SVFR and IFR at night

[White Hart]

You are an A109 arriving at EGLL in daylight, then your handling agent books you out to depart two hours after sunset. Your intention is to route H9 north to leave the zone and route direct to Sheffield Hospital.

Question - would you, as the pilot, consider requesting the filing of a flight plan of any sort with Heathrow FBU (or anybody else, for that matter) before departure? And if not, why not?

[puntosaurus]

Well, since you're asking a legalistic question the legalistic answer is that you must file a flight plan, UK AIP ENR 1.10 1.4.2 (a) refers.

However like all lawyers' answers that's not particularly useful, so I'm guessing that your question is "Are you OBLIGED to file a FULL CA48 flight plan."

There may be more but here's at least one scenario where as far as I can tell you are not OBLIGED to file a full CA48 flight plan.

You have no paying passengers (ie not public transport)
You are offered an SVFR transit out of the heathrow zone before taking off
You are willing to route round all controlled airspace en route (in case you're not offered SVFR)
You are happy for en-route services and your destination aerodrome to have no prior knowledge of you
Whether it would be sensible to do this of course is another matter.

[helopat]

Just to weigh in...in your initial title, you write SVFR or IFR...not sure what the european rules on filing a flight plan are, but here in Australia SVFR (special VFR?) is a day only option...no can do at night.

HeloPat

[White Hart]

The 'no VFR at night' issue is the part which is causing a mini-controversy. The FBU at EGLL has instructions not to accept any VFR flightplans for departure at night. So, when a heli books out, as given in the example, the SVFR clearance only applies as far as the control zone boundary. But what about the rest of the journey?

As the instruction is from our FBU Manager; is on NATS headed paper, and is stuck firmly to the noticeboard where I/we can all see (and adhere to) it, then I consider it 'illegal' for a helicopter to book out at night to anywhere outside of the control zone without filing a SVFR/IFR flightplan for the entire journey, unless there is a Rule in the ANO or other document which states that there is no need to file an IFR flightplan for a heli night flight of this sort outside of CAS.

The given scenario occurred very recently, and a call to Thames/SVFR prompted the response that 'once its out of our zone, we're not interested'. In the event of an accident, would the Board of Enquiry take the same view?

It's now unclear as to whether we in the FBU should advise pilots to file at night, or whether we should insist that they do. I suppose a verbal 'we'll airfile once we're on our way' would be sufficient, as the call is recorded. If they don't, then at least the liability is removed from the FBU, and placed squarely on the pilot's shoulders.

This 'no-file at night' procedure has been going on at Heathrow for many years, but I've never been personally happy with it. Suffice it to say, after reading the earlier thread/debate on VFR/IFR at night, and after the discussion in the VCR recently, I now feel uncomfortable enough to have to raise the issue at Tech Comm level for a bit of 'legal' clarification.

[puntosaurus]

Well my reading of the Rules of the Air Regs (1996) is fairly unambiguous.

Section VI article 28 (2) makes it clear that IFR flight OUTSIDE CAS only requires compliance with articles 29 (Minimum Height), and 30 (Quadrantal Rule). Article 31 (Flightplans) only relates to IFR flights within CAS.

Since you're leaving SVFR there is no obligation for a full flight plan (UK AIP ENR 1.2.2.4), and when your SVFR service terminates at the zone boundary, then as Thames says you are well and truly on your own, outside CAS IFR with no radar service unless someone takes pity on you.

If you then have a problem, and the insurance company or other interested party can make the case that your lack of ATC liaison exacerbated the situation, then you are well and truly up a small smelly river without any means of propulsion.

Hence my view that legally you can do it, but practically you'd be nuts to do so. In practice though, since you control movements at LHR you can make whatever local rules you like until challenged. By posting a notice, that is exactly what your Manager has done - good for him (or her) !

