Different rules for AT and FJ aircrew

[tonkaboy]

Having just spent a night in Cyprus whilst flying further east. I was a little confused when the Tri-Star crew spent the night off-base, whilst I and the other Tornado crews, whom were flying in the trail, had to spend the night on-base. Shouldn't we all have the same rules? Moreover, I was baffled when the crew said they just put the bill on their sqn UIN. Akrotiri had 10 free rooms in the mess that night that were fit for fast-jet crews to stay in. If the on-base accom is too noisy for a Tri-Star crew, then what about the Tornado crews whom have a much harder job not only flying, but AAR as well?

[TheInquisitor]

AT crews are almost always co-located, for obvious reasons. Which 'mess' were the rooms in? You may be shocked to realise, as a fast-jet mate, that we have (gasp, horror!) NCO Aircrew as well (and JR stewards on the shiney fleet). In which case, 10 rooms in the 'Os' mess wouldn't cut it - or even 100 rooms - if there is no space in the SNCOs / JRs accomodation.

[tonkaboy]

Thank you for your reply. I honestly don't understand the AT system, so will revoke any comment, if it's incorrect. However, in this case there were more than enough free rooms in all on-base messes. Indeed, the crew appeared to make very little effort in ascertaining the number of available rooms on-base. Furthermore, having served in Ali-al-salem, I could never understand why the AT crews would stay in Q8 city, whilst all the crews flying Op RESINATE sorties (24hrs a day) stayed in the pits, where I can asure you, there was more than enough on-base accom.

[boyassassin]

then what about the Tornado crews whom have a much harder job not only flying, but AAR as well?

Harder job? What trying to keep up with the tanker? Or trying to climb as high?
Do behave tonka boy, as for your other comments who do you think is really doing a job out east?:=

AT (Tac) rules!

[TheInquisitor]

Have no idea myself about your system either, fella - but our GASOs lay down minimum requirements for accomodation that we tend to adhere to when not on deployed ops (ie transiting) - and therefore not having an additional risk like disturbed crew rest signed off on.

It may well just be that Akrotiri were doing the standard stacker's trick - "You can't have those rooms 'cos somebody else might need them" - or they may well have been already booked for somebody else. Also, we would usually know whether we are planned to be on- or off-base before we leave home base - the classic is when the APCs are on, and there is hardly any on-base accomodation available!

Oi, Boyassasin - be nice to tonkaboy now! They're not as battle-hardened as we are nowadays and might not be able to take your fierce banter.....:E

[tonkaboy]

Without any thought, the guys doing the "real job" out east are those on the ground. Beyond this, the next would be the helo boys (**** and tough job at the moment - a lot of respect). After this, I wouldn't compare FJ (GR7/GR9 & GR4) and AAR/AT assets, as for both fraternities there is very little risk and comparable effort; long hours, but little danger. Never self glorify yourself. That was not the point of my post. You have missed the point: You, me, the Pax on your ac should ALL have the same deal.

[boyassassin]

After this, I wouldn't compare FJ (GR7/GR9 & GR4) and AAR/AT assets, as for both fraternities there is very little risk and comparable effort; long hours, but little danger.

Its obviously been a long time from you've been out east. Please refer yourself to your Into for an up to date ops brief. :ugh:

[tonkaboy]

Where do you think I'm posting this from......................It ain't Alaska.........

Anyway, this is NOT a post about who does what on ops. We would both look foolish compared to the Army, Marines.....etc.

All I was sincerely interested in, was how two forces can have such a disparity in accom regs. The transit job nor AAR in a FJ are difficult. Why not join us in the bar for a brandy sour?

[lastmanstanding]

As the Inquis buddy says its our GASOs that drive the decision. Rank kinda goes out the window in AKT for us NCA(gasp):eek: and JRs(bigger gasp):ugh: cos we all end up accom'd together for a number of reasons. Namely we must be in quiet/air con'd if poss-most JR transit blocks wouldn't do that for our cabin crew. Hence we all end up-if there is available space-on base, in the block 100 ish series because they are deemed the best/quietest/coolest blocks for transit. There is also a duty of care issue for the a/c Capt-eg if he had a solitary female 18yo SAC svc or AS. This accom is fine for O's & SNCOs because of the prox of the mess but the JRs have to walk-no MT avail for transit JRs-round trip of nearly 2 miles-to eat.
If AKT can't supply that then its F95:O and find somewhere more suitable. We dont make the rules and at the end of the day a 2 pax crew can be more easily accom'd than 10-17pax crew. Know it must stick in a few throats seeing this happening. End of the day the most junior Air Steward is on the same crew duty and rest rules as the a/c Capt. Oh and the same FSI! :ok:

[boyassassin]

Would love to but I'm down town with my crew!:cool:

[SAR Bloke]

Why not join us in the bar for a brandy sour?

I guess you're not far enough East yet then??

[tonkaboy]

In that case, that's where we are different. If I was down-town with the crew, I would be all messed up on ale looking forward to liberating a lapdancer from her g-string or noshing on a kebab. Perhaps that's why we aren't allowed off-base...............no more red meat................

[boyassassin]

Perhaps that's why we aren't allowed off-base...............no more red meat................

No that's not the case, it's probably because you need supervision!!! Oh, I do fancy a kebab!!

[tonkaboy]

Why did I know you would mention the kebab and not the lapdancer?

[tonkaboy]

I guess you're not far enough East yet then??
Any further east and I would lose a day..........
Would go further, but the AT went U/S

[Runaway Gun]

I can't say that I agree with the rules myself, and I've argued your case before.

However, try not to rain on the AT's parade, just because they might have a luxury at hand. All too often I see aircrew from different roles p!ss all over the other guys' benefits, when they should simply spend their efforts improving their own situation. I'd like to think that we are all on the same side.

[tonkaboy]

Run-away gun. A fair point.

