A good year for Modular Trainee Employment?

[Wertzy]

When I started my flight training a couple of years ago, most people I talked to recommended me taking an integrated ATP course. "It costs a bit more, but its well worth it when the airlines starts requiting again" was the common advice I was told. And offcourse, as today, people at that time thought the market would start booming around the next corner. Just a few months more the market will start soaring blablabla. But what I emphasised most at that time doesnt seem to matter any more, now when its time for applying.
Do an integrated course, get firstpass on all flight checks and theory exams, get Atpl score above 95%, is just bull****, the airlines doesnt really care at all. I did all this, but in todays market with 250TT including sim and no t/r one is completely lost. And im not just aiming at the airlines, actually most of the companies receiving my applications have been smaller airtaxi and cargooperators. I would love to fly a P31, pay my bills and have just enough money left for a bag of peanuts and some beers. Im really happy with both the theoretical and practical part of the training I received, but when companies just ask for hrs and ratings, well its not alot one can do about it..
If I had to undergo flighttraining again, I would go for the cheapest alternative where I could get a bunch of hours, because noone seem to care where I`m trained anyway. This is probably old news for most of you, but Im just very impressed, how what seems to be the most important factor for people both before and under training, in real live after, is worth nothing.
And yes, my native langauge is not english, sorry for eventual grammatical errors, misspellings or just funny new words.

[portsharbourflyer]

Single pilot public transport ops needs at least 700 hours total time and at least 50 hours p1 multi (insurance and CAA requirement I believe), so with 220 hours you are not going to be able to get a job doing air taxi work on a PA31.

[rmcdonal]

PA31 Job with 250hrs!! Hell in OZ you cant even get a single engine piston job for that.

[Lightheart]

Wertzy,

I think you will find people more willing to help others who are willing to help themselves.

Therefore, the first thing you need to do is CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE. Then have a plan. In an effort to help you, here is a list of some proven practical ways to build your flight time.


Become An Instructor
One of the easiest ways and the quickest to build time is to become an instructor. That time is all loggable, and you will learn something at the same time.

Get Your MEI And Fly Right Seat
You can fly right seat and log it as instruction given.

Fly As A Safety Pilot
Many IFR students need to build time under the hood. Offer to be a safety pilot in turn for a little flight time. If you are an instructor, offer to fly that seat for free.

Find A Friend Who Owns An Airplane.
Don't abuse this friendship

Offer To Help With Annuals
A lot of the cost in an annual is the time it takes to open up the airplane. Offer to help with opening and closing the airplane in turn for some flight time. This builds friendships.

Go Through The Hangers To Find Out Who Is Not Flying
Many times you can go through hangers and find airplanes that don't fly, only to find out that the owner doesn't want to fly alone and has trouble finding others to go along. Offer to ride along. This may lead to some PIC time.

Tow Banners
Banner towing can be a lot of fun, and is a great way to build time.

Networking
Throughout your life you will find out that people get jobs because of who they know. Build a good network of people who can help you in your career. Make friends and have a good time.

Flight Cost
Split flight cost with another instructor to build flight time.

Establish A Breakfast Trip
Once a week at your local airport, gather as many pilots with airplanes as you can and offer to ride along .

Work For Someone Who Owns An Airplane.

Practice Approaches
There are many IFR students who need safety pilots who will let you fly an approach or two for helping them out.

Find VFR Pilots
Find VFR pilots that own their own planes and offer to fly trips with them to show them what IFR flying is about.

Currency
IFR pilots need to keep current. Offer to fly with them to help keep them current.

Wash Airplanes
Trade washing an airplane for flight time.

Corporations
Many corporations fly single pilot operations. Ask if you can ride along in exchange for doing some cleaning/help with flight planning etc, use your initiative. Who knows, later down the road they may offer you something.

Buy some time
If you have a windfall or can get a wealthy relative to loan you some.

Don't give up, but it starts with YOU.

[Ingo1]

Contact skydiving clubs if you want to logg many hours.
The only thing though, that seem to count these days, is whether you have the right typerating or not. Hours are not that important anymore.

[Superpilot]

If I had to undergo flighttraining again, I would go for the cheapest alternative where I could get a bunch of hours, because noone seem to care where I`m trained anyway.

Wertzy,

You seem to have hit the nail on the head. Spoke to a poor sod the other day who done an integrated course with Oxford just before the APP come out. He spent £65k doing that, looked around for jobs, no luck so went on to do a FI rating. Another £6k. Found a job as an FI earning smarties and now is applying for a TRSS with a low cost carrier (another £20k !!!). So in total he's going to be spending £91k to get his first Airline job.

Just for comparision a PPL in the states costs around £3,500, hour building up to 150 also in the states (another £6.5k). That's £10k, come back to blighty to do the ATPL Theory/CPL/IR/ME/MCC, including all fees your looking at around £25k + accomodation. £35k you would've spent and you'd be in pretty much the same boat.

[ATIS]

Wertzy,

That is exactly what I concluded in the late 90's. Yes I visited the 3 main schools in the UK in those days, CSE Oxford, Bae Prestwick and cabair.

They all whipped me with their glossy brochures, and gave their speaches on which airlines they had a rosy relationship with.

Trying to crank the brain a little but I think the figures were approx as follows.

CSE oxford £45000, Bae £48000 (had a nice uniform though)
Cabair £36000

In the end you will have the same licence tucked away in your pocket.
I chose Cabair, had a great time and got through the course.

As I'm sure you are all aware, luck plays an important part. One of the regionals was looking for pilots and approached cabair. My cv was put forward and I got a direct entry onto a jet.

A friend of mine went to Oxford about the same time, passed the course, but unfortunately couldn't find a job. Apparently not many airlines were approaching CSE in those days. But now it seems that the tide has changed, a few airlines are approaching CSE. You just can't predict the future.