[ShyTorque]

If Heathrow give you an SVFR departure clearance to leave the CTR then you are fine. If they require you to take a runway slot they can still clear you SVFR. In UK it is not mandatory to file a written flight plan either for SVFR, or for IFR flight in class G airspace. Any further controlled airspace en route can be crossed under Special VFR or IFR subject to ATC clearance via R/T.

Not sure why it shouldn't be considered sensible to fly at night without a full written flight plan. Filling in a form to any agency in UK doesn't actually make a flight any safer. Provided the pilot maintains contact with ATC en route, he has a more relevant and immediate flight following service than a written flightplan offers.

It should be borne in mind that not all aircraft operate from airports or at a place where there are any facilities to submit a flight plan. A requirement to submit a written flight plan would cause operational difficulties to the corporate helicopter industry.

Example: A helicopter pilot is waiting past midnight at a helipad or a private landing site for his customers. He has not been to an airfield or home all week. How does he:
A) Submit the written flight plan in the first instance?
B) Pass on any written amendments?

Anyone who answers "Through his Ops department", take one pace backwards.....Anyone answering "through his handling agent" take two paces!

[puntosaurus]

Well whenever I've asked for a radar service outside CAS I've almost always bounced unless I've filed IFR.That's a good reason on it's own.

[ShyTorque]

Puntosaurus my dear chap, you must be born unlucky......

Heading north on the way from a south coast airfield a couple of nights ago to a private helipad I got RIS in Class G airspace from Farnborough, Brize, Coventry, East Midlands and DoncaSheFinningley.

Last night on the way from Battersea it was Northolt, Luton, East Mids with a couple of short gaps for a FIS from Cranfield and Sywell as it was more relevant to speak to them directly.

Nothing unusual about this, I've never filed a written flight plan for this type of flight in UK and I've been doing this for some long time now. How do you think most heli folk operate at night?

[AlanM]

.....and a call to Thames/SVFR prompted the response that 'once its out of our zone, we're not interested'.

That would be the same response even if you were IFR.

What happens en route is another call.... but we don't even see yr fltplan in LTCC if you have filed one. Luton et al will also not see it.

We generally do try and give radar derived traffic info to you - but if Luton are busy and unable to take a handover then a frecall is the best option, as you need to start planningthat part of the flight.

[whatsarunway]

In the uk is it legal to depart from a private site at night (ifr or vfr) assuming the pilot is ifr rated night rated and on a private flight in an ifr twin?


Would really love an answer to this!

thanx

[Curtis E Carr]

In the uk is it legal to depart from a private site at night (ifr or vfr) assuming the pilot is ifr rated night rated and on a private flight in an ifr twin?
Would really love an answer to this!
thanx

1. Rule 22 does not provide for VFR at night. As has been stated above, you are IFR outside controlled airspace, and IFR or SVFR within controlled airspace.

2. What do you mean by "IFR night rated"? You must have either an IR or a night rating/qualification.

3. For private category, you do not necessarily need a twin-engined helicopter. Neither do you need an IFR helicopter though there is a minimum amount of equipment required for flight at night (see ANO Schedule 4).

Subject to the above, perfectly legal.

[puntosaurus]

.... but we don't even see yr fltplan in LTCC if you have filed one. Luton et al will also not see it.
So if the flight plan doesn't do anything for you en route, is it just to notify the dep, dest, and alts in order that SAR can be activated if you don't arrive ?

[AlanM]

Pretty much so mate. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news....

ShyT and the rest of the boys almost always get what they want, and some Radar derived traffic Information before the "out of the zone, we're not interested" kicks in. (especially if getting close!) :)

Filing a FPL generally meets one need (the ANO!) - not the pilot or ATCO.

[ShyTorque]

If you're lucky, they might notice and look for you if you don't turn up. Or they might not. BTW, if you do file a flight plan at night, do you always ensure it has been closed? If not, how many times has someone initiated a search? What is more likely to alert someone is if you have booked in / PPR'd at an airfield and you don't arrive. If your destination's not an airfield, nominate someone "a responsible person" to look out for you.