[glum]

And one day when you're too old and slow to fly fast planes, you might find yourself flying slower ones, and you'll be sorry you shouted so loudly to scrap the perks of the transport fleet!:=

[QFIhawkman]

And one day when you're too old and slow to fly fast planes, you might find yourself flying slower ones, and you'll be sorry you shouted so loudly to scrap the perks of the transport fleet!:=

So by your own admission there (careful what you say in future!) there are perks on the transport fleet. Ergo, there are different standards of accomodation on the AT fleet.
Be careful mate. I know the AT fleet generally stay in hotels as a matter of course, for generally obvious reasons. But if you check the regs, you'll find that you SHOULD be staying in the nearest Military establishment where available instead of a hotel. Think you'll find that at Cyprus there's a Military Unit fairly close by.

You guys kick the arse out of the system, and fair play to you when you can get away with it. But don't act all offended and surprised when you are caught out.

[glum]

Not offended at all - just counting the few blessings I have, and suggesting we all keep schtum about it!

[lastmanstanding]

The fact of the matter is the logistics at AKT for an all rank crew-ERGO an AT/AAR tanker crew/Nimrod etc.. with a crew of 10-17(dependant on role etc) need to be accomodated at the same place if at all poss. AKT is the prime eg with the block 100 series.An officers transit block-yet used by all on an AT crew-NCA:ooh: and heaven forbid JRs!!:eek: Not a one upmanship thing going on here between FJ & AT, just the rules as dictated by 2 Gp. A fast jet 2 person crew is a lot easier to accom than the trials and tribs of a single unit crew of say 14 of ranks from Gp Capt to SAC. If AKT cant provide quiet,single/whereposs,air con'd accom for ALL CREW(pilots to Air Stewards/SVCs) at a base then accom must be found elsewhere.END OF STORY! The Capt also has a duty of care for all of his crew if its multi rank/multi gender.Next time you fly in ask AKT ops why the form 95 has been signed for a crew of multi ranks yet the Rx'r on a trail will both be in the mess(or four of/six etc.) .The answer will be to do with GASOs. The days of the AT fleet swanning about regularly in hotels, and on a different rate to everyone else is long gone.:bored:
Hawk chap its nowt to do with being "caught out" as you so put it.In this day and age, if the A**e is kicked out of it then it wont be long til that Capt is caught out. :=

[Dan Winterland]

If AKT can't supply that then its F95:


They've never been able to supply a suitable service for transit crews. It's been an important transit base for over 40 years and it's always been cr@p. With the hassle of a long multi sector AT or tanking route, then to have to spend three hours of your valueable rest sorting out niff naff and admin which should have been done before you arrive by people who can't be bothered because working spoils their three year long holiday in the sun - then the easy solution seem the best.

Once ended up at Akro on an unsheduled stop - therefore no towel. The OM couldn't provide one. Next morning, while waiting for the mess clerk to arrive so that we could pay our 14 pence mess bills (don't try leaving without paying!) for which we delayed the departure for one hour, I saw the mess suggestions book. So I wrote 'Please provoide towels for transiting aircrew. If not, please can you make the curtains more absorbant?' Earned me an interview back home!

I now work for a decent employer. Don't have these problems anymore.

p.s. Akro brandy sours are a well known flight safety hazard.

[BEagle]

It is not up to the crew to decide their accommodation requirements - AKR Ops have always known the rules and have, to my mind, always applied them reasonably well.

Sometimes, for a quickie night stop, it was far more convenient to stya on base and do the kebab thing in the evening. Whilst at other times, for example trying to sleep before a night departure to land in some desert $hithole in the dark, it was much better to stay in a quiet hotel than have to tolerate 9 little red Hawks making pretty patterns with coloured smoke waking you up every few minutes.....

A 1Gp whingeogram came around the AT fleet in 2002 - it seemed that some AT ar$e from a base not in Oxfordshire had been leaning on AKR Ops demanding that his crew were all co-located off-base 'for operational reasons'. Which was bolleaux. Just let the AKR Ops guys get on with their jobs and accept what you're given.

Incidentally, at Lajes, 10% Carlos always tried to give the receiver crews the best hotel. Who got the worst? Well, after their teenage wireless operators tried to thieve something from the hotel they'd been booked into, a certain fleet rarely found itself staying in the better hotels......

Dan - the bedspreads were better than the curtains if the OM couldn't find any towels. You never knew who had been wiping what on the curtains before....:eek:

[comedyjock]

Surely there is no need to be accomodated in the same place. By that arguement there should only be an all ranks mess at your base of operations whether home or abroad.
There may be an arguement that timings of flights may change but mobile phones are a wonderful thing and with all personnel on the station then messages can easily be passed.
I think you are using the system to your advantage (I would to) but why not admit the truth and say you are in hotels cause you can get away with it and not crew duty horlicks.

[Gnd]

Chaps, not that cleaver posting all your perks on here. Mr Lean, the NAO and the rest of the hard stretched forces will read this and realise that this a real perk and will have it off you. They can't even get guns!!!! You want to keep all the cake - don't tell anyone you have it? (I flew with Tonka's mates and we passed AKT to stop in Crete for the night and yes AKT was open! Stone throwing and all that.

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Nige - not sure what your point is, but I think you will find that 7 Sqn have been awarded the most honours in recent years incl
2xDFC* and a CGC/DFC combo.

[whowhenwhy]

Guys, it may be a little late for that now.....:sad:

[electric.sheep]

AT crews are almost always co-located, for obvious reasons.

No its not obvious!!!!! Been to Camp Bastion, that's co-location for an obvious reason, but on RAF base - bunch of prima donna's

[vecvechookattack]

AT crews are almost always co-located, for obvious reasonsComplete and utter bollocks. There is absolutely no reason what so ever to be "co located"

[PTT]

Complete and utter bollocks. There is absolutely no reason what so ever to be "co located"
The reason: Communication. Mobile phones are great, but will the RAF provide one to every member of the AT fleet? I think not.