For me what it boiled down to was ££££££££££££'s and nothing else.

Good luck to you all.

[ozzieb88]

hi guys,

all ive ever wanted to do is become a pilot, intergrated is way too expensive so i guess its modular for me!

just wanted to know i know that the job prospects are meant to be the same an all but...if i dont get recommended by a flight school because im not intergrated, i have to get up off ma behind just as a intergrated student, but do many airlines recruit fresh off the "training" modular guys that have no type rating? but are willing to pay for it?

i dont understand. all thses airlines want 1000s of hours but theres hardly any airlines that are recruiting low houred pilots so that they can get the 1000s that larger airlines 'require'

sorry if im wrong, just want a bit of info

thanks oz

[Megaton]

Ex-modular (all different schools for each bit) and got a job two years ago with FlyBE with only 400-odd hours. Now flying Airbus.

[JB007]

If Modular is right for you, then do it! It was right for me due to cost and been able to keep working etc etc...just finishing 2 years of turbo-prop flying and start a B757 course in Feb!

[54.98N]

Well - I can count at least 10 people I know (including me) that qualified within the last 2 years that went modular and are now flying commercially, everything from King Airs to 737's.

Sometimes I think access to PPRUNE should be rationed - it seems to bring on depression in wannabes. :)

[ozzieb88]

thanks guys,

yea i wanna work and do it at the same time, i have other little brothers and sisters and theres no way i could ask my folks for the money!

so there are airlines that really take on low houred guys....

could you give me some of your experiances if it aint too much trouble...

thanks oz

[Callsign Kilo]

First of all, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not read into this as an attempt to rekindle the nauseous 'INTEGRATED vs. MODULAR' debate - IT'S NOT!!
The reason why I post this is to get a general feel of all the Modular peeps out there who secured a position in the RHS in 2006. I commence my CPL/IR in January via Stapleford Flight Centre in Essex, and keeping my fingers crossed, I hope to be complete by May/June 2007.
I have a few friends and know of a few fellow students who trained at my FTO between late 2005 & early 2006 who were lucky enough to pick up jobs quite soon after their training was complete, but I am very intrigued to hear of anyone else’s success stories from 2006.
Would love to know how you came about your job (and who it is with?) - Was it via a contact, a recommendation, through your MCC, the CTC scheme or a SSTR? -Whatever!
It's always great to hear of modular students doing well and supplies everyone in the same boat as myself with extra motivational ammunition to tackle the tasks ahead.
Thanks for your time and Good luck

[SinBin]

It's very quiet at the moment, would others agree with me?

[Craggenmore]

I know of 14 low hour modular bods who went to easyJet this year via CTC ATP scheme...

[loftustb]

SinBin
Nothing doing for me but plenty of my modular friends have been interviewed/sim checked in the last few weeks for at least 8 airlines. I thought it had been quite busy out there. I've had a long hard look at my CV because so many others have had the call and I haven't!

[Jinkster]

Modular (not that it matters!) - 300hrs instructing to give 520hrs = 737 Job ;)

[Callsign Kilo]

Congratulations Jinkster - great news, well done!

Loftustb - I know it must be hard, it's something I can't help getting anxious about myself, and I haven't even finished training yet - but I'm sure something is around the corner. Have you tried CTC yourself? Is it an option?

Cheers guys

[Jinkster]

I know of people that send 10 cv's every 2 months - NOT ENOUGH!!

If you want an airline job - fly as often as possible and send at least 100 CV's a month!!!

Good luck

[AIRWAY]

Jinks,

Long time no speak...

Great News :ok: I am sure you will have a buzz up there.

Safe Flying.

[speedrestriction]

I qualified in the first half of the year and am currently doing my initial type rating course. I got the interview through a recommendation from my FTO. Most of the others on my IR course have started or will be shortly be starting their first airline jobs.

So, based on my experience, it has been a good year for some modulars at least. Keep on sending those C.V.s out, sooner or later they will surface on someone's desk.

sr

[Megaton]

PPruner Avrodamo (BGS, Atlantic and few other places) passed his Final Line Check yesterday with BMIBaby. Congratulations, mate.

[sawotanao]

550 hrs Modular, 12 months since mcc, got Jet job & 1 piston offers in the space of 3 weeks! :) Things are happening, not the only one , three other mates all 250-500 hr modular all got T/P & Jet jobs.:D
Keep sending those cv's, but networking also important, I targeted a handful and kept on at them till interviews happened. Also keep ME/IR current and stay flying, even if its a bit of sim. Good luck.

[MIKECR]

Modular (not that it matters!) - 300hrs instructing to give 520hrs = 737 Job ;)

Jinkster,

Have you managed to get a job? You replied in another thread tonight that you've applied to Flybe

[Slow Progress]

I know of 4 people who have secured their first jet jobs this year after completing the modular route.

2 at Jet2
1 at Thomsonfly
1 at MyTravel

Rgds

Slow Progress

[jkl]

Started the year after completing modular training in DEC 2005 with 205 hours TT & now have 550 hours TT with 345 hours logged on 737NG!

I managed to get through CTC ATP but there are jobs out there for modular people & quite a few friends that I trained with have jobs!

:ok:

[Slow Progress]

If you want an airline job - fly as often as possible and send at least 100 CV's a month!!!

Good luck


To be honest I don't think its just about sending cv's. Networking seems to be the key from what I have seen and if you know somebody in the airlines already or work for an airline in a ground based role then my bet is you have a better chance!!

Just my 2p's worth.