AlanM can give good advice regarding who actually looks at your flightplan and has already mentioned who doesn't...... that's why I mentioned flight following via ATC en route.

In class G at night, you are essentially on your own so plan it carefully. If you require a service, ask ATC and generally you will get it, subject to their workload. Listen out first. If they are busy (e.g. have they told someone else to stand by or is the controller talking nineteen to the dozen?) be prepared to route around their airspace without asking for a crossing. If routeing round, you might get a FIS or RIS if they can cope. If you can't get a word in edgeways, at least you have a chance of someone on the frequency hearing a distress call, should the worst happen! Although ATC can offer advice, it's essentially a case of your lookout, your separation from other traffic and from terrain (1000' above the highest obstacle within 5nm or fly SSA off the charts).

It's legal.

[whatsarunway]

Sorry, meant IR and a night rating.

Sorry if im asking an answered question but can you Depart from an unlicenced helipad at night in a twin with an IR?

Us irish are always looking for clarification eh :}

[Curtis E Carr]

Sorry, meant IR and a night rating.
Sorry if im asking an answered question but can you Depart from an unlicenced helipad at night in a twin with an IR?
Us irish are always looking for clarification eh :}

If you can depart from an unlicenced helipad in a single without an IR (see my previous answer), I think it's safe to assume you can do it in a twin and with an IR

[White Hart]

If, after future discussion, the Tech Comm or Ops/Safety Unit decide that filing a flightplan is required after all, then it could prove interesting for operators who have been used to just booking out from EGLL at night; no file - no go, perhaps?

If Ops/Tech decide or advise to the contrary, then I cannot see how the current FBU instruction to advise others operating outside of the LL CTZ of any requirement to file an IFR flightplan can be upheld.

I have no objection to either option - as the guy in the FBU, I just want to know which is the correct one.

[AlanM]

I should point out that WH and his merry band of brothers and sisters do occasionally phone the flt plan detail through to LHR SVFR - but it isn't really needed as Delivery phone up with it on start.

We shall see what transpires. All seems a bit OTT to me.

[[email protected]]

Shytorque - just out of interest, what heights do you normally do your night transits at? I only ask as a mil operator who can fly VFR at night whether or not we might encounter civ traffic below 3000' in the dark.

[JimL]

170',

This has nothing whatsoever to do with JARs. The subject is confined to EGLL and it is a discussion about UK regulations and specifically the ANO.

I would also add that the basis for Rules of the Air - which have been quoted here - are the UK implementation of ICAO Annex 2 SARPs (which, in the case of the UK, contains substantial alleviation for helicopters at night - in the absence of Night VFR). At this time, there is no European harmonisation of Rules of the Air.

There is also, in the range of posts, a mix of discussion between the rules for Commercial Air Transport and General Aviation: for the former, the operational rules are contained either in the ANO or JARs (according to which regime is applied by the operator); for the latter the ANO only.

All pilots should be aware which rules apply to their circumstances; as this is a professional pilots forum, we might expect a higher level of comprehension.

As a general answer to Crab's question, below 3000ft, a pilot can elect to fly at any height that is clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and which complies with the minimum altitude rules (rule 5 etc). I am not sure that even the Military can fly Night VFR as it does not exist in UK Airspace.

Jim

[rotorspeed]

Puntosaurus

Like ShyTorque, I too am amazed you have trouble getting a radar service unless you've filed an IFR flight plan - I've rarely been refused without obvious reason when requesting. You must indeeed be unlucky. Whether or not one can get a radar service outside CAS depends very much on how busy ATC is, and I think most pilots use a bit of common sense before asking. If it's a gin clear night, I'm over Aylesbury northbound and Luton is very busy I wouldn't bother asking, though some do - often with the predictable reply! On a ****ty night IMC, different deal.

