Manchester/Liverpool Low Level Corridor?!

[tiggermoth]

Ok, so I've got the PPL. Now what?

If I want to go south of Barton (my local field/pond) then I need to go down the Low Level Corridor it appears between Liverpool and Manchester.

It appears to be under 4 nm wide, and at only 1250 feet.

What stops us lot from:

a) bumping into each other
b) bursting into controlled airspace
c) intercepting ground or high structure

The route I'm planning is between Barton and Caernarfon.

Is there an easy guide to negotiating the corridor by VFR (or other means) or perhaps suggesting an alternative route (North of Liverpool perhaps but below 3000 ft etc..)

Cheers,
Yours bewildered,
"I'm a pilot, get me out of here!"
TiggerMoth

[Beethoven]

Hiya, used to fly from Barton too and am resuming in the new year to fly from there. With regards to this piece of airspace I must admit it is not great but it is not difficult to navigate using good old DR and keeping VERY watchful of heading/drift/altitude. There are sadly IIRC no handy line features to follow but quite a few landmarks. The danger of collision is undoubtedly higher here than in more open spaces but again just keep as good a lookout as you can (and hope the guy coming the other way is doing the same!). Have you flown the corridor with an instructor?
With regards to your trip to caernarfon, why not try Liverpool for a zone transit and have the low-level corridor planned out if refused, or as you say, a route round the north and back down if you prefer. Have done this trip quite a few times and always been allowed through the Liverpool zone.

Beet.

[MyData]

From the CAA:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/299/Manchester%20Low%20Level%20Route_2006_CAA.pdf

It might also be worthwhile to do this with an instructor once or twice to get familiar.

[mazzy1026]

I admit this can be somewhat difficult. I am a new PPL myself from Liverpool and transited the LLR a few times, including solo.

I always use Ashcroft Farm as the waypoint for southern entry/departure and then Haydock Racecourse for the north (you can use the M6 motorway quite easily too).

The problem with the zone transit is the fact that you will cross the approach path - albeit underneath. I hear from many pilot's though that once you've done it a few times, it gets much easier (I am still to try it again though :eek: )

Cheers
Maz :ok:

[wombat13]

Tigger, there is no big deal to the LLR. There are plenty of VRP's in the LLR and on leaving Barton there are accepted ways to access the LLR. Speak to an experienced pilot there or an FI.

As for Caernarfon, your choices are:

Pop out the bottom of the LLR then either straight line over the hills or due west o/h Hawarden and around the coast.

or, pop out the top then route through L'pool zone or stay outside L'pool all the way around to Wallasey, then round the coast.

As for bumping into traffic in the LLR, keep a good look out. It might not quite be as busy a you imagine. You don't have to speak with Manchester, but you might get some added benefit the first few times.

Enjoy the flying.

The Wombat

[Airbus38]

I have negotiated the LLR a few times, slightly off topic here but does anybody have any views on how you stand with Rule 5 once inside it? I'm sure you are not as low as you sometimes feel, but you can't help being a little more twitchy than usual.

There appeared to be one or two possible landing spots on the way, but particularly around Warrington it all looks dismal below (OK OK, and not just because it's Warrington!).

[Barshifter]

Airbus38

Flew through the LLR on a dull Monday afternoon in June this year.Passed a couple of helicopters and Grp A.What did catch my eye though as I happened to look up was a 747 Leaving Manchester going right over the top of me.Closest I've been to one of the big boys and before you ask yes I was under the maximum height.

Regards

Barshifter

[Airbus38]

Have experienced similar. My question is more geared at whether you at any time are contravening Rule 5 - just as a recap...

(c) The 1,000 feet rule

Except with the permission in writing of the CAA, an aircraft flying over a congested area of a city town or settlement shall not fly below a height of 1,000 feet above the highest fixed obstacle within a horizontal radius of 600 metres of the aircraft.

(d) The land clear rule

An aircraft flying over a congested area of a city town or settlement shall not fly below such height as will permit, in the event of a power unit failure, the aircraft to land clear of the congested area.

So, my question is - How high are you while flying over the congested areas inside the LLR?
[EDIT] Or does this fall under the "Except with the permission in writing of the CAA"?

[Barshifter]

Airbus38

Yes I know exactly where your coming from.Emergency landing options in places are limited.Flying a microlight(as I was) you do have a few more options than say a grp A machine.

Regards

Barshifter

[tonyhalsall]

The land clear issue is only a problem to the NW of Thelwall, but you can thread through the factories and housing.