Or are you suggesting that we use our own phones? :eek:

[FFP]

As the Inquis buddy says its our GASOs that drive the decision. :

To all FJ mates,

If we could, we'd go down the Episkopiana everytime and take you with us, whilst treating you to a meal at the Village Inn whilst showing you how to fill out that form the J Eng O gave you.

It's not our call ! We pitch up at AKT and Ops will have decided where you are staying dependant on the accom plot. Simple as that.

[ShyTorque]

Not really a good idea to air dirty washing in public, Eh, chaps?

For example: Hotels? Why aren't you living in 7 x 9s, or co-located on adjacent camp beds in a farmer's barn, like in my day? Hurumph. :*

P.S. The reason for the grass growing greener is often due to the greater amount of bull$#1t on the other side of the fence.

[glum]

Gents why are we shooting at each other again?

We are not the enemy.

We all play our part in this, despite the hindrance from above. Some work longer, some are braver, some endure boredom for hours on end, some endure incredible pressure on a daily basis. But we all do our little bit to try and keep this machine rolling, as that is our job. We don't choose our posting, or daily workload, and sniping that someone has it better than you is simply pointless.

Perhaps we'd be better trying to raise the accomodation levels for all, rather than bringing down the standard to rock bottom so we're all equal?

[BellEndBob]

Unbelievable. Aircrew arguing in public about who gets the best Hotel and who is the 'hardest'.

Is it any bloody wonder your groundcrews are voting with their feet and that elements of the general public and Parliament think you (we) are a bunch of overpaid, whingeing, pompous show ponies.

Grow up. Ther's a war (or two) on.

Oh well, back to my tent.....again.

Merry Christmas.

[Fox_4]

Thats the funniest thing I have ever read!!

"We need to co-located in air conditioned rooms for crew rest blah blah blah"

Can`t you arrange a wheels plot in the 5-6 hour transit that will pick you all up outside the relevant accomodation at AKR.
Just having come back through AKR, its not that bloody hot there just now, harldy a crying need for air con!!
But I suppose the stewards do need a good nights sleep to shout "JUICE!!!" at me when I ride onboard.

It seems to me the FJ boys just get on with it in crap accom, maybe we should all push the GASOs rules on crew rest harder , or maybe truckies could just MAN UP!!

Its like a spilt air force sometimes. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[FFP]

Fox 4

Can`t you arrange a wheels plot in the 5-6 hour transit that will pick you all up outside the relevant accomodation at AKR ?

No. You don't find out where you are staying till you get into OPS. They could do it on the crew bus though once they've found out (which they quite often do)


Anyway, when you go further east than AKT on Ops Fox 4, then you can have a say ;)

[FFP]

3. The decision of which crews are located where is that of the AKT accomodation cell.

And that, my fellow PPRuNer's, is the be all and end all of this discussion.

[Twopack]

It seems to me the FJ boys just get on with it in crap accom, maybe we should all push the GASOs rules on crew rest harder , or maybe truckies could just MAN UP!!


As they say, any fool can suffer crap accommodation!! :{

[Antique Driver]

FJ/RW ppruners:-

Not all AT crews are hotel-habiting, shiny aircraft flying, rule spouting, wannabe airline crews.

I for one have spent the last 5 years on enduring ops in various theatres and can count the nights in a hotel room on one hand (and this has been when my customers have tasked me somewhere nice!!)

AKT is well known for accm faffs and AT crews pulling the 'GASO' line.

There is more than enough on-base accm including a nice block behind the Officers' Mess paid for by 2Gp for transit crews.

Please don't tar all AT crews with the same brush.

Shiny fleet - man up and dry your eyes. There are boys and girls on ops who have more to worry about than if the brandy sour is chilled!!:=

[RETDPI]

Oh Dear,
What became of "Horses, Men, Officers" as our priority in looking after those whom the Monarch had trusted us to "keep in good order and discipline."

[Ventre A Terre]

"including a nice block behind the Officers' Mess paid for by 2Gp for transit crews"

Would this be the nice shiney accommodation that as soon as it was finished was quickly filled with the AKR permanent staff? I only had the pleasure of staying there once - the rest of the time it has been the APC blocks or 100 series. The same thing happened with the 200 series blocks.:*

[HeliAviator]

What's a hotel?

Oi, pull that tent flap in!

:}

[Specaircrew]

Oh dear, Tonkaboys lack of understanding appears to be shared by others who should know better! Anyone who travels to AKT on a regular basis knows that the accom cell don't allocate your accomodation until you actually arrive! In fact it's impossible to get AKT to let you know whether you'll be on or off base before you arrive. (ARCs always prefer Tanker/Receiver crews to be colocated).

99% of AT nightstops(and we're there every week) are spent in Block 101/102 enjoying the lovely 1950's facilities. There isn't any point enduring a 30 min bus ride to a grotty 2 star hotel after you've just done a 20 hour day when you can be drinking a cold beer in a grotty 2 star accomodation block in minutes!!!

[Wrathmonk]

Excellent...not! Can't wait to get to work on Monday to have this rammed down my throats by the Army boys down the corridor. As if we haven't had enough bad press over Akrotiri movers, state of the AT fleets (Sky man stuck in Kabul) etc we now have a pi55ing contest amongst ourselves.

Isn't the new 2 Gp chief an ex heli-driver. And doesn't he sign off GASOs. I reckon it will be tents for all soon so make the most whilst you can!!!:E

[Confucius]

..."Horses, Men, Officers"...

That's no way to talk about WRAF types.

[Training Risky]

Now I'm purely playing Devil's Advocate here...

But why do the SAC hosties need air conditioning and uninterrupted sleep? Is the danger of a half-defrosted meal too great to risk once airborne?:E

[L J R]

...and what exactly do they do on a trail??

