Helicopter down - North Sea Dutch sector

[ppheli]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/21/europe/EU_GEN_Netherlands_Helicopter_Crash.php

"THE HAGUE, Netherlands: A helicopter believed to be carrying 17 people crashed into the North Sea near the Dutch port of Den Helder late Tuesday night, national broadcaster NOS reported.

Rescue workers pulled 10 people out of the water, the NOS reported. Their condition was not immediately known.

Coast guards were searching for survivors. No further details were immediately available."

[chinook<NL>]

It was britows puma G-JSAR with 17 pob. everybody rescued.

[charron]

From
AP World News

THE HAGUE, Netherlands -- A helicopter carrying 17 people crashed into the North Sea near the Dutch port of Den Helder Tuesday night and all 17 people aboard were rescued, the Coast Guard said.

The search and rescue helicopter, a twin-engined Super Puma, crashed into the sea about 15 miles northwest of Den Helder after reporting engine trouble, said Dutch Coast Guard spokesman Frank de Ridder.


All safe, empty boat on the Styx tonight. A big Thanks to all the safety equipment we carry "just in case". I wonder about the engine problem. It shouldn't have ditched if at least one was working.

charron

[Aser]

I'm glad they are all ok. :ok:

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Glad to hear that everyone came out alive:) ...looking forward to finding out the cause of the accident.(For the right reasons)

[22clipper]

What a delicious turn of phrase Charron! We have a Styx river here in Oz, I flew over it on one of our trips to Queensland, then I turned around & flew back the other way 'cause I didn't want to take no one way ride over the Styx.

Glad to hear all 17 souls accounted for!

[cyclic]

Glad to hear they are all ok. Just out of interest, why 17 pob? Had they been on a job?

[HeliEng]

Cyclic,

Yes, BBC are reporting that it was carrying workers for a North Sea Oil Platform that had suffered a Power Failure.

[check]

This was not a crash, every time an aircraft lands "out of sequence" it has to be a crash. Why?

This was a controlled ditching following engine "problems" followed by flight control "problems". The helicopter is on the beach (yes beach) so no doubt these problems will, we hope will be found and sorted so all the other L2 drivers can sleep well at night again.

As well as being the SAR helicopter it also does the night standby cover for the oil patch. Which was the reason for last night's flight.

As reported previously, all are well.

[HeliEng]

check,

I am not doubting your info, but BBC News are reporting that it ditched 15 miles off of the coast.

[cyclic]

Thanks for the update. I have a special interest as the one I fly looks very similar to yours!

[check]

HeliEng,

You are correct, it ditched about 25km from Den Helder and is I believe on the beach at Texel. The heli remained afloat, how it made it to the beach I'm not sure. My guess it was towed.

[HeliEng]

Sounds like a fab job done by the crew. Congrats all round!!!

[pistongone]

Well it proves all the survival coourses we go on are money well spent! I am a contractor for AMEC and we have to pay £600 every 2 years for the ticket. I wont be moaning next time i pay it:ok: Am i correct in thinking the Choppers have emergency floatation systems? If so were they deployed?

[HeliEng]

pistongone,

They certainly are equipped with flotation systems. If the aircraft ditched 15 miles offshore and made it to the beach, I would think it would be fairly safe to assume they were deployed.

[Hummingfrog]

Pistongone

If you are flying out of Humberside with CHC it will be in a S76C or Dauphine 365N2 not a Puma 332L2 (we have floats as well:) )

HF

(Well done to the G-JSAR crew)

[pistongone]

Hummingfrog, do you fly from Humberside? I am going back out in a few days. But it's only to Rough Bravo so 20 mins:ok: Does the S76C have floatation systems?

[rotorrookie]

No pictures??

[fox niner]

Here it is, after being washed ashore on the island of Texel:

http://www.texel-plaza.nl/nieuws/afbeeldingen/25593helikopter2net.jpg

[skadi]

Here's another picture:

http://www.nhd.nl/multimedia/archive/00188/heli01_188020c.jpg

http://www.nhd.nl/nieuws/stadstreek/denhelder/article1173630.ece

According to another pressrelease, a coastguard boat followed the abandoned helicopter a while, but a soon as the floating machine reaches shallow waters, this was not possible anymore. So the H/C finally reached the beach on its own.

[NickLappos]

Very interesting! This is a BRISTOW Super Puma that ditched with a load of pax, perhaps allowing them to use the large, handy escape windows. Pity that helicomparitor did not help us understand this one, unlike his extremely helpful discussions when other brand helicopters have cockpit lights come on, and he wonders out loud if that should affect their engine failure probabilities.

What say you, hc, should this engine problem, followed by flight control problem be counted in some way?

Seriously, it is good that all made it out ok.

[Blue Rotor Ronin]

According to decent info, they had ng problems in one engine @ 3k, descended to low level, had ng probs on the other engine, then intermittent hydraulic locking on the controls, they ditched and thankfully all made it out... nicely done. :ok:

[simfly]

Looking at the photo taken from the front right of the heli, it looks like the windows are still there and the main door has been slid forward though the captain's door is open. The chaps would have only gone through the windows if the heli had capsized. looks to me that they should have been able to walk into the rafts, I don't know how the evacuation went though and if this was the case...

[Aser]

According to decent info, they had ng problems in one engine @ 3k, descended to low level, had ng probs on the other engine, then intermittent hydraulic locking on the controls, they ditched and thankfully all made it out... nicely done. :ok:

That's really BAD LUCK! :uhoh:

[Hummingfrog]

Pistongone

That would be telling;)

The S76C does indeed have floats as do all helicopters that are used in the offshore industry.

If you are going to the Rough 3B you will be travelling in a 365N2 and it should only take 15mins.

HF

[pistongone]

Hummingfrog,
Its 47Bravo we are off to. We have just got it back online, and its close out time and home for Christmas.:ok: Rough has two main platforms Alpha and Bravo funnily enough:} and the Bravo platform blew up back in February. We have just re-commisioned it and are in the process of handing over the asset, to use management Bull$£!T. So maybe see you there!

[HeliComparator]

Nick

I am sure my colleagues who spent some time in the water at midnight will be warmed and comforted by your gloating. You really aren't a very nice person are you.

And no, this was not a 225 so only normal sized windows (bigger than the S92's none the less)

From the scant info so far, it seems that the engine problem was not why they ditched - both engines were producing useful power and governing rrpm. It was the control malfunction. It is not nice to be flying along and unable to move the cyclic, even if only intermittently.

I presume these are linked but just how is not known at this stage, and I see no point in speculating. The AAIB will come up with the answers in due course.

HC

[finalchecksplease]

Got to say I’m somewhat disappointed with your comments Mr Lappos, don’t believe this is the right thread to take pot-shots at HC or the Super Puma.
Have been following the other thread and there imho you also show signs of a being a bad loser (not sure there are any “losers” but that’s the way some of your replies come over to me).
Had thought a man of your calibre, experience would be above that kind of things.
For now and back to the thread I will be very interested to find out what really happened and the causes, but think we will have to wait for the AAIB for that.

Greetings

Finalchecksplease

[sox6]

fcp Spot on.:ok:

Many of us Mr Lappos do not feel this is an occassion to shoot cheap shots at our competitors, and immediately offered what help we could. It is beyond me why someone is so keen to rubbish their former employers competitors products. Perhaps Dassault & Bombardier should be better targets for a bizjet man...:yuk:

Well done to the crew. A job well done in a difficult situation by all accounts.:D:D :D :D

A minor correction: As the accident occured in waters of The Netherlands, the accident will be investigated by what is known as the De Onderzoeksraad voor veiligheid (the Dutch Safety Board) since the old RVTV's role was expanded in 2005.:)

The last helicopter accident in our sector was 9 years ago:
http://www.safetyboard.nl/publications/rvtv/981022271.pdf
This report, perhaps not as read wide as it should, helped justify the SAR aircraft at Den Helder. You will see the benefit of escape features and recommendations for more work in this area. This report shows there are many reasons to use an escape window not just after a mechanical failure. :=

And, I hardly dare mention it, you may also note a recommendation for AVAD.;)

When the Safety Board report is published the wise men will learn from it just as the wise men learnt from PH-KHB. :ok:

Nor do wise men only want to improve safety when they or their friends have something to sell. :=

Lets hope JSAR is back in the air soon.;)

[Hippolite]

Second "accident" to a 332L2 in two weeks. Likely unrelated but not a good time for EC.

Helicomparitor, wouldn't HUMS pick up problems before a possible engine problem became significant enough to cause control issues? Isn't that what its meant to do, detect problems early to prevent this kind of thing? Is the system on the 225 more advanced than the L2?