I would not worry yourself about the LLR, in fact I would be a bit concerned about your level of training if you learned at Barton and were apprehensive about the LLR ??

The LLR and transit around the Liverpool zone is a great VFR exercise and once you have done it a couple of times you will soon become familiar with the various landmarks.

An earlier poster suggested the M6 is a great visual reference, I think others may disagree because south of Thelwall the M6 is inside Manchester zone and any temptation to follow it will lead to trouble.

Personally, I would take the bull by the horns and plan a route around the LPL zone - it is challenging and good fun and if you are really worried, have someone sitting next to you with a GPS to keep an eye on things.

Tony

[rustyflyer]

Hi tiggermoth!
I've recently joined a group at Barton having gained my PPL at Hawarden earlier this year. :D
My QXC included the LLR so it can't be that bad......
Three things helped me get my head round it:
1. Flew it dual
2. Got a 1/4 mil map of the area, actually a small extract laminated at A5 size to make it really easy to use.
3. Studied this document;
http://www.bartonaerodrome.co.uk/ops_downloads.asp

I'm planning to do the same trip a you as my other half is from Llandudno so her first trip will be lunch at Caernarfon with a few orbits of the Gt Orme en-route!! Got to get current on the new plane first tho :bored:.
Others in my group reckon that they get clearance from LPL to route Burtonwood - WAL so v direct & no LLR. I looked at the maps & reckon round the North of LPL zone is barely longer then I'll fly down the coast all the way. Come back over Snowdonia if the wx is OK.
Hope this all helps, maybe we'll meet at Barton sometime.

Cheers

Russ

[Squadgy]

Others in my group reckon that they get clearance from LPL to route Burtonwood - WAL

Such a clearance would take you directly above Liverpool city centre - the clearance is almost always not above 1500ft, and therefore it would be very difficult to comply with the 'alight clear' element of Rule 5. A better routing from Barton, and the one I use, might be Barton - Wigan - Seaforth - WAL.

[rustyflyer]

Agreed Squadgy! I had the same thought about overflying the centre of Liverpool hence my thinking I would go "round the top". Some folks must have no imagination, or a very active one. The wind turbines at Seaforth are fun to look at too..... Not sure if you can see the men on the beach from 1500' tho!!

Just discovered the link to the CAA doc by MyData is the same as the one I pointed to on the Barton site just in PDF not Word, you takes your choice :}

Russ

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

You can see the 'men' on the beach. Seaforth departures from 27 at Liverpool can be uncomfortable for the same rreasons Squadgy states for the direct trans-Liverpool routing.

The LLR is an absolute non event. I've been up and down it a few times a month since I started flying in 1978. Keep a good lookout, don't fly at exactly 1250 feet, and if you talk to Manch don't, please, assume that the traffic they tell you about is the only traffic that's in there. there will be a lot more stuff that they don't know about.

SSD

[FlyingForFun]

Tonyhalsall said: "I would be a bit concerned about your level of training if you learned at Barton and were apprehensive about the LLR", and I agree. I used to instruct at Blackpool, and all of my students transitted the corridor several times dual, and at least twice solo.

My hints:

1) If you're at all unsure, get a (good) instructor to show you the route, and make sure he points out to you on the chart all the useful features in the corridor, and then points the same features out in the air.

2) Don't be afraid of feature-crawling in the LLR - it's the best way of staying inside the route.

3) Get a good instructor to fly the route with you.

4) Speak to Manchester Approach for a FIS inside the corridor. They might or might not be quiet enough to give you traffic information, but you can at least listen out to hear anyone else coming the other way, and anyone else listening out will know you're there.

5) Find a good instructor, and fly the route with him.

6) Keep your eyes open, and outside the cockpit. Knowing the features you'll use, so you spend as little time looking at your chart as possible, will help this.

It is daunting the first time you do it (I know I was daunted the first time I did it, and I was an instructor at the time), but once you've seen it, it really isn't a big deal at all.

Alternatively, if it's Caernarfon you're trying to get to, I don't have a chart to hand, but I think you can stay north of Liverpool just as easily?


Airbus was asking about low-flying rules. My understanding is that the LLR is exempt from the 1000' rule, but not from the glide clear rule. (Ref, I think, is the AIP, EGCC AD 2.22 para 7, which states: The Special Low Level Route is notified for the purposes of Rule 5(2)(a)(i) of the Rules of the Air Regulations 1996. The Special Low Level Route is also notified for the purposes of Schedule 8 PPL (Aeroplanes) sub-paragraph 2(c)(ii) and BCPL (Aeroplanes) sub-paragraph 3(g)(ii) of the Air Navigation Order 2005 when there is a flight visibility of at least 4 km (see ENR-1-4-7 paragraph 2.4.1.1 Note 4).I don't have the relevant docs to hand to confirm that the rules being quoted include the 1000' rule, but maybe someone can confirm?)