I'm sure I'm not alone in once having forgotten to close a flight plan when landing at a private site until, to my dismay, about 6 hours later. No-one had started looking for me - or indeed called my mobile number, which I always put on flight plans. No drama when I apologetically closed late. So doesn't seem filing even an IFR flight plan affords any kind of close monitoring! Better to rely on talking to any service that's awake, with London information always there and requesting position reports. In fact I'd be interested to know how soon they do exactly what, if you don't report - any offers?

I reckon letting a responsible person know your eta, route and who to call if you've not arrived within 30 mins is the safest option.

[AlanM]

In fact I'd be interested to know how soon they do exactly what, if you don't report - any offers?


Surprisingly quick in fact. If you were on frequency and disappeared, the phone calls would start. We get some from London Info occasionally - as well as other units.

Someone cares.....!! :}

[[email protected]]

JimL, according to puntosaurus, civilian traffic must abide by the minimum height rule and fly quadrantals; is he wrong or can you fly IFR outside CAS as long as you simply stay above safety altitude.

The military fly reversionary night flying at or above 500' msd or on NVG at any height - it is certainly not IFR (other than roads,railways etc:) ) but it's not called night VFR even though that is what it is.

[whatsarunway]

Not sure whether i should start another thread on this one but here goes.

About two months ago, I had a flight departing from a 'suitably lit' but unlicenced site at 01:00 in the morning. I filed my ifr flight plan three hours in advance and was night current and My IR was current.

The Departure was in class G airspace IFR but in very good VMC
I climbed to the MSA and flew back to an airport for an ILS and landed without incident.

After landing i was informed that an MOR was filed against me for flying vfr at night outside of controlled airspace.

After discussion with the IAA it was discovered that the rules regarding this were very murky and the IAA are now going to clarify this matter with legislation.. . . . . I.E. ban all night operations that depart from unlicenced sites.

The IAA are adiment that they are following the lead of the CAA and that in the UK it is illegal to depart off airport at night and fly anywhere.

I know the FAA have no problem with this and i thought the CAA didnt either. . . I thought:{



Any thoughts?:\

[Fatigue]

So, technically, no vfr at night in the UK,(unless SVFR inside CAS) if you depart an airport routing to another airport, outside CAS, you are IFR so abide by quadrantal rules and minimum heights...and even on a gin clear night you must also carry alternate fuel as you are following IFR rules????
Thats how I understand it, anyone clarify?

Cheers....

[Curtis E Carr]

whatsarunway

I have no experience nor knowledge of what the situation is over in the Emerald Isle. As regards the UK, I refer you to my previous answers.

Crab

The relevant extract from the Rules of the Air concerning IFR outside controlled airspace is below

SECTION VI INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES

Instrument Flight Rules

28 (1) In relation to flights within controlled airspace rules 29, 31 and 32 shall be the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In relation to flights outside controlled airspace rules 29 and 30 shall be the Instrument Flight Rules.

Minimum height

29 Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 5, in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless:

(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft is flying on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority; or
(d) the aircraft is flying at an altitude not exceeding 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

Quadrantal rule and semi-circular rule

30 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules, an aircraft when in level flight above 3000 feet above mean sea level or above the appropriate transition altitude, whichever is the higher, shall be flown at a level appropriate to its magnetic track, in accordance with the appropriate Table set forth in this rule. The level of flight shall be measured by an altimeter set:

(a) in the case of a flight over the United Kingdom, to a pressure setting of 1013.2 hectopascals; or

(b) in the case of any other flight, according to the system published by the
competent authority in relation to the area over which the aircraft is flying.

(2) An aircraft may be flown at a level other than the level required by paragraph (1) if it is flying in conformity with instructions given by an air traffic control unit or in accordance with notified en route holding patterns or in accordance with holding procedures notified in relation to an aerodrome.

(3) For the purposes of this rule ‘transition altitude’ means the altitude so notified in relation to flight over such area or areas as may be notified.