HH

[sox6]

If someone doesn't want to speculate (much!) on the cause, is it a bit optimistic to ask them to speculate on the solution on the same day as the accident?:rolleyes:

[419]

wouldn't HUMS pick up problems before a possible engine problem became significant enough to cause control issues?

Yes, but only if it was a fault that had started to develop before the last IHUMS download.
I don't know how long this particular aircraft had been flying, but if it was on the return sector, it may have been 2-3 hours, during which time a sudden engine fault may have occured, so IHUMS wouldn't have helped.

[Hilico]

Chaps, I feel that Mr Lappos is not satirizing (his spelling!) the machine so much satirizing as the commentators. A bit like Private Eye in the UK.

[sox6]

I think you try make nobel something that is not!

sat·i·rize tr.v. sat·i·rized, sat·i·riz·ing, sat·i·riz·es
To ridicule or attack by means of satire.
sat‧ire  /–noun 1.the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

Using an accident to do that is in bad taste and 'deriding the folly' of being able to escape through large windows (or looking at the photos - doors) is ill judged IMHO.

Plus people pay for Private Eye because it is funny.

[HeliComparator]

HH

I think it would be a mistake to assume that the problem stemmed from an engine problem. The only engine problem was a mismatch in power settings. Personally I think we may find that the root cause of the accident caused both the engine problem and the control problem. There are some possible scenarios but I am not going to speculate at this stage.

HUMS on the 225 is called M'ARMS and yes its a later design than the EuroARMS on the L2.

sox - when I said the AAIB I did of course mean the Dutch version but not knowing what they were called, AAIB was as close as I could get! Sorry about that!

HC

[tottigol]

Glad everyone made it out OK.:D :D :D :D
Very glad, as a ditching at night (even though a controlled one)presents itself with many additional difficulties.:ok: :ok: :ok:
Even happier 'cause one of my buddies flies 332s out of Den Helder.

[chinook<NL>]

This was not a crash, every time an aircraft lands "out of sequence" it has to be a crash. Why?
This was a controlled ditching following engine "problems" followed by flight control "problems". The helicopter is on the beach (yes beach) so no doubt these problems will, we hope will be found and sorted so all the other L2 drivers can sleep well at night again.
As well as being the SAR helicopter it also does the night standby cover for the oil patch. Which was the reason for last night's flight.
As reported previously, all are well.
ok it was a controlled ditch. but check the time of the post, it was almost realtime. it was not clear what happend yet, only everbody was safe. and it floated to the coast, not landed there.

[Norman Nimrod]

Glad everyone made it out safe, Have to say well done to the crew, cannot have been easy ditching at night with a control restriction.

I flew out of Den Helder today on the other Tiger, G-TIGJ.

On check in at Den Helder we were offered a brief on the incident if we so wished, I went just because I am a Radio Operator and wondered if there was anything that would be useful if I ever received such a call, plus I used to work in the ARCC while in light blue and wondered about the SAR response. Nothing new to add to what has already been posted but I did notice that during our video brief you could have heard a pin drop, I dont think anyone even moved. As someone who has had to stop video briefs before on other rigs due to the guys going back to the beach just chatting while it was running it was a noticeable change. Makes me wonder why it isnt always like that.

Again, just glad that all are safe.

[Roofus]

Glad to hear everyone made it out ok! :ok:

Nice flying! :)

Also glad to see a machine sat upright in the water! Reassuring to see the flot bags work! :D



Ashamed to see people using a thread like this to have a pop at anything or anyone! :=

Congrats to the crew!

[mike666]

Everyone please note that the starboard doors on Eurocopter 332 aircraft are liable to jam when jettisoned if a winch frame is attached. This has been highlighted to Bristow crews. Probably why the Starboard Door was slid open and locked for the evacuation.(The door can drop down on the lower projecting winch frame and rotate such that it traps against the sponson making egress difficult):ugh: .

[Vertical T/O]

http://www.nhd.nl/multimedia/archive/00188/heli_188271e.jpg
Well done Crew

[Langball]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question - but what are the chances of her flying again ?.

I've always wondered about the risk of putting a machine back in the air that has been immersed (even partially) in sea water. Is it a 'no-no' or 'depends'.

[NorthSeaTiger]

Will the AAIB not be involved if it is a G registered aircraft ? Posts seem to imply it is still registered as G-JSAR, good to see everyone got out and the aircraft looks reasonably intact.

[IFMU]

Got to say I’m somewhat disappointed with your comments Mr Lappos, don’t believe this is the right thread to take pot-shots at HC or the Super Puma.
finalchecksplease,
I assume you are equally dissapointed with Helicomparitor for taking pot-shots at Nick's S92 in the other thread? Or was that OK because the crew & pax didn't get wet?
-- IFMU

[NickLappos]

finalchecksplease,

You certainly have the right to think what you will.

I was actually simply pointing out that mr. helicomparitor was EXTREMELY quick to post about an S92 turnback due to warning lights, but quite absent from this thread.

There is some kind of goose-gander thing going on here, I think.

I also have the greatest respect for the crew who got their passengers to safety, and frankly derive no pleasure whatsoever at anyone's misfortune, regardless of which helicopter or operator is involved.

I

[noooby]

NorthSeaTiger,

From memory, the State of Occurrence normally leads an investigation, with the State of Registration and the State of Manufacture able to help if requested. If the State of Occurrence does not have the ability to conduct the investigation, it may delegate (usually to the State of Registration) another party to conduct the investigation.

[Captain Catastrophy]

Lets try and avoid this becoming a slanging match please.

Most Puma drivers will be concerned at the loss of two L2s in such a short period of time and will be keen to discover exactly what happened rather than endless speculation.

Having said that, without actually knowing who helicomparator is, it would seem from his posts that he is in a senior position within Bristow and may therefore be involved in both the company as well as the Authority's investigations and it would therefore be wholly inappropriate either for him to speculate or divulge information which might prejudice the same. An accident is somewhat different to an incident in that it takes much longer for information to be released and an explanation forwarded. Let's not be too quick off the mark here.

Ditching an aircraft at night is a horrible decision to have to make, the crew deserve a lot credit for dealing with the situation to a successful outcome

[industry insider]

As Hippolite and Captain Catastrophe said, many will be very concerned about the loss of 2 x 332L2 in 3 weeks.

However, the latest updates from Exxon Mobil show that aircraft mechanical issues are no longer being examined as a likely cause in the MHS Accident. This would tend to sever any tenuous connections which may be mistakenly drawn between the two occurrences.

Below is an extract from a recent communication from the head of Exxon Mobil Aviation to other Oil and Gas companies.

"At this time, all indications are that there was nothing mechanically wrong with the helicopter. The investigation team will now focus on the analysis of the CVR/FDR and HUMS data and an initial review of this data is scheduled for the end of November 2006 in Paris.
The AS332L1 and AS332L2 fleet in Malaysia has been returned to service following the implementation of revised weather criteria for VFR operations and additional training for all AS332L2 pilots in instrument flying, unusual attitude recovery and coordination exercises. A number of other recommendations will be offered to EMEPMI management in the immediate future.Finally, the use of Airborne Radar Approaches (ARAs) has been suspended for all helicopter types in Malaysia until further notice."

[jayteeto]

The Grim Reaper ditched an RAF Puma a few years ago that went under and was recovered successfully. They left it in a hangar to fizz for a few months then overhauled it back to flying state I believe. It took a long time though!!

[Gomer Pylot]

If the aircraft has been treated with Corrosion-X, there is often no problem at all. It works very well at preventing corrosion from both the salt in the air and from salt water. It's good stuff.

[ppheli]

A dozen or so good close up photos of the beached G-JSAR at
http://www.texelairport.nl/index.html?fotogroot2006/gjsar.htm&2

[ShyTorque]

I would like to say one thing......which is "Very well done" to the crew who obviously made a textbook night ditching.

I hope the underwear washed OK. :ok:

[The Hustler]

A dozen or so good close up photos of the beached G-JSAR at
http://www.texelairport.nl/index.html?fotogroot2006/gjsar.htm&2
On the 6th picture down, it appears that the door is being obstructed by the front left float. I admit this is pure speculation, but if there was a partial failure to inflate with only the port floats triggered, wouldn't the craft roll onto it's right side, leaving this door as the exit for both crew? If the float gets in the way of it opening, that could lead to delays in exiting.

Obviously in this case all floats worked, and there was a choice of exits - it's just something I was wondering about . .

[Aesir]

On the Super Puma there is an emergency release or ejection handle to jettison the door so the float jamming the door should not be an issue.

Obviously in this case the crew elected not to jettison the door.

[The Hustler]

I realise that there are ways to jettison doors, but remember that under very stressful conditions people often revert to an action that they have performed hundreds or thousands of times before - i.e. opening a door by the handle.

There are several cases where this has led to fatalities in incidents as the crew have reverted to a method they have used before. Some of the incidents have had a massive loss of life.

Coming to this with fresh eyes, it just seems to me that there may be a small area of potential improvement in design.

[Um... lifting...]

On the 6th picture down, it appears that the door is being obstructed by the front left float. I admit this is pure speculation, but if there was a partial failure to inflate with only the port floats triggered, wouldn't the craft roll onto it's right side, leaving this door as the exit for both crew? If the float gets in the way of it opening, that could lead to delays in exiting.

Obviously in this case all floats worked, and there was a choice of exits - it's just something I was wondering about . .

I can't speak for the Puma having no experience in the machine, but from the recesses of memory, I seem to recall that the Dauphin flotation gear is set up so that one bottle inflates the forward left and the rear right and similarly on the other side... just in case of this very scenario (let's say a bottle fails or isn't inspected or a line leaks). Still definitely not optimal, but at least leaving a functional exit on each side of the aircraft and will not put quite as large a rolling moment on the machine.
Also consider a ditch into shallow water (say a couple meters deep) with a roll. The side toward which the aircraft rolls, no way you'll get out there (this very thing happened to a friend of mine some dozen years ago, thankfully all survived with no major injuries).
As I was trained, if one knows one is going to ditch, jettison the doors, THEN bang the floats, THEN ditch. I'm not second-guessing here because there are so many things none of us know. Most definitely any one you can get that number of people out more or less unscathed is just this side of miraculous and a credit to the crew.
And finally, it struck me as odd that the machine managed to self-navigate all the way to the beach some 25km and remained upright the entire way. Until this event, I'd NEVER seen a photo of a ditched helicopter that had remained upright.

[sox6]

Um... lifting...

There are good examples of helicopters that remained afloat for some time:

S61 G-BEID of BA Helicopters was towed into Aberdeen in the 1970s
214ST G-BKFN of BCal in the 1980s (mentioned above) was aslo recovered and put back into service
214ST VH-HOQ of Lloyd ditched after a mishandled engine problem on TO and floated until the liferaft painter was cut by open blade and the bags punctured
332 G-TIBK of Bristow that was struck by ligthning in 1995 and stayed afloat for 5-6 hours in heavy seas before rolling over during salvage
332 LN-OBP of Helikopter Service ditched in 1996 after un-noticed corrosion on the rotor blades edges and stayed afloat for about 15 hours before turning over in a 7-8m swell

In fact I can't remember another controlled North Sea ditching in the last 10 years.:)

The British CAA were trying to fund test on a float system that makes the helicopter float on its side. looking at the above and the Den Helder accident that plan seems stupid as that would make recovery very unlikley.:*

[bb in ca]

umm lifting...

You said, "As I was trained, if one knows one is going to ditch, jettison the doors, THEN bang the floats, THEN ditch."

I don't like the idea of jettisoning the doors anytime before I have no need for the main or tail rotors.

There was a Bell 212 in the maldives years ago that was ditching and one of the pilots jettisoned his door and it went into the main rotor and then into the tail rotor thus turning a bad situation into a catastrophic accident.

You can read the report here. http://www.aviainfo.gov.mv/REPORTS/bell2123.htm

I would suggest unlocking the doors prior to ditching would be a great idea to reduce the chance of the locking pins binding the doors from being ditched once in or on the water.

my $0.02

bb

[Um... lifting...]

umm lifting...
You said, "As I was trained, if one knows one is going to ditch, jettison the doors, THEN bang the floats, THEN ditch."
I don't like the idea of jettisoning the doors anytime before I have no need for the main or tail rotors.


Fair enough. I certainly wouldn't jettison them with much more than about 5 knots on and I also probably wouldn't jettison my personal door if it were taking all my ability and concentration to maintain control of the machine (say, if it were a flight control issue). We also were taught to maintain control of the door and get it below the fuselage (which you obviously can't do with any kind of speed on or if both pilots are busily white-knuckling the flight controls).
That's what's taught in the U.S. military... stubborn bunch, not likely to change. That said, page one, paragraph one of all our flight manuals said: "Nothing in this manual is to be construed as a substitute for sound judgment." (or words to that effect).
There are so many factors in a ditching that I won't be so cavalier as to say that one solution fits all. Some ditchings are semi-controlled (or even uncontrolled) crashes. Some are into ridiculous sea states where blade impact, sudden stoppage and rollover are pretty much inevitable. Some are with completely untrained passengers (despite our best efforts otherwise) perhaps with a language barrier. Offloading them at night in a seaway from a pitching, rolling, and heaving helicopter is guaranteed pandemonium with a high likelihood of several dead. Any of those situations is a strong argument for getting rid of the doors early (the first due to possible frame bending and jamming the doors, the second due to passenger panic and mayhem and maybe not getting the door open at all in the melee).
While I don't know this, I surmise that our friends in the Puma opened the sliding doors prior to going in the water (I could be wrong, so those of you who partially read posts and then leap please refrain from telling me I'm wrong should it turn out that indeed I am). I can't quite work out when the pilot doors came open based upon the photos. Depending upon your machine, you might not HAVE a sliding door and a hinged cabin door might be more of a liability to keep aboard (it might puncture a float for one). Also I try to run the scenario through in my mind for the machine and profile I'm flying. So far I haven't had to test my scenarios, touch wood. Perhaps all I know is wrong. But it's possible that jettisoning some doors post ditch might not be possible depending upon your float configuration. If you have a sliding door that when slid open blocks an escape window and there are passengers in that seat, consider jettisoning the sliding door (I can speak to a couple helicopters that are configured this way).
If I really had things under control but it was clear I'd have to put it in the water and I'd have a few minutes to sort things out in the hover, I'd have the raft tossed out, have everybody plop out the door from the hover, taxi downwind and downsea a bit and put it in with just myself aboard (I KNOW I can probably get myself out). But when are you going to get that kind of luck?
From where I stand, first priority is as many people alive and bobbing in the raft as possible, second priority is minimizing injury, third or fourth is if the airframe is reusable (but it will need a lot of work regardless)... doors, so long as you keep them under control... I don't care if they rot away on the bottom of the ocean and I don't care if I have to keep the airframers in beer for a month as a consequence.
In other words... it depends, so I don't disagree with you... but in certain situations... I just might.

[bb in ca]

Um... Lifting..

I'll take what you wrote as excellent advice for any future ditchings.

You certainly have a much greater understanding of the subject then I do. I'm just a bush pilot turned IFR guy trying to find my way.

cheers,
bb

[Farmer 1]

Back to the piccies:

It seems to me that the 10 o'clock blade has just a tad more pitch than is normal. Might this be a factor in the incident?

[HeliEng]

Farmer1,

I think, looking at the pictures, that it is the "angle of the dangle".

The droop and washout on those blades tends to look a bit like that, and when you look at the other pictures it does not look as obscure.

[Farmer 1]

I think we'll agree to differ, HeliEng. The pitch at the blade root looks about 45 degrees. I can't see how that could be possible, and if it were, all the blades would be the same if the collective lever were locked down (I assume it is lockable on the Puma). The other blades seem to have flat pitch.

Anyway, time will tell. Thank God they all lived to be able to tell their grandchildren.

[roundwego]

Farmer 1, it looks fairly normal to me (as an ex puma driver). Although the collective might be locked down, I bet the cyclic isn't locked. If the aircraft has been bobbing around in the sea for a few days, the controls will have been moving a fair bit.

[Farmer 1]

Looks like I'm in a minority against people who are more knowledgeable on the subject than I am.

Hopefully, others with even more knowledge will eventually find the truth.

Neck wound in, but maybe not completely.

[Special 25]

Can someone in the know answer a question - Ditching at night, not an easy choice for anyone. Were they able to use SAR equipment (FLIR, Search Lights etc for the ditching) or was it a 'seat-of-the-pants' descent into the water ?

Either way, job well done.

[Andy Paton]

Nice to see that the blades were parked properly. I wonder why the 'other' engine didnt keep the thing in the air. being an ex-cynic off the North Sea I thought the Puma2 was supposed to be better than the others.
Good to see all inflation equipment worked as published:bored: .

[332mistress]

Andy P

Read the whole post and you will see the possible reasons for the ditching which may also explain why the 10 o'clock blade looks slightly odd in pitch.

The L2 will fly well on one engine

332M

[Hilife]

Taken from below the rotor disc, the 10°Clock Blade may appear to have higher than expected pitch, but this is countered by the opposing blade at the 4°Clock position having very little pitch, just as you would expect.

Only a thought…...

[332mistress]

Hililife

What I was alluding to reference the blade angle was that if the alleged control locking was due to a hydraulic problem, then the blades could be at odd angles due to uneven draining of the servo jacks, especially after several hours bobbing around in the N Sea

332M

[Fareastdriver]

In a high wind any AS332 blades will tend to tilt the stars over time when it is shut down and this leads to the blades being at odd angles. To prevent this later 332,s have locking rods on the floor so that the cyclic can be held central. Another locking bar for he collective looks after that. Whether GJSAR had them I would't know but it would be the last thing I would think of if I was jumping out of it into a dinghy at night.
Good on the crew. I wouldn't like to ditch anything, let alone in the dark, thank you very much.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Any names of the crew ? An old mate of mine flies out of Den Helder. Just wondering..............

Cheers,

NEO

[Gael Warning]

On the HUMS Topic, this presents an interesting case, since here we have an aircraft with engine problems in flight. The engine manufacturer in this case does not believe in rejecting engines for faults based on data collected by HUM systems in flight, only engine run up / run down vibration data. If this instance COULD have been detected by a HUMS, then perhaps the engine manufacturer needs to drag its sorry french arse out of the dark ages, and re-evaluate its procedures.

Secondly, the topic of cockpit displays has been discussed down the years at CAA and HUMS conferences, and opinions vary. As Mr Helicomparitor points out, HUMS data is only ever of use retrospectively, since data is only downloaded after flight, so then, I would throw the questions open to the crews..

1. Would you want a cockpit display to tell you that your engine was developing a malfunction? Bear in mind the severity of the malfunction would be very difficult to establish in flight, and you might feel you need to ditch, what could be an engine which is sufficient to get you home?

2. Is it not a sorry state of affairs, IF it comes to light, that (Not for the first time) an engine fault could have been detected by collecting vibe data in the cruise as opposed to run up?

Of course my questions in relation to this incident are loose and rely heavily on supposition, however, they may yet prove to be very pertinent, well to those in the HUMS business anyway:hmm: .

The AAIB report will make interesting reading.

Again, my congratulations to the crew, technology is one thing, but when you are about to go splash into the North Sea, they have proved that science and technology is no substitute for skill and a huge pair of gonads!!:ok:

GW

[malabo]

It seems so rare for an offshore helicopter to actually end up in the water with the floats deployed so we hardly ever get to study what should be done next. Since GJAX is the SAR machine with a well-trained crew I expect they set a good example, or at least followed what the ditching gods felt should be the procedure.

OK, so now GJAX is bobbing in the water with the floats deployed and 15 pax and 2 crew inside in the pitch black of night 15 miles offshore. Do they leave the battery on and the cabin lights, use the emergency lighting, leave the strobes on to make it easier for the surface rescue boats or other helicopters to find them?

Looks like it floated pretty good since it managed to drift right-side up all night to a beach. Did everyone leave the warm, well-lit cabin and jump into the rafts, were the rafts tethered to the aircraft, anybody slip and fall in the water, did the lights on the lifejackets work? Looking at the pictures of them hoisting the helicopter on the beach can anyone tell if both liferafts were deployed?

Were all 17 winched out of the water or the rafts by another helicopter or did a boat get to them first?

Sorry for all the questions, I always figure I can take care of my end and get it into the water with the floats deployed. It is the afterward that I have nightmares about - maybe pepperspraying panicky passengers, or using that Nigerian crash axe to be more selective on a bad apple that is compromising everyone's safety.

Malabo

[HeliEng]

Has anyone got any further news?

Have there been any Fleet checks, ASB's or the like as a follow-up to the event?

[HeliComparator]

Gael - your point on HUMS may have some general validity, but in this case the ditching was nothing to do with an engine malfunction - there was no power loss or lack of rrpm governing. They ditched because the cyclic was intermittently locking. Whilst there is still no word as to the cause, I very much doubt the root cause was engine related.

Regarding your general point, just what should the HUMS system be monitoring? There follows some general waffle from me, which I hope someone will take issue with!

A factor that makes HUMS relatively easy for transmission monitoring is that the transmission rotational speed is pretty much constant. I suppose this does apply to the power turbine section of the engine, but not to the compressor section.

The variable rotational speed of the compressor section results in a vibration signature that changes dramatically with rpm. Its difficult to set limits or do any clever processing of the data as a result. This is why the manufacturers only use run up / down data and check the max vibration amplitude. This should pick up bearing wear, out of balance etc and these are the sort of faults that tend to progress relatively slowly. Other faults such as cracked combustion chamber, FCU malfunctions etc cannot really be detected by current HUMS technology (other than by power assurance checks.)

The other general point is that there is only one transmission, a complex set of gears and bearings working under high load. Any faults in this can be catastrophic. However there are two engines and assuming you are operating PC 1 or even 2, the chances of an engine failure causing a major problem is remote. This is especially true with aircraft certified to the latest standards as there is now much higher safety required for overspeed situations that previously could have damaged the remaining engine or the aircraft.

The cockpit display question is an old one. When HUMS was developed the decision was made on the grounds that a false warning could result in an unnecessary ditching and loss of life. The technology was (and still is imho) not robust enough to justify a warning that says "ditch now". If the warning is not going to say that, there is not much point in having it.

Helieng - no hint yet as to the cause. EC's only output is a letter informing operators of the bare facts of the ditching - it runs to about 4 lines of text!

HC

[Geoffersincornwall]

Eurocopter have issued a service letter that basically says that initial investigations show no fault found but investigations are continuing.

G

[HeliEng]

HC,

So your assumption of the cause not being an engine problem is probably correct then! Manufacturers are normally pretty quick to respond to events like this if they believe there are airworthiness issues with their products, and sometimes even when nothing is proven!!!!!

Time will tell I guess!

[Gael Warning]

HC - Having been in the HUMS game long enough, and probably worked with you at some point or other, I was just asking for general opinion. I too see HUMS as insufficiently developed to be of use as a primary fault warning system.

On the subject of compressors, as you are aware, the offending frequency is easily identified as 1x or 2x etc from the Ng tacho or an MPU. However I'm not advocating one over the other, between cruise and run up, simply both.

As you correctly point out, no system is mature enough, and I include the systems from the competitors down southampton way in this, to be able to facilitate a cockpit display, however since one earlier correspondent ventured the question of whether HUMS should identify this type of thing, I merely wished to canvass / galvanise opinion that this subject, which has clear and present safety benefits, seems to have fallen by the wayside, possibly due to lack of interest from EASA. However, it is sufficiently matured to warrant seeing the project through to a third phase, and perhaps a more successful one at that.

However I have no wish to detract this thread from a spectacularly fine display from the crew.:D

[SASless]

It is not nice to be flying along and unable to move the cyclic, even if only intermittently.

Helicomp......Bristow had an S-76 in Nigeria flying for Shell that had numerous incidents of the cyclic freezing as if stuck in concrete. The situation caused more than one pilot to pack his bags and seek other employment. Perhaps a personnel check to see if there are any similarities in staffing between the two bases might be productive.

The 76 was finally....after many occurrences....was cured by a thorough check of the rigging and controls which surfaced a mis-rigging and corrosion problem. Something along the lines of critical items being missed on inspection and overhaul as I recall.

[malabo]

"However I have no wish to detract this thread from a spectacularly fine display from the crew."

To put a helicopter into the water at night and have everybody safe and sound is no small feat, and the crew can be rightfully commended.

For the before and after I'll reserve my compliments for now, since we don't know what really happened and everyone seems to be unusually tight-lipped. Isn't this supposed to be a rumor forum? Where are the rumors?

Was it really a jammed cyclic? Were the engines really oscillating? Did a pilot leave his thick duster novel under the friction clam (happens on the 212/412)? Reminds me of one of our pilots that got an engine out light and horn on a 206, then through force of habit rolled the throttle off and did a spectacular autorotation into a narrow fiord. As the belly sank in the water, one of the passengers yelled "hey the engine is still running". Which it was of course - simple N1 tach failure. We can still commend the pilot for the spectacular autorotation, but the picture gets a little tarnished with a sunk helicopter that didn't have to be.

malabo

[212man]

The 'story' I heard, from a relatively direct and reliable chain, involved both pilots pulling the cyclic to try and budge it. I think that goes beyond the N1 tacho failure scenario!

Well done to the crew: rather you than me:uhoh:

[check]

I posted some photo's of an Alouette 3 on its side in Iran. It had a failure in the hyd system that left the pilot with only fore and aft or lateral cyclic, can't remember which. The helicopter was less than one year old, the pilot walked away uninjured.

[ppng]

This seems to have gone very quiet, very quickly. Does anyone have the skinny on what really happened?

[gnow]

I just read a notice today in my crewroom that they have so far found nothing wrong with the controls.

[jonnyloove]

I have Heard The Airframe is getting scrapped due to being impounded the the Dutch Authoritys and now getting washed and Lubed in time once it was lifted from the water. A great shame nice machine.:D

[Jigsaw]

Anybody know whether they are selling parts for spares?

[Wizzard]

Jigsaw


I'd leave the seat cushions well alone if I were you;)