Daft question about the Tornado GR4!

[cavepunk]

Hi there!

Not sure if I'm really allowed to use this site (being a civilian!) but it was suggested I come here by the guys on the British Army Rumour Service Forum. They said I'd get some great "techno-babble" here - just what I need! - and I'd like to ask anyone here in the know some what-might-seem-like ridiculous questions about the Tornado?

I'm a comics writer and my new story involves a Tornado being ordered to bomb the Castlerigg stone circle in Keswick. I've often watched them flying over this part of the Lake District (LFA17, according to the little I've managed to find out on the internet) but for the story I'm writing I need to know various specific technical jargon etc. so that the story is at least based on some kind of reality.

I thought I'd ask first if that was okay rather than you guys laughing me out of the water with my lame-arse questions! You can email me personally or I'll check in back here later...

Thanks in advance,

john

[trap one]

Cavepunk
May I suggest that you you post your questions along with a brief synopsis of the part the GR4 crew plays in the comic, so that the Tonka mates can reply if they wish.

[orca]

If your research unearths what that fellow in the back does can you PM me? I assume that your comic will be big enough to accomodate speech bubbles for "Yeah, fuel's still fine" etc from somewhere behind the business seat?

[hobie]

while your waiting .....

http://www.targeta.co.uk/images/041_9446_RJa.jpg

[NoseGunner]

Cavepunk

Post away with your questions. You will get a mix of replies, but it should be possible to sort through the rabble and get some decent answers.

If you give more detailed background it may help, many here are paranoid about Press on a fishing trip.

[jonesthepilot]

I hope that photo was taken by the wingman or this lad is very close to and belly up to the hard stuff!:confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

jonesthepilot, have you seen some of the cameras that jonesthespotter uses? Low flying obstructions in their own right. Very phallic.:D

[hobie]

I hope that photo was taken by the wingman or this lad is very close to and belly up to the hard stuff!:confused:

As far as I know it's just a rather expert photographer hanging off the side of a Mountain .... :)

http://www.targeta.co.uk/images/062_4077w5+.jpg

[cavepunk]

Cavepunk

Post away with your questions. You will get a mix of replies, but it should be possible to sort through the rabble and get some decent answers.

If you give more detailed background it may help, many here are paranoid about Press on a fishing trip.




Hi there!
Thanks for all your replies! What a brilliant site! This internet thing can be a real boon to lazy writers like me... although I've spent the last week online trying to find the info I need, without much luck...
And obviously there's the Official Secrets Act etc. so I don't want to break any laws or anything...

I've emailed a couple of guys privately and I hope it's okay if I repost an edited version here. I'm sure these questions will make me sound like a total nutcase but please bear with me as it IS a daft science-fictionish comic story!


Coould I propose this situation - which has to happen more or less this way purely because the story dictates it - and would you mind filling in the details and nicknames and jargon etc. so it at least seems vaguely plausible?
I want a secret Masonic government group to order the covert bombing of Castlerigg. (Not very covert, I know, but you'll get what I mean in a mo...)
A Tornado GR4 is scrambled (? or is that an Americanism?) - with sidewinder missiles - from RAF Lossiemouth. It would be good to know the callsign (again??) of the base and also how they would refer to the pilot on the radio and vice versa. Also, since this might be a suicide mission, is it possible for the plane to fly with just one pilot and what rank would he be? I'm thinking some middle-rankish who'd be expendable (and sinmgle?) and wouldn't ask too many questions if he lived.
Also, does a Tornado have an onboard computer that can "talk" as I've found a clip on the internet - http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/006426.html
which shows an F-16 crash as a result of bird strike to an engine and it seems to have some kind of computer-synth voice talking to the pilot. (Or I'm mistaken and it's the tower over the radio...)
The Tornado flies towards Castlerigg. Again, what kind of conversation/ techno-talk would he use back-and-forth with the ATC as he approached the site? I know the Tornado's normal minium height limit is 250 ft. above ground level but how would it approach and how would I describe the pilot informing the ATC guys (basically, my readers) of his descent?
It's a moderately cloudy night with a full moon - dawn approaching as he nears Castlerigg. (I've read the Tornado is best suited for low-visibility flying but again, the story dictates this...) But as he approaches, his radar picks up a ghostly image in the air a few miles away from the stone circle. How would he describe this to the ATC people?
It in fact turns out to be a vast swirling flock of crows (that's why it has to be dawn) and the Tornado has a bird strike. (I read on BBConline that, sadly, something very similar happened recently with a Tornado from RAF Marham...) What kind of conversation might occur then in this life-and-death situation? Obviously, I'm the writer, so I'll try to wring some emotion out of it, but what information would be relayed back and forth before impact/ejection?
The pilot loses control and either ejects out or is ordered to divebomb Castlerigg kamikaze-style. Which I guess means I have to have him say "Oh ****!" at the very least!
Anyway, that's basically it. I'm not a plane guy (I've found out what I could online but it's not been much) so sorry that this ramble makes little sense. And sorry I've gone into such length for what will probably only end up a four-page sequence in a comic. But I'd like to get as much accurate information as possible so you'd be a great help to me if you could fill in the blanks and stuff...
Thanks in advance for your help and sorry if I'm expecting a bit much! Bet you wish you'd never replied to my bloody posting now, eh? ;-)
Cheers!
john


