Advice for large passengers

[Tolsti]

Good to see an airline providing practical suggestions

http://www.yemenia.com/new2/magazin/20/03.pdf

[BOFH]

I read through it, despondent to see that they had left out 'Lose some weight, you pig'.

Select your flight carefully - if the plane is only half full
they might just be able to take off.

Work to get an empty seat beside you
if your potential neighbours don't do it for you.

Preboard
Many airlines allow people with special needs to board ahead of the rest of the other passengers
Given that these people are usually elderly, in a wheelchair, or otherwise incapacitated, chow down a burger before your flight, because hey - you're special too!

Check out the tray table
Is that skinny guy in front of you denying you room to scoff your body weight in fries? "Stewardess!!!!! HELP ME - I CAN'T EAT!!!"

Put up the armrest
Spill your mounds of sweaty, odiferous adipose tissue onto the person next to you - before takeoff! Let him feel the pillowed fat of your atrophied, soft arm, and to Hell with regulations.

Ask for a seatbelt extender
In the event of an incident, you'll be needed as a valued passenger to (a) block the exit; then (b) collapse the slide and ensure the people behind you pick up the insurance for those cool compound fractures and third-degree burns.

Plan for restroom problems
Many aircraft restrroms are so small as to be unusable by people chucking hippos into the lavatories. Try to block the ones at the airport before travelling. Ask if there is a handicapped restroom on board so you can sit there for hours while old people have to irrigate the aisle.

Work on having a sense of humour
When someone calls you a vile, worthless, corpulent and palpable drain on the Universe's resources, it's just a wee joke. And aren't people like you meant to be jolly?

BOFH

[Juud]

Thanks for that Tolsti, as you say, good to see some practical ideas.
It is a very real problem, and we encounter it more and more frequently.
It's HUGE PIA for all concerned.
To my mind, anybody who doesn't fit inot 1 seat, needs to buy 2. Very simple.

Of course, too many beancounters are entirely uninterested in what actually happens on aircraft, and do not have the managerial capacity to even attempt solving this very real problem.

Leaving it too harassed Check In agents and FAs to inadequately deal with on an ad hoc basis.
Not god enough by half. :*

[TightSlot]

Mentioned before, but Southwest have clearly thought about the problem too, and dealt with it rather well HERE (http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_qa.html)

[Juud]

Thanks TightSlot, have sent that link to the company, with a strong recommandation. :ok:

[radeng]

This suggests a whole new way of making money. Reduce the width of the seat so a 'normal' (whatever that is) size person can't fit, and then insist that they buy two seats! Mr. O'Leary, it's my idea, but you can have it for a percentage!!

[flybywire]

....at times they [the flight attendants] might not have enough extenders or may not be able to locate one. In those cases, what most frequently happens is that the oversized person pretends to buckle the seat belt and the flight attendant pretends not to notice...

Excuse me....what?!? :=

...if you fly frequently, you might want to purchase your own seat belt extender to carry with you, which alleviates all the concerns about inconsiderate flight attendants who embarass passengers by noisily delivering the extender and possible unavailable extenders.

Again.....what?!? :=

Anybody can explain? What the heck is up with Yemenia?!?

BTW radeng, MOL has already had this idea, in fact his latest "no recline" seats are by far the smallest, narrowest seats I've ever travelled in (and I am a size 6)....I believe as soon as the charging for pre-boarding is in full swing he'll just do what you have suggested :ooh:

FBW

PS: tightslot please do not delete my quotes, I actually had to write the text as it wouldn't let me copy and paste. Plus, I am quoting something relevant and it's not a repetition. Thank you!:)

[Getoutofmygalley]

Inconsiderate flight attendants who embarass passengers by noisily delivering the extender and possible unavailable extenders.

So now we know that Yemenia has inconsiderate flight attendants that deliberately embarass our more filled out pax :* And instead of Yemenia teaching them how to deliver an extender in a non-embarassing way, they advise pax to buy their own.

Way to go on customer service! :yuk:

[flybywire]

Not just that, which I totally agree with, but apparently this is an extract from an article that was in their own in-flight magazine?!? :eek:

If my company wrote something like that in our magazine about flight attendants and our safety equipment (or lack of:rolleyes: ), there would be an insurrection to get rid of the people responsible for those words!! :ouch:

[Getoutofmygalley]

FBW I know, it also said about unable to locate the extenders in the PDF document which makes it sound as if the crew do not know the location of SEP equipment onboard the aircraft. Yememia is one airline that I will not be flying with! :*

[Juud]

I mean, I don't know about you guys/gals, but there have been times, on a full night flight, with everybody sleeping and the FSB coming on, where I have failed to wake up the grumpy guy in the window seat covered in 2 blankets and his coat to check if he had his belt fastened. So it's wrong and against the SOPs, shoot me.

The fact tha Yemenia admits that sometimes they are not 100% perfect is unusual, but shows a refreshing sense of reality. As oposed to the unrealistic management prose usually found in documents written by penpushers from corporate commercial departments who in most cases apear to have only the sketchiest idea of what actually happens in an airliner cabin.
which alleviates all the concerns about inconsiderate flight attendants who embarrass passengers by noisily delivering the extender and possible unavailable extenders.
Way I read it, they are not saying that their FAs are inconsiderate. They are empathising with the fact that obese people probably fear the potential embarrassment from potentially inconsiderate FAs.