[Specaircrew]

I'd check your meal for 'special addiitives' carefully next time you fly in an airliner! I assume you don't realise that the primary duty of cabin crew is the safety of the pax? It may seem trivial to you but getting all the wives/kids/sleeping squaddies etc out of the correct exit down a properly deployed slide (then getting out last) from a burning jet is quite important to some!

[Specaircrew]

He's quite probably one of the flight deck crew that'll be flying the next leg (augmented crews are the norm for some operational flights). Even fat blokes need rest if they're to fly safely during a 24 hour crew duty period!

[Twopack]

By the way, what about the fat block down the back end who in flying suit with more badges than a formula one racing driver, stretched out in three seats to himself...."



Ahhh, that'll be the Movers then...;)

[SidHolding]

On det with Nimrods in the past, Gib actually, the O's and NCO's were on base (accommodation available) and the JR's were off base (no accommodation available). Had the same thing when we deployed to St Mawgan also. Simple, if there's space on base use it.

[goldcup]

And........ relax!

It's because of $hit like this that I PVR'd. If you have no experience of being an AT/AAR operator, I would suggest that your opinion is largely bse on myth and hearsay. The "all truckies stay in 5* hotac and play the allowances system" myth ended in 2001 with the advent of Ex Saif Sareea II. I would love to have spent the last five years checking in to luxury.

If you were pax on RAF AT, do you seriously want any of the crew to be anything less than 100% when it comes to safety issues? Really? Even if you are a steely eyed GR7/Herc/SH dude who sleeps in a tent on ops? What's the point on saving a few quid if your safety might (and I stress might) depend on the actions of that fat SAC wearing desert flying suit that you sorely covet (the flying suit, not the SAC). Do YOU know how to operate the doors/run an evacuation drill/deploy the slides? Doesn't really matter how good you are at your job, the afore mentioned actions are the preserve of the steward you love to whinge about.

If you are on a trail, either as the boss of a FJ sqn or a tanker techie, the AARC inevitably requests that EVERYONE is co-located. It's just easier. Placing some people in a hotel and others in the block at AKT means that there is a difficult transport plot to think about. OpO 06/01 lays out the power invested in an AARC- it really is a ridiculous amount of executive authority to place in the hands of a JO. However, despite this, all an AARC can do is REQUEST co-location of all personnel in AKT. The accommodation cell has the ultimate say.

Why should AT crew and pax not all stay together? Are you serious? Just think about how awful the prospect of being pax in RAF AT is- would you not want to go out and get utterly plastered if the chance arose? Finger-poke the captain about the inevitable delay/revitin/why the fat SAC steward has a desert flying suit and you don't? It's just a $hit idea. And guess what? The cheap (and like it or not, we are very very budget driven) option is to put the crew (10 or so) in hotac and the hundred or so pax in service accommodation.

Have any of you been in the standard AT/AAR hotels in Cyprus? I'd love to tell you that they are palatial, with 48" LCD TVs in the toilet and 24hr on demand massages, however the truth is they are utter toilets. Block 100/101/102 (delete as applicable) are no better or worse, and they are without the 45 minute transit to Limassol.

Please do not read this as a lament as to how difficult the life of a shiny fleet bloke is- believe me I now exactly which side my bread is buttered on. And I'm off. If it was as good as some of you thought I'd be staying. There are preconceptions on both sides- my question is, why are there sides?

[exvicar]

As an aside. I've just met a tanker dude & he had massive sideburns. Now, I am sure these were the type of sideburns that would never be allowed on a FJ Sqn. Are there different rules for sideburns? Do hotels in Cyprus have shaver points? Is it a requirement?

[lastmanstanding]

Eloquently put GC.
Just out of interest was the perpetrator of this thread heading to the Deed maybe block 41000 ish?? Curious seeing he is tonka boy?Maybe he fancies a wee det up at the wee B word with some other AT types or even the big word further north with an "AT" kinda job. End of the day AKT ops/accom make up their mind where we go.
I really couldnt care less cos I dont have to sleep on my BA in the block or wherever they put me.

[L J R]

Why did a perfectly worded and legitimate question about accommodation (which, BTW WAS answered - like it or lump it) end up in a slagging match between the Queens so called finest????. For F**ck sake guys - lighten up!

[Gnd]

LMS, well done, you have just set the AT cause back 10 years. Never can tell who your mates are!

[Fill 2 fool]

Gents,Gents,Gents

All this squabbling wont help anyone. At the end of the day the rules are different for both fleets and just dont even mention our RW brethren shall we.

I for one will not miss all this inter-fleet nonsense when I go in a year or two. There are always folk a lot less better off in this mans flying game.
My hat off to the lads and lasses that endure the bottom of the scale in not only accom but security on the ground. Having spent the odd night somewhere scary it kinda makes this all seem over exaggerated?

[lastmanstanding]

GND
In case I was mis-interpreted which I think I have been, I meant it is "refreshing" change not to sleep on ones BA when we at places like AKT NOT I couldnt care less.
A wee touch of over imbibed not reading the full text before sending.
SOZ:\

[Gnd]

LMS, great - I agree then.

[lastmanstanding]

one team one fight :ok: :ugh:

[jonesthepilot]

In my day, we assumed that the quality of accom was inversely proportional to the quality of flying you had. Hence, boring flying - 5* accom. Fabulous hands on flying - go live in a leaky tent! The grass is certainly not greener outside, unless of course you judge it on the quality of hotels, and even here there are tw*ts who can whinge about one 4* compared to another!! Fight the good fight guys, wish I was still with you!

[TOPBUNKER]

Erm, check the GASO is it co-location or colocation or collocation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colocation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collocation refer!

In any event why can't FJ drivers perform straight in (quiteish) approaches to land at AKR.
There are always crews trying to sleep during the day.
Showing off to the beach idlers should have ceased after a certain F4 f*** up at the start of GW1!!!!!
I.E. the SPLASH.
Remember the lunchtime Champagne?

