 10:05
Defenetly defining my life. Money is just a bonus, just to make a living out of flying. But, I know, i'm young and stupid... with a big mouth... that costed me 25% of my first salary, lost to a tehnician that was on the right place at the right time :D

Thomas coupling
11th Oct 2004, 14:36
I know an electrician who used to be a commercial pilot. Earns more, own boss and weather isn't a factor!!!

heedm
11th Oct 2004, 17:01
I think I know what you're asking, Freddie. At the start many have it as their sole goal to become a ######. Whether it's helicopter pilot, doctor, lawyer, baker, astronaut, etc. doesn't matter. They have a goal and reaching that goal is all that is pursued. Their pursuit is defining their life.

Others will have met enough goals or have balanced their lives sufficiently that the career or at least the attainment of their goal, is just another facet of their life that gives them added depth. Their pursuit is enriching their life.

You're implying that helicopter pilots must first define their life with the goal of hovering solo (or whatever milestone you choose as defining helicopter pilot) and thereafter will follow a "normal transition" to find that being a helicopter pilot is now enriching their life.

I think that happens often but is a narrow view of what would be seen across the industry as a whole. One could view the life enricher as someone who has a complex life and is not fully focused in being a helicopter pilot. The life definer gives 100% to helicopter pilotage and is perhaps the one you want in the front seat.

In the end, I don't think it matters. Whatever your reasons for being here, when flying give all that you have.

SMOUC
12th Oct 2004, 08:42
Cause I wanted too and now i cant do anything else.

havick
12th Oct 2004, 12:02
why not...........?

Blade Tape
26th Oct 2004, 17:31
I've applied to do my combined FAA/JAA CPL(H) course at Helicopter Adventures Inc in Florida. Just wondering if anyone could give me some information about the current CPL(H) worldwide job market situation and whether or not my age (early 40s) is likely to severely restrict my employment opportunities. A bit late to go for a career change I know but working as a heli pilot would be a long time ambition come true.

Grateful for any remarks and advice.

Cheers,
Geoff.

MK10
26th Oct 2004, 17:45
Geoff, i am also in my early 40,s taking the modular route,
i have got mainly positive feedback from within the industry,
tho you must look towards having 1500 hrs before many ops
will even interview you. i would budget for FI also, cause its the
best chance for building the hours you need to get that first cpl
job.once you have the hours and class 1 medical so what if you,re
wrong side of 40!!

Heliport
26th Oct 2004, 17:50
Here's a good place to start guys.

Click this link (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944).

leee
26th Oct 2004, 20:12
hi, i trained at HAI and found with the two year J1 visa thingy and a instructor rating you could find a job and get those hours, i moved up to canada ( conversion was fairly easy ) and found work, but they do like at least 1000 hours to get your foot in the door, i am now planning on going back to England but not alot of advice.
I agree with getting the IFR rating ( i wish i had done the mountain course as well ) as HAI tend to do it in the R22 so you can get some time there and its only a hop over to the robinson factory which always looks good on the old CV.

Hope this helps,PM me if you think i might be able to help you.

Cheers Lee...

Col
27th Oct 2004, 11:22
Geoff

I'm off to HAi soon too. When are you going?

I had the same question about hours - plus a load of others. You can structure the course to get you the required 50 min hours in the R22. You'll probably need a minimum of 200 hours to get an instructor job, which you'll probably have if you take the CFII route.

Leee

Did you need another visa to get into Canada? I'd be interested to hear how that worked out...

Cheers

Col

leee
30th Oct 2004, 01:01
Hi, yep you need a visa in canada, I moved here with my girlfriend ( who moved with the company she works for ) and they recognised comman-law spouse so her company sorted mine out, i was really lucky.
but i see lots of other ( to quote some folks i have worked with) "bloody forigniers who come over and steal our bloody jobs"
so its possible.

Cheers Lee...

Rupert S
2nd Jan 2005, 00:04
Having realised that there's little point in trying to get an ATPL (A) followed by a job I was wondering what the prospects are like for commercial rotary wing pilots in terms of gaining sponsorship and or getting a reasonable job (not instructing).

Thanks in advance

Rupert

automan
2nd Jan 2005, 04:17
Mr selfish you beat me to it !:ok:

Rupert S
2nd Jan 2005, 08:15
Sorry, I should know better. I've always been interested in rotary wing flying but as you can imagine the cost has always been an option.

On a side note, Mr Selfish, I found your user name quite amusing considering the nature of your post.

Whirlygig
2nd Jan 2005, 08:54
Now, now, guys. Rupert is a reasonably seasoned Ppruner but, as he tends to hang out in Private Flying where, as the name implies, they are not professionals but amatuers, he is probably not used to the level of imformation that IS available on Rotorheads.

Basically, Rupert, if you think the job market in fixed wing is bad, you ain't seen the rotary market - many are going the other way. In some job sectors, the rotary market lags behind fixed wing and the pay is NOWHERE near as good.

But yes, do a search please because chapter and verse on worldwide employment prospects are here. Essentially not much has changed in the last few years.

Cheers

Whirlygig

Whirlybird
2nd Jan 2005, 09:34
My friend Whirlygig beat me to it! Be nice to Rupe, guys, or.........................the Whirlies will get you!!!!!:eek:

Rupe,
Whirlygig tells it like it is. There is far LESS work around in rotary aviation. Having said that, there is a huge amount of info available here, both by doing a search, and from individuals. But if you ask general questions, without doing a search....well, as you'll have gathered, this lot aren't gentle and don't mince their words. :( It's just that there are so many questions on here like yours, and people get fed up with it. If you're seriously interested in rotary aviation as a career, read recent threads, do a search, then come back and ask anything else you need to know. But seriously, do NOT go into it looking for an easy option or one with plenty of employment prospects!! !

The Rotordog
2nd Jan 2005, 21:04
Don't say we didn't try to warn you. Your post should be a lesson to every pie-eyed dreamer who thinks he/she can get their ratings and then get a job and hit the big time.

Heh.

Whirlygig
2nd Jan 2005, 21:31
consider a PPL(H), do your 12 hours a year
...er, I thought it was two per type and an LPC?

Did you do integrated or modular? Some of us would be interested in your tales of woe since it is a path quite a few here are considering. Were your expectations too high? Or were you lead to believe that you would have work after qualification by your flight school? Did you train in a different country? Can you accept part-time work. Are you prepared to move around the country/globe?

Please tell us more and perhaps what you might have done differently. From my reading of past posts:-

1. Have a fall-back position; another job/income on which you can rely.
2. Don't get into debt for your training.

If you followed the above, then hopefully you just maintain your hours, I am sure the rotary job market will pick up but could be a few years off.

But, please don't get bitter.

Cheers

Whirlygig

Whirlygig
2nd Jan 2005, 22:13
leaving a grand a week job to fly for bugger all does not make sense
Who said anything about it making sense???

Cheers

Whirlygig

Camp Freddie
2nd Jan 2005, 22:20
Hey Mr Squirrel,

What research did you actually do before you set forth on your quest for the shiny licence ?

as far as the UK is concerned the most superficial meagre research will tell you that a 200 hour CPL(H) has no chance of work.
many many times on this board it has been stated that the low risk option is to build the cost of the additional hourbuilding and an instructor rating into your projections. i.e in your case 50 more hours to build plus the 30 hour course, then at least you have a good chance of becoming high time via flight instruction.

on the other hand if you are another of those guys who wants to straight to the "good stuff" without doing instructing because you consider it "crap " or " boring" then I have no sympathy.

I am suspicous of your research because you made that comment about "12 hours" to keep your rating current.

like whirlygig I am interested to find out the full story of how you found yourself where you are. will you tell us ?

regards

CF

4ero
3rd Jan 2005, 00:08
Rupert,

do you really want to do it?

be aware that you're choosing a very difficult route i know of ten times as many who have gone home with empty pockets and a useless licence rather than stay, fly and have a ball.

Basically the prospects are terrible.
The reward like nothing else.

Mr Selfish is quite unselfishly donating his time to point out you need to be dedicated.

The girls said the same thing but lots nicer.

here's how your prospects look. Which one of these do you reckon you can be?

:ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :{ :{ :{ :ouch:

:ok:

Simon853
3rd Jan 2005, 01:58
Greetings to all,

Yes, this is the usual wannabe enquiry, but I promise you I've scoured the whole forum for every tidbit of info before writing this post!

First a little background:
I'm currently 33 years old and have been fascinated by helicopters for the last 31 of them. Been around aircraft all my life (dad in RAF), have some PPL(A) training (15 hrs a few years back in Canada while working) and have reached a point where financially I can give up my hard earned home and follow my dream and re-train to fly.

It's taken me six months hard research and thinking to get to this point, I've done aptitude tests (scored highly), trial flight, spoken to folks from several UK and US training schools, and read everything I can find on the net. I'm well aware of the pitfalls of the industry, and that I'm going to need to budget a good deal more than the CPL money alone to give myself even the slightest chance of success.

So, here's what I currently plan on doing. Any insights as to what I might do differently to give myself a better chance are welcome. I've accumulated all the best advice and wisdom I could find but I still really don't have any clue as to whether I'm being realistic or whether my plans are naive pie in the sky material:

I aim to do the joint JAA/FAA course at Heli Adventures in Florida including the FAA CFI course, (I have a provisional booking for Sept '05.) Then instruct for the remaining year of the J1 visa (relocating nationally in US as required). During that time I'm going to get myself a single-engine turbine rating and self fund another 10 or 20 hours on it, or spend that money on a dual-turbine rating as well.

Upon return to the UK, I would fund a JAA CFI qualification and seek work here for another 1000 hours or so. All the qualifications and ratings at this point I can afford to do self-funded.

So, I'm hoping that by then I'd have taken 3 to 4 years since starting the CPL, have accrued 2000 hours and have at least an additional low-use turbine rating. (I really don't think I could stretch to an IR as well but I could if I tightened my belt somewhat as well as forgoing the JAA CFI, but then I'd loose the hours I could earn with it..)

Is this realistic? Would I at this point stand a reasonable chance of finding work? I'm seeing this as a no compromise life-changing journey and one that I'm prepared to follow anywhere around the world to do. (No dependents, lucky me.)

I'm well aware it's still a huge risk. I'm trying to mitigate against that by investing some of my equity from my vastly over-enflated Oxfordshire house value into rental property.

I understand that there's no certainties, but have I considered everything I should have and devised a workable plan? (And I could always go back to software if it didn't work out, I lost the medical, etc. I'd just have spent my house..)

Thanks for any and every piece of advice.

Si

No need to apologise Simon. Yours is one of the best wannabe posts for a long time. Nobody minds being asked questions by someone who's done some research of their own before asking.
Heliport

407 Driver
3rd Jan 2005, 02:19
As I recall, each and every one of us had 100 hours once.

I never received any promises of employment when I started training. The flight school merely quoted a price, and I paid them for instruction. End of story.

After that, I hit the streets, found a job (not flying) and worked hard to gain expereince and trust. For me, things fell into place and the rest is history.

If you think a job will be offered to you, or your sob story is going to get sympathy, it's simply not going to happen.

Get off your arse, hustle, display a positive attitude and MAKE it happen for yourself.

There ARE jobs out there , make sure you're the #1 applicant.

Whirlygig
3rd Jan 2005, 07:56
...hmm - v. similar plan to mine.

What you will have to remember is that you can never go back to Oxon.!!

At 1000 hours, you should start to be useful to employers so, if you can afford to self-fund up to UK JAA FI(R) and, initially work part-time as an instructor and part-time in software to build your sours, you should be OK. The job market could up and you'd be well-placed for any positions going.

Cheers

Whirlygig

Whirlygig
3rd Jan 2005, 08:07
FlyingSquirrel,

....aaaargggghhh ;)

I would really like to learn from others mistakes as I won't live long enough to make them all myself !

I can understand if you don't want to make it public but I would be grateful if you could PM me.

Cheers

Whirlygig

Whirlybird
3rd Jan 2005, 08:44
I enjoyed every minute of the exams and training

Then what is your problem? You have a well paid job, you did lots of flying and training which you enjoyed, and in the long run it might get you a new career or at least a part time job.

This is how I saw it. Having not thought beyond my PPL(H), when I got it I realised I had a straight choice. I could either do lots of helicopter flying because I loved it, and end up with a load of hours and nothing to show for it; or I could do lots of helicopter flying, take some exams, do a flying course which would teach me more and which I'd probably enjoy, and maybe get paid to fly in the long term. I did the latter, saved some more money, and decided to get the hours needed for the FI course by going off flying abroad - two flying holidays in the US and Russia. I had a whale of a time, and apart from the CPL ground exams and the FI course, I enjoyed every minute of it all. I'm not saying it was easy; actually I found it very tough. But I like challenges; who needs easy?

It's interesting, but I was often accused by others of not taking the whole thing seriously. Unlike many, I wasn't doing it as fast as possible; I flew when I wanted to, took breaks when I didn't. I treated it all as a hobby - since I enjoy learning new stuff about flying, why not? I said openly that I didn't care that much if I didn't get a job at the end of it. And so I made myself very unpopular in some circles...or was it that people were jealous at my happy-go-lucky attitude? Like the CFI, at a school I instructed at till recently, who openly accused me of taking the bread out of his mouth since I had another job to fall back on. Like, he didn't have a choice! :confused:

Not being the world's most confident person (a female disease I think :( ) I occasionally wondered if I'd got it all wrong. But now I'm damned sure I had it right! Though maybe, just maybe, I should learn to keep my mouth shut if I don't want to annoy people. :)

Basically, to all you wannabes out there, if you want to fly helicopters, fly helicopters. If you want to do the CPL, do it. But don't do it unless you're willing to do it for its own sake, and enjoy the path as much as the possible eventual goal.