Slow Progress

[Dan 98]

Callsign Kilo,
I have been thinking of putting my experience on this site and Callsign Kilo your post has spurred me to actually do it!
So often you read on this site desperately miserable posts which make you wonder what an earth you’re doing, so maybe I can at least show some light at the end of what can be a very dark, worrying tunnel at times.
Firstly a bit about me, I am 32 married with a 5year old which certainly hasn’t made life easy being away from home at times. I left school at 16, have no A-levels or a degree. I spent 5 years in the Forces and then 6 years in Medical sales. I started my PPL at 29 although I had wanted to fly since I was 24 but funds and other commitments prevented this. I left full time employment in March of this year to finish off my commercial flying full time.

I chose Bristol Flying Centre, and can certainly recommend them to anyone trying to decide where to go.
The 3 months at Bristol were a roller coaster ride of highs, lows, even lower lows to feelings of total elation when you pass the IR and the CPL and walk out the doors for the last time, with your pass certificates to go home. Being married with a child made being away really hard at times but also motivated me to get it done as quickly as possible, which I think only added to the stress at times. I met many others in the same boat, and if you’re reading this as a married man or in a serious relationship you really do have to make some pretty big sacrifices for this career if you really want to do it, depending on your situation. If you’re young free and single it is definitely going to make life easier, but I wouldn’t change my situation as my wife has been a brick throughout this whole ordeal.

I then did the MCC with Jetlinx on a B757, it was great fun and in a way was a treat to myself for all the hard work, it in no way has helped me get a job doing it on a jet, and if you are on a tight budget by this point I really wouldn’t spend the extra. That in no way is meant to knock Jetlinx who provided a great and enjoyable course, it is just not essential to spend £3,500 to get a tick in the box.
So that brings me in a very long winded way to actually starting to answer Callsign Kilo’s question, as I now had everything I needed to send out my first and (only batch of CV’s) to the aviation world. I sent out around 80 to everybody I could and waited! Started getting responses about a week later with a fairly steady flow after that of one every other day, all saying the same thing, sorry but we have no vacancies blah blah….. In other words you have 203hrs go away.

This was a depressing time, one where I really did start to think what the hell have I done here, I have a licence that is not worth the paper it is written on! Oh I forgot to mention earlier that we sold our house at the beginning of the year to move into a rented property to fund this little adventure, so I really was getting worried.
But slowly I began to gather names, I then got a response from Jet2 saying my application was being processed so not a go away which was a morale booster. It was also July so a really bad time to be looking as well.
I new before I started this that networking would be the key to success, the phrase “It’s who you know not what you know “really does apply in Aviation. I was lucky enough to know a guy at Ryanair, so after thinking about the implications of funding the type rating etc…. asked him to get my CV on the right desk. He kindly did that and in August I got the first break of an assessment at the end of September. I remember thinking when I was doing my IR and CPL that if things got really bad I could apply to Ryanair or even lower myself to a Turbo Prop, how naïve and arrogant of me!! Because less than 2 weeks after finishing my MCC I would have given my right arm for a job on a TP, and if I had not known anyone at Ryanair I would not have got an assessment, down to earth with a bump for me that’s for sure, as the reality set in.

Meanwhile I managed to organise some safety pilot work on a King Air, which really was a life saver, as I was flying, for free admittedly, but for short term experience in a proper aircraft it was invaluable. I was also very fortunate to be flying with a guy who let me fly when we had no one on board, so first tip, if you can do some safety pilot work, DO IT it is great fun and even better on your CV. It shows you have not sat around doing nothing but have got up off your backside. I totally understand though that this cannot be sustained long term, but anything is better than nothing.

I did the assessment with Ryanair and passed. It was a hard assessment and required a lot of preparation for me anyway. I am due to start in December. I paid to go in a sim, but I met guys on the day who had not, who did not know the profile, who had not flown for 3 months. Tip 2 If you get a chance, don’t worry about spending £400 – 500 on a sim, think how gutted you will be if you fail, £500 will have been well spent. Getting in a jet and flying accurately requires practice, and unless you have experience or are extremely talented you will fail.
My second break came from sending an email to Flyglobespan back in July when I first finished. The Captain was kind enough to respond to my email which again is quite rare, although it was sorry we have no vacancies I sent one back asking some advice, which again he responded to. I saved his details and the email. Then 4 months later I sent him another email, stating I had emailed before, that I had passed the Ryanair assessment etc….. And that I continued to at other companies, how did the waters lie now? Whether it was luck, the fact we had emailed before, or it just landed in his inbox at the right time, he emailed me back with an offer of an interview. I don’t know anyone in the company, so it felt good to have got it totally off my own back.

In the end however I cancelled the interview as I had a firm start with Ryanair, which FGS were unable to match even if you were successful, you get placed into a holdpool. It was also a SSTR like Ryanair so I would have been foolish to accept it over Ryanair. I rang and spoke to the captain at FGS and explained my situation who agreed I should go to Ryanair, but to call him in 9 months time, when I have some experience, another contact one day, who knows.

My third break came from knowing a Capt with Bmi Baby, through my Mother. Something my Mother forgot to mention until I was close to slitting my wrists in August, when she suddenly announced, oh I wonder if it is worth calling …… her sister is married to a pilot. I said it might be a good idea, why haven’t you mentioned it before!!!!!
Sorry I am turning this into an essay here, I contacted him, we talked (he decided whether I sounded like a tw*t and whether he was willing to recommend me to his Chief Pilot, so I sent him my CV. He forwarded it for me and the rest was really up to me. I emailed the Chief Pilot and discovered he was going to attend the Balpa Conference in September, so off I went. I ended up queuing 2hrs 15mins to meet him to have a 10 min chat. But it was worth it and there were many others who did the same that day. There were no promises made, even though he had my CV, and had been recommended. Worth pointing out that he was impressed I had done the safety pilot work, I had managed to accrue 40hrs on the King Air, and although they don’t count to your total time it is all experience. Anyway I never let up, I emailed that night thanking him for his time, I then emailed again 3 weeks later asking for news and any update. Each time I waited for a response; which I got eventually, but days later making the wait agonising for any news. After about 5 or 6 emails, 2 phone calls, he finally agreed to see me for an interview.