[Wwyvern]

During Gulf War -1, in which UK presence in the Gulf dissuaded the then Iraqi government from invading Kuwait- we were ferrying two new Hunters from UK to the Gulf to replace two used Hunters and return them to UK.

We were outbound over the day in which our FGA Squadrons were transferred from Fighter Command to Transport Command (38Gp). So we carried both FC and TC papers. Arriving late in the evening at RAF Nicosia, we two Fg Offs presented the Mover Fg Off with our TC papers. He immediately called us "Sir" and said the transport to take us to the Ledra Palace Hotel in Nicosia would be along shortly.

We didn't care for that, as we wanted a few beers that evening and an early start the next day. Our request for rooms in the OM was met with incredulity and we were told it was impossible. So we replaced our TC papers with the FC papers. This brought about an immediate change in attitude, no more subservience, we were pointed in the general direction of the Mess, and we had to walk.

Nothing much has changed since 1961, then.

[QFIhawkman]

I wasn't aware Rowley Birkin QC had served in the RAF. :}

[pontifex]

Truckies vs the rest has been going on virtually since time immemorial. I first experienced it as a Valiant copilot in the 50s and it became particularly irksome as a tanker driver in the 70s. One of the chief gripes was that the truckies always got the air con accommodation at Cyprue and Gan whilst we sweated it out. I can remenber arriving at Gan after a particularly difficult tanker slot drenched in the proverbial, getting into a bath with flying kit still on, then getting out and letting the evaporation do its bit. Meanwhile a VC10 crew who had landed a few minutes later, having been transported from their air conditioned aircraft to their air conditioned rooms (all singles) could be found, cool as cucumbers in the Blue Lagoon. Such memories still rankle. I am very surprised that it still goes on. The standard GASO response must be as annoying now as it was then.

[TheWizard]

Ffs, does it really matter. As long as you get somewhere to sleep where things that are trying to kill you are not raining down on your head then what does it matter?
I bet the Army are just wetting themselves over this thread.:ugh:

[Mmmmnice]

It's nice to have a quick shufty at Prune, after a few days off, and find you lot going around and around a very familiar buoy!! I must admit that I thought co-location had died out.....whatever. Now we have JPA I can't even work up th strength to claim for anything so knowing that I'm not entitled (being RW) doesn't really hurt. I did stay in a hotel once.. I think... it's only a distant memory. Even lunch stops are a thing of the past as the hardware needs be kept going 100% of the time. At least I don't have to worry about when I go AT - no-one gets that unless they have some sort of physical problem that stops them doing their present job (apparently an enlarged g*t does not count)

[BEagle]

When certain animals face starvation, they start fighting amongst themselves. It seems it's happening here - frustration looking for a scapegoat turns to an easy target.

Oh - and it's 'shufti', by the way.

[goldcup]

Either "shufti" or "shufty" are equally acceptable actually. From the Arabic (colloquial Egyptian, not Modern Standard).

See http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shufti

or http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shufty

If you are going to be pedantic, be correct.....

[TBSG]

I bet the Army are just wetting themselves over this thread.:ugh:

Yep. Gawd bless the Light Blue.

[pvr not dwr]

It is important for both AT & FJ crews to get the required rest even Stewards need their rest. I mean Flying in a Cab thats been serviced by a guy who doesn't warrant a discussion on sleep who averages a 72hr op week with no spares signing up jobs he hasnt time to carry out ignoring MP's all with no sleep. Anyone that thinks i'm painting an "E-goat" picture should avail themselves of the PVR rates of FU engineers returning from the Sand.

I'd want to be awake for when things start to go wrong.

One rule to rule them all and in the darkness bind them?

[MrBernoulli]

Jaysus! Lots of whinging and whining here.

Some talk here about the grass not being greener on the outside. Yeah, on the whole I agree with that. Its not all greener, just different grass. Familiarity ..... contempt ..... etc etc.

One thing I can say is that the 'accomodation' grass where I am is MUCH much, greener. I get my own private porcelain crapper ....... (heavy contented sigh) ....... not one thats been pebble-dashed by an flight engineer whos had too many pints of cochinelli with his kebab. :ok:

[Specaircrew]

Well WE get our own porcelain urinal in Block 102, it's so clean you could almost wash your face in it:) Obviously we only stay there when there's no fast jet mates around, the first sign of a Tonka crew and we're straight downtown just to give them something to whinge about:O

[DownloadDog]

I recently attended Bristol Groundschool to do the ATPl crammer, I was using ELC to part-fund it. Mate from an AT Sqn was doing the same course, and using ELC to part-fund it. HOWEVER, he was allowed to claim Food, Accom, Incidentals and Travel. Me, nothing. Neither of us were/are on resettlement. How does that work?!

[Wrathmonk]

Unless he requires an ATPL for his "job" (not sure what the rules are with all these new-fangled aircraft like 32/45 Sqn etc) or he is on formal resettlement then I would suggest he is not entitled. After all if he is not on duty (ie on resettlement) then he must have taken leave to attend the course (unless its weekends etc) and even truckies can't claim allowances for being on leave (although I stand to be corrected!:E )

The problem with JPA is that it in effect allows you to self authorise pretty much any claim (after all you only have to provide suitable words for the "authority") with only a random percentage change of being subjected to audit (unless he has claimed an advance of rates in which case, if I understand the [unwritten] rules correctly will always be subject to audit).

He has either been badly briefed or may be about to find himself having a wee-chat with a scuffer or two. He would be wise to seek further advice from whats left of PSF/HR :ugh: before hitting the big submit button. Ignorance, however bad the supporting manuals are, is no excuse!

Unless of course he's a truckie-pruner who has read this thread and knew it would cause some gnashing of teeth! And the odd bite!:p

[rudekid]

Download Dog

Nice work.:ugh: Bring it out in the public domain and then it might get stopped for everyone.

Why don't you ask your education section or speak to the AT mate direct. I presume you would lower yourself to speak to someone from an AT Sqn...

Another blue on blue....