Or are you saying that fat people are immune to apprehension and FAs are never inconsiderate? :confused:

PS: at the top of a PDF document there is a button that says 'select' which you use to select text bits. A bit further to the right there's the 'double sheet of paper' icon that copies the selected text. Took me 4 years to figure that out, maybe that's why I'm an FA rather than an engineer? ;)

[flybywire]

Yememia is one airline that I will not be flying with! :*

With those safety procedures (pretending that the seatbelt is fastened when it's not and not knowing the location of SEP equipment, as you have said) I won't be flying with them either! :rolleyes:

[Jimlad1]

I once saw someone flying who was so fat he was bound to overflow into the next seat.

If this occurs to me, am I within my rights to insist that one of us is moved to an alternate seat? I have strong H&S concerns about getting out if stuck next to someone who is extremely fat.

[flybywire]

JUUD, I hear what you say but their "buy your own seatbelt" is a misleading advice. I cannot buy my own seatbelt and use it on board! Extension seatbelts have to comply with strict regulations,they are part of the a/c SEP equipment and are all the same, the pax might buy the wrong thing, not strong enough etc etc I could go on forever.
Plus, not enough seat belts (whether extension or normal seat belt -it's not unusual for naughty ppl to steal them occasionally:mad: ) is a no-go. No seatbelt, no take off! A missing belt is just not acceptable!! I was in the position to have to offload two couples with their babies on a return sector from TLS as we were lacking 2 extension seatbelts (NOT our fault, that plane type always has the same number, it was the airline's who had accepted way too many infants for that flight!)

As for not disturbing people when they sleep and the seatbelt goes off, I am totally against it. I always "disturb" them as their safety is my job and I cannot foresee how the turbulence is going to affect us all. If the captain makes that decision for us we (including sleeping pax) should respect it. I do not agree with this practice but I accept that in some circumstances some FAs turn a blind eye.:ouch: However there's a substantial difference between doing it occasionally and not advertising it and actually writing it black on white on your own in-flight magazine!!!!

[gate4lounge]

I once saw someone flying who was so fat he was bound to overflow into the next seat.

If this occurs to me, am I within my rights to insist that one of us is moved to an alternate seat? I have strong H&S concerns about getting out if stuck next to someone who is extremely fat.


http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/fatso.htm

[vanderaj]

As a person of larger size (i.e. fat), I find most of this thread very offensive, particularly BOFH's post which although at first reading seems tongue in cheek, but using the "n-word" replacement test, it's actually extremely offensive. You can't just make this stuff up for a joke without believing in it as well.

Tips for fat passengers:

a) Check for MD80s, 757's and ancient 737's. They suck and you WILL need a seat belt extender if your BMI > 30. Newer 737's and all Airbus do not need such an item as they have adequate girth.

b) Be wary of going for the extra legroom on over the wing exit rows in old 737's as these have hard fixed sides to the seats and must be incredibly uncomfortable for all concerned except children, jockeys and very small women, all of whom are ineligible for that row.

c) If you are seated next to a steroid abuser, it's never going to work. One of you has to ask for a smaller row mate. My most uncomfortable flight ever was next to a buff gentleman who was easily a metre wide.

d) Newer 737's and Boeings and pretty much all Airbus have curved meal tables. These make it easier to eat the ever diminishing "meals" they serve.

e) I tend to just put up the armrest. One airline I travelled on (a Delta subsidiary?) just made everyone leave them up on the ancient 757 as not only was seat pitch extremely uncomfortable, seat width was a joke. I wish more airlines had this policy, particularly in cattle class.

f) Travel at non-peak times and aim for the aisle near the front, or seat 1A on a low cost carrier. This has the most space, will most likely not have a passenger next to you, allowing you to use the middle table.

I remember not even six years ago being able to use my Dell laptop (larger than my current Mac) on an Ansett 767 in cattle class. Somehow, over the last few years, it's become increasingly difficult to use laptops in planes, even my smallish Mac - except in business class. Seats have been getting smaller. In the same time, I've lost circa six kilograms, so if anything I'm smaller now too, but it's not helping.

For all you folks suggesting that I and the other fat SLF lose some weight, you should try it sometime. It's the hardest thing you'll ever have to do. Unlike alcohol or drugs, you can't stop eating, and for very frequent business travelers like me, I can't easily pick or choose my carrier, when I fly, the class I fly in, or where I can eat once I am at my destination. Eating on the road is one the major reasons I'm the shape I am in.

Saying that, if there's any other SLF wanting to start a weight loss program, me and the wife are losing weight to start a family. You're welcome to join us. We could start a thread, share exercise and food tips. That technique helped two of my friends lose a combined 75 kg.

Andrew

[slide blower]

come onto one of my flights!.
im a FA,thats FLIGHT ATTENDANT and FAT ADMIRER.
i always give extra care and service to the large female pax.
ive never meet anyone to big for my tastes.
SSBBWs rule!.

[radeng]

I'm rather fat, and on some Airbus' (shouldn't that be 'Airbi' for the plural?), I need a seat belt extender, and others I don't. So I actually measured one seat belt one day. At maximum extension, it was 36 inches long.........(this wasn't on BA, but a US loco)
As the size of people generally has increased (bigger bone structures than 100 years ago, ignoring fat) you'd thonk the airlines would have figured this out. What is needed now is a regulation on minimum seat width and a minimum length seatbelt.

[Al Fakhem]

Why did they not use images from Sana'a airport instead of FRA?