I agree that Warrington is the most difficult part - the eastern side of the corridor offers more chance of gliding clear, although a lot of the area is wooded so it might not be the prettiest forced landing ever.

Also worth noting that corridor is actually Class D airspace, and is part of the Manchester CTR. It operates under special rules which allow you to fly in it without specifically getting permission, but with certain conditions (clear of cloud, in sight of surface, max altitude 1250' on Manchester QNH, min viz 4km (strange viz to pick, I know, but 4km it is), and transitting either through the corridor or to/from an airfield inside the zone - by which I guess they mean you're not allowed to go half way down the corridor, turn around and leave without getting permission). The reference for all of this, again, is the AIP, EGCC AD 2.22 para 7.

FFF
---------------

[Small Rodent Driver]

Fly the LLR a couple of times with the track plotted on a GPS (possibly even with an experienced pilot). You will soon get to recognise ground features. Warrington, Stretton, Northwich, Anderton Boat Lift, Ashcroft etc.etc.

[tiggermoth]

Thanks for all your tips on the LLR.

It's best to ask the question rather than fall foul and spoiling somebody's day I suppose! (new to Barton) The CAA guide (thanks MyData) was really helpful - it doesn't look quite as daunting!

I'm not too confident on being able to 'land clear' though in the event of an engine failure...

From looking at my route then, from the advice posted, my first choice will be to request transit throught the Liverpool airspace, second choice will be to go North and around the Liverpool airspace, then finally, the LLR.

It really is the thought of a forced landing that concerns me, and also bumping into somebody else trying to do the same thing as me...

[Airbus38]

One thing I must applaud is that you are thinking zone transit first - to be honest as far as I've seen people prefer the LLR because you're not looking to get any kind of clearance. In terms of confidence, I think you'll find a zone transit with all associated RT etc. far more rewarding.

As an aside, the Air Tragic at Liverpool are extremely helpful and you should have no problems with them whatsoever.

[cessna l plate]

Got to agree. I went down the LLR a couple of years ago as a nav exercise from Liverpool, and it gave me the willies on many different levels.

Not only are there problems with landing clear in some parts of it, at that altitude you don't half get banged about, or at least I did. On the basis that no-one ever collided with the sky I think it a tad too low for my comfort anyway.

Sone advice I got was first ask Liverpool for a zone transit, routing Kirkby - LPL - Whitegate, normally given in most cases. Second, if you do have to use the LLR, talk to Liverpool, yes the AIP says talk to Manchester, but Liverpool are less busy and are likely to give you a better service. I made the decision after that flight that I wouldn't want to go near it again, too bumpy and the old pilots / bold pilots thing was going through my head.

To go to Cae from Barton I would pitch out north and then track along the Liverpool zone and pick up the coast at Point of Ayre and route along the coast.

[Microfright]

As someone who has the pleasure/misfortune of living near the middle of Warrington, I'm frequently surprised by the number of G.A. and microlight aircraft who over fly the centre of the town.

I tend to agree with the other comments that the eastern side is the best place to transit Warrington.

If flying from Barton watch out for the gas pumping station at Rixton (another commonly over flown area).

[twizzle]

Have used the Manchester LLR many times. No hassle RT.

COM : Q)EGTT/QCSXX/IV/B/AE/000/095/5321N00216W015
FROM 06/10/23 00:01 TO 07/04/30 23:59 A2616/06
E)PILOTS FLYIMG WI 5NM OF THE MANCHESTER CTR AND MAINTAINING A
LISTENING WATCH ON MANCHESTER APCH FREQ 135.0MHZ MAY SELECT
TRANSPONDER CODE 7366 IN ORDER TO ALERT ATC TO THEIR PRESENCE. PILOTS
SQUAWKING 7366 WILL RECEIVE NO ATC SERVICE. THIS TRIAL DOES NOT
AFFECT NORMAL FIS SERVICE

[gingernut]

Nothing much to add. If you draw a line on your 1/4 mil from Leigh Flash to the Resevoir in Nantwich, there are a few distinctive landmarks visible. I haven't got my map with me, but from memory, distant landmarks useful for checking gross errors include the cooling towers at fiddlers ferry, Widnes, (to the West), the distinctive shape of the Frodsham Hills (W), Thelwall Viaduct (E), Marbury and Pickmere (E).