If anyone's interested, the Castlerigg connection comes from the rather Quatermass-y theory of "earthlights" -
http://www.earthlights.org/earthlight_mechanisms.html
which can be used to explain UFOs/aerial light phenomenon and, in my opinion, is a damn sight more plausible than the flying saucer/ET hypothesis!

[Earsling]

Cavepunk.

You don't want your hero armed with a Sidewinder - that's for shooting t'other geezer down in a dogfight scenario.

If you want to create a big hole you want him to have at least a couple of Laser guided Paveway3's. (Google it).

Hero could self designate the target and release his PW's before hitting the crows.

twill leave a nice big hole.

However our lot have been chipping away at Garvey for years but still not sunk it yet!!! :}

[Stuff]

A Tornado GR4 is scrambled (? or is that an Americanism?) - with sidewinder missiles - from RAF Lossiemouth. It would be good to know the callsign (again??) of the base and also how they would refer to the pilot on the radio and vice versa.
Scrambled is fine, sidewinders are not. As Earsling says they are an air to air weapon not air to ground.
Callsign would be Lossie XX for a singleton. (XX are numbers, eg Lossie 32 pronounced Lossie Three Two)
How he would refer to the other station he was talking to would depend on who it was. For real with this tasking he wouldn't actually be talking to anyone, certainly not broadcasting his run in on the radio, however if it's necessary then you might want to have him talking to MAGIC.

Also, since this might be a suicide mission, is it possible for the plane to fly with just one pilot and what rank would he be? I'm thinking some middle-rankish who'd be expendable (and sinmgle?) and wouldn't ask too many questions if he lived.
Is it possible to fly with one person on board? Hmm, I've felt like it's been that way for years! Anyway.... there may be some debate over whether it's possible, you could certainly have the Nav unstrap and get out after start but while this might give you an aircraft that physically gets airborne it wouldn't do the job you want for the story. The radar screen and weapon selection switches are in the back for a start.
Rank - probably Flt Lt although Sqn Ldr is not uncommon among the old and bold.
Also, does a Tornado have an onboard computer that can "talk" as I've found a clip on the internet - http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/006426.html
which shows an F-16 crash as a result of bird strike to an engine and it seems to have some kind of computer-synth voice talking to the pilot. (Or I'm mistaken and it's the tower over the radio...)
No voice in a tonka just the whoop whoop sound of the attention getters.

The Tornado flies towards Castlerigg. Again, what kind of conversation/ techno-talk would he use back-and-forth with the ATC as he approached the site? I know the Tornado's normal minium height limit is 250 ft. above ground level but how would it approach and how would I describe the pilot informing the ATC guys (basically, my readers) of his descent?
It's a moderately cloudy night with a full moon - dawn approaching as he nears Castlerigg. (I've read the Tornado is best suited for low-visibility flying but again, the story dictates this...) But as he approaches, his radar picks up a ghostly image in the air a few miles away from the stone circle. How would he describe this to the ATC people?
More likely there would be a conversation between the Nav who can see it and the pilot who can't. Could this fit in the storyline?

It in fact turns out to be a vast swirling flock of crows (that's why it has to be dawn) and the Tornado has a bird strike. (I read on BBConline that, sadly, something very similar happened recently with a Tornado from RAF Marham...) What kind of conversation might occur then in this life-and-death situation? Obviously, I'm the writer, so I'll try to wring some emotion out of it, but what information would be relayed back and forth before impact/ejection?

Generally lots of swearing, initiate a gentle climb and then sort out whatever emergency you are left with.

The pilot loses control and either ejects out or is ordered to divebomb Castlerigg kamikaze-style. Which I guess means I have to have him say "Oh ****!" at the very least!

Once you have lost control, flying it on to a precision target kamikaze-style is generally quite hard!!!

[Green Flash]

Winders might feature in this scenario - but carried by the F3's! If the GR4 was flying an unorth'd or unexpected profile you might find that the boys and girls at Leuchars would get a little excited. I suppose it would be down to how well the GR can hide in the Scottish mountains before a burner run into the target area. If MAGIC was up however, I expect the game to be up too.

[L J R]

250' AGL gives me a nose bleed.!!!

Peacetime auth is generally that height, but 100' is possible (and reasonably easy). Also, 100' is allowed in some areas Lower altitude is also possible but takes a little more concentration, especially at 600+Kts.

If some guy was to go on a suicide mission, height would not be an issue.... - ie rules out of the window me suspects.


My choice of loadout: 2 EPW, 2 ALARM. 90 Rounds of HE. 2 winders, Large Jugs (Jettison when empty) Nav optional.....(Tin hat on!)....

The voice would be saying PULL UP PULL UP ..... (Yes there is one for some things!)

Callsign: Use Lossie 01.....

[Earsling]

"My choice of loadout: 2 EPW, 2 ALARM. 90 Rounds of HE. 2 winders, Large Jugs (Jettison when empty) Nav optional.....(Tin hat on!)....

The voice would be saying PULL UP PULL UP ..... (Yes there is one for some things!)

Callsign: Use Lossie 01....."

Cavepunk this is good gen from L J R but please let me translate...

2 EPW = 2 Enhanced Paveway. These can be Paveway 2's or 3's. 2's are a standard 1000lb bomb adapted to become a laser guided bomb. 3's are generally known as the bunker buster as they are designed to bury themselves deep underground before exploding. The enhanced bit means that as well as laser designating to the target they be controlled by a kind of "Sat nav".

2 ALARM = Air Launched Anti Radiation Missile. Basically this baby will take out any radar by following its radiation signal down to the target. If the radar is switched off then the missile can "loiter" around until it is switched back on again.

90 Rounds of HE. 90 rounds of High Explosive ammunition fired from the 27mm Mauser cannon. Personally I would like to give the FRAP a go. (Fragmentation Round Armour Piercing)

2 winders = 2 Sidewinder AIM 9 series air to air missiles as discussed earlier.

Big jugs and little jugs = external underwing fuel tanks to give you that extra range. Jettisonable as LJR states.

Another option is the Storm Shaddow. Great bit of kit this, its like the RAF's cruise missile only better.

That's it for now though I expect the bones will be picked out of this.....

[STANDTO]

why not use a jag, or a harrier? something single seater?

or tab in a SAS dems team and just blow it up with C4?

[BANANASBANANAS]

Not sure if it is still in the public domain or not but there was a "live" recording of the pilot/nav intercom chat in the 1991 Gulf War low level attacks on Iraq. I know that cos:-

1. I heard it broadcast on the radio, and;

2. The Nav was a mate of mine.

It might still be available if you ask around enough.

Good luck.:ok:

[cavepunk]

why not use a jag, or a harrier? something single seater?

or tab in a SAS dems team and just blow it up with C4?


Hi there - and thanks, everyone, for the replies (particularly Stuff and Earsling)! Top information that it'd otherwise be very hard to nail down right!

Because of the way the story's plotted (there are "earthlights" generated by Castlerigg stone circle which renders anyone within their electromagnetic range unconscious) I couldn't have an SAS team blowing the place up, put thanks for the idea!

I decided on a Tornado coz I thought it looked better (just my opinion! don't flame me!) and the comic artist would have more fun drawing it...

However, all your replies have made me rethink the sequence so I'll probably go with the guys bombing Castlerigg (no Sidewinders: got that!) then veering wildly off and crashing. Basically, I'm just going for cheap visual impact/summer blockbuster mode! Hey, it's comics! That's what the kids expect!

Thanks again, everyone! The strip won't see print till the summer but I'll try to remember to pop back here and give you a glimpse of how the sequence turned out...

Cheers!
john

[PPRuNeUser0211]

It's on the boys from bahrain video IIRC BB

[O2thief]

Check your PM's

O2T

[BANANASBANANAS]

Thanks for the PM O2T. I tried to reply but apparently "you are not accepting PMS" according to the error message I got. Yes that was the person. Reference to him now edited out of my post for obvious reasons.:{

[Obi Offiah]

Hello cavepunk

May I suggest eight 1000lb retarded bombs for the mission (you mentioned its a low level mission). Also perhaps having the terrain following system fly the aircraft if visiblity is poor.

The air to ground radar probably wouldn't pick up circling crows. Even in air to air mode the radar may struggle to detect the crows unless they were some sort of hybrid super crow, with aluminium skin, highly durable metal matrix composite feathers and a titanium beak. :)

Obi