Now I persevered to get that interview but at times sending these emails and making phone calls was really awkward. I was really worried I was going to P*ss him off and blow it!! No advice with that it’s a judgement call I’m afraid with how far you should push. Although I had got to a point where I had nothing to lose with my start with Ryanair looming ever closer.
I had the interview last Friday and got the call and conformation this week that I had been successful. I was practically shaking when I got off the phone, suddenly all the heartache and frustration was worth it. The best feeling in the world. I was pleased when I passed Ryanair, but the edge was taken off it slightly with what it was going to cost us, but I would have done it, and felt fortunate to have it and in a strange way it is partly responsible for pushing the guy at Bmi baby to see me before I started. I start next Feb, and the real work and learning curve will start.

So that is my story, I feel very very fortunate, and I am at the start of my career and in no way do I pretend to be an expert with recruitment. I am sure others have done all of the above and have not had their lucky break yet, but hopefully it will happen soon. It is not easy and it is a hard slog. But I think it is important to share the good news as well as the bad (and there is plenty of the latter on this site at times).
Never give up, and don’t be afraid to chase people or ring people, they’re after all only human. If you can get recommended by someone fantastic, but don’t think that will be enough on its own, follow it up, make yourself standout. Show you’re hungry for it and want it more than the next person. There is no shortage of low houred pilots with 200hrs looking for a job, so you have to make yourself standout. I apologise for the length of this, I got slightly carried away!! I hope this has not come across as being arrogant to others waiting for their first break.
Be lucky:ok:

[dartagnan]

dan98, I am happy for you, but most of you still have to pay for a job.
what about all these chaps who have a license and no money to pay for a type rating?
I recently got 2 calls from schools who asked me to apply with them because I can finance a type rating .
one on jet and one on turboprop.

this market is only good for people with deep pockets and will not last long!.

[Jinkster]

Jinkster,
Have you managed to get a job? You replied in another thread tonight that you've applied to Flybe

MikeCR - yes got the jet job however still not heard from flybe (to be honest dont care but would be nice for a reply......and for the rest of people applying!)

[MIKECR]

Jinkster,

Great stuff, i guess you were playing it wise and keeping all options open!

[Desert Budgie]

Dan 98,

Congrats on your recent employment. I don't by any means think you have written a boring essay, but an extremely informative example of what it takes to get that 1st job after modular training.

My situation was similar. However, foolishly hedged my bets on one airline(thank god it paid off) and after probaly p*ssing the ops guys off no end got the interview I needed. The rest is history, 500hrs TP 1000 TT and growing.

Listen carefully to Dan 98, invaluble information!

Cheers

DB :ok:

[Callsign Kilo]

Well done Dan98

I thought your post was an excellent example of showing that if we want something badly enough, it will eventually come our way - especially if we are prepared to go out and get it

It certainly shows how networking helps leaps and bounds - I was always told, "It's not what you know, it's who you know"

Best of luck with it all!

[mightymouse111]

Out of 23 of us at my school that I am still in contact with. Only two of the modular guys have got jobs with an airline. All the integrated bar 2 of them have positions. That includes 3 of them that could not fly for toffee and took 3 attempts at the IR. Most were recommended and the others bought TR through airline schemes etc. The majority of the modular guys are instructing (its a shame because they started at the same time as integrated, had all the same instructors/courses etc but somehow the industry views them differently which i cannot understand!).

Jinkster, who is your 737 job with? (PM me)

[Penworth]

Just a small point on CTC, its not a buy-a-rating scheme unlike many other companies. On top of the CPL/IR it's an assessed MCC and advanced handling course (cumulatively known as the AQC) which costs £6000 (£2000 back on completion of line check). So effectively its £4k on top of basic training which gives you 40 hours in a jet sim. On passing this the type rating, 6 months line training/flying and a monthly allowance are all covered by the airline.

This is the route I took, which for the vast majority of those coming through CTC leads to a permanent job with the sponsoring airline. On my course the majority were modular and all 16 of us passed and went on to type training. That's what I like about CTC, they don't care what training you did or where, they just look at the person and if they think you are of the right calibre, you're in, regardless of training background.

PW

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I know of people that send 10 cv's every 2 months - NOT ENOUGH!!

If you want an airline job - fly as often as possible and send at least 100 CV's a month!!!

Good luck

I Dont think you have a better chance of getting a 'position' if you send 10 or more of your CV's every month?

The Airline's do speak to each other regarding suitable applicants, and in some cases if you look desperate for a 'position' that could rule out your chances?

Although it gives you a good sense of acquiring a position from your own personal view, The Airlines not only look for the key skills & experience but for the people skills to accompany it.

I have known Instructors who have less conversation than a 'Monkey' and that's normally the better off ones!!

As for the time of year, Obviously most Airlines make a 'loss' in the winter months, so Recruitment & Training is limited to the minimum.

As for pilot shortage, There is a shortage - not an alarming one but a worry for the Airlines in the coming 5 years ahead.

With so many 'Ex Mill' pilots using their 'Gorm' and leaving the MOD? or whatever, this is filling up the low cost Airlines requirements.

I have a friend who has just last month acquired a position with a 'lo cost' op, after many years of instructing and training all of his own making. Luckily he acquired the finance to do it!! Thats part of the Battle!!