In other words, you can be IFR and below 3,000 ft/TA thus negating the requirement to fly quadrantals. I am guessing that the military get round this using the exemption stated at Rule 29 (c). Puntosaurus did not say that civilian traffic must abide by the minimum height rule AND fly quadrantals. He referred to Rule 28 which in turns refers to Rules 29 and 30 which, as you can see from the above, only requires compliance with the quadrantal rule when flying above 3,000 altitude or TA whichever is higher.

[[email protected]]

Sorry but I interpret this para

(2) An aircraft may be flown at a level other than the level required by paragraph (1) if it is flying in conformity with instructions given by an air traffic control unit or in accordance with notified en route holding patterns or in accordance with holding procedures notified in relation to an aerodrome.

to mean that unless you are instructed by ATC to fly below 3000' or are in a recognised holding pattern (either en route or aerodrome) then you are obliged to fly above 3000' at a quadrantal at night. I don't believe you making a decision to fly at 2000' for example is an air traffic instruction even if you are on a RIS.

[handysnaks]

Crab, if you are talking about Outside CAS then I think you are misinterpreting the rule.

At night, outside CAS, you are complying with the Instrument Flight Rules if:


if > 3000 ft amsl then you must fly quadrantals (unless approved holding pattern/ notified route/ atc instruction etc)

if< 3000ft then you must remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface

I apologise if i am misinterpreting your interpretation and you already agree with this!!

[Curtis E Carr]

Have to disagree with you, Crab.

Rule 30 states "....in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules, an aircraft when in level flight above 3000 feet above mean sea level ......". It does not say you have to be above 3,000 ft to comply with IFR. . The sub-para (2) to which you refer allows ATC to modify your flight level or allow you to fly a hold without sticking to the usual FL as stated in the table to Rule 30 which I have not reproduced.

If what you say is correct, how do non-IR helicopter pilots fly around the Heathrow Zone at night? Flying at 3,000 ft and above would put them into the London TMA Class A airspace.

[rotorspeed]

Handysnaks

You do not need to be clear of cloud and in sight of the surface to be IFR below 3000ft. Being clear of cloud and in sight of the surface below 3000ft means you can fly IFR at less than 1000ft above any obstacle within 5nm.

[puntosaurus]

Heliport - I'd like to change my moniker to unlucky please.

[handysnaks]

Rotorspeed, the point I was making here was the requirements for Non IMC IFR (or pretend Night VFR)!

However, on reflection I see your point and have edited the superfluous bit out!!

[ShyTorque]

Shytorque - just out of interest, what heights do you normally do your night transits at? I only ask as a mil operator who can fly VFR at night whether or not we might encounter civ traffic below 3000' in the dark.

There is no one answer to your question, except to say that I just follow the rules (if only I could go back to military regs... 500 ft radalt worked fine for me too, for over fifteen years) ;).

If "1000 ft above the highest obstacle within 5nm" is below 3000 ft then I might elect to, or be forced to, fly below that altitude. Under the London TMA is a classic example - it begins at 2500 ft so folk routinely fly IFR (quite legally) at 2400 ft London QNH, or slightly below, bearing in mind that MSA further east reduces by a couple of hundred feet.

Other reasons to be below 3,000 ft? Same as you. I can still fly IFR and remain "VMC" which helps my job be a little easier. If I need to transit an area of poor radar coverage then it's obviously better for everyone to "see and be seen", rather than lurk uneccessarily in cloud.

I might want to find the most favourable winds (which might mean I don't need an extra refuel) or I might need to avoid the icing level, or turbulence.

I keep my lights on for your NVG (of course I do - no more tactical flying or VCPs for me). You keep your Mode C on for my TCAS, and we all keep looking out of the window, so we can all go about our business with an excellent level of safety, probably better than by day. I'll also be obtaining a LARs or other radar service whenever I can. :ok:

[[email protected]]

OK, I have reinterpreted my interpretation and I think I have it straight now - thank goodness for military exemptions to the ANO. The downside is that if I want to fly at night outside CAS below 2000' I have to book in to the night low flying system which you guys don't have to bother with.