[BOFH]

vanderaj

but using the "n-word" replacement test
I really hope that you don't go around applying this 'test' to everything you hear to figure out whether you should be offended or not. Why fish for insults?

You also don't need to bring along your straw man of saying that losing weight is difficult - at what point was that refuted? Just how fat you, your wife, or anyone else wants to be - is absolutely none of my - or anyone else's - business. It is your right to eat as much as you want, and to have it any other way would be an abhorrent intrusion into your life. You seem sentient enough to realise that being fat brings its own problems, and I'm sure that you weigh (snigger) up the pros and cons of your lifestyle.

That is, until you make it my problem. When obese people intrude into what I have every right to expect is my space, their right to gorge themselves on cheap, greasy, mass-produced cheeseburgers and voraciously mopping up any dropped lardy goo from the cardboard box with salty french fries has to be called into question, don't you think?

BOFH

[manintheback]

e) I tend to just put up the armrest. One airline I travelled on (a Delta subsidiary?) just made everyone leave them up on the ancient 757 as not only was seat pitch extremely uncomfortable, seat width was a joke. I wish more airlines had this policy, particularly in cattle class.

Why do you believe you have the right to reduce another passengers comfort by doing this and also the real aim of allowing you to use up part of their seat for which they have paid for their own use - not yours.

[kelper]

I once saw someone flying who was so fat he was bound to overflow into the next seat.

If this occurs to me, am I within my rights to insist that one of us is moved to an alternate seat? I have strong H&S concerns about getting out if stuck next to someone who is extremely fat.

I have spent two back-to-back eight hour flights beside a 22 stone (140kg) gentleman whose thighs and girth spilled under and over the armrest thereby reducing my space considerably. Combined with his incessant farting and sweating the flight was intolerable.
Fatties should pay for two seats or walk!!!!!:)

[WHBM]

Well the basic Boeing standard jet fuselage (707/727/737/757) has been exactly the same width, and always fitted out for 6-across, for the last 50 years since it was introduced. And the more recent Airbus fuselage is even wider. So it is difficult to blame this on aircraft design changes as a number above do.

Seat pitch is another matter but that impacts on tall/long legs, not on fatness.

Surely the cure to oversize pax impinging on other pax's seatspace is to put all the largest pax together in the same row where they can buffer up against each other. Then no one can complain. For weight and balance reasons this row will have to be towards the CofG.

[vanderaj]

(on putting the armrest up) Why do you believe you have the right to reduce another passengers comfort by doing this and also the real aim of allowing you to use up part of their seat for which they have paid for their own use - not yours.

I never do it when I am sitting next to a poor sod stuck in the middle seat. Not because I will flow into their space -- which I don't - my weight is all up front, not side to side.

I want "my" room as much as they want "their" room. I don't want their wallet, iPod or keys sticking into me just as they don't want my legs splaying out to their natural pose (hint, ladies - men don't sit with their legs together). But when there's no one there, why not be comfortable?

The economy seat width is 17-18" on most planes (17" on old 737's, 18" on modern A320's and 777's). Look at your trousers. Anyone wearing size 34 trousers or less can sit more or less comfortably in a 17" width seat.

Everyone else cannot - the seat and body will intersect. Even my relatively short (175 cm) fitness freak brother wears size 34 trousers. He has a BMI in the low 20's (at the lower end of the supposedly "healthy" weight range).

The median BMI of US adults is 27, which means most folks are somewhat overweight and thus do not fit seats comfortably. In my experience of twice weekly or more frequent flights, no one besides young kids and small women with no hips can sit within seat bounds. The seats are simply too narrow for modern, healthy humans, let alone fat dudes like myself.

Andrew

[vanderaj]

vanderaj
I really hope that you don't go around applying this 'test' to everything you hear to figure out whether you should be offended or not. Why fish for insults?

I will reverse it. Why do you pick on the only class of folk left who have no legal protection, the fat? When I eat in public, many folks give me distasteful looks, as if it's the fifth all you can eat banquet I've had that day. It's abhorrent that shallow folks are allowed to pick on us because of our body shape, just that it's abhorrent that some folks discriminate on the basis of skin color, religion (or the lack thereof), gender or sexuality. But being fat, you are well within your God given rights to pick on us as we have no come back.

I'm losing weight to have a family and be around when they grow up. I know the impact of being the weight I am. I don't need your (or anyone else's) toxic negativity to understand how my metabolism and poor choices over the 16 years it's taken me to gain 45 kg of unnecessary weight.

That is, until you make it my problem. When obese people intrude into what I have every right to expect is my space, their right to gorge themselves on cheap, greasy, mass-produced cheeseburgers and voraciously mopping up any dropped lardy goo from the cardboard box with salty french fries has to be called into question, don't you think?
BOFH

Did I mention the bit where when I eat, folks plainly show on their faces that they're thinking "fatty must have had five meals today already. Disgusting!" At least they don't say it out loud in front of me. On the other hand, you just put it on this forum for all to read showing the world just what an awful person you really are.

No matter how much you might think we all eat lardy goo from the bottom of cardboard boxes and eat the little bits of cheese stuck to the cheeseburger wrappers, it's simply not the case. For me, my weight gain is the result of eating one or two bad things *per week*. I'm sure everyone here has had one more taco than truly necessary. Gaining weight just requires a few bad choices every week, and you'll be like me.

Getting it off again requires more than just making a few good choices every week. It requires every meal, every snack and every drink to be the best choice (or at least not too bad). It requires sincere effort at the gym and to walk as much as possible every day. It requires not being given incredibly bad advice (e.g. my first failed diet, one of many, Weight Watchers used to be a high GI, constrictive diet suitable only for women. They don't do that any more, but it HURT me. I gained nearly half my excess weight after giving up at WW as it's simply the wrong advice). It requires support from friends and family, and other folks willing to put in the hard yards.

Losing weight does not require toxic oafish boors. Keep your opinions to yourself if you have nothing positive to add.

Andrew

[BOFH]

vanderaj
Keep your opinions to yourself if you have nothing positive to add.
It is your right to eat as much as you want, and to have it any other way would be an abhorrent intrusion into your life. You seem sentient enough

Just how positive do you want me to get? Did it escape your attention that your right to do what you want was upheld by me? In what way, shape or form must I keep my opinions to myself if I am not agreeing with you? Well, that'd make for interesting discussions, wouldn't it?

Poster1: I think <insert postulate>
Poster2: Me too
Poster3: You're both right

Why else did you weigh (heh) in here in the first place, other than to make your case? Isn't anyone else allowed a turn?

only class of folk left who have no legal protection Why do you feel you so weak that you need legal protection? What misfortune have you borne, short of shying away from the salad bar? All you have come up with, apropos blaming yourself, is 'bad choices'. The rest is metabolism this, Weight Watchers that, eating on the road, support from your family, 'other folks' (sic) willing to put in the hard yards. Why are you not mature enough to accept that it was you - not me, not WW, not George Z Bush - who did this to you?

I reiterate; I do not have a problem with the way you choose to live. I am not 'picking on' you for being fat. I think that it's a very positive thing that you're endeavouring to reduce your weight. However, I am remonstrating with you for your lack of consideration to others when flying and your fumbling efforts at justifying your position when doing so.

Let's face it, you're not exactly getting onto the debating team with:
no one besides young kids and small women with no hips can sit within seat bounds
As WHBM pointed out, we normals are not shrinking the aircraft on you behind your back. Promise.
I don't want their wallet, iPod or keys sticking into me
Nice straw man, what's his name? If a fellow passenger is rude enough to have something extraneous sticking into you, you simply tell him to remove it. If it's an endogenous roll of lard, that's a little more difficult - unless you can truss him up like a turkey with string.

The only thing keeping this thread vaguely on topic is that the average air traveller's worst fears are being confirmed. There are lipid-rich people who feel no shame at making our next flight a nightmare of contortion. And it's all our fault.

BOFH

[eastern wiseguy]

What a dreadful attitude......I am a large guy..I have no trouble remaining within the confines of my seat..I do not smell....I do not sweat...and I am disgusted by the attitudes shown on this board. If a thread were started on Jews/Blacks/Gays/disabled and attitudes like those demonstrated here were prevalent the moderator would close it down ...why are those of us who are not within the "normal" range treated with such utter contempt. I am disgusted at the way this thread has been allowed to progress....NAZI's the bloody lot of you.

[Bangkokeasy]

I too find it extremely difficult to conduct discussion on this topic without either humour or derogatory comments and getting a few people's back's up in the process. Nevertheless, it is a very important subject and one that has affected all of us at one time or another.

As WHBM rightly points out, the standard Boeing fuselage has not changed in 50 years, while clearly, rightly or wrongly, the average human has. It is most obvious in the US, Africa and Europe, but even here in Asia, the average person is quickly getting noticeably larger. Ten years ago, at 178cm, I could see clear over the heads of a crowd in Bangkok. Now it is common to find Thais and other Asians of similar and larger size than me, and that includes their girth. Within the next Asian generation (another 10 years or so), changing diets and lifestyles will see Asia join the US, Europe and Africa in the size stakes and with it, have the same issues with airline seats.

It is time we gave this problem the attention it needs.

Bangkokeasy (BMI 28.4)

(Edited to correct BMI)

[WilliamOK]

On the eating in public, I don't enjoy it either, though ofr opposite reasons. I'm sick of getting the looks and the comments along the lines of "why does he bother, he'll only throw it up" (truly a rather rude older lady said this to me once..) or getting that ' 'oh look, that kid obvously has an eating disorder.." crap as well.

And I also think that airline seats suck, as I have fairly broad shoulders, so even though i have a 32 size waist and can fit my lower part into the seat, it's still damn uncomfortable if you are sitting next to someone else. The seats do need to get bigger, as the average person is getting taller and bigger, not so much in fattiness but in general mass, if that makes sense.

[lostpianoplayer]

BOFH, your logic is impeccable, but you and your co-believers here really are oafish toxic boors. I'm impressed that you've managed to embarrass yourself so thoroughly. I wonder if you would have the balls to say any of this stuff if it wasn't an anonymous forum. And no, I'm not obese - I just think that there's a place for compassion in this world; a place that strict logic may not always lead you.

[manintheback]

And I also think that airline seats suck, as I have fairly broad shoulders, so even though i have a 32 size waist and can fit my lower part into the seat, it's still damn uncomfortable if you are sitting next to someone else. The seats do need to get bigger, as the average person is getting taller and bigger, not so much in fattiness but in general mass, if that makes sense.

The arguments for 'more space' translating to larger seats for larger people are absurd. An aircraft has a fixed amount of cabin space.

Larger seats with more space ALREADY EXIST. They are the premium seats. (PE, Club and First)

Fewer seats at the back mean more expense - for everyone. Why do you expect those who dont require the space to subsidise those who do?.

Is legislation to be enacted to force the so called 'lo-cost' airlines to become more expensive by having fewer seats to suit the needs of a minority (or will you promise never to fly a lo cost airline)?

If you need more space - pay for it. If you cant fit into the space you've paid for, then you need more space and that costs.

[TightSlot]

It's a little depressing how this thread has evolved from a useful start into trench warfare.

There is clearly an issue here that would benefit from discussion: That issue relates to passengers of size within an aviation context.

May I encourage you, no matter where you stand on this, to step back for a moment, and then post in as considered and sensitive manner as you can. I don't like closing threads, but if this degenerates into stone throwing, it may prove necessary.

Now over to you...

[lostpianoplayer]

Mr Moderator,
Thank you for stepping in. I apologise if my comments were seen as "stone-throwing" - seemed more like blitzkrieg than trench warfare to me, with the skinny meanies on the rampage. But I guess those on the end of all that "fat people smell, eat too many chips, rolls of lard" nonsense can do without my help, and the superfluous offensiveness of their attackers' approach is self evident. I'm back off to the tech log, and other interesing forums, with a cup of tea and a whole packet of chocolate biscuits. I intend to eat every one :)

[vanderaj]

Tightslot - thank you!

I am 180 cm tall, apparently the average height of an Australian male. However, the kids coming up behind me (only 10 years younger, mind) are already head and shoulders taller than me, and I'd say once my parents' generation kick the bucket, I will be considered short.

The loco airlines will have a problem in less than 10 years. These taller passengers cannot fit in the standard loco seat pitch today. Soon enough they will form a core part of the airline business regardless of how much the locos might wish otherwise. Locos do not have a premium economy (which is the class I am taking to the USA next week for my ample girth and comfort) let alone J or C class seats. In Australia, Jet* have taken over from Qantas on most holiday and regional destinations, such as Townsville and Newcastle, and VB (the only other major airline) is a loco too. So us fat and taller folks have *nowhere* to go.

Airlines like Pacific Airlines have larger customers as the norm - they have larger seats. Sooner or later, locos will have to do the same or face declining market share. For example, I will not be traveling South West now that I know that they will charge me randomly for a second seat, whether I need one or not. As I travel frequently (far more frequently than I actually like), SW have cut their own throat. Which is good news for the South West shareholders!

Andrew

[WHBM]

Well I am 6'0" and have done several business trips in Y London to Australia and did not find a problem.

A former girlfriend :uhoh: 5'3" and skinny did LAX to London on a BA 747 and came out whining about "sardine class" and other such comments. I think it is very much an attitude issue.

[manintheback]

Vanderaj - can you not see the contradiction of your own argument.

You fly lo-cost but want bigger seats and more comfort. How are the economics supposed to work?

[vanderaj]

Vanderaj - can you not see the contradiction of your own argument.
You fly lo-cost but want bigger seats and more comfort. How are the economics supposed to work?

I do not contradict myself. I am flying (by my choice) premium economy next week from YMML to LAX. I would fly premium economy or J class on the next leg to IAD if the code share carrier had such seats. 10 years ago the code share carrier would have had at least J class seats on the same exact flight. Unfortunately, it's single class and probably serviced by an old dilapidated plane and over-stressed / overworked flight attendants who will throw us fake peanuts and pour 40-50 mls of fake coke into a plastic cup containing mostly ice.

The modern airline industry is irreversibly changing from flag carriers to low cost airlines, and in the process removing choice from those like myself who can afford to pay for the room they need.

In Australia, despite my heavy patronage (irony, eh?), Qantas (on which I am a Gold FF and dang near Platinum) has withdrawn their two class domestic flights basically everywhere in favor of CityFlyer and Jet*, their loco arm.

So no matter how much I am willing to pay, I and many others simply cannot buy the room we need. I don't need seat pitch much beyond 30" between seats as I'm not that tall, but on some airlines, I don't even get that now. And cos I carry all my weight forward, it's tricky for me to get the tray down or use a laptop. I acknowledge that I'm fat, so I want the extra pitch to be comfortable doing things like everyone else.

10 years from now, folks taller than me will simply always associate airflight with extreme discomfort. I hope to be skinny by then, but the problem remains: humans are changing, and the seats have not. In many cases, things are worse in the name of economical cheap flights. I'm not against cheap flights as businesses deserve to make a reasonable profit, but I am against unreasonable seat sizes for the average human, and the lack of choice of wider / more seat pitch for those like me who are willing to pay that bit more for my comfort and that of other folks.

Andrew

[Wyler]

I flew back Business from Malaysia a few years ago. As passengers were still boarding a very large lady came through into Club Class followed by two harased CC. She pointed to some empty seats and started demanding that she be given one of them. Basically, she stated that she was too fat for an economy seat, especially as it was a 14 hour flight to London. Therefore, she announced, it was the Airlines responsibility to upgrade her. Luckily, they refused.
I was annoyed that this rather nasty individual thought it her God given right to be treated as a special case due to her size. She purchased an economy ticket and that is where she should sit. She tried to make it the airlines problem and even tried to intimidate the CC with threats of 'letters to management'. Her size is her business and her responsibility.
I get annoyed when I see morbidly obese people shoe horning themselves into seats, especially ones near me because of the safety implications in an Emergency.
I for one, hope we do not address this problem by giving them the legal right to sue if we dare to mention their excess girth and the problems it causes.

[eastern wiseguy]

I get annoyed when I see morbidly obese people shoe horning themselves into seats

seat size is seat size....try asking for premium economy when Easy or Ryan are your only choice..

[10secondsurvey]

I have to say that if I ever was on a flight, and the pax next to me wanted to raise the armrest as they were too big for the seat, I would immediately seek to move seats, or get off the plane. There are two reasons for this; Firstly I want to be able to get out of my row of seats in an emergency, and secondly, I paid for a whole seat, not a part of a seat.

I believe Southwest has a useful policy regarding this whereby larger people can purchase two adjacent seats. This is a good short term solution to a difficult problem, as it avoids any bad feeling with other pax, and means the person of larger girth does not find themselves in a 'no-win' situation with other pax. Maybe the likes of Ryanair or Ezy and other airlines need to wise up to this.

Long term, the airlines do need to address this issue, as people are just getting bigger. Fact.


Just out of curiosity (as I'll be flying in a middle seat on Jet blue shortly on a long flight), can someoen tell me, how much wider the A320 cabin is over say a 737 400 etc..

[Final 3 Greens]

Ryanair do allow pax to buy more than one seat for themselves, all you have to do is speak with their call centre.

I know this, because I have done it on a +3 hour sector, to get enough space to use a laptop.

The nice aspect of the Southwest scheme is that the extra ticket is refunded if there is a spare seat.

Now one can argue that the large person is getting a better deal than the other pax, but personally I don't begrudge them that - life is tough enough when you are oversized.

[WHBM]

Just out of curiosity (as I'll be flying in a middle seat on Jet blue shortly on a long flight), can someoen tell me, how much wider the A320 cabin is over say a 737 400 etc..
6" greater fuselage width over the standard Boeing fuselage. Generally translated into 1" extra seat width per seat in the standard 6-across layout. However not all airlines fit out their cabins with such seats. Northwest for example use the same seats in their A320s as in their 757s, just getting a 6" wider aisle as a result. I believe Jet Blue however fit the wider seats.

[Getoutofmygalley]

easyJet also allow obese pax to purchase more than 1 seat if they are too wide for 1 seat. I had an obese man and woman on recently (the woman was I believe the term would be morbidly obese) and she took up virtually the whole of the 2 seats she had purchased.

They were pre-boarded so that they could easily get a row for themselves and were very greatful with the way that we looked after them.

Unfortunately though they didn't do themselves any health favours because when we brought the trolley through the cabin, they both had a chocolate muffin with their hot drinks and had 4 sugars each in their hot drinks.

Still, they were very nice and polite, much nicer than some of the other pax on that flight! :)

[Pollyana]

As the average-sized wife of a large Australian, can I ask people for a bit of understanding - partly for those who travel with large pax! My hubby is a large guy because he is big-built, and because he has trained for sport, leading to him being 6'2" and with the build of an American footballer. AS all my family are in the UK, he subjects himself to the agony of squeezing into airline seats so that he can visit them. If we could afford to pay for an extra seat all the way to the UK and back, then I would, but :eek:
He manages to eat by putting his meal on my table as he can't lower his own, and I always sit in the middle seat (which I personally hate) so that he doesn't impinge on anyone else's space. However by the end of the flight its me, not him, that feels like kak - I can't eat, because only one tray fits on the table, and to ask to be fed early would cause him embarrassment. I can't have anything in the seatpockets because he puts one leg acriss and under the seat in front of me, and I can't actually move, because I try so hard not to move across and thus annoy the pax on the other side, whilst allowing hubby to expand into my own seat space.
I adore long haul flights when I go alone, but with him its pure hard hungry work.

BTW - its not sypmathy I'm after, if it sounds like I'm whining, its just understanding - for both of us.

[flybywire]

I just wanted to add something as I have seen some misleading information many pages ago.:hmm:

I do not know what happens all around the world, but for many european carriers, and definitely for the CAA, any passenger who requires the use of an extension seatbelt cannot occupy any emeregncy exit seats.

So keep it in mind if you were thinking of booking one of those "old 737s" overwing emergency exits with the extra legroom, you might be asked to move seats. Not because the crew do not like overweight people, but because it's a set procedure that we have to follow.

In BA, if you're flying on one of our short-haul planes, you'll notice that some seats in Y are actually almost the same as the C seats. Try to aim for one of those (window or aisle) when you check in, however if you tend to go a bit "overboard" then it's better to have a seat at the back, where you can lift up the armrest. Club seats do not have this facility. And the Club middle seats used in Y configuration can be a good 2-3 cms smaller than the window/aisle ones, so be careful. I was unlucky enough to get one of those a few days ago: I couldn't complain as I was on stand-by and couldn't move as the plane was full. I used to fit in them nicely however now I am 6 months pregnant and as you can imagine it was the most uncomfortable trip I've ever had.

Hope this helps.

FBW

[SLF3b]

I think the answer is 6" - this may be 1" per seat or a wider aisle. Does not sound a lot, but two consecutive sectors in economy on a 747 (10 abreast) and a 777 (6" narrower but 9 abreast) will convince you it is.

The bus generally has wider seats than the equivalent Boeing: try the window seat on a 737 compared to an A320 to really appreciate the difference.

[Eboy]

I believe Southwest has a useful policy regarding this whereby larger people can purchase two adjacent seats.

Agreed. Long term, I think the industry should develop more flexible seating configurations and also charge by weight.

[RedCairo]

I think this is an important subject. It's difficult to address because of the severity of prejudice regarding obesity in today's world but it's going to have to be addressed at some point.

I used to travel a great deal for business (I was ordinary sized). I dreaded sitting next to someone huge. Oddly, I didn't mind "fat people" so much as I minded "muscular people" because the fat people were just squishy--not super comfortable but not miserable for me unless they were truly huge--while the muscular people were very UNcomfortable to be squished up against. I'd take a woman with a big butt long before a man with broad shoulders, given a choice.

Then for a couple years I worked long hours at a different job, commuted 4-5 hours a day on the worst highway in L.A., went to school at night, and ate just once a day, mega carbs at del taco before falling into bed at 1-2am and getting up at 6 to start it again. I was stressed out, sleep deprived, almost totally sedentary, and despite only eating once a day, apparently flipped some insulin trigger switch in myself, since two years later I was over 200 lbs heavier.

(A fascinating sociology experiment in how people's reactions to you change depending on what you look like, but one that would have been more fun had the subject not been me.)

The next time I had to fly I was aghast at how horrible it was. Fortunately the flight had empty seats so I asked the FA if I could sit somewhere that I wouldn't make the person next to me miserable and she agreed. For my next several business trips (this was probably 15 years ago) I went to the ticket counter ahead, explained my dilemma to the clerk, asked if there was some way to be assigned next to an empty seat, and explained that my request was on behalf of the poor soul next to me, not myself. They were always very willing. I had a couple of personal trips and I flew first class. The seats were still too small--but not misery-level.

For awhile I didn't travel and into the news came the stories of some airlines asking passengers to buy a second ticket. Although it turned out this was not an officially implemented, consistent standard for all airlines, I actually thought it had been made so.

So I mostly quit flying, because I could not afford to pay $1500 for a round trip ticket everyone else pays $750 for.

However, I sometimes have still had to fly. I buy two tickets for adjoining seats in advance, I minimize my luggage, I make a point to not eat or drink so I don't need the restroom, and in general I don't think I have inconvenienced anybody else.

Last year my corporate office required we all fly in for a meeting and of course the company paid. Except it cost me nearly $800 because of course they would only pay for one ticket (I asked). Risking losing my job because my butt was too big (when reducing this is a vastly more metabolically complicated process than thin people with zero proper education on the subject imagine) was really pretty upsetting. I was later offered another job in my company by a manager who liked my work, that I had to turn down, because it requires air travel.

Now, there are three points that I think are relevant from the perspective of an oversized passenger and that would help the airlines themselves to consider, that I seldom see addressed in conversations like these.

1. I am more than willing -- in fact I find this logical and reasonable -- to pay more money for more seat space. Space and weight are limited on airplanes so it makes perfect sense that passengers pay for what they are using. Just like I pay more for quality products than other people do for cheaper ones, it's a quality-of-life issue, and if I had the money, I'd pay for a larger space even were I *not* oversized. The problems with my simply doing this are these:

A. I buy two plane tickets. The seats curve up at the sides slightly with a hard edge. Not all the arms go fully 'behind' the level of the chairs. This depends on the airline and the airplane; you'd have to weigh a lot and be wide and try each out to understand, as it was not obvious to me visually until I actually sat in them for awhile. While sitting in my two seats, with my high weight, the pressure of the place where the seats adjoin in my bottom and in my back and the funky way I try to sit to mitigate the pain--yes, actual *physical pain* that gets worse with each passing minute--torques my back and results, after about 3-4 hours, in my being darn near crippled; I can barely walk to get out of the plane by the time I stand up, and my back hurts enough to need actual medication. This kind of seating would be horrible for a 120lbs person; imagine what it's like for someone 2,3,4 times that size-- unimaginable at the larger end of the scale.

Now I am not complaining that I had to buy two seats, but I certainly AM complaining that I paid $800 for a $400 travel route and was as a result put in pain, miserable and half-crippled by it. If I am going to pay literally TWICE the amount of everybody else, I should damn well at least expect to be able to sit there for 4 hours without physical injury. The airline may be providing me what they consider twice the space, but they are *not* providing me what *I* consider "twice the value". It's the equivalent of someone telling a tall male passenger, "Ok, we'll charge you 2x the amount but give you twice the leg room--oh, well, except in exchange for that, you have to scrunch over because the ceiling-height is where your shoulders are. You have no choice in this--if you want to fly, this is how it has to be."

B. I believe the entire "mental model" of how airplanes are set up seat-wise is unworkable for the world and the way things are going. It's old fashioned, for a world unlike what we live in now. It's not as financially smart (for the airline) as an alternative, either.

I can envision something slightly akin to church pews (but more comfortable) with a small opening in the back padding for seat belts and a skinny but firm 'divider' (full divider that went down into/below the seat level and up to arm level) about every 4" all the way across the plane. Passengers would basically buy "units". Children and skinny people might buy a 12 or 16" seat (3 or 4 units); larger people -- whether via muscle or fat -- might end up buying however many units were appropriate for their size.

The dividers would ensure that even were someone a bit too large, the person next to them would be far better insulated from the effect (at least at the seat level; not much you can do about shoulders. Well you *could* make optional the dividers to go all the way to the ceiling--just 'slide out' from a slot in each 4" spaced area-- but that might make some people claustrophic). I believe that airlines could probably make *more* money using this approach, fitting more people into the same amount of overall physical space. This would give every person the ability to buy what they needed, without it simply having to be one ticket or two, and this would appropriately charge people based on their actual required-space rather than on simply 1 vs 2 seats of space.

2. The other biggest problem is that there is no "scale" for this. The difference in cost today between coach vs. first class is staggering, and on most the flights I've had cause to consider, there is nothing in between. Now, while my avoiding flying altogether does protect thinner passengers from the horror of my size, it did not make the airline ANY money, and that's a real waste of potential for them, it is destructive to the overall industry, and it is more than inconvenient, in the modern world, for a big percentage of the population. While thin people rightfully complain they should not have to pay for larger-sized issues, on the other hand, basically over 50% of the population is at best highly uncomfortable in airline seats, and more all the time, and that's a huge chunk of the customer base. So, the fewer fat people who pay money to fly, the less profit the airline industry makes and in the end, the more tickets are going to cost for all as a result.

If the airlines had a seating system more like what I described above, people would not be faced with the choice of either being utterly miserable, or not flying because first class or two seats are way too expensive. For another 50 bucks, or 100 bucks, or whatever, they could upgrade another unit or 2 and be fine. It would create a sliding scale of cost for the consumer.

3. The last point is a legal and political issue. The travel industries in the USA (excepting for the most part trains) receive a lot of subsidy money from the US government. Basically, they "serve the national interest and all the people" and that is why. Now consider that growing obesity statistic, plus the issue of people who are simply large genetically or via muscle. We are talking about (now or soon) *more than half the population base* being unwilling or unable to fly--or to fly without actual physical risk of injury from anything from blood clots to back problems resulting from the space issues in the air--if I am a taxpayer, why is appropriate that the government give money to an industry as a "nationwide service" that in fact serves half the population, with a specific exclusion? You cannot even have your own private restaurant without having wheelchair access and a bathroom fit for the disabled in many states, and that's for a totally optional (not needed for practical or business reasons in the modern world), privately owned, small situation; so why should a nationally, federally-subsidized industry be able to enforce a situation that prevents bathrooms for probably 25%+ of the population due to size and that either puts in misery and physical danger or literally excludes-entirely via price half the population?

Perhaps feel the whole subsidy issue for airlines should be revisited with a hard eye to what is truly serving the national interests, and that if airlines are going to get all that money they should be expected to accomodate at least the same standards other businesses do. Now, if airlines were making a genuine effort to address this problem in some practical way -- like the alternative seating approach I mentioned -- it would not seem like that big an issue; clearly they understood, pricing and 'fitting' was on a sliding scale, etc. But the airlines just continue to provide seating and bathrooms that best fit teenage asians, for an entire nation(s) of people who only rarely fit that description, it physically endangers some people and it categorically excludes a growing larger % of the American public from even having access to that transportation.


So far, all the efforts to address this situation have come from two places:
1 - thin passengers in misery because of fat neighboring passengers; or
2 - fat or simply large-size passengers either in general misery, actual physical pain, or who are penalized *hugely* for what ought to be a surcharge not a double-charge, or who simply cease to fly AT ALL.

I have not seen any real effort on the part of the airlines to address the problem at all. Apparently they are using the "don't ask, don't tell" approach to business management.

I'm willing to bet that using the 'padded bench' and 'units' approach I described above, airlines could actually pay *less* for the seating inside planes, could actually fit *more* people and make *more* money both per-flight, could actually get *more* customers who'd be less miserable or less priced-out than current approaches ensure, and serve a much greater portion of the population in a way that made everybody happier.

Best,
PJ

[Dushan]

when reducing this is a vastly more metabolically complicated process than thin people with zero proper education on the subject imagine


As someone who has been on both sides of the spectrum, I can assure that it actually is very simple. It seems that you are spending an enormous amount of energy, thought, and money to solve a problem that esentially starts and stops with you.

[FWOF]

I too am on the curvier side, although I haven't had to ever ask for extenders etc. What I do find is that some aircraft seatbelts have the end you clip the belt into so short and almost under the armrest, so that when I clip up, the mechanism is now under the armrest, and I worry that in an emergency I'd take a few seconds longer than I need to get it undone.

It's not just us bigguns that are seat hogs. I've lost count of the amount of times I've had the man/woman sitting next to me elbows in my ribs, or even people sitting somewhat sideways with legs crossed and therefore feet into my footwell. Mostly though I've had more often than not, men beside and behind me oggling at what being squeezed into a seat does to ones cleavage! LOL!!

I concur that this could and should be a helpful thread, without having to resort to what I can only describe as appalling abuse from keyboard warriors. Well done Mr Moderator :ok:

[UniFoxOs]

Both self and Mrs UFO are of the build politely described by prooners as "salad dodgers". My biggest problem is my rather wide (weight-lifter's) shoulders, the result of hauling myself around for 50 years by the arms. While I can fit into even the older 737 seats in terms of bum and waist width, there ain't much elbow room. For this reason I have often wondered about buying an extra seat so that the two of us can have a row of three. Nice to see that Ryanair offer this, and ISTR seeing something similar offerred by TOM.

For those of you who have done so (F3G?) I have two questions. First how do you ensure you actually get the extra seat next to yourself on a loco with no seat allocation? And secondly how much does it cost? Logically it should only cost the advertised seat price (for example GBP 1.99 on some locos), as the empty seat should not incur any "airport charges" (no pax to use the toilets in the airport, be security-checked etc.) and no fuel surcharge as there is no weight to carry. In fact you could make out a good case for a "fuel discount" as the extra seat will be using no fuel compared to a full one.
But I bet you still pay the full pax price for the seat??

UFO