I think some of these Training operators Cabair, Oxford, Stapleton etc Push the Boat out and 'fasttrack' the student onto a position, Obviously this is in the interest of both parties, But they don't reliase that a CPL is still alot simplier than an ATPL, Yes you maybe an excellent CPL student/ Instructor but it doesn't make you 'compelled' to fly Airliners.

I attended Cabair years ago, But I found it to be 'over the top' and nothing remotely beneficial in getting a position, I still think they 'already' had people for the jobs before they tested 250 of us?

My view was that it was just a 'money making regime' = £55 x 250?

I still don't think some potential ATPL students take into consideration the 'responsibility' of flying an Airliner, The legal part of the flying, and the implications if things go wrong, not only from the Airline but from the public also, There has being cases of Custodial sentences passed in other countries.

I wish everyone the Best with all their Training and Future plans.

Regards.:rolleyes:

[scroggs]

Another strange and ill-informed post by BAI. :rolleyes: :hmm:

With so many 'Ex Mill' pilots using their 'Gorm' and leaving the MOD? or whatever, this is filling up the low cost Airlines requirements.

What on earth is a 'gorm'? As an ex-RAF pilot, I have never heard this expression. As for filling the low-cost airlines' requirements, easyJet require 450 pilots next year. Ryanair probably slightly more. That's the best part of 1000 pilots for those two airlines alone. The RAF has a total of less than 3000 pilots, including many who are no longer active in flying; the RN and Army have rather fewer. The total outflow of Qualified Service Pilots (QSPs) is around 150-200 annually. Many leave flying altogether, many more do not join the airline rat-race. The remainder do not currently make a significant dent in the number of airline jobs available.

Much of the rest of your post shows a similarly loose grip on reality, so I can only advise wannabes to ignore you.

Scroggs

[Dude~]

As for the time of year, Obviously most Airlines make a 'loss' in the winter months, so Recruitment & Training is limited to the minimum.


Well its new to me that the airlines obviously loose money in th winter...:ugh:

How come many airlines are recruiting at the moment?

[JediDude]

Well its new to me that the airlines obviously loose money in th winter...:ugh:
How come many airlines are recruiting at the moment?

Probably snow & leaves on the runway :}

[smith]

How come many airlines are recruiting at the moment?

Probably because they have set out their stall for summer 2007 and will need the pilots to be ready when the summer biz starts. If they actively recruited during the busy summer period the pilots would have to go through their induction training, line training and, if a newbie, a type rating, by the time they had done all this it would be back into the winter schedule.

Also in winter there will be spare capacity and some under utilised aircraft which can be used by the newbies to do their mandatory circuits and landings.

So all in all the quiet times in an airline operation are the busy times in recruitment and training, getting the guys ready for action when the busy summer season starts, as I said there is no point in them recruiting in the height of summer unless in emergencies and usually for direct entry captains.

Makes sense really.

[Dude~]

Smith - yes I know that! We've got crossed wires now - I was refering to BYALPHAINDIA's post which was talking utter tosh!

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Scroggs flying in the RAF went out of fashion years ago!!

What I was saying was that 'Most' Mill pilot's are using their 'common' sense and leaving the RAF to go to the Airlines, and thus filling up the pockets of the LO-CO operators.

Although a young man in shoes, I do know enough about the Industry to comment on this.

You would be amazed at the current 'morale' in the RAF, what with no 'chinooks' available and constant base closures, look at Leeming what future does that have after 2007 when the last SQN leaves?

I should think with all this happening, and the lack of investment by our so called 'Government' the RAF is on it's nerves?

I'm not saying the Airline industry is better security than the RAF, but what's going on in there?

No Hard Feelings.

Regards.;)

[scroggs]

Is this in English? Can anyone translate?

Scroggs

[DJRC]

Yes, I 'think' I can 'translate' this.................:suspect: erm, no, don't have a clue what he's on about either.

[speedrestriction]

Although a young man in shoes...:confused:


http://www.mccauleyweb.com/images/babyWeb/dads_shoes.jpg

:confused: :confused:

To be honest it sounds like an eleven year old trying to write like an adult.

sr

[Deano777]

Ok guys no need to be so patronizing to him, give him a chance to defend himself :)

[dartagnan]

here the translation. much easier now!



Летание Scroggs в raf пошло из способа леты тому назад!! Я был высказывание было что ' большинств ' пилот стана использует их ' общее ' чувство и оставляет raf для того чтобы пойти к авиакомпаниям, и таким образом заполняющ вверх по карманам операторов LO-CO. Хотя молодой человек в ботинках, я знает достаточно о индустрии для комментария на этом. Вы были бы изумлены на в настоящее время ' morale ' в raf, без ' имеющихся chinooks' и постоянн низкопробное закрытие, взгляд на Leeming что будущее то имеет после 2007 когда последнее SQN выходит? Я должен думать с весь этот случаться, и отсутсвием облечения нашим поэтому вызванным ' правительством ', котор raf находится на ем будет нервы? Я не говорю компанииа авиатранспорта будет более лучшая обеспеченность чем raf, но идет дальше внутри там? Отсутствие Тяжелого чувство.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Is it that time of month or what??

I have 'Obviously' confused the BIG men of the establishment!!:=

I do live up North thou!! we are looking down on you aren't we?

And before you ask, The flat caps & greyhounds were retired long ago, I know have an a Beanie cap & an AK47!!

Or and an ATPL??:oh:

So you don't agree that the Airlines make a loss in Winter then? Mr Meeson recently said that although Jet2 has done 'Extremely' well so far this year, They will make a 'Loss' this winter as well as the other carriers.

There is a 'GLUT' of Line pilot's at the moment, and although they are being recruited, there are plenty in the Breeding!