[DeltaNg]

In the offshore world - presumably the same rules apply to other civvy operators - one can fly with a minimum 5k vis and 1200' cloudbase at 1000' at night, known as Visual Contact Flight, outside controlled airspace, onshore.
Very confusing issue - but PPLers are doing it all the time...
This is only an en-route ruling though - so can't help with the unlicensed sites bit.

[Fatigue]

Hey there DeltaNg,

Does that mean if you have the limits for visual contact flight at night, you do not carry alternate fuel??? Does visual contact mean a) you now follow VFR rules (UK no night VFR)!!!!! not IFR???

"presumably the same rules apply to other civvy operators"




Any other civvy operaters have the same rules?????

Cheers..

[DeltaNg]

It's a bag of worms admittedly, but we routinely (in the winter) fly 'VCF'when IFR would be impossible due to icing at say 1500', fly the onshore section of the flight using the above criteria. Officially being "IFR" I would say, although no alternate fuel because of 'Coastal Airfield' dispensations. So from a common sense point of view - just flying visually at night. Whatever happened to Night Ratings anyway?

[JimL]

DeltaNg,

There are a number of confusing elements in your statements and they need clarifying. The rules you are quoting are the operational rules and, as you have mentioned offshore, I make the assumption that you are referring to JAR-OPS 3.

Each State is responsible for its own compliance with ICAO Annex 2 (Rules of the Air) - the conditions under which IFR is specified and the low level rules are not necessarily the same in all European States; for this reason the operational rules do not (normally) prescribe an operating height - which might itself be in conflict with a State's Rules of the Air - instead specifying the minimum cloud ceiling.

Hence, for overwater flights JAR-OPS 3.465 stipulates a ceiling of 600ft by day and 1200ft by night. For flight between helidecks with a sector length of less than 10nm, there is an exception to this policy as shuttling is permitted at 300ft by day and 500ft by night (a Risk Assessed policy that has been the de facto standard in the North Sea for a number of years).

VRF flight without alternate fuel has always been permitted for return to land base where the destination is at or above VFR limits; however, a Risk Assessed policy has permitted an IFR return to base without alternate fuel when the conditions at the land base satisfy a number of mitigating conditions (minimum cloud base, location near to the coast, the presence of a low level route which can be flown VFR from the coast in the conditions specified, the presence of weather radar which permits a let-down over the sea to 500ft, etc).

The reason this alleviation was introduced was to prevent scud-running back to shore in conditions where IFR alternate fuel had been (legitimately) traded for payload. It is expected that such flights will be conducted IFR with an instrument approach at the destination.

Flights in limited icing conditions are undertaken with a not-dissimilar set of rules that have been in existence in the UK for a number of years and which are now being introduced into JAR-OPS 3. These flights in icing (and limited icing) conditions are conducted in cloud and under IFR.

Jim

[jellycopter]

I've been flying 'civvy' helis for about 6 years now after a couple of decades flying military tackle with the likes of ShyT. I find this thread very interesting, and quite puzzling why it's generating such misunderstanding. I don't see where people are getting the '1000ft clear of obstacleswithin 5nm' bit from. I regularly fly night IFR below 1000ft agl, provided the met is ok and all the kit is working, particularly rad-alt. Let's just re-visit rule 29(d) to clarify that I'm still complying quite legally with IFR whilst flying entirely safely in VMC:-

29 Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 5, in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless:

(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft is flying on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority; or
(d) the aircraft is flying at an altitude not exceeding 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

Now I'll probably open up a hornets nest about the prudence of night transits below 1000ft; but having done it quite safely for years for the Queen, I don't see there should be too much to argue with. Incoming!!!!

J