Nearer landmarks include Warrington, the distinctive shape of the rivers (?Weaver) and its relationship to the canals, the Salt Works at Northwhich, the sandbanks of Sandiway and Ashcroft Farm?Oulton Park racetrack.

Have a chat with the instructors at Barton, they're all very approachable.

PS just remembered the Croft interchange (junction of m62/m6) and the disused airfield off the M56 (Is it Stretton??) to the North of the corridor, and the radio telescope (?Calverly) to the south.

[avidflyer]

As an added aid if going south, you can dial up WHI on the ADF and aim slightly to the left! In practice the LLR is more feared than fearsome, after the first time you quickly realise that you cannot get lost in it as there are so many features to follow. Incidentally my preferred route to CAE is down the LLR then Wrexham and either direct over Snowdon or Ruthin - Llandudno if cloud prevents. A return trip via Point of Ayr, Seaforth and Wigan while talking to Liverpool will give a good spread of techniques to practice in the one trip.

[Ringway Flyer]

This is one we often do from MAN. (We need the LLR when on 06). When in the LLR it is beneficial to listen out on 135.000, and if you have 7366 up they know you're listening. FIS is available, but will be limited if it's busy. From the southern end of the route head for Wrecsam and then turn NW towards Ruthin. Follow the valley out to Abergele and then just follow the coast.... This will keep you clear of controlled airspace. If the cloud base is high enough, the direct route over the hills is good too. Good cakes and other grub at Caernarfon. :ok:

[Cat.S]

I've flown the LLR many times (I also live under it) and have usually been talking to LPL at the time, finding them very helpful. There's not nearly as much traffic as you'd think, but some of it (micro and ultralight) does not always show on their radar and a very good lookout is needed. Some of the traffic is also very interesting, having seen Spitfires, a P47 and the Catalina at various times in flight. 4km vis may be the legal minimum, but I wouldn't even consider less than 12km, especially as there may be something a lot faster than you coming in the opposite direction. It's also very bumpy with winds above 12 knots or when very hot, so a higher, northern route may be better if you have passengers who are worried by turbulence. (The same goes for the Menai Straits weekdays, when Valley keep you below 1500').

[FlyingForFun]

Some of the traffic is also very interesting, having seen Spitfires, a P47 and the Catalina at various times in flight
Hehehe, reminds me of an incident a couple of years ago.

I was on Blackpool's frequency at the time, and my boss was ferrying the company Cessna Citation somewhere. Can't remember exactly where he was going, but it was only a short hop, and the weather was good, so he decided to go VFR to avoid airways charges.

I heard him asking Blackpool ATC if it was possible for them to co-ordinate him through Manchester's airspace, and ATC asked him to stand by (presumably while they phoned Manchester). A couple of minutes later, ATC got back to him with the message that if he was VFR, Manchester would expect him to go down the LLR.

It was a little while before I got around to asking him about it. By the time I did, he'd almost forgotten the entire incident. He looked blank for a moment or two while he recalled it, then this look of horror appeared on his face. "Oh boy, yes, I remember it now. We got tangled up with a Pitts Special doing aeros in the Barton overhead. I'm certainly not going to be going down the LLR again in the Citation for a while!"

FFF
----------------

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I once met the BBMF in the LLR between Winsford and Northwich, me going south, them north. Manch contoller asked if I had them in sight (I did, Lancaster with a Hurricane on his right wing, Spitfire on left wing), "And BBMF", he said "do you have Sierra Lima in sight?". "Yes, we have the Chippy" came the muffled voice from the Lancaster.

As we got close, the Spitfire pulled up into a lovely barrell roll, before re-positioning on the Lanc's wing tip. One old RAF taildragger saluting another - sure made my day!:)

SSD

[machinehead]

There are a few things to add to what you good people have already said.
Firstly, be aware of the southern part of the corridor (around Ashcroft Farm/Oulton Park racing circuit) is one of the busiest joining/leaving points for VFR traffic operating through the Liverpool zone.
Secondly, someone mentioned seeing a B747 operating from Manchester while in the corridor. Liverpool controllers will vector traffic for ILS approach to runway 27 800 feet above the corridor. You will at some point have a lovely view of a B737 or A319 or bigger during you travels.
Third, be careful using the M6 southbound. As mentioned before the motorway goes into the Manchester zone fairly soon after you pick it up from Barton.
Finally, and most importantly, if you are unsure of your position or have any worries, TELL A CONTROLLER!! We may be busy but ultimately we are there to help everyone conduct their flights safely.
:ok: