FAA CPL 250nm x/c flight - all in one day?

[IO540]

This requires three landings.

Is there a requirement for the entire flight to be done inside a single day? The FARs don't say so. What if one does two landings on one day and the 3rd the following day?

[B2N2]

No , at least not stated so.
The interpretation however, is up to the examiner, either an FAA Inspector or a designated examiner.
Not aware of any FAA final rulings or interpretation on the matter.
It is however not required to be a return flight, that I know for sure

[mm_flynn]

my recollection is that it needs to be a proper 'flight' so a two day set of legs from a to b sleep b-c and c-d counts, but flying from a -b on Monday, d-e-a on Friday probably wouldn't count. I would have thought any of your long distance trips with a fuel/customs stop would count. I had a quick look but didn't find the FAA FAQ on this particular question.

[englishal]

There used to be an answer on this on the FAA web site, can't find it now.

The flight does not need to be on one day, and does not need to be return so any of your epic voyages will count.

My own was along the lines of Long Beach - Apple Valley (stop for breakfast) - Needles (stop for fuel) - Sedona (stop for a leak) - Laughlin (stop over night for gambling:) ) then the next day Laughlin - Big Bear (stop for some snowball fights) - Chino (to visit the warbird museum) - Long Beach.

[IO540]

Thank you for the input; I agree.

It's slightly annoying because I have loads of 700nm or so legs, with some done two in one day. Even some with another long flight the following day.

It's a significant hassle to log a flight in the UK which meets these requirements all in one day. Basically it means flying a > 600nm round trip. That's a whole day spent sitting (on the autopilot, and at this time of the year probably in IMC) just to get a logbook entry.

Talking of IMC, I not also unsure of whether it needs to be done under VFR or if an IFR flight counts. Obviously, within the UK, you can fly such a trip as "VFR" and non-radio, anyway, so that's a bit moot.

[mm_flynn]

IO,

All you need to do on your next weekend away is make a brief pitstop somewhere. Although I can't find the FAQ, I am sure it explicitly highlighted a leave home, spend a weekend somewhere, stop for fuel on the way back, return home as meeting the requirement (assuming it was 300 miles and at least one point was 250 miles from start).

[foxmoth]

It's a significant hassle to log a flight in the UK which meets these requirements all in one day. Basically it means flying a > 600nm round trip.

According to my maths a 500 mile round trip would do it as
One cross country flight of not less than 300 nm total distance with landings at a minimum of 3 points, one of which must be 250nm from original departure point..
means you can fly to your 250 mile airport with a stop out or back - no need to go further.:hmm:

[SD.]

My FAA CPL qualifier was a couple of legs from a Cali to Florida XC.


As always with the FAA, contact a FSDO if unsure.:ok:

[unfazed]

IO540

You probably know already but just in case....the flight must be "solo" which for FAA means nobody else in the aircraft with you, I believe that this is different to JAR definition of "solo"

[B2N2]

It is not specified, once again..:E
So IFR or VFR, both are accepted.

[mm_flynn]

IO540
You probably know already but just in case....the flight must be "solo" which for FAA means nobody else in the aircraft with you, I believe that this is different to JAR definition of "solo"


The FAR says the flight actually must be with you as PIC, not solo (61.129). I think solo as an FAA term only applies to student pilots and as such means no one else in the aircraft.

[unfazed]

mm flynne

When I did my FAA cpl at the start of this year they were quite adament that my flying club FI jollies to far flung places did not count as I was not sole occupant of the aircraft

FAR 61.129 (4) states 10 hours of "SOLO" flight time to include at least.....

(i) one X/C flight of at least 300nm .........(with some very specific distances)

Worth checking before you go as it can up the budget a little bit

[mm_flynn]

I didn't read carefully enough to pick up the Solo word in (4):* .

Was the issue you ran across that your flights were with passengers or was it that they were with other 'flight crew' (in your 'FI jollies' I am assuming you had other pilots/students in the plane)? In any event, I don't recall any difference in logging between being PIC with my non-flying spouse in the plane and beign PIC all alone)

[englishal]

Here is the definitve from [email protected]

QUESTION: A question has come up regarding § 61.129(a)(4)(i) from an examiner in our district.

A private pilot conducted a cross-country flight from Pompano, Fl to Virginia making ONE stop in South Carolina. He stayed overnight visiting friends and the next day he returned to Florida using the reverse route. He now wants to apply this cross-country flight to meet the requirement for § 61.129(a)(4)(i).