And don't, absolutely don't, go into debt to do it!

Whirlybird
3rd Jan 2005, 08:54
Naive wannabe? No, not at all. It sounds to me like you've really thought this through.

The only thing I would suggest, if you haven't done it, is that you get a Class 1 medical before you start, just to make sure that you can. It would be a shame to do everything and find that you fail the Class 1 for some stupid reason you didn't know about and hadn't thought of, and believe me, it happens. :(

Other than that, sounds good. go for it, and good luck. :ok:

kissmysquirrel
3rd Jan 2005, 09:17
I concur. You sound as though you've done the homework, are aware there are no guarantees and the rotary job market is pants. I say go for it! Better to try and fail or succeed, than to never try and wonder for ever after?
A lot of us here asked ourselves very similar questions.
Good luck.

muse
3rd Jan 2005, 09:20
Hi Simon,

Long time listener, first time caller - usual story....! Just wanted to make contact with you, as I too am booked in to go to HAI in sept 05 for the JAA/FAA course.

Obviously there is not really any advice that I can give you, but just wanted to let you know that there are other people out there in the same situation as you. I am fully prepared to drop everything here to chase the dream, however as much as I plan, I can only forsee that I will end up penniless, with no job and no place to live. I do have things to fall back on, so this will be a calculated risk, but a risk nonetheless.....

What a wonderful world we live in!!!! Roll on September......

Steve76
3rd Jan 2005, 09:37
Dude,
Read 407 drivers post and get a grip.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
leaving a grand a week job to fly for bugger all does not make sense
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its a LIFESTYLE job and I really don't think you have the desire to follow it through.
Bugger spending the 15000 to do more flying. If you really want to fly then get your arse out to the places there are jobs. I have had to go from NZ to Aussie to Canada to chase the work.
God bless the Aussies and Canuks...

Take yourself to Africa if you can handle it. Don't become another instructor. Our industry doesn't need you. I don't need you...I am fed up with having to train low time pilots to think cause their instructor couldn't teach them how.

Other than all this: Take your 15K and go on a cruise or something else menial...

Vfrpilotpb
3rd Jan 2005, 10:25
Hey TFS,

I have some time's been chastised for being a little harsh on people, with my down to earth Northern CS,

But come on guy, get real, smell the coffee, or any other such cliche that may fit the bill, you mention that you were led to believe that JOBS were plentyfull, , do you not read anything, do you not listen to older more experienced Pilots, seems like you need a swift lesson in total world realism , you say you have a Grand a week, well if I was you I would keep the daytime job and carry on building hours and EXPERIENCE were you can.

No one in there right mind will give you a shiney new copter with 200hrs on yer ticket, would you if it was your shiney new piece of kit?


NOTHING in the world comes easy, otherwise we would all be on easy street,

You must keep pushin the wheel, when finally you are at the top of the hill, you can then take things easy, and look back on your hard won past!

Vfr

PS. if as you say you get your feet wet in the North Sea, go back to the day job!

Vfrpilotpb
3rd Jan 2005, 12:04
Hey Rupert,


Look at the thread from TFS headed up "Big Mistake" then perhaps you will see why some Pilots are just a little harsh with their comments!


Vfr

Camp Freddie
3rd Jan 2005, 13:25
and another thing, why the hell should an employer give a low timer a job straight off, whats in in for them apart from high risk !

in all other professions people work there way up, therefore it only seems appropriate to get lots of time on your R22 before moving to bigger machines, especially f you are being paid for it, doesnt it?

EVERY time in my experience a Jetranger engine got cooked, it was ALWAYS a low timer, I aint joking

regards

CF

alouette
3rd Jan 2005, 14:03
Hey you bum, Low timer and cooking engines.... well thats your opinion.

But I have seen enough high timers who should actually get kicked out of the industry for disobeying SOPs and cooking engines as well. Just a thought to heat the bloody debate.

Simon853
3rd Jan 2005, 16:19
Thanks for all the replies. Glad to hear I seem to be on the right track. The trouble I've found is that I just don't know how to guage advice I receive from training academies. (They're after my money after all...)

Whirlybird: Yep, I agree on the medical. I'm doing that later this month and aren't committing myself financially in any way until I (hopefully) get that.

Cheers,

Si

Thomas coupling
3rd Jan 2005, 16:44
Simon: what a breath of fresh air. You seem to have gone to considerable lengths to check out the industry before you apply. This alone will stand you in good stead.
You will be 36-37 by the time you offer your body to science:D

If you want a future in commercial helos then, there is an above average risk that you could end up doing mediocre work, like the odd part time charter, joy rides, etc. These pay mediocre salaries and the future would be hit and miss to say the least.
IF you are prepared for this (financially and emotionally) then there will be no bad surprises in store.
Alternatively, you are entering the bottom end of the industry for better quality jobs (with those quals). And judging by the level of research you have already completed, you seem to have the aptitude to get yourself ahead of most!

With no dependents, no financial difficulties.....go for it BIG TIME.

Happy New Year.

sandy helmet
3rd Jan 2005, 18:06
Just remember one thing - this industry is like a fishpot - those on the outside are tryng to get in and those that are in are trying to get out.

Keeps it going I guess.

Hueymeister
3rd Jan 2005, 19:18
Why not go the ATPL(A) route..there are more opportunities that way.

Thomas coupling
3rd Jan 2005, 19:26
Steve 76: beautifully said!

We should link this thread to the other current one about another wannabee seeking advice.

gyralupa
3rd Jan 2005, 22:27
FlyingSquirrel

As a wannabie ive been considering giving up my day job to take up helicopter flying as a career, is it really as difficult to find work afterwards as you seem to think, i may have to reconsider.

To all new qualified cpls can you fill us in on
How long did it take?
Full time or part time ?
where did you train ?
how much does it cost ?
who or where to avoid (pms will do on this one) :mad: !

i am specifically interested in the uk , but i am sure others would appreciate answers for their areas.

thanx

gyralupa

Thomas coupling
3rd Jan 2005, 23:24
Heliport, for christs sake please blend these fifty seven different wannabee helo driver threads into one. On their own they take up too much bandwidth:mad:
If another 'newbie' asks the same damn question WITHOUT USING THE SEARCH BUTTON...
I'm going to pi** in his petrol tank:*

skidkicker75
3rd Jan 2005, 23:44
T C

well as a fellow newbie, and that is in every sense, finding pprune has proven to be very useful, but as the newbie title would suggest we do not all know about the search facility, and as such sometimes like to ask a question that we feel is specific to us alone. There are quite a few people on pprune that have slated me for the posts i have put forward and to some replys that I have entered into.
IF YOU DONT LIKE THE QUESTION BEING ASKED DONT READ IT AND DONT WASTE YOUR TIME AND OURS BUY BEING RUDE AND UNHELPFUL.
I would like to think that in years to come when i make it in this industry that i can be as helpful and informative to others as some have been to me.

So T C when you see a post asking for newbie advice as a thread, do us all a favour and dont bother to look at it.

407 too
3rd Jan 2005, 23:53
something to think about -- what can you offer your employer that others cannot ?? (don't limit you hunt to commercial operators only, there are many corporate outfits)

can you (or are you willing to) help out with other duties in the office or corporate world, mail room, computers, accounting, any other stuff from you previous life (or in my case lives)

it is just not a matter of LOOKING for jobs, but selling your talent or talents anyway you can !!

flying might not be a full time job in this situation, but you would avoid the tedium (sp?) of hangar flying.

headsethair
4th Jan 2005, 01:20
You've got to understand that TC is a professional ass-kicker. He'll never make the Diplomatic Service, but his hip-shooting is mostly accurate. When he misses, he misses big style. But on this occasion, he's right : use the search facility BEFORE asking questions.

Gomer Pylot
4th Jan 2005, 04:11
I read many forums, covering many unrelated topics, and every one has a search box. Every one. Without exception. And without exception, newbies asking the same question that has been asked and answered hundreds of times, are scathed by the regulars.

If you're going to ask a question in a new forum, it always pays to search for your question, read the FAQs, and to read the archived threads before asking. This isn't limited to this forum, or to aviation forums in general. It's universal.

But no one does it. Just as no one seems to be able to use a general search engine such as Google. You can find just about anything you want to know by using Google, but it takes a little work, and some intelligence about using search terms. Practice helps a lot.

Gordy
4th Jan 2005, 05:54
Simon,
I can assure you that HAI will give you good advice and are not trying to just take your money. The philosophy was that they did not need to ruin their reputation to get just one student. Think about it --- it makes sense. You have thought it through well. Feel free to send me personal mail--- I was the chief instructor at HAI for 8 years, I can probably answer any questions you may have, and yes, I too was once in your situation, from the same part of the world too!!!!!
Aloha
Gordy

4ero
4th Jan 2005, 05:59
a bloke was asking me all sorts of questions about flying...

it went....

yeah i'd like to be a helicopter pilot and i've got $40k where do i start?

- How long have you wanted to fly?

I'm just looking for something other than roofing...

- so what would your ideal job be?

I have always wanted to be a fireman

- have you applied to the fire dept?

no

- well do that first and for :mad: sake don't give anyone that $40k



hopefully he'll be a fireman before too long...

Heliport
4th Jan 2005, 06:27
Check these links:

Training FAQ (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944)

Another naive wannabee asks advice (good example of how to do your own your research before asking questions) and CPL(H) - a Big Mistake :
Link here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157677)

And: Use the Search function - it works!


This thread now closed.

Heliport

bluestack
4th Jan 2005, 17:09
again, another newbie in the same postion as Simon and as despondant as some may sound, it is and has always been the only thing I want to do...worth the risk in my book and as Whirlygig says - I'm not getting into any debt with the risks involved..I also have researched most country offerings and the differences between hours required and the transition to coming back to JAA in the UK, and the only place that seems to fit is HAI..

So...question to Steve76 about working in Auz/Africa/CA..as I don't have the cash to do the instructor rating in the UK,what are the realistic chances of getting work abroad after JAA (UK) CPL anywhere/any role no hinderance, or is it pretty much a requirement to have the extra hours instructing gives, no matter where ?

I'm a coupla years younger than Simon so can save the extra pennies if required and put this on the back burner till I've got the lot - but you know how it is...after a year of looking at various angles - rarin' to get going..

Thanks for any advice...

Bluestack

Flugplatz
4th Jan 2005, 18:01
Simon,

Just one thing, if you are going to go initially by the FAA system then there is no such thing as a "turbine Rating" (a/c <12,000 lbs). You can however get a turbine transition , which can vary in length from approx 3-10 hours depending on a/c and when the owner/operator/check pilot thinks you are up to speed.

Good Luck!

Flug :8

hencloud
5th Jan 2005, 12:40
There have been a lot of good points made on this thread. I would like to add the following. If you have no wife, no children and plenty of money then go for it and completely dedicate your life to it, no half measures and you might end up doing the odd job here and there for small amounts of cash. Eventually you might be able to make a living out of it. Eventually! but it might be time to retire by the time you do.

There is one thing that has not been covered in the threads which actually might be the one deciding factor in whether you make it or not and that is politics. There is so much rediculous politics in this small industry.

You have to ask youself this question; would you put up with the following if you were thinking logically and without the rose tinted spectacles that most wannabees seem to wear?

Would you take a job or enter an industry where

1. There is no risk to the employer. He only pays you when you fly, if you fly. You have to work weekends for no additional pay.

2. Consequently there is no job security. If someone else better walks throught he door there is no loyalty, you are out.

3. In what other industry would you work all hours for nothing. Yes you might spend the whole weekend cleaning the hangar while it rains outside for nothing.

4. there is no pension, no benefits.

5. Flying is the best thing ever but with all the crap that goes with it I am surprised that anyone continues to fly.

My advice, stick with the money, do it as a hobby or you will only end up bitter and dissapointed.

It's a mugs game.

Simon853
5th Jan 2005, 20:19
In response to hencloud's comments: (and I was going to ask it anyway), but typically what do employers expect their instructors to do during downtime when there's no bookings? I know everyone tends to help out cleaning and in the office, etc. but is this expected 100% of downtime or just a courtesy people do if they want to keep their jobs? Do many schools allow their pilot's to work elsewhere, i.e. at other schools if they've no bookings at their own? (I know of one that doesn't, just wondering if it's a rule. But they pay a retaining salary anyway, so probably are allowed to.)

Are all employers really that mercenary? Does it get better as you gain experience or do the 5000 hour guys get treated as badly too?

Si

Simon10
5th Jan 2005, 21:59
I earned my PPL (H) back in 1997. My ambition was clear and my goal was to achieve a career as a helicopter pilot. I desperately wanted to turn my flying into a career cos I loved flying, I really loved aviation as a system. It very much fascinated me, and what else could I become that would put me in the middle of this fantastic system. However before continuing with the next stage of my training (CPL) I was offered employment within my other profession at the CAA. I got involved in very exciting projects within the aviation industry and had a fantastic opportunity working closely with operators, legislators, providers within the industry. Before I knew what happened time flew by and now eight years after achieving my PPL (H) I find myself working as a management consultant with descent salary, being well respected in my firm as well as with my clients (primarily CAA and other aviation related industries).

Still today, I think about flying almost everyday. Of course I keep my PPL (H) current and fly as often as I can (>12 hrs year) - which is too few hours unfortunately. I keep thinking and dreaming about flying especially when I drive home after work.

