What constitutes a night qualification for CPL issue?

[Lord Flashart]

LASORS D1.2(D) says that during the CPL "an applicant who does not already hold a night qualification/rating (Aeroplane) shall be given additionally at least 5 hours night flight instruction"

Under the "experience" section for CPL issue it also says that for issue of a CPL you must have "5 hours night flying, comprising at least 3 hours dual instruction, including at least 1 hour of cross-country navigation, and 5 solo take-offs and full-stop landings."

What constitutes a night qualification for these purposes? I'm going to do a South African PPL, if that includes the requisite night hours (not sure?) am I considered to have a "night qualification"?

If not, the South African night rating is, I understand, more comprehensive than the UK version, but still technically does not entitle you to fly in the UK at night (I understand this is a matter of some contention) since the South Africans consider night flying to be VFR, and the UK CAA consider it to be IFR. So does a SA night rating count for getting a CPL issued and getting on a course without having to do the additional 5 hours of night training?

[PAPI-74]

Strange that the SA night rating is VFR, since you cannot see the surface. I would suggest that you make sure your training is top notch if you are flying at night out there. You won't see anything so you will be on instruments most of the time. Take plenty of survival equipment and know how to use it, sepecially how to light a fire (loins etc...will have you within an hour of night fall).
The JAA CPL does not require the issue of a night rating only the experience as you stated. This saves £75 ish in issue fees.

Not sure how you would transfer the rating, but for another 5 hours on good local knowledge, have another.

[Whirlygig]

I would suspect that, if it's a JAA CPL you are after, then the Night Qual would have to be done in JAA land!

I had a similar issue with a South African Jet Ranger rating - it was not easily convertible onto my JAA licence.

That might be a question for the CAA to answer.

Cheers

Whirls

[FlyingForFun]

Under the "experience" section for CPL issue it also says that for issue of a CPL you must have "5 hours night flying, comprising at least 3 hours dual instruction, including at least 1 hour of cross-country navigation, and 5 solo take-offs and full-stop landings."
I think this is the quote you need. This is not only the night requirements for starting the CPL, it is also the requirements for gaining a Night Qualification.

There is no requirement for the instruction to be given by a JAR instructor. (This is because it is a "Qualification", not a "Rating".) My own night qualification was done by FAA instructors, who had to take guidance from me in what training was required because they'd never done a NQ before. The CAA issued the NQ without any problems, and have subsequently issued me a CPL (and also allowed me to instruct at night) without any problems.

FFF
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[littco]

The JAA CPL does not require the issue of a night rating only the experience as you stated. This saves £75 ish in issue fees.



When you apply for the CPL, ( passing the skills test etc ) if you have not already added you're night rating to license ( paid the £75 to the caa for doing so ) then provided you have the required hours of night flying as stated above then they will add it without charge when they issue you your CPL. (obviously you pay for them to issue you the CPL ) .

Nothing stopping you paying the £75 and adding it to you license before you start the CPL but why pay the extra money...

[PAPI-74]

Mine was a bit shorter.

[Hufty]

FFF is quite correct.

I did all my night flying in the US - I just made sure that the instruction I was being given ticked all the boxes that I would have had to have ticked had I done a night rating in the UK. I was issued a JAA CPL on that basis and indeed having never flown at night in the UK or in a G reg aircraft.

[Leezyjet]

The South African night rating is indeed much more indepth than the UK one. Mine involved 5 hours instrument instruction in the sim, and then 5 hours instrument time under the hood, before transfering to the night flying itself.

I think people are confusing IFR and IMC though. Just because it is dark doesn't mean you cannot see the surface -you might not be able to see detail on the surface, but unless I am mistaken when I have flown at night I have certainly been able to see the ground, otherwise I must have been upside down and those lights below were infact stars !!. (IMC is not in sight of surface and flying on instruments).

IFR only means that you are operating on FL's (1013.2mb) and using the semicircular/quadrantal rules, it doesn't mean that you are flying on instruments. It just means that you are guaranteeing that you will be at the altitude you say you are and flying in the correct direction for that altitude.

In South Africa, everyone flies on FL's and uses the semicircular rules all the time, it is just a standard part of the training, (and IMHO much safer than the free for all that operates in the UK) which is probably why they refer to it as VFR, whilst in the UK, VFR means that you are making no guarantees as to how high or which direction you are flying and most UK VFR pilots do not realise that they can actually fly IFR too as it isn't explained fully as part of the training.

The South African night rating should more than satisfy the UK CAA requirements - it is a more in depth course after all.

:)

[Lord Flashart]

Hufty/FFF,

Thanks for your input - can one of you please give me details of what I should tell my instructors I need to cover so that I can get the night qualification in either SA or the US. thanks.


FFF is quite correct.

I did all my night flying in the US - I just made sure that the instruction I was being given ticked all the boxes that I would have had to have ticked had I done a night rating in the UK. I was issued a JAA CPL on that basis and indeed having never flown at night in the UK or in a G reg aircraft.

[Megaton]

Leezyjet,
So are you saying that below TA/TL pilots in SA fly using 1013? That must make for interesting terrain clearance issues! If they always fly around on 1013 how do they know either their altitude or height without which obstacle clearance/safety altitudes become a might tricky. And besides, IIRC, in the UK, quadrantal rule is recommended for VFR flight about TA.

I've never flown in SA but it all sounds a bit unlikely: I am, however, willing to stand corrected.

[Hufty]

Lord Flashart, I can't remember the requirements off hand, but just take a wee look at LASORS and it will tell you the experience requirements for the night rating - you need to do a certain number of night take-offs and landings and some night cross country from memory. Provided that you do all these you're OK.

[FlyingForFun]

Lord Flashart,

The requirements are (from memory - check LASORS to make sure I haven't missed anything):

- 5 hours of night flying
- 1 hour cross-country (according to JAR, cross-country is 3nm from the airfield)
- 5 solo take-offs and 5 solo full stop landings



Hufty,

I've never flown in SA, but I don't see any problems with what Leezy has said in theory. As for terrain clearance, 1013 is only set when at or above TA, and TA is set high enough that terrain clearance is not an issue unless below it - so no problem there whether IFR or VFR.

FFF
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[Megaton]

Exactly so below TA you fly QNH/QFE as appropriate and above 1013.

[London Mil]

Strange that the SA night rating is VFR, since you cannot see the surface.

Since when have you had to be in sight of surface for VFR? I can think of many scenarios where you cannot see the surface but be legally VFR.