Scroggs, the RAF has changed since you were there, It is not a Career anymore it is a job!:bored:

DJRC, and the others you are following Scroggs point of view like 'SHEEP' instead of saying what you REALLY mean?:oh:

Deano777, Thanks, I will remember that, all the best with the CPL/IR in the Southern China Zone!:D

I have to go now - Capt Greyhound is waiting!!

Goodday!!

[George Foreman]

:hmm: ...and I think I'm random.

Scroggs, the RAF has changed since you were there, It is not a Career anymore it is a job!
Not at all sure where you are going with this, or what point is being made here ? I think you can look at many careers/jobs in this way, depending on your motivation at the time. The management consultants probably have a chart for it - some sort of "emotional cycle" :rolleyes:

If you are saying that there is some sort of predictable underlying task to be carried out / job of work to be done, then that is also partially true of civilian aviation ...thankfully! What keeps me focussed, apart from considerable variety in procedures and destinations, is that requirement of the "job" whereby I must react (in an equally predictable way) to an abnormal or emergency situation at short notice!

Surely though, when any career ceases to be challenging it is probably time to stretch one's goals and aspirations, for some sort of change (eg. a new type, preparing for a command) or additional responsibilities. I think there are enough such opportunities in aviation to see me through to retirement and beyond.

My other point would be that we supposedly live in some sort of "Knowledge Economy", where one's "career", in the broadest sense of the word, might naturally be expected to span several employers and sectors. It would seem like a sensible idea for military pilots to use their transferrable skills when the time comes for a change, for whatever reason. As has been pointed out, they are not only a loss to the military, but they are in short supply compared with the numbers of new entrants presently needed within the civil sector.

Finally, it shouldn't be needed after the adequate explanation above, but for clarification this much is verifiably true:

So you don't agree that the Airlines make a loss in Winter then? Mr Meeson recently said that although Jet2 has done 'Extremely' well so far this yeor, They will make a 'Loss' this winter as well as the other carriers.

But this is plainly not:

As for the time of year, Obviously most Airlines make a 'loss' in the winter months, so Recruitment & Training is limited to the minimum.
As has been pointed out, most training happens during those quieter, often loss-making months. You have made an uninformed assumption in jumping to the conclusion you have reached from this fact.

Don't worry though, we all make this sort of mistake from time to time. The BBC for example, used to be more careful about not doing this, but I recently heard a news presenter state, quite categorically that centuries of coastal erosion along the east coast was the result of global warming.

While Tony is fixing the education system, I for one would like to see something on "how we know what we know" added to the curriculum.

Rant over .. happy flying.

George

PS I still prefer "the job" to my old career.
PPS I'm from way North of Leeds!

[Vortex Thing]

Sorry for obvious thread creep (it is only at the start) BUT It would be occasionally nice for people to acknowledge that the RAF is not the only service in the nation (Scroggs thank you I notice that you did mention it) who has pilots so if you want to talk about the military talk about us all not just those with shocking mess kit:= (some intended but only in jest)

As for the thread. I kept in contact with 8 chaps from my modular training in 03. All of use went to different schoools for ground, CPL, IR and MCC (and not the same ones either) and FI for those of those who did.

3 got jet jobs with nationals (one of them had 1200hrs mil rotary the others 3/400hrs piston)
2 got jet jobs with low cost 1x Easy(CTC AQC), 1x Ryan (SSTR)
2 on TPs for regionals (within 6 months of finishing less than 300hrs piston)
1 on TPs in Africa (now at 700hrs)
1 is still serving RAF (but has 3000hrs (2000 are heavy) so will probably not have to q for long)

Various ages from 23-36 years old only 2 of us including me are instructors. 4 ex mil officers. all graduates. All vastly different backgrounds and family status.

All paid or were bonded for type ratings one did SSTR on wrong type and then was bonded on new type!! So at the end of the day I think it is safe to say that modular didn't scupper our chances. The lowest debt is £45k the highest £105k.

The funniest thing is that NOT paying for the type rating straight away is what cost me personally the money. The 18 months I instructed for were as a whole of now use to my application at all and those who went straight to SSTR are now much better of financially now than those who stuck to thier guns and /or principals holding out for an answer.

Just to end on a great note there is one thing all of us have in common. FlyBe never ever replied to any of our applications at any stage. Not even a PFO... go figure eh. Still waiting just so we can smile and say no thank you :)

VT

[mad_jock]

I know of people that send 10 cv's every 2 months - NOT ENOUGH!!

If you want an airline job - fly as often as possible and send at least 100 CV's a month!!!



I disagree Jinks m8.

The quality of the majority of CV's floating around from low hour wannabies that I have seen in the passing is shocking. Some are even using Micro****e Word templates. All of them have the required tickets. But most don't even try and sell themselves. The young ones don't seem to have any life experence and the little they do have they don't sell. The older wannabies put to much of it in. Some you wonder if they are applying for an IT / other postion in the company or a FO position.

You get pictures of people, multi coloured, 7 different fonts on the page, more than one page. I presume most people don't realise that most CV's get photo copied so the picture is useless, funny fonts don't photo copy well, colours go grey and are a pain to read, and more than one page and your gone anyway.

My opinion is

Instead of sending out 100's of ****e CV's. Sit down and research who you are applying to what sort of operation they run. Who owns it. Who is the CP, ops director etc. What planes they fly. Start a file on each one and keep a record of when you applied to them and any PFO's you get and most importantly what you have already sent them. Then if you decided to try them again after improving yourself reference your previous attempt and highlight what you have done to improve yourself.

Write a CV and covering letter which is taylored to each company. TP operators don't want to see or hear you saying how great you are in a Jet sim on your MCC.

If you do it properly you will be lucky to get 2-3 good CV's plus covering letters out a month or application forms.