Wrathmonk

Another example of think before you post...I will look forward to trying to fXXk you over in apublic forum.

[flyboy007]

Concur RudeKid,

this is vintage Pprune/military. Here is a novel idea..... Instead of trying to bring others down to the perceived lower level of existence and conditions which (some) of you seem to believe you are on, how (outrageous suggestion I know) about, if you believe some people are on a better wicket, you try and get yourselves UP to that standard. Eg if you perceive AT crews to be living the high life in 5* hotels, then instead of trying to bring them down to tents, why not exert your energies trying to get yourself in the position where you are entitled to a (percieved) 5* hotel????

Now, back to the original question of this thread. As the Captain of the tanker on this particular trail, I DID try and get the FJ mates downtown with the tanker crew, and was told in uncertain terms NO. I'd be intrigued to know just what else I should have perhaps done! TonkaBoy, I'm sorry we weren't co located, and I agree it's crap rules/planning whatever, not to mention divisive (and embarassing for me at the time), and frankly, I have no idea why/if the rules differ. ?Have a safe Det.

[Wrathmonk]

rudekid

I thought before posting thanks. You live up to your name! Are you said AT mate then?

If he (and all the other you suggest are also doing it - quote "... bring it out on the public domain and then it might get stopped for everyone.") has nothing to hide and it is perfectly legit nothing I said will f**k him over. Indeed, it may save his gratuity, pension and a criminal record all for a few quid and let everyone else who is seeking an ATPL the knowledge to fill their boots with allowances support. Or is it just a secret allowance for truckies?

But if he is knowingly commiting fraud then he (and I guess by your anger, you) deserve everything they get.

Far from a blue on blue my advice was actually trying to prevent such a thing. The last thing we, the military, needs right now is an AT officer being courts martialled for expense fraud. There have been no names mentioned so it can be nipped in the bud right now.

I look forward to you trying to f**k me over in a public forum. Grow up.

[rudekid]

Wrathmonk

Nothing to do with me at all chap. Just makes me cross that an apparently serving FJ mate would wish to shout about this in public. You should know full well that allowances are interpreted differently in different places. I know full well that some FJ bases interpret allowances rules in different ways to their advantage. I'm not going to mention them here because, as you should know, the stock answer from STC is always to stop the perceived beneficial practice until an investigation has taken place. This inevitably comes down to the lowest financial outlay. So regardless of whether said AT mate was in the right or not, the interpretation of allowances is homogenized to the lowest financial outlay.

Therefore someone loses out.

if he's committing fraud, throw the book at him. But in this day and age, not many people are that stupid over a small amount of money.

I stand by my premise that we shouldn't be talking about this in a open forum. If the original poster had concerns about the AT mates allowances, why not ask direct instead of starting (it's happening) a PiXXXng contest. If he's got real doubts, go through the chain of command. Just don't bring it out here!:hmm:

[HEDP]

Only a couple of questions if I may,

If colocation is critical to flight safety then why are AT crews not required to be colocated on base for 24 hours prior to departure for a route? It seems that the argument defeats itself with that little one! The crews will most probably be most fatigued when commuting to start a sector than at any other time during it.

Why not use service accomodation if available? Surely not to do so would constitute a misuse of public funds.

Why do those Timmy crews wear desert flying suits when other users from differing fleets cant get them for love nor money especially as there are only limited occasions where the Timmy crews expose themselves to the harshness of the desert moonlight?

Why do they plan to arrive in the wee early hours in order to ensure people are kept up all night. Surely, arrive earlier then more night hours to cater for any unscheduled delays without requiring to waste a whole day before departing? Or is it all too inconvenient to start the day in the UK earlier.

Dons Flack Jacket (and thats another thing, what kin use are they when the rounds will come up from below or from the side, not conveniently front to rear),

HEDP

[Wrathmonk]

Rudekid

Glad to see you don't support fraud! Next time someone like DD "outs" an individual I'll just sit back and offer nowt. Enough said, its dragging away from the real thread! Now, tell me again why I can't get an air con hotel room like the steward?!:}

[rudekid]

Wrathmonk

;)

RK

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Cos your not entitled Wrath............:ugh:

As pax, which as you are when sat in the back of Albert, Trishaws and the like the BEANCOUNTERS, i say again the BEANCOUNTERS who should not be confused with the Captain, Co, ALM, Steward, Grd Eng, or SVC have decided that you are entitled to **** all:} ...........so if you want bleat about anyone direct your ire at handbrake house cos those tw@ts ARE to blame!!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Wrathmonk]

Broken

Calm down lad! I'm more than happy to sleep where I'm told, 'twas a bit of idle banter between rudekid and myself to put a "happy" end to an earlier disagreement! Bed will do, en-suite (ie a sink) optional! Besides JPA makes claiming anysort of subsistence a right royal pain in the ar5e and I don't have a co to sort that 5hit for me!:}

Now what if I'm in one of the FJ "chicks" on a trail. I'm now operating crew (in 2 Gp speak) so surely I have the same rights as a steward.:p No reply required, honest - I'm sure it's in this thread somewhere!

However, rather than answer that rhetorical (I'm up to "r" in my night time read!) question can you enlighten this old and bold FJ mate what the f**k "df" alcohol is? Always wondered, probably should know, but I can only think it must be good stuff. And cheap!;)

[Been There...]

...question can you enlighten this old and bold FJ mate what the f**k "df" alcohol is?

Knowing where ABIW comes from I would assume it is Duty Free

[Wrathmonk]

Been There ...

Thank you ... do I feel stooopid! Obviously not quite so always broken, more always-down-route-where-theres-always-a-decent-df-offie!

[Klingon]

I seem to remember that its not up to the AT crew to decide where they stay in Akrotiri! Stn Ops allocate accomodation in accordance with the 2 Gp ASO no matter how much lower lip pouting goes on.

On base OK! Off base bonus!