I’m not too old (30), I got the funds to do the full course but I’m not going too. Not because I don’t love flying, believe me I really do - but simply cos the incentives are too low for me to do anything other than what I do today.

I do enjoy doing what I do (consulting), I do like the people I work with, I enjoy being well paid (eih - who doesn’t!) - I don’t want to trade my current career away - I just want to fly helicopters more than I do now and preferably in a professional fashion. (Keep in mind me only being a simple PPL)

I do have a family, wife and two small kids which I care of tremendously. This is also something I will not be willing to jeopardise by pursuing any dream of mine. My helicopter pilot friend keeps telling me that I should be more selfish and go for it, but I can’t – my love to my family is by far much greater than my love for a dream.

By now, I have come to terms and accepted the fact that that I’m not going to become a professional helicopter pilot. This fact doesn’t make me less happy, It doesn’t sober me anymore. The only thing that’s really changed is that I now miss my dream of becoming a pro pilot.

Simon10

NickLappos
5th Jan 2005, 22:48
Simon,

We all face decisions like yours, and I admire your candor! Here is a guy who said it a bit earlier:

"He that hath wife and children hath given hostages to fortune; for they are impediments to great enterprises, either of virtue or mischief."

-Francis Bacon

Camp Freddie
5th Jan 2005, 23:28
Hey Simon,

good post, in my experience most wannabes (including me back in 1997 also) do some sort of evaluation of the costs involved to become a professional pilot and the likely return, the risk of failure etc.

nobody can really justify it to themselves let alone an accountant, as it simply makes no financial sense, I reckon I spent about £40,000 between 1997-2000, these days the same qualification i.e. PPL, CPL, FI(R) would cost about £60,000

however knowing the figures dont work, me and many others chose to continue anyway, I was going through a less happy time in my life then and although I also had family responsibilties, I didnt care about the risks, it was a lifestyle choice and I was going through a selfish phase in those days.

Luckily it all worked out and now the north sea salary really makes it worth it and flying the S76 is one of my original aspirations which I still enjoy it is a real pilots a/c, but the chances of it not working out are really high, you can easily end up messing around with robinsons for the rest of your life unless you make really big sacrifices.

In fact I think the chances of it not working out now are higher than they were in 1997, there are just so few jobs around now that actually pay a salary that justify the risk.

so as far as simon is concerned my heart tells me to go for it anyway, my head knows he is absolutely dead right !

regards

CF

B Sousa
6th Jan 2005, 12:43
Youngsters who cannot take their licenses and hop into the drivers seat of a new plush S-76(plug for Nick) sometimes get discouraged.
Personally I think one should look at the industry before dumping a big debt on ones life. If its what you want to do, so be it, but dont whine down the road as many here have laid it all out before that Helicopter Careers are not easy street.
Today, the best bet for building time is going the instructors route, if you dont have a rich uncle. It will get you up the ladder to your first turbine job and usually after 3-4 years you can call your own shots. The Instructor route also keeps your face in the books and gives you that head start towards an ATP. (Also stylish to have these days). Get a degree in their while your climbing that ladder, maybe even an A/P. We are talking at least a ten year, Im improving myself lifestyle. www.erau.com will give you an idea or two.
You can then fall into the rut of the grass is greener at another company and continue adding business cards to your stack of old ones until you are the old one who still cant retire. DONT let that happen. Some is luck, some is skill, some is being at the right place, but most is persistance. Dont be afraid to have the door close on you a few times. Just learn to put your foot in there a bit and make them close the door.
If you want to do this type of work, you cant be a whiner. Get your Nose in the wind and move forward.

hencloud
6th Jan 2005, 15:50
Very good post from Simon re continuing in consulting. If i could do it all again i would keep the cash and do something more rewarding. i dont mean the flying, that is very rewarding but if I worked as hard as i did to get my PPL and instructors in any other industry i would probably be a millionaire by now.

Also some people point to instructing as being the path to success. It simply isn't, even with an instructor rating you have to put up with the devil worshipping employers, crap pay and unsocial hours.

Bare this in mind, people like Simon are not lucky, they are sensible to have kept a grip on reality and maintained a career outside of aviation, this will bare fruit when he is 50 and has a pension, a decent house and a loving familly, these should not be underestimated.

Pursuance of a dream as crazy as a career flying helicopters can take that all away. That is why only the utterly selfish will truly succeed. Present company excluded of course.

Sorry to sound bitter but i have had some bad experiences and been stabbed in the back on several occassions. But these are real experiences and I am not alone so they should be taken into consideration before entering the dragons layer of helicopter flying.

This industry is not about flying helicopters it is about lying, cheating and being utterly selfish. If you are good at those things then you will succeed.

I used to look up to pilots, now I just feel slightly sorry for them.

Simon853
6th Jan 2005, 22:00
B Sousa: I take what you're saying about the longterm security, degree etc. I'm probably in a better situation than many considering retraining for CPL because I have a degree, have built up an ok pension thus far, and have the equity in my house to pay for the qualifications without getting into debt with a fair bit left over. (Ok so the private pension will be stunted a bit if I don't find someway to keep it up, but it's a start.)

However, all would not be lost because post CPL I could always go back to writing software (I work in very specialised military field) if I needed to and I'd have a good £40k left over to put back into a house. (I'll just have to live somewhere cheaper than I do now, or get somewhere smaller than I'm used to. And I'm also looking at joining up with my mum to invest that in rental property to provide a safety net.)

So, worst case is I take a couple of years to follow a dream and then go back to doing what I've spent a decade getting good at if it turns out I'm a bad instructor or no-one will give me any work. No real loss and I'd have had a nice foreign adventure to boot. (Plus there's even a good chance my current employer would take me back part time or on a contract basis.)

I guess the bottom line is, yes I would dearly like to make a career out of it, but I feel I'm well-placed to go back without having lost too much if I don't.

Camp Freddie: I know what you mean, my heart tells me to go for it, but my brain also tells me not to.

It's funny. So many people I talk to about this light up and say "you only live once, god if I had the chance to go back and even have a shot at becoming a professional heli pilot... go do it!" except pilots, who seem to say "you only life once, for god sake don't become a pilot"!! :D

Regards,

Si

Whirlybird
6th Jan 2005, 23:15
It's funny. So many people I talk to about this light up and say "you only live once, god if I had the chance to go back and even have a shot at becoming a professional heli pilot... go do it!" except pilots, who seem to say "you only life once, for god sake don't become a pilot"!!

Interesting, that. When I was wondering about spending a shedload of money to get my CPL, an old chap in his 70s, who hadn''t flown helicopters but had done most other things, said I should go for it, because "You never regret the things you've done, only those you haven't". Seems maybe he was wrong, if this lot are to be believed. But I don't think so, on reflection. There's a difference between regretting that you didn't try something, and realising maybe you made a mistake. The first is worse. Someone once said that the two saddest words in the English language were "if only".

You haven't got that much to lose, so go for it. And contrary to what everyone on here seems to think, money isn't everything, for everyone.

Simon853
6th Jan 2005, 23:23
Thanks Whirlybird, you've talked me into it. So if it doesn't work out I'll blame you forever! :O

Si

The Rotordog
7th Jan 2005, 04:30
Whirlybird:When I was wondering about spending a shedload of money to get my CPL, an old chap in his 70s, who hadn''t flown helicopters but had done most other things, said I should go for it, because "You never regret the things you've done, only those you haven't". You know, there's probably a gazillion old codgers out there and ALL of them are full of advice. Meet enough of them and sooner or later one will say something pithy and clever, or he'll say something you want to hear. Then you'll latch onto that statement like a mantra, using it to justify everything you do from that point on.

Mine?

"Never complain,
Never explain."
-Henry Ford

Just live your lives, okay? If you want to fly, FLY! Don't agonize over it, don't wring your hands endlessly in worry, and don't go on obviously-biased helicopter message boards seeking reassurance and validation of your wacky, illogical dreams.

You think you're going to get an objective viewpoint here? The old-timers who say raise the realistic and sometimes very negative aspects of flying for a living are shouted down and contradicted by the enthusiastic wannabes (like both Whirly's but there are others) who, at the very start of their nascent careers- not all that far from day-one, deem it eminently worthwhile.

Just live your lives! No matter what you're doing in life, no matter where you are, enjoy it...make the best of it. And if you're *not* enjoying it, change it! Wake up each day feeling lucky to be alive. Dont' just walk through life on autopilot, make each and every day count. It takes effort, but in the long run that effort is worth it. Have fun! Laugh! Do not be the type of person who looks back with regret at things he/she might or might not have done. Do not even by the type of person who thinks he might look back and regret things. Screw that!

Life is too short. Way too short. I've done the commercial pilot thing for many, many years. I've spent too many Thanksgivings, Christmases, other holidays and just time in general away from my family. I've spent years in flying jobs that paid terribly, shortchanging my family in the selfish pursuit of *MY* dream (maybe hencloud is right!). I could, I suppose, look back on that with regret. But I will not. Right or wrong, I made those decisions and I will live with the consequences like an adult. I'm making things right now, and on my deathbed (which hopefully will not be soon) I will regret nothing.

And neither should you.

Whirlygig
7th Jan 2005, 06:18
Rotordog,

Just a few points.

1. Whirlybird is not a wannabee - shes is an "is".
2. Neither of us have contradicted anything that the older, experienced pilots have said - all comments have been taken on board and inwardly digested.
3. Neither have I spent any time on this forum hand-wringing or agonizing about the decision.

The problem is that we come from a different perspective - you say "Life is too short". Spot on - we agree there. However, I don't have a family; therefore quality family time at Christmas means Sweet FA to me. I have a job with a high salary and it no longer means anything to me. All that happens is that I buy stuff and it's just stuff. I don't need it.

One of your points is about "if you're not enjoying your life - change it". Again, absolutely spot on!

Life's goals and priorities change and one should change with that.

So you see, I think ultimately, we agree.

Cheers

Whirlygig

Whirlybird
7th Jan 2005, 08:37
Rotordog,

To add one other small point ot Whirlygig's very valid comments...

I raised many of the negative aspects of flying for a living in my earlier posts; if you'd read them you'd see that. I went into this with my eyes open. I decided to keep on my current work, which is freelance and flexible. I decided to get the helicopter qualifications because I wanted to; I had the money and wasn't going to go into debt. I decided I wouldn't give up anything I had except some inherited savings, and would instruct parttime unless I was made a helicopter job related offer I couldn't refuse. And yes, I'm at the start. And yes, it's tough. And I don't have much work, and barely cover expenses. And I had to find my own students at the first school I was at, and the CFI hated my guts and let me know it at every opportunity...mainly because I'd had the sense to keep on another job and he hadn't and he was jealous. And it's got me nowhere in the normally accepted world view of success, and I know it. And I have no regrets whatsoever. Because I don't care that much about money and big houses and fast cars and so on, and I have no family so can do what I damn well please.

Right, is that clear? If you'd read any of my posts, you'd know all that. I'm a pretty prolific poster; I virtually live my life on PPRuNe. :( So criticise me if you like, but do it accurately, and DON'T CALL ME AN OVER-ENTHUSIASTIC WANNABE WHO DOESN'T TELL IT LIKE IT IS!!!!!!!!

B Sousa
7th Jan 2005, 11:07
Rotordog made a point that lots of folks miss. that is "Life is short, so very short".
You have to weigh what you want to do along with whats going to be there at the other end if you want to someday retire.
I can get into these threads knowing Im covered. I have been flying for 35 years without a miss, BUT most of those years flying was secondary to my occupation. That allowed me to retire at 52 and then pursue flying as a new occupation or a good way to make Beer money. Many of my friends from my previous occupation have no hobbies etc. and quite frankly sit around waiting to be recycled. I have had some fun years and made money flying and still do so. It also allows me the freedom to say no to conditions that many youngsters who depend on flying would have to sheepishly accept. I see it all the time. Questionable Maintenance, Marginal Weather etc., and yes I have seen more than my share of these guys buy the farm...
So with Life so short, give things a good thought, but do remember the other end as it comes very quickly.....

autosync
7th Jan 2005, 11:57
Sounds like an awful lot of money and time to spend with no guarantees or even bright lights at the end of the tunnel,
and far to much soul searching/ philosophizing and self justification to bother getting in to commercially.

Whirlybird
7th Jan 2005, 12:06
Bert, that's a very good point, but it can be taken in many ways. Since life is short, one might say, let's live it to the full, and do what we really want to do. Who wants to end up at 70, comfortably off, but looking back and saying, "If only I'd become a helicopter pilot; that was what I always wanted to do". On the other hand, you and others present the other side - desperate for work, no security, no pension, long after the novelty of flying has worn off.

It's a difficult one, and there is no easy answer, and no way is right for everyone. The sensible option, as you say, is probably to make sure you don't burn all your boats or bridges. You made sure you could retire early and then fly. I kept on the day job, albeit parttime. I don't know about you, but I'll never be rich, but I won't starve either...and I can tell CFIs who hate my guts to go to hell. ;)

I see people who won't do anything remotely dangerous, who never take a risk, who worry about their pension funds at age 20, who stick in the same old job because it has good prospects even though it bores them silly. I have friends my own age who count the years and days to retirement. Most of my extended family are like that - they look at me in amazement...but do I see envy in their eyes too. I'm the black sheep...but do they really want to be like me?

You need to consider the future, I agree. But who wants to die without ever having lived?

diethelm
7th Jan 2005, 15:41
I hate to sound too cynical but life is suppose to be tough, grueling, unfair, depressing, hard, full of conflicts, biased, corrupt, non-sensical................etc.......etc.......etc........and the sense of accomplishment you generate as you work your way through all that BS is what makes it fun.

B Sousa
8th Jan 2005, 11:06
Whirlybird
Maybe I missed it, but what Im saying based on what I am doing is live a little within your means but also plan ahead within your means. I have sacraficed a bit to do one thing but not so much as it would risk the other. One does not have to go all out to live life, but you also cannot responsibly go balls to the wall because it feels good. If your filthy rich, then I would say who cares, but most of us here are not, so its a matter of how much fun can I have and still survive........I think Im doin OK...thats what counts for me.

Whirlybird
8th Jan 2005, 14:34
BS,
Yep, I'd agree with all that. Sounds like we're saying pretty much the same thing. :ok: The only thing is, people differ as to how much living versus planning they think is sensible. Many people think I overdo the living bit; me, I think I'm pretty cautious actually. Like I said, there are no rules; everyone has to work it out for themselves...hmm, I think I'm starting to repeat myself here. :(

Old Skool
9th Jan 2005, 23:51
when i first looked into flying helicopters i was told 'don't do it' i ignored this advice and later spoke to this chap, he told me if i had been put off by one person simply saying not to do it, then i wouldn't make it.

a word of caution for the guys coming to HAI in september,

a problem i had was with the cost of living, the figures they quote are not realistic. lots of people run very short of money (some run out) towards the end of the training and put this down to living costs being much higher than quoted. When adding up the figures add at least 50%-70% to the living costs.


:ok:

chopperchav
18th Feb 2005, 21:02
I currently work in the financial markets in London and without wanting to sound arrogant have had a fairly good run over the last ten years. However my job is starting to bore me to tears.

I presently own and fly a raven 2 and cant get enough of it. Consequently I spend all day at work daydreaming about flying for a living (helicopters or bizjets) and it is starting to do my head in.

Is there anyone out there who has been in a similar position and made the break into the world of aviation. If so can you can share your experiences. Have you regreted it or was it the best decision you ever made?

VeeAny
18th Feb 2005, 21:13
I changed jobs from highly paid, owning a couple of helicopters to lowly paid flying for a living.

Best piece of advice anyone gave me was stay in the day job and fly for fun.

I ignored him and continue to do so, however if you change jobs be prepared to make little or no money compared to what you do now.

Yes it's fun, but be prepared to deal with some complete muppets and maybe even work for them!

I love what I do in the helicopter world, still have to dabble in the old job every now and again to pay the bills.

Forgive my cynicism, I am not trying to put you off your dream, just point out that if the money is good elsewhere, that sometimes you can do worse than grin and bear it. What about part-time half trading / half flying.

V.

davehearn
18th Feb 2005, 23:21
fly for fun i tell you whar gaz youve hit the nail on the head.
youll never make any money running a heli company, fly for fun, use youre job to pay for your fun, ive spent 1000s on having fun,but i love being around helis. gaz, you have a charmed life , i wish i was there.
regars dave

paco
19th Feb 2005, 04:29
Veeany sums it up - doing any job professionally is a whole different ball game than doing it for fun - I'm sure photographers can tell the same story!

My advice would be to get a PPL at least and get it out of your system.

Phil

VTA
19th Feb 2005, 06:41
FLY FOR FUN.....ITS THAT SIMPLE......If I could do something part time (however boring) that would put food on the table for my family, pay the bills, have a half decent quality of life and fly for fun!!!! I would swap in an instant....GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE....

Helibelly
19th Feb 2005, 06:46
Yes flying for a living can be fun, but like any job it can also be very boring. If you've got the cash do your flying for pleasure not as a way to watch your overdraft increase your car get older! Spend your well earned dosh on a nice aerobatic thing and do the competitions, buy into a nice twin and go touring, see europe without all the hanging around in depature lounges, but a helicopter and enjoy the freedom of hovering and landing in your back garden, but under no cicumstances try to make money out of aviation, as the joke goes, how do make a million in aviation, invest ten million....

STANDTO
19th Feb 2005, 08:18
They are right, you know. I was going to jack it all in to do my ATPL, but saw sense. I would imagine I am taking home about a quarter of what you do a month.

Why not go and see a lifestyle guru, to see if there is a better balance to be struck, along the lines of less work/more flying/same money? How about working somewhere where you can fly to work? How good would that be. One of our local millionaires commutes almost daily in his 109 from the north of the Island to the UK.

You, as I, are a lucky man. Unfulfilled perhaps, but lucky.

STANDTO

verticalhold
19th Feb 2005, 09:53
I worked in the city as well until the flying bug became incurable,
20 years later I don't regret the move, but I will never again have the lifestyle I enjoyed. Stay where you are, fly for fun and make the rest of us jealous. Believe me, Trying to tell the pax that you can't land at their house due to the fog, staying away from the ice at this time of year and surviving the half wits who think a helicopter can land anywhere despite your explanations about rules, performance and fuel just becomes plain hard work. I often wonder why we accept such low status and pay when we are very much the exposed part of aviation. :cool:

19th Feb 2005, 12:01
STAY WHERE YOU ARE. I made the transition 16 years ago to operate them and I've had some amzing times with good people who all love the business (you have to like it to even contemplate staying in it), but I've also seen how sick the aviation industry is overall, of course including heli ops. In 10 years you might as well be driving a bus except you get all the regulation and expense that goes with running the space shuttle.


If I could do it all over, I would definitely have just continued doing it for fun and enjoyed my life. From an operator standpoint it is so true....how do you make a small fortune.....start with a large one. If you've got the bug, buy another heli with a lease back arrangement and fly when you want to, and that way you can at least keep good food and wine on the table.

My 2p worth.

The Rotordog
19th Feb 2005, 13:04
There are two issues:

1. Wannabes from other careers always look at the positives of flying for a living and never, ever look realistically at the bad points. Oh, they *say* they do, but they don't. It's just human nature to accentuate the positive. And there is a huge, multi-faceted downside to commercial flying. Much of it has been discussed here before - the low pay, the time away from home, the very early and late hours, the lack of benefits, the pressure to fly, the maintenance issues...just to name a few.

And that's not even taking into consideration the challenges of flying the helicopter! Most pilots egotistically think that they can handle any situation thrown at them or task that is asked of them. Wrong! The accident reports are chock-full of instances where the pilot's skill was not up to the ability required. It's not just about moving the controls and knowing *how* to do a confined-area approach, say. A monkey can be taught the procedure.

But what do you do when you get to a site landing and you're circling overhead, lump in your throat, trying to figure out a safe way *in* to this ridiculously tight place that the customer says we've landed at "plenty of times with that other pilot," and you haven't even begun to consider that you won't even be able to depart with the load you've got on right now because your brain at this point can't think that far ahead... And so you get it on the ground without bending it, your passengers all depart, leaving you alone with the bird to fend for yourself, and as the engine cools down you begin to look around at what you've just gotten yourself into and you realize that your departure out of this Godforsaken hover-hole will be after dark and you go, "Oh, ****..."

And that's just *one* scenario. Yet one that I've been faced with numerous times in my career. Oh yes, I've been there.

Flying is not all black-and-white decisions. It's nice to sit in our computer chairs and pontificate that all cockpit decisions are easy. They are not. And sometimes the decisions we make require incredible knowledge, experience and skill. Is this a "downside" to flying for a living? Perhaps not, although it is something that must be taken into consideration - in a broad sense, sometimes the things that are asked of you will make you very, VERY uncomfortable, and that's not a good place to be. Especially when your life (and that of your passengers) is on the line.

2. The other thing that career-switchers don't acknowledge is that if you're bored in one field, you'll likely be bored in another. There is no magic career-pill that will make your life fulfilling and exciting. For sure, flying for a living can be viscerally thrilling. It is a combination of technical and artistic demands that challenge and reward both sides of the brain. But make no mistake, at the end of the day it is just a JOB. Yes, I love the feeling of watching the world drop away as I pull pitch. No, I don't love the bull**** that goes along with the job anymore. It gets friggin' old.

I always say: If you want to fly, fly! Don't come on here asking for justification or rationalization, or reasons pro or con for there are none. (Or at least a "pro" for me might not be so for you - something helicopter pilots seem to forget.) We who do it for a living are all a little bit crazy. We have to be. We know that the decision to pursue this as a career is not a logical, sane one. It is fraught with peril and uncertainty and there are no guarantees. But for most of us there was no choice. Most of us didn't sit down, all calmly and seriously analytical, weighing the advantages and disadvantages of our possible career choices. We fly because...well, just because. If we thought about it too much we probably wouldn't.

And if you have to think about it too much, you probably shouldn't.

paco
19th Feb 2005, 15:45
Well said, rotordog, and you've just given a good description of the elements of Captaincy, which is now what you need on top of airmanship (discussed in another thread somewhere)

Phil

helicopter-redeye
19th Feb 2005, 18:31
1. Posted 22:20hrs Friday evening. Get a better wine merchant.

2. The entry gate for commercial flying are the CPL/ ATPL exams. From the City, book in with London Guildhall and take the 14 (or 9) exams as a DL course and see if you still find flying interesting after a hard days work followed by a hard evenings studying Gen Nav & Flight Planning.

3. Then take the CPL(H) course and GFT and see if an instructor knocks off some rough corners in your flying.

4. Then try it out flying connercial missions at weekends to see if it is interesting. Probably like bus driving.

5. Then put together a business plan to either fly commercially as a career or set up a company to do so. If the numbers do not stack up, reject plan and continue as before having lost nothing but some drinking time you spent learning to fly better and safer (the CPL/ ATPL - delete as applicable).

6. Most jobs are boring. Some pay better and allow you to spend you time more wisely. Consider all actions wisely before reacting. Think also of what you may do in 20 years time, not just in 2005 (may be a nice career for later in life having secured the pile, etc) Grass always greener in next field, etc etc etc ...



NB Nice day for flying today. Sheffield to the Isle of Wight and back. 3 away landings incl a confined area helipad (thanks Muffin). Ho hum, must go and think about work on Monday now ...

h-r

ATPMBA
19th Feb 2005, 20:44
No one on their deathbed wished they spent more time at the office.


Don't lose your dream.
:cool:

DBChopper
20th Feb 2005, 09:31
Helicopter Redeye:

Great post, and the best advice I have seen on here in ages.

Chopperchav:

You've got the helicopter (and a very nice one, if it's the one I'm thinking of that I was drooling over yesterday... :ok: ), so why not give the commercial licence a run? As Redeye says, at the worst you'll decide you don't want to fly for a living, you'll still be enjoying your Raven II and your flying will have improved significantly.

Go for it!

DBChopper

chopperchav
20th Feb 2005, 21:58
Thanks for the good advice guys. Great observational skills Mr Redeye, you spotted what a sad man I am with nothing better to do on a Friday night.
Dont get me wrong, I'm not some city toff who has just bought himself a new toy and developed some soon to pass romantic notion of flying for a living. I have been fascinated with flying for as long as I can remember and if I didnt have the eye-sight of Mr Magoo, would of probably worked my way up through the business the hard way. Now thanks to the wonders of laser surgery I can get a class 1 medical and fulfill a dream.
The purpose of this post was just to hear experiences of people who have made a late career change to flying and how they have got on. I will try and plod on in the city for a few more years and get this flying thing out of my system. I have a feeling I wont though so maybe I can contribute something to the industry in the future and try not to blow the kids inheritance in the process. Anyway, surely Mr Bristow has made a few quid from helicopters.

paco
21st Feb 2005, 06:02
Mr Bristow certainly has made a few quid from helicopters, but that wasn't from flying them! You obviously have some business acumen from surviving in the city for so long, so why not start a helicopter company? You can't do any worse than some of the bozos who do, and crash spectacularly around a year later.

Phil

Whirlygig
21st Feb 2005, 06:35
Chav,

Just a little aside and I don't want to rain on your parade but have you got the medical? It's just that I know someone (admittedly a couple of years ago) who had a Class1 initially declined because they had laser surgery on their eyes. They had to battle with the CAA and get all sorts of specialist opinions before it was granted.

Please check with them first what their stance is on laser surgery now.

Cheers

Whirlygig

chopperchav
21st Feb 2005, 07:42
Paco, I'm reading your book on operational flying so I can blame you if it all goes pear-shaped.:O

paco
21st Feb 2005, 08:05
is that the airlife one? They missed a lot out of the original manuscript, so I took over publication myself - pm me your address and I will send you the one I did

I know Nigel at EMH picked up a few points from the original, so good luck!

Phil

helidecks
26th Feb 2005, 18:07
Hope you chaps can help out someone who wants to start a career with a challenge to it rather than fly fixed wings like all my mates!

Wonder if the fellow ppruners on this site can advice so that I go in with my eyes open instead of blindly checking out the web sites and spending a fortune on books, training to find at the end I am not up to scratch!

Is it better to go and have private lessons to learn to fly or try and join one of these training courses and get on a sponsorship programme if I can.

Realistically if I get through everything what is there at the end of it jobs etc without going into the military?

If I get through and then loose my medical are there a lot of opportunities that you can still use what you have gained in a ground position/office or they limited?

Ideally I would love to go for Crash Investigation at the end of it all, is this a possibility and do you still keep current if the Department or a relevant company takes you on?

Sorry for all the questions but before I mortgage my life and soul I want to know if it is worth going into at the end of the day with a sound career at the end of the hard slog.

Mainly cos all my friends, being fixed wing laugh at me wanting to go in this direction!

Thanks

Heliport
26th Feb 2005, 18:42
Your questions have been asked many times.

Start by clicking here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944).

The Search facility will bring up other threads.

Heliport

The Rotordog
27th Feb 2005, 01:32
I love this bit:Hope you chaps can help out someone who wants to start a career with a challenge to it rather than fly fixed wings like all my mates!Oh yeah, fixed-wing are a snap! No challenge at all. Pish-posh, piece of cake. Why would anyone even bother!

First thing you need is an attitude adjustment, boy. The challenges in helicopters are merely different; you perceive them as "better." No wonder your fixed-wing friends laugh at you- they don't even bother to do it behind your back.

Nobody can tell you if it's "worth" it. In fact, it's a silly question which only *you* can answer. Do your homework about the aviation industry. If you like helicopters, then pursue helicopters. But if you like helicopters simply because you think that mastering this challenge makes you better than any other type of pilot, well, you'll be laughed at by more than just your fixed-wing friends.

Lightning_Boy
27th Feb 2005, 04:48
Rotordog, I understand you getting pi**ed off with youngsters posting on rotorheads with questions like "Is it worth it" or what would you do in my situation" but I also think these newbies should be cut a little slack. Unfortunatley the wannabes forum is all about fixed wing training and rotorheads is the only one to deal with helicopters, so where else are they supposed to go? Some people joining for the first time dont even know there's a search function on pprune. If you dont want to read their questions, don't click on them.

Helidecks, as heliport say's click on the search link and type in what sort of information your looking for. There have been loads on helo wannabes asking these sorts of questions and some of your questions could be answered there.
Don't be put off, were a nicer bunch than them plank drivers, honest!!!
;)

rotorboy
27th Feb 2005, 06:05
hmmmm man its hard.. but I have only had 2 beers and I am gonna behave...

as heliport said check the old threads..do some home work, search the web, go to the airport talk with a pilot (what a concept), then come back I will personally answer specfic non previously discussess/ addressed questions...


good luck

The kinder, gentler
RB

see whirly I went to sensitivity training

Whirlygig
27th Feb 2005, 08:09
...haven't you just! Perhaps beer is good for your touchy/feely nature.

Now, for your next lesson, I would like you to find a nice tree and give it a big hug. Feel the loving spirit of the earth course through you!

....you're not PPrune Fan #1 are you?

Anyway, helidecks - last week there was a thread on here from a chap with fixed/rotary dilemma etc. I posted several links to past threads on there but I now think it has been deleted. But if you go to Search and just search Rotorheads forum - type in rotary / heli/ jobs/ career you'll end up with enough material to keep you occupied for the next week. Some of it is old info written in a different economic climate but you'll get the gist.

Cheers

Whirlygig

Whirlybird
27th Feb 2005, 09:51
helidecks,

Wanting to go in with your eyes open is good.:ok: However, you need to look at all this slightly differently.

As everyone has said, do a search, but also read all the recent threads relating to helicopter flying as a career. If you do that, I think you'll find that the general concensus is that helicopter flying is hard work, with little or no security, and that many of the jobs are dirty, dangerous, and often monotonous. You'll also find that people only put up with them because they love flying helicopters, and/or because by now they can't do anything else.

So, why do you think you want to do this? Have you ever flown a helicopter, or do you just look at them and think they look cool? If you haven't done so, go for a trial lesson and make sure you actually like it. Yes, it's a challenge, but so is any kind of flying, as The Rotordog says...don't mind him by the way; his bark is worse than his bite. :) And the trouble with being hooked on challenges is, once you've mastered one thing, you just want more. Suppose you end up as a heli pilot doing pipeline work, or flying to North Sea oil rigs, or Traffic Watch in LA...it's not very challenging after a bit. I have friends on the North Sea; they tell me landing on one oil rig is much like another...most of the time you're like an airline pilot without the comfort and glamour and uniform and pretty young flight attendants. You have to WANT to fly helicopters, aside from all the other stuff. And to hell with your friends; you're doing this, or not doing it, for YOU!!!

So digest that lot, do some reading on here, and have a good think about what you really want from life. THEN come back on here with any further questions, and I guarantee you'll find the best advice ever on the helicopter industry is to be had from some really wonderful people...even if some of them hide it well. :)

Good luck whatever you do.

SASless
27th Feb 2005, 11:48
I would suggest a long dialogue with Flying Lawyer, find out how to be successful in the legal profession.....and buy your own helicopter upon becoming a successful lawyer....or accountant...or CEO of a business...or bank robber....or operator of a bawdy house......anything but becoming a helicopter pilot working for wages.:{

blithe
27th Feb 2005, 20:27
I suggest the moderator puts a 'sticky' on the forum with entitled "Training Advice. Read this before posting"

SASless. It sounds like you need a new career. You could make way for the 1,000 or so people who would be grateful for your job.

Heliport
27th Feb 2005, 21:06
blithe

As a very new member, you may not know that SASless is one of the most experienced pilots on this forum. I don't think he's ready to hang up his headset just yet.

Heliport

helidecks
28th Feb 2005, 09:43
Thanks for everyone who has taken the time to reply, greatly appreciated!

Heliport thanks for the links I should have done a search but new on here and did not realise there was the facility!

The Rotordog - sorry if I upset ,but everyone starts somewhere in their life ambition, I hold a PPL and decided that fixed is not for me just flying jets from a-b and thought the challenge of flying a machine that has alot of versatility was the way to go. I may be wrong but at least I would like to have a stab.

So first things first I will sit and do alot of reading and then hopefully will let you guys know

Cheers!

:ok:

Simon853
28th Feb 2005, 21:05
Helidecks,
I guess I'm a bit further down the decision path than you are. My house goes on the market next week to fund my training in the US this Autumn. (Guess I got to learn to say Fall instead..)

Like you I had a heck of a lot of people tell me not to consider it. It's dangerous, it pays bad, management treat you like a dog-egg, etc. Well, that pretty much sums up most jobs in the corporate world these days where most managers care more about shareholders than staff, profits than investment. And as for danger, well commuting down the M40 every day on a motorcycle has that adequately covered.

I also spoke to a lot of people who saw the same hunger in me to fly these odd contraptions as they have/had themselves. Once people understand that you've got past the "wouldn't it be great to fly..." rose-tinted view they suddenly become a lot more helpful and encouraging.

But, to those who still tell me not to do it, I say sod 'em. For I believe that stubborness and selfishness are also worthy virtues of a pilot!

At the end of the day, I will have a career to fall back on while I'm waiting for my first break, or if things don't work out, I loose the medical, etc. At the end of the day, it'll only have cost me as much as a luxury car. And I know what I much rather do with my money...

Si

ralfm
30th Mar 2005, 21:06
Hi I've just started my PPL(H) and would appreciate any advice on career prospects assuming I complete the CPL and instructors courses. If I worked the first few years instructing and flying charters to build up my hours / experience what kind of jobs could I aim for? What is the pay like? Will I ever be able to pay off my debt?

Auscan
30th Mar 2005, 22:57
You probably should have asked those questions before you started. Sounds like a good plan though. Best of luck .

Camp Freddie
30th Mar 2005, 23:14
Hey Man have a read of this first then ask the questions

Frequently Asked Questions : Training and Job Prospects (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944)

I managed to get a proper well paid helicopter flying job that I consider a career in the end, but it was way harder than I expected it to be, spent far more money than expected, far more luck was involved than I expected, and enormous amounts of messing about being pissed about by amateurish, egotistical idiots along the way.

but if its a real passion why not have a bash !! you only have your marriage, kids, house, nice cars, holidays, leisure time amd all your money to lose (but thats worst case) it will be better than that I should think, probably

Having said that, I am really happy with my job now and am really glad I changed careers, its just the process that is a bit tough sometimes.

regards

CF

autosync
30th Mar 2005, 23:21
Prospects = Crap
Pay = Crap
Ever able pay off your debt? = Nope, probably not.

Still want to do it?

rotorboy
31st Mar 2005, 01:03
They pay people to do this? Man I am hanging out with the worng crowd.


RB

dammyneckhurts
31st Mar 2005, 05:08
Ralfm:

It all depends on what you want to get out of it. Do you want to be home every night with the wife and kids, or are you happy working away from home 14 to 20 days a month.....

There are definatly good jobs to be had in the industry, you just have to be better then 90% of the other guys out there. By better I mean having the attitude and the mind set that works best for whatever segment of the industry you get into. (having good hands helps too)

As to what kind of jobs you could get.....well, the answer is you can have any job you want. You just need a plan, the attitude and the skills to make it happen.

Money....well, after 10 years....anywhere from 85 to 140k (assuming you are a "make it happen kinda guy"

Start paying attention to people that "have made it" in their chosen profession, other than flying I mean. Try and get a feel for what personality traits they have that make them successful.
How do they deal with other people...conflicts, pressure, decision making, confidence, honesty, organizational skills, dependability, leadership, motivation, etc....

These are all traits you need to master as well as being able to fly of course!

fluffy5
31st Mar 2005, 13:41
How many times have I heard this question.
Well lets start back to numerical points......
1.If you have a girlfriend or just about to be married fend them off with a stick,because they won't appreciate the time away from home or the lack of any real cash for 5 years.

2.After 5 years u may have huge depts,and a trickle of cash coming in,no bmw anymore sold it and recognise the instructor who has the push bike outside and lives in a caravan on a cold grass airfield.

3.Any one hands up to the amount of people u know who started out and have fallen by the way side.I will answer loads,run out of cash,loss of medical, to dimmy and not enough determination to pass the atpls and in general ones that just run out of steam lose interest as it takes such a long and hard road to get that decent salaried position.

4.The amount of cowboys in the industry parading about with tales of how much money u can make once your cpl or the commercial way of flying 206 for weddings or horsey races will sustain you financially.this will turn out like point 2.

5.is for fluffy ?...
Thats right people / training providers will paint a warm fluffy easy industry to progress earn lots off cash.
Thats because they want your cash to sustain there ever dept generating companies.If your smart go to companies house take 5 of the top training providers look at there profit and loss and see that 4 out of 5 companies prefer to operate huge losses every year.

6. With these pearls of wisdom of the rotary industry I will send my invoice,because I need the money......:}

Scouse Mouse
4th Apr 2005, 17:08
Job opportunities... non existent.

I have a passed through the ATPL (h), and gained my commercial licence. Like the rest of my friends, (eight), non of us have jobs.

The only difference is I am the only one who has no debt. All the others owe £20000 +. Some £75000 +.

And no... they are not horrible people. They are really nice, hard working, down to earth people, as modestly as I can say, and me too! Believe me I have been investigating this for 15 months now. I know every one everywhere. If you need me at any point, private mail me, cause there's not much that I have not found out about this industry.

I'm sorry mate, but don't get bitten like me. Be something else.

Here to give you really good advise if you need me, no matter what time day or night.

Whirlybird
4th Apr 2005, 17:31
Only do this if you really, really REALLY want to, above all else. Because what people are telling you is true. The industry is in poor shape at the moment; of course, that could change, but it's showing no signs of doing so.

Having said that, if you are determined enough, you will probably get an instructing job, at least part time, IF you like people and realise that getting on with your colleagues and the people who come for trial lessons is at least as important as your flying ability. That will enable you to build hours, albeit slowly. As for paying off your debt...I'm really glad I didn't have any (or very little) as it would have been seriously difficult.

So yes, it can be done. But it won't be easy, and that's definitely an understatement.

Camp Freddie
4th Apr 2005, 17:33
Hey Mr Scouse Mouse.

I dont claim to be an expert but have experience as a flight instructor, onshore commercial pilot and currently am flying offshore in England.

i assume that you dont have an instructor rating?

if you do, are saying that you cannot get any work (not even trial lessons) as a restricted FI ?

if you dont, it will be seen from many previous threads on here that to gain a new CPL(H) only with no instructor rating (and therefore no means of increasing your hours) is hopeless.

1) you either need a CPL + IR cost around £70 k ball park, and try and get into offshore when they are hiring or:

2) get CPL + FI rating cost around £60k ball park and build your hours initially via flight instruction then onshore charter when you are a high time instructor and take it from there.

option 1 = high risk, may end in tears
option 2 = low risk, you will be flying but for less money for a while

getting a CPL with no addons whatsoever = no chance of work (unless you are a connected guy) therefore extremely high risk.

so I really think the best chance of you progressing things is to get an FI rating, hope this helps

regards

CF

murdock
5th Apr 2005, 01:44
ralfm,

It all also depends on where you are willing to live and how resourceful you can be. If you are able to travel and figure out the ways to get to other countries to work, then there are good chances of work out there, and oddly enough a lot of work available, but not an easy route and as all the others have said you will be broke and in debt for quite a while.
As for work in England, judging from what the others have said its not looking very well, and from what I have read, Europe is not the easiest place to get work at the moment. If you are driven enough and want to really do it, you will find a way. Otherwise its a very expensive lesson to learn that you werent all that into it.

good luck with it and hope you make the right decision.

VTA
5th Apr 2005, 02:18
This has been a subject of debate/discussion many times over....Read previous threads for a full gambet of opinions..In a nutshell....DON'T DO IT !!!!! Take your hard earned/borrowed money and do something more productive with it...The helo' industry is cutthroat, poorly managed, terribly paid and dead end...YOU WILL REGRET IT IN THE LONG RUN...

Gerhardt
6th Jul 2005, 19:27
"I see people who .... stick in the same old job because it has good prospects even though it bores them silly. I have friends my own age who count the years and days to retirement."

<- - - - Hey, that's me! And I do so only because the job supports my family and affords me a few dollars to fly for fun. Occasionally I wish I was committed enough to go the CPL route but for the most part it's enough to just log a few hours each week.

Frallifraxer
19th Oct 2005, 00:54
Hi

Guy’s I am really mixed up right now. For about one week ago I was sure the Halo was the life I wanted to live especially the North Sea. But when I found pprune I seems that everybody is complaining about the money is it really that bad ? I am 24 years old do you guy’s thinks I should go for Fixt wind instead ? I you read the Swedish pilot forum’s they all say that work cannot be found and it will take you like 10 years until you make a penny ?

Let’s say I have about 70.000£ to spend and I only interested in the best what will I get for my money if we talk FW

Tanks Guy´s

flapnfeather
19th Oct 2005, 02:16
There are great jobs in rotary and it will take time to get there...like all things, nothing great is easy. Same goes for fixed wing. No one (fixed OR rotary) walks out of their commercial flight test and into their `dream job`.

Starting a career based on what it pays, or how much a bunch of grumpy old buggers complain on a web site may not be the best way to slect what you want to do.

So try some hours in fixed and then some hours in rotary and decide for yourself.

You will know straight away if heli flying is for you.

:E

heliduck
19th Oct 2005, 08:55
Interesting phenomena - Most Rotary pilots are also fixed wing pilots but not many fixed wing pilots can fly helicopters. We are generally completely different personalities requiring different skill sets to succeed, although the need to fly at any cost is common. I suggest you work out which "type" of person you are & go from there. Either way, you will be required to make substantial sacrifices to achieve the end goal of financial & career stability - nothing would piss you off more than to go through all of that & then find out you really wanted to fly the other thing!! Make sure your family either support you or desert you, as the rest of your life will be consumed by the need to fly. Good luck & may the force be with you.

Whirlybird
19th Oct 2005, 08:56
Most people who fly helicopters do it because they love it; it's their dream job and they can't believe they're being paid to do it, however poor the pay is.

But as with everything, sometimes the "Wow!!" factor diminishes with time. I haven't been doing it long enough to know, but I guess eventually it becomes just another job, for some people at least. And when that happens, I suppose you realise you're being not very well paid for something difficult, dangerous, and insecure.

But the thing is - do you love it in the first place? If so, you need to be asking the questions you're asking, and maybe trying to disentangle yourself form rotary addiction while you can...if you want to. But if not, why bother anyway? Get something easier, safer, more secure, and better paid.

Aesir
19th Oct 2005, 09:14
But as with everything, sometimes the "Wow!!" factor diminishes with time.

Well it don´t for me. I have been doing this for 16 years now and it´s always great fun. The only thing that changes is that the money gets better. I now make a loads of money doing something that´s not really work for me. I even fly in my time off for fun also.

But I have always told people that ask me if they should learn fixed wing or helicopters that if they have to ask they should probably just learn to fly fixed wings! If you´re not in it for the love of helicopter flying but just to make money or the idea then it´s just to difficult business to go into.

Nigerian Expat Outlaw
19th Oct 2005, 09:25
Frallifraxer,

I agree totally with Whirlybird. I am at the other end of the spectrum (10,000+ hours, ex military, ex North Sea, ex many other places), and although I could never see it happening, it has become "just a job". Sad, but nothing I can do about it.

Tough call, but my advice for what it's worth is to follow your heart. You won't regret it.

Cheers,

NEO

Thomas coupling
19th Oct 2005, 17:03
How much is "LOADS" of money then Aesir??

eagle 86
19th Oct 2005, 22:10
I find that the word "dangerous" is frequently used in these threads to describe helicopter flying. I would take those that use this and similar words to task and make the point that a modern, well-maintained and flown helicopter is not a "dangerous" piece of machinery and nor is using a helicopter to execute a well planned mission "dangerous".
I would suggest however, that there are a number of very "dangerous" pilots, managers and, dare I say, engineers who, through carelessness/recklessness, add to the public perception that helicopters are "dangerous".
Which category do you fall into?
GAGS
E86

havoc
19th Oct 2005, 22:19
Just another point of view...


My flying covers 22 years. I left the military after 24 years and did not want anything to do with aviation.

Found a good paying job, coat/tie and a large office and thought I was happy...oh yea great money for the area and no aviation.

My family noticed that when I did visit the local helicopter operation I seemed alot happier. Needless to say after 4 years and seemingly an endless hell, I am back in helicopters, flying EMS.

Alot happier, less money, so I guess I can put a price on some happiness, but the family noticed the positive change. I am gone more, much like in the military so there has been a trade off.

My last job, I said they dont pay me enough for the BS, now I am back to the feeling "I get paid to do this".

Fly Safe

John Eacott
19th Oct 2005, 22:46
But as with everything, sometimes the "Wow!!" factor diminishes with time.

Just let me know when to expect that to occur: 40 years yesterday since the Ministry of Aviation granted me my first licence, and it's still just too much fun at times ;) :ok:

eagle 86
19th Oct 2005, 22:50
Beat you by six months John - but have to agree with your sentiment.
GAGS
E86

Whirlybird
20th Oct 2005, 09:16
john and eagle,

Thanks, good to know that. :ok:

As I said, I wasn't speaking from experience, and do note the "sometimes" in my statement. ;)

velboy
20th Oct 2005, 10:31
If you believe everything in this forum you just wouldn't do it.

Everyone bitch’s about their job and the industry no matter what.

The Internet has just allowed it to be more concentrated into these forums.

The jobs are there the opportunities are there you just have to go out and look for them and not sit behind a desk bitching about it on the net.

I was recently flying in US and one of my instructors only a 500hour pilot was bitching about the fact he only got paid flight hours and nothing else. Not much 35USD per hour of flight.

Then one day he said after a flight taking a group of property developers around all day that he mentioned might be off.

Turned out the property developers were looking for a corporate pilot. These guys were seriously loaded.

Result today they bought a brand new R44 and he’s there corporate pilot on a nice salary.

So there is hope

platinumpure
20th Oct 2005, 16:21
For someone coming in to this industry at the moment, it is a great move, IMO.

I can't speak for the rest of the world but in the US the future is bright. Especially if you are a US citizen. If your not its a little bit harder (personal experience). But even then its easy to get a job. A pretty good paying job by that.

I was working in a manhole in the UK 3 years ago bursting my arse working all the hours under the sun trying to make a living. Now I work 6 months of the year (2 weeks on 2 weeks off), of the days I work, I actually work maybe 4 hours a day, the rest of the day I sleep watch TV and read, most days I'm finished by noon. For my touble they pay me around 50+ grand a year for this, thats in dollars which with the cost of living over here is pretty much the same as earning 50 grand pounds.

Which I agree is not the best paying job in the world, however its certainly not the worst. When you compare the amount of effort to amount of money paid it is right up there. Still everyone wants more money and I am no exception. The way things are going that is what is happening, we are getting more money.

As for the airlines, I have lots of friends who went to fly for the airlines. There is money in it if you have been there for years and fly the heavy gear. However it takes a lot longer to get there. I have a friend who is working for an unnamed airline at the moment who is earning 25k a year SIC, he has been flying for 5 years and has over 3500 hours. I've been flying for 3 years have just over 2000 hours and earn more than double what he does, I also have pension, benifits etc. In fact when I got my current job I had only been flying for 2 years.

I am no exception. I hear of people who take 5-10 years to get a decent job. That is garbage these days, if it takes you that long its your own fault. Best and quickest route is go to school get your CFI and CFII then teach for a year. You should easily be able to pick up a decent job after that. Everybody I know has anyway. If you can't get a job in the US there is something wrong with you.

To conclude, would I do it again? Absolutely. Its a great job. If I ever get bored of it or think I'm being hard done to, I'll go do something else, not sit about and moan about it.

Aesir
20th Oct 2005, 17:18
How much is "LOADS" of money then Aesir??

More than I can spend, Thomas ;)

velboy
21st Oct 2005, 07:20
platinumpure
Its a If I ever get bored of it or think I'm being hard done to, I'll go do something else, not sit about and moan about it.


Well said that man. Couldn't agree more. :ok:

Total Rotor Thrust
21st Oct 2005, 12:36
Quidam and others pondering a career change . . .

Everyone I know had some form of career prior to pursuing one in flying. Most of those guys (and girls, for that matter) were late 20s or early 30s before their first time behind the controls.

I am relatively new to the trade, but loving every minute of it. Learned to fly 2002. Now 2000+ hours and employed since about 2 weeks after completing my CPL(H).

I am convinced that there are only 2 things that really helped me when I started . . .

1. I wanted to do this so badly that nothing would stand in my way and the pursuit of my dream was carried out relentlessly;

2. I made certain I was available for ANY opportunity that presented itself, and you know what? A few just happened to.

It's fair to say I had a bit of good luck on my side, but nobody will give you a go if they don't see some reason in you as a person to do so.

I say go for it, and don't wait another minute. We all only have one life and you have to fit in as much as you can - preferably doing the things you really want to rather than other stuff!!

Oh, and by the way . . . I didn't start learning to fly until 36, I was married with kids. Now I wake up every morning and can't wait to get to work - I get to go flying every day, oh and I'm still married to my beautiful wife and spending more time with my kids now than I did before I changed careers. I've never flown fixed wing and my choices have never been driven around money.

Good luck in you pursuits. If you have half the experiences I have had you will look back on those events fondly with a sense of achievement thinking . . . 'I did that'.

Bronx
27th Nov 2006, 01:01
Would you become a Professional Pilot again?

For sure. I wouldn;t wanna do anything else.
The pure joy of being in the air makes up for all the downsides.

Think of all those folks in offices hunched over their computers all day. :sad:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/BronxNYC/WhatWentWrong.jpg



B.

xraf
27th Nov 2006, 11:14
Would you become a Professional Pilot again?

For sure. I wouldn;t wanna do anything else.
The pure joy of being in the air makes up for all the downsides.

Think of all those folks in offices hunched over their computers all day. :sad:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/BronxNYC/WhatWentWrong.jpg


B.

................reading PPRUNE!!! ;)

SASless
27th Nov 2006, 15:57
Me Mum thinks I play piano in a brothel....if she ever finds out I am a helicopter pilot it will break the old dear's heart.

I should have gone to airline flying when I had the chance....or to law school....but it was fun, travel, and adventure I was seeking rather than boredom and riches.

Why ever could foresight be just a wee bit better?

Nigerian Expat Outlaw
27th Nov 2006, 16:16
Sas,

Long time no read. Yup, life is just full of "If Onlys". :ugh: I recall my younger son when he was 12 telling me that when he grew up he wanted to be a helicopter pilot like his Dad. My answer was the predictable one: "Son, you can't do both".:)

Cheers,

NEO

SASless
27th Nov 2006, 23:18
NEO,

I just spent six weeks in the mountains seeking Deer, Elk, Black Bear, and Cougars to murder....although in some cases with the Cougar it could be a form of self-defense.

Saw each of the critters....at night or standing in the middle of the paved highway thus critters 1....the SAS, zero for the season.

Some how Nigeria seems more like a bad dream than a place I spent quite a bit of time not so long ago.

US Cavalry has some very good body armor and kevlar undies in their catalogue....perhaps you might consider investing in some of their products.

seawings
28th Nov 2006, 00:02
Fixed or rotary pilot, electrical engineer or electrician, ship’s captain or deck hand every profession has it best and worst job stories. Hang around bars were the oil patch hang out (and they are in every corner of the world) and you will hear each and every one complaining about something. Hang out in bars where the Wall Street geniuses hang out, you know the ones that got 300K bonuses this year!! and you will also hear them complaining. Where ever you hang out or what ever your profession or job is you will hear complaining. It seems to be one of our human failings…whining! So enjoy…it’s everywhere and everyone is doing it…a right and a privilege in a free society. Now that I have moralized, just remember only you can make a change and you have one of the potentially most interesting jobs in the world...keep it in perspective.

Mr Toad
28th Nov 2006, 13:08
Damn right I would.

RN Wings 1964, radial engines to glass cockpits since then.
16,000 + hours, bag always packed, cv at the ready.
I'm opionated, quarrelsome, regularly poor and will accept anybody's free meal(I've flown to Vma with the best of them).

Forcibly retired from active flying I now drive a sim training young plank drivers; I don't try to convert them. Fixed Wing people are OK but not like us...(honourable exceptions of course Nick). I've enjoyed my Helicoptering in many countries with many nationalities; they have greatly enriched my life and I take this opportunity to thank them all.

Damn right I would.

oldmanofthesky
6th Jan 2008, 16:13
Got bored after a reading a few pages of this thread and no one had actually answered the question posed. So I jumped to here.

So I will answer it.

YES.

For those who have forgotten what the original question was, it was " Would you become a Professional Pilot again?"

skadi
6th Jan 2008, 16:54
YES! I would do it again.

skadi

arismount
6th Jan 2008, 17:44
Answer to the original question: No, absolutely not.

Bronx
6th Jan 2008, 19:18
Why and why not? :confused:

HeliHunter
7th Jan 2008, 05:01
You guys are just killing me with this !!!

If you're a) - over the whole thing - stop doing it.

If you're b) - loving it (regardless of the variables and options) - keep doing it.

One recipe isn't going to work for everyone either way.

a) If you're over it - what are you doing spending so much time on this forum bitching about it.

b) If you're loving it and getting so much satisfaction, income and freedom from it - use all of the above to go and enjoy them.

Would I do it again ?

Left lucrative career at 34 (5 years ago) to pursue CPL(H), did the very hard yards, then some slightly less hard yards, now enjoying flying, conditions, environment and variety of missions - money's a struggle - but tolerable (with family).

Answer : Yes - in a heartbeat.

AntiCrash
25th Feb 2009, 18:16
Flying is too lovely a thing to do for a living. I have found it just mucks it up. Work at the thing that pays well and is tolerable so you can enjoy your muse for what it is on your own terms.

Confirmed Santos Dumont Afficianado

vulcan558xh
25th Feb 2009, 19:01
The RAF in the early 1970's sent the best pilots and the worst navigators onto helicopters. Flying the Harrier was next in the pilot pecking order folowed by the lightning and F4. The 4 jet stuff was for the under achievers !

helimusterer
29th Jan 2010, 23:14
Wouldn't trade it for the world.;) I would only have done it sooner was I given the chance again.:ok:

Helihunter you are spot on :D

Dutch_Heli_Pilot
3rd Dec 2011, 14:00
Well,

I somehow feel the need to post something in this thread. After reading all these depressing stories of people that (in my humble opinion) seem to be very negative about flying, I thought it was time to respond.

First of all, for all those that whine and complain..... Get another job! If you don't, to me that means that there must be something keeping you there. Either the pay (which apparently is awful if I read the stories here), the fact that you can call yourself a pilot, or just the fact that you don't have to sit at a desk all day every day. Either way, if it is that horrible (whichever occupation you are in), get another job and stop whining!

Now my experience. I was fortunate enough to have enough life savings to pay for my entire course without having to borrow money. And that makes all the difference in the world to me. It means I won't have to pay off my debt for the next .... years. The pay is bad? Well, if you have 150.000,- euro + interest to pay back, then yes. Your salary will mainly go to paying off your debt. And as far as people that would want to start a career in aviation to make a lot of money, before you have a return on investment, you'll be retired. So don't do it for the money. Someone once said to me:"The only way to make a small fortune in aviation is if you started out with a large fortune." And I believe that is very true.

Also, if you are in it for the glamour of being able to call yourself a pilot, and have visions of walking down an airport with stewardesses, don't become a helicopter pilot, but become a fixed wing pilot. No glamour here, but hard work.

If after all that you are still reading, you must have some interest in flying. I did, and took a test flight. Within the first few minutes I KNEW this was what I needed to do. And I also knew it would be a lot of hard work. Lots of studying, and sleepless nights. But, every minute I spent up there flying around made all that hard work and effort seem to disappear! I absolutely love flying! If you don't, then please don't pursue a career as a pilot. Every time I feel myself getting bored (because those days will come!), I realize that I am one of the lucky few to make a career out of something they love. And furthermore, I realize that at the very least, I am not sitting behind a desk! No offense to those that do, I am simply not suitable to do a desk job. And if you keep that realization, you will be fine.

Each of us probably spends more time with their colleagues and at our job then we do with our wife and children. That being said, you might as well pursue a job that will make you happy and pays the bills. If you don't, then please stop moaning and complaining! Your life, your choice as far as I am concerned.

Flying is fantastic! In my opinion. No one can state that it is a fact that it isn't, or that other people are naive. That is just their opinion. And whatever anyone may say, if you are happy with what you are doing, you may be naive, but you're definitely a winner over those that are unhappy in their careers/lives! And whomever is reading this and contemplating becoming a pilot, you have to make your own opinion whether or not it is for you. I would suggest you start with a trail flight lesson somewhere, and take it from there. At least you'll know if you have vertigo! :)

So to make a short story long: YES! I would absolutely do it all again!

DotMark
3rd Dec 2011, 21:47
Such a great post Dutch! :ok:

GoodGrief
3rd Dec 2011, 22:41
Such a great post Dutch!

Objection, your honour!

The question is "would you do it again?", this is not about whining.
Our dutch friend said "flying is fantastic". That is the good part about the job. A year has about 2000 working hours, so when one flies 500 hours a year it means 1500 hours have to be filled with something else.That might well be sitting behind a desk.
We do not know for how long our friend has been in aviation.

When the uninformed noob is questioned about what field of helicopters he wants to be in the 2 favourite answers you'll get are
a) "Rescue pilot"
b) "Offshore flying"

Those two are the ones where the decent money is and the good working hours are.
The rest of us works 60 to 80 hour weeks illegally, is on duty 330 days per year and makes less money than a brick layer in a 40 hour week.
There is no time for family and the divorce rates are high.

Lot's of us are still in it because it's too late to bail out after two decades or more in the saddle.
With 150k Euros in your pocket you're better off buying a house so you never have to pay rent again and the bank can't touch you because you have NO loan. Come Friday noon you go home, get on your motorcycle and ride into the weekend.

This is not about whining...

DotMark
4th Dec 2011, 08:34
GoodGrief, I know you're right too. My expression was related to the fact that this post is one of the few positive. And for those who, like me, still has to start training, it is important to hear words of "comfort." Then, of course, the reality is always different, always the worst. The important thing, though, is that somehow we know it can be done.

fijdor
4th Dec 2011, 14:01
Been in it for 34 years now as a VFR pilot. I had a beautiful career, loved most of it (but let's be realistic here, nothing is perfect) Most of the people I have worked with in this industry were great.

I am still in it because that is what I want to do and I still like it.

Would do it all over again.

JD

fly911
4th Dec 2011, 15:13
Yes! Seven years HEMS was most rewarding especially with the best med crews in the U.S. at LIFE REACH. 25 years Mosquito control flying where you basically strap your helicopter on and fly by the seat of your pants SOLO. Ag turns still make me smile. It doesn't get any better than that.

grumpytroll
6th Dec 2011, 14:49
Greatest job in the world. If I win the lottery I quit!

(probably but a MD500 for personal use)

Cheers

SASless
6th Dec 2011, 15:04
Perhaps Piano lessons and a job playing in a bawdy house would have paid better with much better fringe bennies.:E

If I had known then what I know now....I would have finished University...gone fixed wing in either the Air Force or Marine Corps...then done a law degree and stayed in the National Guard.

But....hind sight is so accurate.

The flying life was good to me in a left handed way....lots of travel...met some great people...saw and did things most people just dream about.

The industry has made some improvements over the years....usually against its own desires....pay is better, working conditions are better, and one can almost count on retiring at some point. None of that was the case in the old days.

Soave_Pilot
6th Dec 2011, 15:23
I'm 25 yrs old, making more money than most guys at my age, going to places most people would never be able to and I'm never bored with my job...

No regret at all so far...

Epiphany
6th Dec 2011, 16:03
If I could start again when I did - maybe. If I had to start today - no way in the world.

grumpytroll
6th Dec 2011, 16:24
Shortage of pilots will hit Asia hard - AviationPros.com (http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10472616/shortage-of-pilots-will-hit-asia-hard)

Cheers

Dutch_Heli_Pilot
6th Dec 2011, 21:10
Well,

I do believe I disagree a lot with this comment.

The question was answered by a lot of people, who in my opinion are whining. If you read some of the previous post, you'll find lots of complaints from people who should just stop complaining, and go do something about it already. You can't really tell me that you think their posts are not whining. Or you must have been reading something different from me.

"Your friend" has been in aviation for many hours, so don't you worry about that. I hope to be there for many hours to come. However, experienced or inexperienced, it really doesn't matter. The fact still remains, if you don't like what you are doing (whatever job you have!), go do something else. It really isn't that hard now is it?

And of course a lot of "noobs" (in my opinion a condescending term for people, especially those that take an interest in our industry) want to get in aviation because of HEMS, SAR of offshore flying (the latter being the biggest employer in the helicopter industry, so not very unrealistic in my opinon). So what? That doesn't mean they won't be very happy flying as an instructor or corporate or any other job for that matter. They might even get to be one of the few that actually makes it to HEMS or SAR. Good for them! If it is your dream, go for it, rather then complain about your current situation, but changing nothing about it.

"The rest of us works 60 to 80 hour weeks illegally, is on duty 330 days per year and makes less money than a brick layer in a 40 hour week.
There is no time for family and the divorce rates are high."

Please... The rest of us? Where did you get these "facts" from? If you want to express your opinion, then fine. But please don't go talking about "the rest of us", because that is simply not true. If you are one that works more hours than legally allowed, you should consider doing something else. Because in my opinion, you are a hazard to yourself, the aircraft, the public and the industry! I think a brick laying job would probably suit you better than flying, so I suggest you go do that. It obviously would make you a lot happier and all of us a lot safer!

"Lot's of us are still in it because it's too late to bail out after two decades or more in the saddle."

To this I say: It must not be bad enough then. Because if it was, I would still rather go do something else than stay at that job and be miserable. It is never too late to bail out if things were bad enough! Besides, if it took you 2 decades to find out that you hated it........ Let's just say I think I would find out a little sooner than that.

As far as DotMark goes: A lot of us are very happy doing what we do and we do it safely and legally! Go to a company, ask around and you will find that most pilots you will talk to are very happy in their job. I have! Sure, it isn't all good. Money could be better. Sometimes it gets boring (even though at the beginning stages that would be unimaginable), but to me it still beats sitting at a desk (or laying bricks!).

"With 150k Euros in your pocket you're better off buying a house so you never have to pay rent again and the bank can't touch you because you have NO loan. Come Friday noon you go home, get on your motorcycle and ride into the weekend."

Again, I did not say the money was fantastic (especially if you have a loan), but it isn't bad either. But don't get into aviation for the money. If that is your motive (which was GoodGriefs motive I suspect), you will end up unhappy without money. Go do it for the love of flying, because you hate the thought of a desk job or because your knees are too bad to lay bricks.

Again, start with a trial lesson, because you might not even like it up there. And if you do..... Make your decision. No one else can do it for you. If you want to give it a go, then do it. Times will get tough, money most certainly will be saying goodbye to you, but if you are like me... The reward of flying makes it all worth while. Then again, if you are like GoodGrief, it most certainly will not. But the grass is always greener on the other side for some people. Whatever you decide, the choice is yours!

Good luck with everything!

Big Guy
7th Dec 2011, 14:05
Yes It has been a great life. ;)

everynowandthen
27th Jan 2014, 16:20
Any new thoughts on this? Here we are a couple of years later & now my boy is thinking of flying helicopters for a living. I can't fund it all so he'll be taking out a loan.

GoodGrief
27th Jan 2014, 17:20
Rule #1: No loan!

430EMSpilot
27th Jan 2014, 23:56
Ive been flying for 32 years, I don't make as much as my friends in banking and finance but I'm a lot happier. I have yet to meet a person who, when they learn that I fly helicopters for a living doesn't say they wished they had a cool job like mine.

If you're not happy as a helicopter pilot I believe that you can't be happy doing anything, this stuff is fun! I've flown in the military(got paid to fly low and fast and shoot stuff),EMS(got paid to help people and sleep too), and corporate(great facilities, first class equipment, and perks), each of them had good and not so good things going on but I can't imagine doing anything else. I have had co-workers who were very unhappy doing the exact same thing I was enjoying, they were always feeling slighted, cheated, unappreciated, underpaid, etc, etc.

Attitude is everything! There are people who would trade places with us in a second, I try to keep that in mind when I am tempted to complain!

My standard line is "I can't believe they pay me to do this"!

carsickpuppy
28th Jan 2014, 00:41
From a North American point of view; It was the best decision I ever made and I'd certainly do it again.

Ascend Charlie
28th Jan 2014, 04:33
It has had its ups and downs - so to speak.

Just finished flying after 45 years since my first solo. Probably should have chosen fixed wing as a career that has some progression, because choppers certainly had no progression for the first 35 years I was in it. At least these days, the companies are big enough to offer some chance to improve your lot, but in the past there was nothing left in the piggy bank at the end of the pay cycle, and nothing went into superannuation.

My son at age 17 said he would like to follow me into aviation (as I had followed my father, uncle, brother and brother-in-law) but I told him to get a real job. Luckily he listened and is now wildly successful, so maybe he can support me in my old age.

EN48
28th Jan 2014, 13:56
"...It has had its ups and downs - so to speak.....
My son at age 17 said he would like to follow me into aviation (as I had followed my father, uncle, brother and brother-in-law) but I told him to get a real job. Luckily he listened and is now wildly successful ...."

Bingo! Life is all about choices, and every choice involves tradeoffs. With each choice, you get some things and give up other things. Its important to have as full an understanding of the tradeoffs involved with this kind of choice as possible. Its also important for the individual making this choice to know himself/herself well and know how such a choice fits with their values, personality, lifestyle, goals, etc. There is much more to such a choice than doing something that seems "cool." For many, if not most, at age 18 or so, cool trumps everything else. As we grow older and wiser, our notion of what is "cool" expands greatly. At age 18, flying a Sikorsky S-76 seems way cool; by age 35, cool also includes becoming CEO of Sikorsky.

All of this to say that choosing a career is a lot like choosing a wife. There are many possible choices and one needs to choose carefully and thoughtfully. (It is almost certainly easier to change wives than to change careers!) For starters, read the pilot salary surveys in Pro Pilot magazine. Pretty sobering, IMHO. This is an intensely personal decision with possibly life long consequences. Choose carefully.


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk245/EN48480B/b69ad676-f8c1-45ec-bc2a-6cdfdcba441c_zps00e82cce.jpg (http://s282.photobucket.com/user/EN48480B/media/b69ad676-f8c1-45ec-bc2a-6cdfdcba441c_zps00e82cce.jpg.html)

nomorehelosforme
28th Jan 2014, 14:07
I'm not a pilot but have met and flown with many all over the world. I've never met an unhappy pilot yet and all seem to be happy with their careers, some learnt their trade in the military and then went commercial and some did it the hard way!

Have never met a pilot yet with career regrets.

Macstar
28th Mar 2014, 23:38
OK, my turn:

I'm a 34 year old business world professional making $280k pa with a secure job, superannuation. Chances are in another 10 years I could be making double that. Sounds great right? Not really, I work nearly 60hrs pw, sit at a desk or in meetings most of the day, encounter liars, cheaters, self-interested people on a daily basis and often have to make people redundant (good people).

In short, my job is causing me a lot of stress and I'm a bit over it. I could set up a situation through contracting where I could work 2-3 days per week and still make reasonable coin, but allow more time to pursue an alternative career / interest that I would love to do. Introducing the CPL - something I wanted to do out of school but couldn't afford. Had a few lessons over the years, and I'm now in a fortunate position to be able to afford to go for it.

So, if I did this, my business contracting gig would not be flexible i.e. I would need to stick to certain days of the week most probably. Let's say it's 2-4 years from now, I've got my CPL I've clocked up enough hours. What's the likelihood of finding a commercial flying gig that I could balance on my other 3 or so days of freedom? Utopia / fantasy land...?

Being driven, determined etc as often recommended throughout this site is not an issue for me. Without going into a big spiel, I've topped my class at uni, recovered from being wheel chair bound, ran my company at 19 yrs with 10 staff, been CPO for a $3bn company at 29yrs and more.

Lastly, sorry if this post sounds a bit arrogant - I wanted to cut to the chase and have an honest discussion.

Many thanks, I look forward to your responses.

icedriver
29th Mar 2014, 06:35
Still get butterflies of excitement every time I hit the starter. Wouldn't change a thing about my career as I'm still living the dream.

GoodGrief
29th Mar 2014, 09:56
...encounter liars, cheaters, self-interested people...

You'll find a lot of those in the helicopter business.
And, I have had 70 and even 80 hour weeks.
Get your PPL and fly when YOU want.

Aser
29th Mar 2014, 10:01
Listen to goodGrief... :ok:

Arrrj
29th Mar 2014, 11:11
Macstar,

I am an Aussie businessman and heli pilot.

PM me if you like and we can chat.

There is no way you can make the money you want in helis, but you CAN go flying. And flying helis IS THE BEST.

Arrrj

TIMTS
29th Mar 2014, 12:04
If I could have started my own career over again, with the same progression...more or less...then sure, I'd do it again.
But looking back to starting flight school 13 years ago, and realizing how incredibly lucky I have been to end up where I am today...I would have to do some soul searching before recommending it to someone else.

It took an amazing amount of luck, hard work, being at the right place and the right time, and knowing the right people to succeed.

At the same time, the feeling of wonder and excitement one gets from looking at the world from a helicopter is unbeatable. And after landing, I always turn around and look back at the machine, thinking "I just flew that". Be it a 300CB or a 76, same feeling. I doubt you get that from a cubicle...

bleuciel
30th Mar 2014, 11:53
Helicopter pilot? Probably Yes.
North Sea pilot? Certainly Not.

I don't care about the money, I care about having a nice and easy life. No, the North Sea is not offering it. It does offer the money, but that's all about it. When you are young, it's probably ok. As you get older (and wiser) you will probably wonder "what am I doing up here".

Bravo73
30th Mar 2014, 12:34
I care about having a nice and easy life. No, the North Sea is not offering it.

It sounds like you're working for the wrong company.

helimutt
30th Mar 2014, 12:57
Not hard to work out which one!!! ;)

Devil 49
31st Mar 2014, 00:56
At some point "interesting" situations stopped being challenges I anticipated. I find myself asking "Why are you still doing this?" When the hard days aren't opportunities to hone professional skills, even unhappily, it will be time to quit. In my case, that will have nothing to do with my employer...

bleuciel
1st Apr 2014, 17:47
Bravo 73 and helimutt,
I really can't see how having a nice and easy life is related to which company you are working for. Unless of course your companies are operating in nice weather, day only, no unstables or bow decks at night. Please let me know if this is the case. I'd be delighted to work in the N.Sea for a company like that.

Bravo73
1st Apr 2014, 19:15
99% of the flying that I do is 'nice and easy'. And that covers your full range of VMC/IMC, day/night, warm/cold, stable/unstable. 1% of the flying is challenging and never, ever have I thought "what am I doing up here".

It sounds like you should hand in your IR and go fly some nice pleasure trips in a Jetbanger or Robinson somewhere. Or just hand in your whole licence and find some ground bound job somewhere.

That will be 'nice and easy' for you.

bleuciel
1st Apr 2014, 20:16
Ok, I see it is becoming personal Bravo 73. I never thought you were like that. Really disappointing...

I just said my opinion and you and helimutt blamed the company you think I am working for. Which, at the end of the day, has nothing to do with how easy or difficult or challenging or boring is flying up here.

As for my IR and my job, you know what? Let me choose what I am gonna do with that. You can stay in your golden cage getting a blip load of money for flying 'nice and easy' and wasting your life for the sake of it. Would you have stayed in the N.Sea if the salary was the same as the Metropolitan Police?? I thought so...

Btw, you probably have forgotten that flying a Robinson is much more difficult than flying the 92 or the 225 plugged in. You remind me of a N.Sea pilot (7000hrs+) who couldn't use the pedals when he tried to fly the R22.

Bravo73
1st Apr 2014, 20:43
I never thought you were like that. Really disappointing...
Would you have stayed in the N.Sea if the salary was the same as the Metropolitan Police?? I thought so...

:confused: Erm, I don't think that I'm the person that you think that I am.

Anyway, I'm not getting personal at all. You've said that you don't like flying in the NS. You've said that you want to fly in "nice weather, day only, no unstables or bow decks at night". I've given you a viable alternative. Reading between the lines, it doesn't really sound like you like flying at all.

Judging by your post history, flying offshore on the NS seems to be the only flying job that you've had. If that is the case, then you won't appreciate what a great deal that you've got. You'll probably won't realise what it means to grub along in a rickety old single (piston or turbine), with the weather closing in and the hills coming up around you. You probably don't realise what it means to work for minimum wage, flying around and around in circles all day. You probably don't realise what it feels like to have to drop someone off in the middle of nowhere and then have to wait around all day and then work out a way of getting them home again safely, without breaking too many rules.

Offshore flying has given me more time and resources to lead the life that I actually want to lead. Compared to before, my 'working life' now takes up a relatively small proportion of my 'total life'. No other job, flying or otherwise, has ever given me that.

And, no, I haven't forgotten what it's like to fly a Robinson, a Bell or a Hughes. It's not more difficult than flying a modern EFIS twin; it's just different. And if you must know, I have seen more pilots get chopped from modern MEH type ratings than I have ever seen experienced MEH pilots struggling on a single piston conversion.

And finally, no, I don't think that I know which company you work for (unlike helimutt who alludes to). I'm just pretty sure that you don't work for the same company that I do.

Mrchicken
15th Jun 2014, 18:55
Hello all wanted to introduce myself. Mr chicken from England. Thank you for letting me join. Very much appreciated. Advice please.

Am going for it. Zero to commercial.....I can hear the laughter already. Life is short. I'm in. Sold house, cashed in, end July ish? Bristow in Florida? Any good?

Says 48 weeks, private, instrument, check, and then tailored to your wants. Ie, tourism, rigs, etc.$75,000.00 or around £50,000.00.

Am I bonkers to even get involved? Job after? Won't have this chance again.

Previous- sales, and run my own building company 10 yrs. Very down to earth. Site banter..

Need to feel some love that I'm doing the right thing? Internet crap where I am.
Can reply when I walk down the drive to get signal.

Many thanks in advance chaps.

Mark

misterbonkers
15th Jun 2014, 20:27
Do what makes you happy!

I love my job but there are rubbish days too - sometimes there is nothing to watch on TV and I run out of my favourite tea bags.

Crack on with it and good luck!

MB

Whirlygig
15th Jun 2014, 21:25
Go for it! This is a better time than any in the last few years but ...

have an escape route in case it doesn't work out, in case you lose your medical!

Cheers

Whirls

Evalu8ter
15th Jun 2014, 21:31
Mark,
I'm not sure if it will help, but HeliCentre at Leicester were promoting their ZFH programme at Heli UK a couple of weeks back. They have a number of scholarships available, and are launching a degree course too. They have a career seminar next month (19 Jul) Helicentre Aviation : Helicopter Pilot Career Seminars (http://www.flyheli.co.uk/seminars/) why not try and get to it? Well worth getting all possible PoVs before shelling out all that capital.

Best of luck!

terminus mos
15th Jun 2014, 22:13
Go to Bristow in Florida. Their networks are much wider than just the UK and your connections there will prove valuable in your future career search. They regularly have visits from OEMs, oil and gas etc. You never know who you will meet.

Helinaut
16th Jun 2014, 01:06
Go with Bristow and hang in there. You will go through tough times but if you give your best it will pay off. One advice and not just for you initial training...keep your ears open and rather listen then talk, you might learn more than you think. Learning will not stop until you retire! Enjoy and all the best on your move.:ok:

Bravo73
16th Jun 2014, 08:50
Go for it! This is a better time than any in the last few years but ...


Hello Whirls. Long time, no read here on Rotorheads.



have an escape route in case it doesn't work out, in case you lose your medical!


Is that from personal experience??? :uhoh:


To Mrchicken - dig out Camp Freddie's training risk matrix. Therefore if Plan A doesn't work (personal circumstances, cyclical nature of the industry, luck etc etc), have a Plan B to fall back on. Or a C or a D.

Camp Freddie
16th Jun 2014, 15:56
Hey Mr73, thanks for reminding me, got a chance to bring it out of storage ��
I am confident it still applies though after all these years.

"Option A, CPL(H) only, high risk, chance of employment poor or nil
Option B, CPL(H) + FI rating, higher cost, low risk, lower returns
Option C, CPL(H) + IR, higher cost, high risk, higher returns"

I am slightly confused as to what Mr Chicken is buying, hope it's not just option A?

Camp Freddie
17th Jun 2014, 16:21
Previous- sales, and run my own building company 10 yrs. Very down to earth. Site banter.

Not much banter from Mr Chicken so far in response to good advice others have provided?

Hilico
17th Jun 2014, 19:36
Be fair, he didn't say web site banter.

cockney steve
18th Jun 2014, 10:03
Can reply when I walk down the drive to get signal.
Maybe you missed this bit as well?

Camp Freddie
18th Jun 2014, 11:44
Maybe he only leaves the house every 2/3 days

Thomas coupling
18th Jun 2014, 12:56
I'm out of the hands on now, after 30 years of physical poling, I have probably covered 70% of all types of helo ops.
I don't miss it. I have emotionally moved on - I am mid 50's and doing something else for a change because even my last poling job became very boring after a while (don't most jobs? I said MOST not all) and that job - most pilots would have killed for a crack at it.
It wasn't the reason I left however.
Suffice to say - I believe I have been blessed with the opportunities afforded me in the aviation world - Mil for many years and Police for many years!
I challenge anyone to tell me that they HAVEN'T enjoyed flying. Savour that last word: "Flying". How many normal mortals get the chance to fly almost every day of their lives, I ask you????? IF you asked any member of the public would they like to lift off and soar through the clouds and look down over our beautiful countryside at any time day or night - 95% of men would say yes and probably 40% of women would (strange but true).

I digress - the OP asks about professional flying.

This is where it gets messy and I get confrontational:
I don't think anyone will argue that military flying is the best form of flying ever! Almost all regimes of flight are encountered and explored. Commercial: Mmmm a different beast methinks. Pick the wrong type of professional flying and the love affair could quite easily fizzle out - and quickly.

I have never flown Oil rigs - I have flown in a goon suit for bloody years though and I know (without having done it for real) that offshore oil and gas rig flying is enough to drive any proper pilot to drink! Monotonous doesn't even come near it!
Charter - Mmmm, those who have worked with me and who have come from this background offer mixed reviews. Good clients, bad clients.
Corporate - Again mixed reviews but perhaps even more heavily biased towards bad experiences due to unsymapthetic principle owners.
Crop/L lifting/bush etc: Mmmm Those I have talked to indetail seem overall to have discovered a niche market (in this country anyway) where there is massive +ve feedback. You are almost your own boss. Back to basics yes, but they certainly know how to get the best out of their steed...and IF they survive, they seem to make the best 'Polers' in the industry.

I come from an industry where money was no object. The best possible cabs, the best possible maintenance and the best ever - equipment. Because of this, it attracts the best ever people....and the picture becomes complete.

Would I go back and do it again: In a heartbeat! :ok:

FC80
18th Jun 2014, 16:18
I'd do it all over again without a second thought.

It's the biggest cliché going when it comes to commercial aviation, but it sure beats working for a living.

:ok:

Attila
20th Jun 2014, 10:57
Would I?:confused::confused:

Absolutely!!:ok::ok::ok:

Started at age 25 at Middle Wallop in 1970 on the Chipmunk, Bell 47 G4, then the Sioux.

6 years later, joined the Omani Air Force on the Agusta Bell 205 and Bell 214B, 3 years, then into civvy street and Commercial Aviation on the 206 and Bell 212.

North Sea beckoned with the Bell 212, followed by the S61N and the AS332 L1.

My last commercial flight was in an S61N in August 2008 out of Sumburgh as a contractor.

Loved every bit of it, the North Sea, (North and South), the Falklands, Donegal, Shannon, you name it, I loved it. For me there was nothing as rewarding as climbing out of the aircraft after an 8 hour day of cr4p weather, having safely achieved what was required. Always had a big grin on my face.:):):)

Do I miss it now?? No, not really as the time came to move on and I hit 65 in 2010 when my all my recency and medical expired.:{:{

Still have an FAA ATP, though......

Now there's a thought!!!;);););)