As an aside I have met several wannabies recently who were single figures in CV's sent out before getting a job, all of them modular. All had something different about them to the standard wannabie eg ex policemen, ex forces (ground types), VSO, TA officers, firemen or self employed running their own business. Another common factor was the fact that none of them had taken out huge loans ie more than 5k to complete thier training. Which to be honest I was suprised at. This profiling of CV's obviously does work and there are somethings which everyone is looking for.

[sicky]

So...for people like me who just want to get into flying because it's all they've ever wanted to do, it's going to be tough going modular?

I know it makes sense to say no, because each case is different, but i'm busy trying to get myself a job where i can get some experience of supervising or being in charge of some people. At the same time i'm trying to make sure i show some other skills that are useful for a pilot to have.

To be honest i've thought about joining the forces as it is something i've always had an intrerest in but you get tied in.

I'm starting to think, being only 21, that a few years in the forces and come out to do my FATPL might be the way i have to go, and just hold on a bit longer...if i can :{

You can see why the above mentioned modular's didn't have to wait long, but not everybody has the resources/time/interest to do those sort of things. There are plenty of people who have the licences and the ability to be a great FO, and i agree they have to sell themselves, but they may be overlooked because they havn't been in the forces, have no supervising experience, or havn't started their own company, even though they may be perfectly capable.

I hope you know what i'm getting at here!

[Vortex Thing]

Mad Jock first sicky second.

MJ whilst I appreciate what you are saying is ture that would rely on the ability to get an interview to sell yourself or at the very least for someone to actullay read your CV rather that just get you a form to fill in your hours on. This is rare so what you are in effect saying is that it is not the application process but who you know not what you know. This is I agree is the case(not agree with, as it defeats a meritocratic system) but is more likely the reason for the success of your colleagues rather than there something else about themness.

Sicky actually I don't know what you are getting at. You seem to be implying you think it wrong that you are overlooked for some who can bring more to the company that you would by virtue of non-airline experience that you don't have.

What do I mean, well there are lots of people who can fly a plane just doesn mean that they are all owed jobs doing it, just like lots of people could be good politicans but will never get to know.:mad:

The solution seems quite simple, you could just go and get some other experience.

The second confusing thing is that my post above clearly demonstrates that people of all backgrounds, educationally and work wise some with nothing other than bare mimimum qualifications were equally succesful by throwing cold hard cash at the problem so there you have plan B.

Before anyone starts screaming that they don't have the cash well I not that sure that the world owes you a living so go and find it and stop complaining about how expensive it is. It just is deal with it if you want that much you will find the money.

[sicky]

Yeah i really understand and see your POV, i think what i'm trying to understand is how some of the people, often from integrated and sometimes also from modular, who do not have a lot of life experience, maybe havn't worked much and don't evne have the best grade record are managing to get themself noticed ahead of such people with the experience.

Do you see what i mean?

I'll try and go into more detail if you need it, surely it can't all just be lucky breaks, right place, right time sort of things! :ugh:

As for who you know...it's the most valuable asset you can have in the world these days it would seem - contacts!

[High Wing Drifter]

Mad Jock,
All had something different about them to the standard wannabie eg ex policemen, ex forces (ground types), VSO, TA officers, firemen or self employed running their own business.The roles you describe don't scream "vive la difference!" to me, but "vive la conformiste!" (excuse bad French, but hopefully you see my point). What I suspect you have identified is that those people who have worked successfully in institutions are probably compatible with the rigid and relatively authoritarian structure of many airlines. Either that or they are simply more closely aligned with the Chief Pilot's background! Personally, it is difficult to argue with the rationality except that anybody who goes in for a mid-life career change porbably has quite a different approach to life, regardless of their background.

[Orvil]

[QUOTE=High Wing Drifter;3006692]Mad Jock,
The roles you describe don't scream "vive la difference!" to me, but "vive la conformiste!" (excuse bad French, but hopefully you see my point). What I suspect you have identified is that those people who have worked successfully in institutions are probably compatible with the rigid and relatively authoritarian structure of many airlines.

HWD,
I don't agree with you one bit. What MJ is implying, is that the people he quoted are anything but conformist.
If you think serving your Country, willing to sacrifice one's own life, showing maturity, and down right unselfishness and good old traditional British stiff upper lip is conformist, think again.
These people are now - unfortunately- are exceptions due to the mind-numbing, uneducated idiots, self-opinionated, MTV-BB TV watching, rolled in cotton wool, chauffeur driven pansies that the mass media call the "YOOF".

So when the CV gets through the HR dept. The Chief Pilot smiles and thinks....
conversation, likes a beer (without getting p1$$ed), got a life outside work.

Sorry, but the YOOF of today..................:)

[High Wing Drifter]

Hi Orvil,

Wow, you certainly have an axe ready for the sharpening wheel! But, I don't think "yoof" enter the equation here, we are talking about people who already posess the nouse plus the get up and go to get through training relatively unscathed. As per my closing caveat, whatever unfavourable assumptions you chose make about somebody from their background are probably invalidated at this point.

So when the CV gets through the HR dept. The Chief Pilot smiles and thinks....conversation, likes a beer (without getting p1$$ed), got a life outside work.
Which was my other point really, I think MJ identified that the similarity of background between employer and potential employee carries a greater weight in getting an interview, possibly why there are suspicions that integrated students get an easier time of it.

Regardless, I think MJ made some excellent points and has provided me with some food for thought.

[mad_jock]

HWD I think ovil has hit the nail on the head and put in much better words than myself.

You have to remember that he majority of people doing the hiring are of a certain age 45-60. They were brought up in a completely different ethos than todays kids. Military service was to be respected in a person most grand parents had served in the war. A police man was a person of trust and was respected. Kids joining the Scouts and the Boys Brigade was normal. And the older types who through goodness of there hearts like orvil, scroggs, etc give there views on what is percieved to be good egg's, you can bet that CP's etc will have very similar views. When wannabies then instantly come back with some PC clap trap about how they think the world should be or have been told it is by there teachers. I must admit I find it amusing and if after a few beers it provokes a rant (but I am trying to stop that).

Whatever you believe should be the case and think is fair really isn't the way it works.

Myself mid-thirties never mind 45-60 can see a not very pleasant trend in todays youngsters, expecting things to be given to them on a plate. When things go wrong it is always someone elses fault or its not fair. It doesn't help that we have a small section of society who promote this pish and have every excuse for them to blame it on thier parents, education, social status, goverment etc etc. And the term "YOOF" summarises it very well. And any CV which shows a marked diversion away from this stereo type stands out like sore thumb.

And your comment about Intergrated students I think is very valid. Which is the reason why I think Intergrated has lost its hold over the hiring of low houred pilots. The number of modular trained pilots entering the system has expanded rapidly since JAR came into force. The pilots who were first through the system were generally employed by the smaller operators who have now expanded, these pilots are now in the training departments and are the interviewers and hirers. These operators now are the major employers of low time pilots. And its human nature to look for someone with a similar background to yourself.

The traditional Intergrated only operators are changing policy as well. They are taking on more and more experenced multi crewed pilots instead of new starts. BA is a perfect example they are more than happy to look at a modular trained pilot with 1000 hours turboprop time.

And lastly the south of England old boy network from the BAOC days is slowly but surely retiring. The deals done at squadron reunion parties arn't standing up infront of the bean counters. There is serious money and training load involved taking a 200 hour wannabie to online ready to be dicked about FO. I have heard in the region of 25k per pilot for a turbo prop. I should imagine for a large jet it get's on towards 35-40k. If its cheaper with training to take an experenced FO from another operator, thats what the bean counters will make the hiring policy to be. Which will have a knock on effect of causing the operators who don't care where or how you train to require more pilots to replace the poached ones.

Edited to add

Vortex I will admit that who you know does help matters sometimes. But there are alot of my friends who have got jobs with blind CV sending and applications.

[MIKECR]

2 of my ex Plod buddie's are now flying TP's for UK regional operators. Both are modular, low houred, and both managed to find their jobs within roughly 7 - 8 months of finishing their MCC's. One had 2 offers of employment and the other got 3 in one week!

[scroggs]

possibly why there are suspicions that integrated students get an easier time of it

As the integrated/modular system has only been in existence for around 6 or 7 years, I doubt you'll find many Chief (or senior) Pilots who came via either route! As for those who expect to be given, rather than to have to earn, a job flying jet airliners, most will be in for a very unpleasant surprise - as one or two of our more foolish contributors have made very clear in the past!

Scroggs

[mad_jock]

I don't know scroggs. I was taking the Intergrated as the old CAP course and modular as the old BCPL self-improver.

And taking account of the number of very capable and experenced aussies and kiwi's that came over and don't have the experence of intergrated/modular bull**** debate who are now in managment. The days of management being full of ex-RAF pilots and airline sponsored cadets is coming to an end.

[dartagnan]

As the integrated/modular system has only been in existence for around 6 or 7 years,
Scroggs


... and in UK only!

[IT2Pilot]

Having recently completed my training, it is good to see that there are lots of people out there getting jobs.

One thing I am noticing when applying is the number of airlines advertising for people who have completed an MCC. When finishing my training, I thought that I would leave the MCC and if/when called to interview ask the airline where they would like me to do my MCC so I can use their SOPs and they could get feedback on me. In Lassors 2006, it says "Wherever possible, the MCC training should be combined with an initial type rating course on multi-pilot aircraft"...but this doesn't seem to be the case.

So, at the moment I am trying to pick out an MCC provider and complete a course by mid-Feb at the latest so I don't miss out on the current recruitment drives...but that still does not guarantee a job, it only gives me another tick in a box.

Do airlines simply use the MCC requirement as a way of whittling down the number of CVs they receive, or are there people out there who managed to get through to interview with an airline without an MCC certificate upfront?

[High Wing Drifter]

I too noticed that text in LASORS. However, like you, I noticed that it seems to be a pre-requisite for an application in many cases (implicitly or explicitly). I suspected this would because part of the objective of the sim check is to test your CRM knowledge and skills. Also, and probably more pertinant, is that when they offer you a job they may need you at the training centre tout-sweet. You not being able to get on an MCC course in the timeframe or needing additional hours in the TR may mess up the tight schedules for these things; certainly the sim I did my MCC on was in use 24hrs/day with engineer poping to replace bits and bobs that went U/S on the fly!!

[EGCC4284]

12 months on and how is everyone doing

[Pieman007]

Modular fATPL obtained in Dec 06. One unsuccessful interview in 07. I am a FI now and there are one or two doors opening as a result. You need hours... 250TT didnt get me anywhere..

[Tony Hirst]

Just the one unsuccessful interview in '07 too (250TT at the time). Now just 300TT with a CRI and some part-time instructing work lined up (given that anything aviation wise enthuses me I'm really looking forward to this!).

Judging by that interview, I do suspect that age is an issue, perhaps some people have the personality or raw ability to mitigate such things. Poor old average me :{ :)

I do have a very interesting CAE assessment lined up in early January though, so prepared to eat words and lots to keep me occupied over Christmas too!

Have a good 'un :ok:

[Polarhero]

Good year?....to right!!!

Finished mod nov 06 then onto FI, Worked at local flight school for less than 2 months before getting job flying 320/1 for one of the big charter airlines. :ok:

Most of the guys that got the jobs here were modular, and the only ones who didn't make the grade were from a well know school that is supposed to be the best.

Tony, As for the age not a problem, i am well into my 30's