Does anyone actually take any notice of PPRUNE?

[Dominoe]

Is there any evidence that a post on this forum has ever received any official reaction from a senior bod? I often see questions or requests for information and the user sometimes receives a reply of "check your PM`s".

But I wonder if there has ever been any official higher level reaction to a rant, confession, slipped secret etc? Sometimes the official reaction or response is reported or evident in the press. Examples being the low level video posted on the net, the RAF being utterly useless claim, the AT difficulties around the globe. All these have resulted in some form of official enquiry or reporting in the papers.

But there are many other threads that I wonder if, when read by a one star or above, results in some form of personal come-back or review of the rules. There is a thread running at present about the differance in rules in accom for AT v FJ for example.

So has anyone ever received a "visit" or phone call from a boss or desk officer as a result of posting a comment on here?

[ranger703]

Its an anonymous forum,so unless your just plain stupid and admit your user name how can there be any comeback?

[Wyler]

It is required reading on the senior staff courses but, as far as I can gather, it is considered more light relief than an insight into the shop floor thinking. It is the very fact that we are anonymous that seems to add to the perceived 'lack' of credibility.

If you consider the current manpower of the RAF and the number of 'regular' posters on here it is really tiny as a representative forum.

More of a virtual crewroom. :ok: :ok:

[tucumseh]

"So has anyone ever received a "visit" or phone call from a boss or desk officer as a result of posting a comment on here?"


Was contacted by a successor, three times removed, asking if he could pick my brains, as it was obvious from some (unclassified) comment I'd made that I knew something about a project. We didn't know each other. They'd lost all corporate knowledge before the embodiment phase could get under way. Judging by recent press photos, the a/c have been fitted so it worked out in the end.

As for bosses, while I'm sometimes outspoken they know I have written supporting evidence for everything I say, so I'm left alone. That, and not breaching SY keeps you on the right side. However, it is difficult these days knowing where the line is because of their inconsistent implementation of FOI. They happily hand out what I would consider Confidential (at least) material, while withholding stuff that is actually in the public domain. The other day I read information on a US website that I would never, hitherto, dare mention here. The recent NAO 2006 report on major projects (see other thread), when discussing this project, went to such lengths to avoid discussing this information that they actually made themselves look silly and toothless!

[RETDPI]

The old Catch-22.
Be anonymous and therefore be ignored, since you obviously "don't have the courage of your convictions".
Stand up and be named and thus lose your career for choosing "an inappropriate means by which to express yourself".
I.e. The Air Force is always right.
I learnt that one as a Flight Cadet - before the "Tech" went comprehensive.

[PTT]

Judging by recent press photos, the a/c have been fitted so it worked out in the end.
So it was you responsible for the Puma paint job!

[JagRigger]

Come on guys and girls - any regular contributor to Prune isn't hard to identify, and I know of people who have had polite warnings in the past on this or other such newsgroups. We must have all thought 'ouch - that's a bit close to the mark' in terms of revealing things when reading posts, I certainly have.

[tucumseh]

PTT

"So it was you responsible for the Puma paint job!"


Yes, it was me. I deliberately wasted the money. Now that I've proven myself, and meet the appropriate standards, can I have CDP's job please?

[EODFelix]

Re NAO 2006 MPR - the whole clearance process is run past senior MoD staffs many times (with a 2* MoD handling officer). Purpose of this is to ensure that only factual accuracies are reported and that no classified material is released inadvertantly.

[tucumseh]

Re NAO 2006 MPR - the whole clearance process is run past senior MoD staffs many times (with a 2* MoD handling officer). Purpose of this is to ensure that only factual accuracies are reported and that no classified material is released inadvertantly.

Agreed, but my point was that, while accurate, the lack of detail left the reader asking "But why did that happen?" and "So when they (MoD) gave you that answer, did you not dig deeper?". I already knew the answer to the first from the US site I mentioned. As for the second, these committees don't normally dig deep, and MoD carefully select and brief interviewees, so the report is largely worthless in the context of an Audit designed to highlight deficiencies of process and procedure, or waste.

[Gnd]

One of the main problems seems to be that so many 'rants' decay into slanging matches and some very good comment gets sullied in back stabbing and deviation. A good thing would be to have a non-judgmental 'open' forum within a work computing system. Attributable comments have more credence and usually stick to the point - I know I will be ridiculed for being open and claims of 'your for the high jump if they catch you'; comments inbound but BEN has a fantastic FS system/net and it does get points across. HF 'anonymous' returns (ACCORN etc...) are attributable and have hade some fantastic results. It’s the fear of retribution that worries most but in a justice based society, if you do a crime - do the time; if you see a problem that will save your mates life - SHOUT UP, no one will persecute you unless they have something to hide.

[BEagle]

Believe me, certain inadequately testiculated ambitious thrusters will go to any length to find out who is behind a nom-de-PPRuNe.

Rather than defending the indefensible, or doing anything to remedy the cause of the comment, they will then use their powers of position (and vague all-encompassing QRs) to try to silence your comments on here. Onwards and upwards is their only goal - and they don't want anyone or anything to queer that pitch!

Or so I understand......:rolleyes:

[engoal]

Some years ago I added an innocuous one-liner reply to a thread about engineering support to a particular FJ fleet. Minutes later I received a gypsy's warning by e-mail from another (possibly ex-serving current journalist) contributor who was a regular participant in the Chinook debate at the time.

Ever since then I have been in the 'observe, don't comment' camp, but have seen PPrune cited or quoted regularly where the posh nobs hang out!:bored:

[NoseGunner]

Remember PPRuNe is only anonymous to the casual observer. If "they" really want to know who you are then they can find out. So stay the right side of classified stuff!

Totally agree with Gnd about all the chaff blocking a few good points.

We should try a forum with no slagging/I'm better than you/uninformed pontificating!:confused:

[PompeySailor]

I printed off a thread about the JPA debacle when it first went truly pear-shaped and there were huge problems. I passed it to my 2*, and it came back to me with green ink from a 3* with indications that a 4* had been briefed on the contents. I know of a change in policy from the Dark Blue side of things that was directly related to the contents of that print out.

You can write to me at HMP......

[GlosMikeP]

PTT

"So it was you responsible for the Puma paint job!"


Yes, it was me. I deliberately wasted the money. Now that I've proven myself, and meet the appropriate standards, can I have CDP's job please?
Now, now; any more of that and I'll have to visit you in my brown Volvo and demand beer for my silence!

[splitbrain]

Remember PPRuNe is only anonymous to the casual observer. If "they" really want to know who you are then they can find out. So stay the right side of classified stuff!

A fact that many on e-goat seem blissfully unaware of as they pour out their bile and vitriol and make defamatory, even threatening remarks against anyone who has the gall to try to make them act as if they are in a military organisation.
You are not anonymous :rolleyes:

[Biggus]

Wrong - we are all anonymous, it's just that some of us are more anonymous than others!!

Remember, just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they are not out to get you!!

[Two's in]

As a serving member of HM Forces you have obligations and loyalties that our civilian or non-serving brethren do not. Whether commissioned or non-commissioned, your oath of allegiance requires you conduct yourself and your communications in a fairly restricted manner in which your opinion of Her Majesties' servants and officers, and their policies, are neither sought nor required. Should you find yourself puzzled or at variance with such orders or directives (as most of us are at some point) you are expected to demonstrate the leadership or initiative invested in you to resolve the matter using the means available to you. Whether you think Commanders' interviews or Redress of Grievance are effective or not is academic, those are the means by which you may adress your dissatisfaction with the Service.

All Junior NCO's will know that reasonable "whining" is a function of the command structure. Service personnel are encouraged to get things into the open to a reasonable degree, and complain to the local chain of command. What must be recognized and prevented is the more serious undermining of good conduct and military discipline. Every situation is different, but open and frequent remarks regarding the effectiveness of senior commanders or Service policy are examples that local commanders are expected to nip in the bud.

Dragging HM Forces into the twenty-first century, where every decision can be openly and publicly questioned on fora such as these changes nothing. The obligations and loyalties placed upon you require that you use the system. Nobody ever asked whether you thought the sytem was fair, or easy, or resolved anything, you gave up your right to reasoned debate when you signed your terms of service. This is not a democracy, it is the military. Obviously the number of PVR's shows that more and more people are realizing that fact, albeit after the event.

Comments on here that attempt to short circuit or avoid the chain of command can be viewed 2 ways - very brave, or very cowardly. If you have tried all the other ways and this is your last shot at bringing some grave injustice to the public's eye, good for you. If you are a barrack room lawyer who knows all of his/her rights, but cares nothing for the obligations placed upon you, freely reveals sensitive information to the public here, but lacks the moral fibre to use the chain of command, then your time would probably be better spent holding court in the Naafi bar while waiting for a discharge.

You signed up - nobody made you do it. Loyalty is not an obvious two-way street in the Military, you are exected to make the largest investment.

[It's Not Working]

Two' in

Spot on

[Pontius Navigator]

senior commanders or Service policy are examples that local commanders are expected to nip in the bud.

Comments on here that attempt to short circuit or avoid the chain of command can be viewed 2 ways - very brave, or very cowardly. If you have tried all the other ways and this is your last shot at bringing some grave injustice to the public's eye, good for you.

Nothing wrong here, in theory, it is in the practice where it fails.

With leaning one's immediate chain of command is under as much pressure as you may be. A 'whinge' carried up the line eventually runs out of both speed and administrative capacity to change.

OTOH several years ago (many) I made an observation on how a particular regulation did not seem to be applied correctly. From my perspective it was an irritant. My OC Admin, OTOH, recognised that my personal observation actually affected several hundred people on the unit and its correct application meant that many airmen received a welcome and unexpected and regular cash injection. I got a very nice letter from OC AW for bringing the matter to his attention.

More recently I did not even receive a s*d *ff reply let alone a thank you. There is so much pressure that we get whinging and there is so much whinging because of the pressure. The armed forces federation would provide a more private forum rather than Prune.

On that matter, anyone I have spoken to would not trust or support a 'once-size fits all' federation. They would want a single service and non-commissioned forum; anything run by officers would be preceived as run for officers.

[Tourist]

2's in
Military life has always been, however an agreement between the Service and the servant. One might consider it a contract, of sorts. We give loyalty and service, and foolishly expect certain things in return.
If that is the case, then I know which side has broken faith first.

[zedder]

Loyalty IS a two-way street,
People are voting with their feet!:ugh:

[flipster]

I strongly disagree that a Service's loyalty to its subordinates should be 'optional'. To say so is the twisted reasoning of a 'manager' and is far too common, I fear. := :=

What the Services need are true LEADERS who are unafraid to take responsibilty for their own actions and those of their subordinates. In order to do so, these leaders have to be loyal and trust their troops so that, in turn, the leaders EARN the trust and loyalty of those they aspire to command. If that trust is missing, the subordinates will not willingly follow their supposed commander and discipline will falter - why should anyone lay their lives on the line for an untrustworthy leader (I include Bliar in that!)?

Perhaps the sheer weight of dissent that is apparent almost everywhere is indicative that we do NOT currently have much in the way of leadership, NOR any loyalty from above?


Loyalty is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS a 2 way street!

[BEagle]

"Perhaps the sheer weight of dissent......"

Surely you mean 'dissatisfaction' rather than 'dissent'?

[Mmmmnice]

I like the concept of the 'virtual crewroom' - if one is serious about trying to get something changed then there are many more 'recognised' ways of sticking one's head above the parapet - and if one strays into classified matters then expect to get reamed out when or if they they can be bothered to track you down! I'm sure the conspiracy theorists have thoughts about the likelyhood of 'Big Brother' being able to readily identify a Prunist - WK are you listening?

[flipster]

Beags

I suppose that would be more accurate.......probably!

Flip

[Blakey875]

5 years ago there was a bit of a witch hunt to ferret out ABIW at Lyneham as his comments were deregotory on any matter and although he was full of crap and criticism he never offered a solution. If he was found he would have been made a MAOT for life! As it is now we know his identity we find he is harmless and a good source of entertainment!

[denachtenmai]

You can write to me at HMP.. Thankyou PompeySailor, I now have to wipe my keyboard! :)

[BEagle]

The PPRuNe witch hunts started during Saif Sareea II.....

Personally, I reckon that Saif Sareea II marked the tipping point which started the gathering retention problem amongst aircrew. Before then there was a bit of smooth to offset the rough; since then it has all gone downhill at an ever-accelerating rate.

But at least airline prospects are now looking rosier than ever for most ex-military pilots.

[Pontius Navigator]

One proof positive of pprune was the discussion of UCAVs in Class G airspace. It was very clearly an official fishing trip and that was effectively confirmed when an article appeared later in Aviate.

I have been at a discussion forum where a different BB was discussed and a particular member was mentioned by non de plume and also that he had been given a 3 month ban!

Oh yes, it is watched.

[QFIhawkman]

Oh yes, it is watched.

It sure is. I had a one way chat (standing, sans cafe) with my CO last year after discussing 4FTS matters on a site. I had my bottom well and truly spanked.
They ARE watching. And you are NOT anonymous. IP addresses give a lot away to those with the right knowledge and databases.
I'm very careful what I talk about these days.

[flipster]

Yes PPrune is watched - by MoD, the media and our enemies (most probably). That is why we should be careful to balance genuine gripes against media attention or giving away sensitive stuff. Personally, I think Ppruners get it right nearly most of the time. People have had the sense to remove posts when prompted by fellow pruners so we can be self regulating.

I suspect that now their airships do see this site as a 'gauge' of feelings but of course, they would never admit as such. It does mean however, that the rank and file do have another means to bring problems to the attention of higher office when the chain of command has failed - which it can do - as many officers above flt lt are political animals and are often reluctant to bring problems to the notice of their superiors. Ain't life a bitch!?

The media scan Pprune for juicy bits for use on quiet news days or to help certain campaigns. This info can be of use both to media but is also useful to MoD and the ranks; a 3-way flow, if you like.

I suspect the enemy are just plain confused by our apparent bitching and critisism of direction, yet our boys and girls on the front line keep coming at them. Mr bin Laden, if you are reading, remember this:

When on the job, there is no better professional fighting force than the Brit Mil - we just wish we always had the right tools for the job so we could get out Irq and Afg much quicker and with less loss of life all round; of which i am sure you would approve!

[tucumseh]

Beagle

“Surely you mean 'dissatisfaction' rather than 'dissent'?”


I think you are right.

The MoD does not tolerate those who rail against policy – that is dissent. I accept this, although I do not agree with all policies. Few do. The rules are clear; one can query a policy through your management, but if it remains and you are not content, then you accept the decision or resign. This is the same for Servicemen and Civilians.

However, I believe it is a duty to complain, moan, groan, whinge and generally bitch to, and about, those who openly ignore their obligations. For example, those who seemingly make the rules up as they go along, or always take the easy option, invariably to suit themselves and their career – and bu**er everyone else. That, I believe, is expressing dissatisfaction and exercising ones freedom of speech.

Those who do not express dissatisfaction in this way are often abrogating their responsibility, both to their employers and their fellow Servicemen/colleagues. For example, the man who deliberately wastes money, thus avoiding a legal obligation, is clearly at fault – and MoD policy supports this. Theoretically, it is a very serious offence. However, it is long established practice to berate, bully and harass the person who complains about waste, and provide top cover to those who knowingly practice it. Another example – I fully agree with the policies on airworthiness and safety, but abhor the practice of ignoring them when it compromises time or cost. These, and many other such examples, do no favours to those at the sharp end and should not be tolerated; and nor should those who condone or practice them.

Feel free to disagree with me – management do! Under FOI no less, so I suppose it’s alright to make this post.

[ancientaviator62]

When I did my law degree loyalty was defined as a two way street. It was the allegiance owed by those below to those above and the PROTECTION afforded by those above to those below. We hear a lot from those above about about (blind ) allegiance but precious little about protection in it's wider context. In the modern era this can be summarised as a 'common duty of care'. Given the state of some of the equipment that has to be used this duty is not being carried out.

[Jimlad1]

I had it on very good authority that both CGS and CAS recieve daily briefs on the content of PPRUNE and ARRSE.

[GPMG]

I had it on very good authority that both CGS and CAS recieve daily briefs on the content of PPRUNE and ARRSE.

Oh....right........ Hi CAS!!!!!......hows it hanging?

[RETDPI]

I had it on very good authority that both CGS and CAS recieve daily briefs on the content of PPRUNE and ARRSE.
Well I guess it would be a turn up for the books if they actually got round to read it for themselves.

[GlosMikeP]

Beagle

..... The rules are clear; one can query a policy through your management, but if it remains and you are not content, then you accept the decision or resign. This is the same for Servicemen and Civilians.

However, I believe it is a duty to complain, moan, groan, whinge and generally bitch to, and about, those who openly ignore their obligations. ......... That, I believe, is expressing dissatisfaction and exercising ones freedom of speech.

Those who do not express dissatisfaction in this way are often abrogating their responsibility, both to their employers and their fellow Servicemen/colleagues.
Nothing to be disagreed with at all. It would be a truly worrying state of affairs if all were gagged simply to save the guilty from embarrassment.

That's precisely the right time to put ones head above the parapet and cry foul and to hell with the consequences.

The only trouble is, though, that a few PPRuNe-ers post here thinking they are anonymous and can say what they please with impunity, forgetting that the law prevails and they can be identified and found.

Damn good place to leave some clear messages as long as they're legal and well presented. Where better?

[RETDPI]

Ring –Ring
“CDS………here.”
“ Is that Senior Flight Cadet Stirrup!”
“Yessir!”
“Gotcha!”
“I do wish you’d stop doing that Torps, the joke is starting to wear a bit thin. Anyway, what is it man ? I’m a bit pressed for time this morning”
“Well Sir, have you been reading that Prune site on the Internet recently?”
“Every night Torps –it gives me my first smile of the day comparing what’s said on Prune to what I get briefed on about it every morning.”
“ Well Sir, I do think that the lads are pretty close to having had enough.”
“You’ve noticed, Torps?”
“Of course Sir, but I think there is something we can do about it, have you got a minute?”
“Let me see now . BA Systems Breakfast briefing, Lockheed Martin Coffee session, EADS lunch time mini-golf , no problem Torps - shoot!’
“ Well Sir ,have you looked at your commissioning scroll recently? You know –the little document framed in the corner of your office, that was signed by Sir Andrew Humphrey all those years ago”
“ Haven’t really had the time recently Torps; got to get on with the real world , If you haven’ t noticed.”
“Absolutely Sir, but read the bit half way down after the “exercise and well discipline in their duties, bit”
“ Er…Um…. Officers Airman and Airwomen as may be…....”
“Keep going, Sir.”
“And use your best endeavours to keep them in good order and..”
“That’s it Sir . Stop right there..!”
“Keep them in good Order?”
“Yes Sir, By your best endeavours”
“So,Torps ?”
“And who is it signed by, Sir ?”
“Andrew Humphrey’ “
“And above”
“By Her Majesty’s command.”
“And whose Government is it Sir ?”
“H.M.G. –Her Majesty's of course”
“So, If the Government is blocking your best endeavours to look after the lads and laddesses , surely you have a duty as an officer, indeed as the most Senior Military Staff officer in the land - to go straight to the Monarch and get the P.M. carpeted.
“ Oh, Come on Torps ,this is the stuff of revolution”
“No sir, with respect, it is actually the stuff of duty. Look , we’ve come up the slippery pole pretty well –remember the “Readers Digest Article”? . This current lot in power are pretty well now rejected by all and sundry. Frankly Sir, I don’t really think either of us really need Directorships in Industry to keep us in comfort from now on . I should think a public reaffirmation of our commitment to our responsibilities to the Monarchy would go down a bomb with the Country at large under the present situation.
“ I’ll think about it –is H.M in residence?”
‘Well Sir, the Union Flag is currently flying over Buck House ,though I gather all that is all being phased out next year with the planned U.K. break up.”
“ I might just give it a whirl, Torps, and sound it out over there’
“ Well done, Sir ! And just to keep it quiet, I wouldn’t take the staff car –use your own transport”
‘Bloody good thinking Torps –don’t let the buggers catch on, Eh”
“And one last thing, Sir”
“What’s that Torps?”
“ Be careful when you drive round the back sir , Those Corgis are likely to savage anybody on a Lambretta.”

[flipster]

If only.........

[QFIhawkman]

The stuff of a very wierd imagination!

(He'd never use a staff car, he'd grab an A109!)

But other than that, damn funny. Well done that man.