The questions are: 1) If this is one flight, how many days can elapse and still be counted as one flight? i.e. one night, three nights, 2 weeks, 1 month, etc?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.129(a)(4)(i) and § 61.1(b)(3)(ii); Yes, it is a good cross-country. This cross-country can be counted for § 61.129(a)(4)(i) purposes and also for § 61.65(d)(1) purposes.

If my geography is correct, a cross-country flight from Pompano, Florida to Virginia and return is a “. . . cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance.” And the first stop in South Carolina is “. . . at least is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point” (i.e., Pompano, Florida). And the cross-country flight involved “. . . landings at a minimum of three points . . .” (i.e., airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and Pompano, Florida). Yes, the landing on the return trip back to Pompano, Florida counts as one of the 3 landings.
{Q&A-433}

As far as Solo goes, if you don't log your passengers in the log book then you were solo right ? Certainly for the ME CPL Solo is not required, as the FAA recognise that a) no one will rent you a ME aeroplane for "solo student" operations and b) even if you do have a private ME rating you may not be able to rent an aeroplane. For my SE CPL I did the 300 nm flight in a ME aeroplane which then convered the requirements of the SE.

[Whopity]

ICAO Annex 1 says:
20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot-incommand
including a cross-country flight totalling not
less than 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which
full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be
made;

The emphasis is on "a" (one) flight with two stops. If its conducted over two days, its hardly "a" flight!

[unfazed]

Solo in FAA terms means exactly that.. Nothing to do with whether a pilot or not is in the right seat.[

My FI Club jollies were with students and PPL's who rotated seats, for FAA purposes you need to be the sole occupant of the aircraft, I was a bit miffed but on reflection it makes sense, no votes on what to do, no help with map etc etc - makes sure you can handle everything on your own

Looks like I should have done it in a multi...oh well that plan is next on the hit list !

[IO540]

Thank you Englishal. I will present this to the CFI.

He did actually get a reply from an FAA contact saying the opposite, but the source would not respond in an official capacity, which is odd.

What you have is obviously better.

Whopity - to the extent one can play with words, I would say this could be argued precisely both ways. IMHO most normal people would regard a "flight" as a "journey", especially since a single "flight" cannot possibly have more than one landing.

[dublinpilot]

Those who do an "around the world flight" don't do it in a single day.

If it was to be done within a single day, then what is the day defined by? Midnight to nightnight? UTC or Local time? Local time at point of departure or destination? Any 24 hour period? And what of the poor folks who are trying to do this against the international date line! :eek:

What if the pilot had an aircraft capable of staying aloft for 8 hours, and decided they were going to do it in style....... An 8 hour leg at 100kts. First landing 800nm from base. Refuel, and repeat again. Refuel and repeat again. So in a little over 24 hours (allowing for refuling) they would have traveled 2,400nm from base, having made 2 stops. Would this flight not count because they hadn't completed all the stops within a single day?

Seems logical that it would not have to be all done on the same day. Though I have to admit, logic and aviation rules don't often agree!

[IO540]

I've sent you a PM ca-flyer.

The answer basically, is that I am trying to find out in advance to get all my ducks in a nice row. A 300nm flight (600nm+ actually, of course) is easy to knock off but I would prefer to do it when I want to, not just to achieve a logbook entry at a cost of a few hundred quid in fuel and operating costs. The weather is really naff right now, too, for what is supposed to be a "VFR" flight.

[englishal]

Peter,

When I am home I can send you the Part 61 FAQ doc produced by John Lynch of the FAA if you want. It is a document which transcribes the FARs into plain english, it used to be on the FAA web site but the link doen't work at the moment.

The point of a 300nm XC is to test whether the CPL candidate can aviate, navigate and communicate on a long cross country flight, which in your case, with your epic cross european voyages you clearly can. The Pt61 FAQs backs this up with a plain english response from the FAA, but remember the FARs are the "Minimum" requirements, aimed at the new certificate holder. In your case, and your logbook will no doubt verify your experience and you "above and beyond" many of these minimum requirements and a DPE will not even glance twice at your 300nm XC requirements due to the numerous long flights logged. If you only had one 300nm cross country logged, it may be a slightly different story.

There is no point making a mountain out of a molehill as some like to do!

Cheers