[dessert_flyer]

Only a couple of questions if I may,
Why not use service accomodation if available? Surely not to do so would constitute a misuse of public funds.
Why do those Timmy crews wear desert flying suits when other users from differing fleets cant get them for love nor money especially as there are only limited occasions where the Timmy crews expose themselves to the harshness of the desert moonlight?
Why do they plan to arrive in the wee early hours in order to ensure people are kept up all night. Surely, arrive earlier then more night hours to cater for any unscheduled delays without requiring to waste a whole day before departing? Or is it all too inconvenient to start the day in the UK earlier.
Dons Flack Jacket (and thats another thing, what kin use are they when the rounds will come up from below or from the side, not conveniently front to rear),
HEDP
HEDP:
Do you really think we have that much influence over all of these issues? As a general rule AT crews stay where they are told to stay, and this includes on base Akrotiri, I, as have many many others spent a lot of time in blocks 101, 102, 145 etc etc. On arrival at said base ops we are allocated our accomodation and now and then get put off base. I believe, and i cant substantiate this, that it is the home bases that insist there FJ crews have first shout at on base accomodation, in an effort to save money, but i stand to be corrected on that one.
As for wearing dessert flying suits, they are available and we are therefore told to wear them, i would suggest that supplu sqn on your unit needs to try a little harder to obtain them, AT crews wear them because we are told too.
As for take off and arrival times, do be real, we again are told when to take off and at what time to land in said places, again doing as we are told.
The wearing of CBA I believe is a command decision, and therefore just pass on the instruction, and try and get others to do as they are told.
With all this doing as you are told, anybody would think we are in the military.

[Twopack]

I'd hoped HEDP had his tongue firmly in cheek when asking why crews choose to arrive when they feel like it...







...surely no-one could be that ignorant?? :hmm:

[buoy15]

This is confusing
This country is fighting a declared War in Afghanistan and Iraq
It is not a General or World War but nevertheless it is a War
We should be adopting war time procedures
AT are stilll using peacetime and training procedures regarding accommodation and special treatment which are Sh*te and I don't give a tuppenny toss about 2 GP GASO's rules regarding sharing
We are in it together and we should look after each other
Shirtsleeve Capts who insist on sleep regimes and air-con rooms need to get real
All OOA accomm should be declared 'transit' and those who arrive last get the tent, might be behind Block 102 - Sorry lads, (and lassies) hard rules

[HEDP]

Lets call it the 'royal they' shall we, no tongue in cheek about it really, let me rephrase it as to why does the RAF choose to do it at this time? Happy now?

Rhetorical question really as AT rarely tends to do things at the customers convenience!

Rant over, and out,

HEDP

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

HED........possibly up your ar@e:ugh:

"Rhetorical question really as AT rarely tends to do things at the customers convenience!"

Are you seriously suggesting that us AT crews go regularly into both current theatres for our own convienience..........:ugh:

The "royal they" that you quote have absolutely no say what so ever in what time "they" arrive anywhere in the world.

AT in all it's guises is scheduled by the transop writers who are almost always working at the behest of our green bretheren as almost all AT is tasked in direct support of the Army.

There will be a raft of "acceptable risk" considerations made by their Air/General ships but the bottom line is that those of us who crew AT simply fly the published transop. If we arrive/depart as scheduled and that does not fit into your individual req's then please direct your bleat at Ascot Op's and not the crew but before you do try humming the "theres always a bigger picture" mantra.:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[HEDP]

Are you seriously suggesting that us AT crews go regularly into both current theatres for our own convienience..........

I'm sure you wouldn't bother yourself if you had the option ABIW!

AT as a whole not as a crew..........................

Amazing how almost everyone passenger wise I have come into proximity with lately on AT seems to groan at such things as timing of take-offs, inflexibility to use other UK airfields etc.

No doubt that all I have come into contact with are deluded or something, couldn't possibly be a consensus of opinion........

Regards

HEDP

[Uncle Ginsters]

HEDP,

You may remember a short while ago a policy known as 'Hub and Spoke'....actually, not a short while at all, we've been doing it for years.

The problem is that at home, the hubs (our Stns) are all being closed down or seriously limited on Operating Hours, and that most of the 'Spokes' are either deployed, Leaned or ageingly decrepid, so what what the customer gets is an apparently inflexible and inefficient service. About as inflexible and inefficient as a Navy without ships, or Paras that can't jump!!!

Whose fault is that? The AT world only 'drive the bus'. The roads and highway code are somebody else bag (sadly!).

How many times must it be said?

[bootscooter]

this has GOT to be a wind up, surely??? (HEDP)

[bootscooter]

ABIW is absolutely right... timings are set generaly due to threat assessment and "what the customer wants" ie, the Army tends to want to travel (home from airhead) in daylight. Work the timings backwards from that!:ugh:

[Twopack]

Amazing how almost everyone passenger wise I have come into proximity with lately on AT...

Ahhh.. the old well-researched facts and reasoned argument again. Perhaps a bloke down the pub told you some more gen on the AT fleet. Perhaps ''they'' (suddenly downgraded to a ''royal they'') are having a lovely time making up itineries to suit themselves instead of flogging to and from the sandpit.

Fact is, and I've seen it from 1st hand, the AT fleet is working bl00dy hard and doing well with the resources they have right now.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

HEDP,

Just checked your profile and I think I see where you are coming from, however please PM me and I will give you my contact details. I am quite happy to chat on the phone and explain just how ham strung we at the coal face are, why Dip clears are so often screwed up etc etc.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[brit bus driver]

I so didn't want to bite on this thread, as it mostly full of ill-informed drivel, but....

Last time I checked, the DEFENCE Transport and Movements Agency runs the inter-theatre AT plot in line with the direction from the Permanent JOINT Headquarters; remind me again where the ATF influences that process. 2 Gp plan the schedules iaw direction received from every man and his dog, but NOT from the operators. And do you really think that the system has any flex to act as a taxi service dropping you off at every location under the sun? If you want it for an exercise, make sure you can handle the asset (PCN, rwy width etc), bid for it (surely you know the process?) and pay for the ACHE, CFR etc to be in place. Oh, and some air traffic would be handy. Where it can be done, it is, but the pot is seriously empty in terms of crews and airframes.

STCLCAISTF set the rules for hotac (or at least used to), not GASOs; indeed, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a ruling on hotac therein. Most likely your budget holder has decided that you don't need a comfy bed. It's his hotac bill. Either that or you're so busy whining you can't be ar$ed to look up the rules.

Buoy 15, you're showing your age. Shirt sleeves are now reserved solely for 32 on domestic VVIP tasks. TriStar crews wear flying suits because AOC 2 Gp directs it, as he does for all 2 Gp aircrew (except as stated); that is in GASOs. I'm sure he'd love to hear your argument.....

Crew rest. Can you honestly imagine the headlines when RAF TriStar hits jumbo outbound from LHR because the crew were f*cked having worked a 24 hour day and then been put up in the dorms with the pax. Get real. Try flying through the London TMA at 7 in the morning when you've been up all night with crappy/non-existent rest the night before, then get back to me. 8 hours of sheer boredom interspersed with 30 seconds of sheer panic is an oft quoted phrase....how true. But imagine the panic when that 30 seconds is the TCAS shouting TRAFFIC TRAFFIC rapidly followed by CLIMB, CLIMB NOW as you've missed the previous call. But surely that sort of thing could never happen....Oh, and please show me these peacetime training rules....unlike some fleets (I assume yours is one of them)the strat AT fleet have no OCUs or dedicated trainers. I'll leave it to you to guess where they're cutting their teeth.

Now I'm tired AND grumpy. FRI; no thanks, the tripe on this thread makes you realise what a losing battle it is.

[Brain Potter]

Not this thread again :rolleyes:
BBD - I agree wholeheartedly. It never ceases to amaze how many "experts" there are on long-haul AT - despite never actually having done the job. They clearly ought bring this expertize to bear in DTMA, 2 Gp or ITOC as obviously the current folks have no idea what they are doing. All the scheduling/crewing/engineering/dip clear/DAS/budgetary...etc problems could easliy be solved by a junior FJ pilot by simply applying his knowledge of low-level flying.
Getting an AT/AAR aircraft into and out-of a poxy miltary airfield presents nothing but problems, as they have absolutely no idea how to handle airliners. Everything including ATC, GSE, PCN, facilitation,fuel uplift, crash cat, de-icing etc is a headache. Accomodation is also a pain in the arse - but the last thing we need is to be trying to round up cabin crew after a revitin whilst they are busy trying to return their bedding to the guardroom! But then again it would be another innovative way of delaying a departure and would give the "experts" something else to whine about. The AT fleet is extremly cost-conscious these days and Captains know that they will be held to account over uneccesary expense. But let's face it, when running the aircraft costs £20k an hour, the cost of doing accomodation properly and safely is pennies.

Back to how this thread started. A TriStar taking Tornados east? Must have been for an exercise then! Could this also be the same exercise that recovered last week? The Herc had to go to a civil airport as the FJ station couldn't accept the movement due to, wait for it..... the fireman's Xmas party :hmm:

[bootscooter]

Could this also be the same exercise that recovered last week? The Herc had to go to a civil airport as the FJ station couldn't accept the movement due to, wait for it..... the fireman's Xmas party :hmm:

*blows coffee through nose* :ok:

[flyboy007]

BBD, well projected Sir

[Fox_4]

Brit Bus Driver "Try flying through the London TMA at 7 in the morning when you've been up all night with crappy/non-existent rest the night before, then get back to me."

Now I have heard it all.

Straight and level at 7am. Oh no!! Mayday.

There are two of you at least on the flight deck to cope with "all that work"!!

Try doing it on your own with a fraction of the kit and your knackered.

Taking vectors and heights must be reeeeeally taxing for some.

:ugh:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Fox_cub

Just checked your profile.............enuff said:rolleyes:

I'm just the tea boy but getting from 30 odd k around "gay paree" to a safe touchdown at BZN is hardly a bit of straight and level you girl.........and when was the last time you a your highly polished rocket had any serious "tma" action........kids today tchhh


all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Twopack]

Brit Bus Driver "Try flying through the London TMA at 7 in the morning when you've been up all night with crappy/non-existent rest the night before, then get back to me."
Now I have heard it all.
Straight and level at 7am. Oh no!! Mayday.
There are two of you at least on the flight deck to cope with "all that work"!

Thats right, throw the regulations out the book, after all military pilots operate in different airways from civilians, don't they??

CAP 371 ? Must be a load of rubbish.... what do those amateurs from the CAA, BA, Virgin, et al know?

Lets have our AT pilots operate single pilot after a disturbed rest in sh1te accommodation... I'm sure we'll be covered when the litigation starts flying after an incident.... :ugh:

[bootscooter]

Brit Bus Driver "Try flying through the London TMA at 7 in the morning when you've been up all night with crappy/non-existent rest the night before, then get back to me."
Now I have heard it all.
Straight and level at 7am. Oh no!! Mayday.
There are two of you at least on the flight deck to cope with "all that work"!!
Try doing it on your own with a fraction of the kit and your knackered.
Taking vectors and heights must be reeeeeally taxing for some.
:ugh:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes::ugh:

[Brain Potter]

Fox_4 - you are clearly another "expert".

Amongst other things :

Taking vectors and heights must be reeeeeally taxing for some.


Since when does anybody operate in a TMA on height?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Brain.................great put down ......but I fear probably way to subtle for the child in question:D

I always find it quite ironic that you never find an AT mate in here telling our pointy pals how to fly a hook manouver, the best spacing for battle or how to defeat a Mig 29 BVR but I never cease to be amazed at how their expertise with all things AT is offered up when they dont get from A to B on time.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced