CX KA intergration- Food for thought

[ACMS]

So CX has bought KA. So what now for the Cockpit crew seniority?
In my humble opinion all KA Pilots employed before the purchase date should go behind all CX Pilots employed before the purchase date. Any pilot ( CX OR KA ) employed after that date should go on the bottom of the list.
Naturally all KA Pilot's should be protected in their respective positions from CX Pilot's coming across to steel their commands. Fair enough
My question is this. Has CX recruitment bothered to tell new hires ( since the buy out of KA ) that they will be junior to all the KA crew?? damn important don't you think??
I've seen this happen before in other companies, damn mess followed with a lot of annoyed people losing 200+ numbers after a correction.
Just food for thought.
Any opinions?

[Five Green]

Understatement of the year !

I think (IMHO) that CX will try and keep the two seperate. Similar to how they have set up Air Hong Kong. Similar in that by keeping the two seperate they can realise cost savings on crewing. The Air Hong Kong pilots that did come over came at the bottom.

The other problem is, they slowly erode KA's contract (more effectively than ours that is) then they could take over some of CX routes with the lower cost subsidiary. As long as they use the KA brand (and KA colored aircraft) that should not work on the international routes where the CX brand is the main selling point. There is the possibility of KA expansion (or KA pilot group expansion within a segregated CX pilot pool) on the lower contract while CX slows and with it the career progression.

We already have some cross over as a certain manager's spouse is taking a KA base in Australia could ne be a DEFO aus ?

Whatever happens though I think it is gonna get a little messy.

Ciao

[ACMS]

I thought it about time someone put this idea on Pprune.
The guys and girls thinking about joining CX or KA should be made aware of this possibility

[xdc9er]

@ Five Green,

I thought that CX had a no poaching/gentlemans agreement with Air hong kong???, so infact Air hong kong is a completely separate entity although partly owned CX, do they have a separate seniority list?
can u explain or shed some light?
X

[Five Green]

xdc9er

They do now. Originally CX bought in to Air Hong Kong and then eventually bought it all. When that happened they integrated the Air Hong Kong crew off the then classics and moved them to the 400 freighter and occasionally directly to pax. Then they bought the A-300s moved a few cx managers and pilot managers over, then seperated the operation. Now it is a much lower contract and no chance of moving to CX. Although stand by for new update, as at CX nothing stays the same for too long !!

[rodney rude]

ACMS

Point 1 - Why should CX be advising new hires of their juniority reference KA. There is at this stage no merging of seniority lists therefore there is nothing for them to advise.

Point 2 - Yeah good one, all the KA guys go to the bottom, so the No1 guy on the KA list with 21 years of service, manager, TIRE etc etc goes behing the 220 hour S/O cadet who joined CX yesterday. Good to see you have put a lot of thought into how to destroy careers (ie lbottom of bidding rights pile, last to get leave as requested etc etc). But still - if it works for you - well that's all that matters then eh??!!!

Point 3 - Your scheme will cost CX billions. So much wasted and costly command training before they finally get down to the guys who can actually pass a command. (hey, you asked for it)

[Numero Crunchero]

Man from la mancha
I remember reading a great line..."seek first to understand before trying to be understood". Or perhaps you should look up prejudice....pre - judice. From other posts from ACMS I think he is simply stirring the pot here...being provocative for the sake of getting a response. Your well thought out post does you credit and explains to me why you are most probably NOT in the LHS!
The ability to spell is not directly correlated with intelligence. I do think ACMS tends to be a little 'in your face' at times, but if you look past the emotive language he generally makes a good point. In this case, how are we(if required) going to integrate the 2 seniority lists. One option is as he suggests, CX senior. Another option is to quarantine both seniority lists until the most junior KA member could be a captain in CX....anyone joining from say 1/1/07 could be on the common seniority list and move between companies accordingly.
Anyway DQ, why slander an unknown person when it is so much more intellectually challenging and fun to discuss the issue at hand?????

[mairyhinge]

2 points to make

1. Dont assume automatic intelligence in the LHS. They are just like the rest of us. Some are quite ordinary.

2. There is nothing 'we' can do about the merging of the 2 lists. Its laughable to assume 'we' have any say in the matter.

Good discussion though... :)

[ACMS]

Don Quixote ACMS
You don't sound smart enough to occupy the left window seat as your profile says. OH, I get it, while the Captain is taking his rest, correct?, with an F/O watching you I hope.
Get a life Tosser, and do a spell check next time you post.
And a very good evening to you too.:D, were you drunk when you wrote the crap I see above? The MS word spell checker seemed quite happy with my spelling, but thanks for your concern I'm touched you care.
rodney rudeACMS
Point 1 - Why should CX be advising new hires of their juniority reference KA. There is at this stage no merging of seniority lists therefore there is nothing for them to advise.
Point 2 - Yeah good one, all the KA guys go to the bottom, so the No1 guy on the KA list with 21 years of service, manager, TIRE etc etc goes behing the 220 hour S/O cadet who joined CX yesterday. Good to see you have put a lot of thought into how to destroy careers (ie lbottom of bidding rights pile, last to get leave as requested etc etc). But still - if it works for you - well that's all that matters then eh??!!!
Point 3 - Your scheme will cost CX billions. So much wasted and costly command training before they finally get down to the guys who can actually pass a command. (hey, you asked for it)
where do I start?????????
Cathay Pacific Airways bought the little ship KA. Not the other way around. FACT.
I was in an Australian airline ( shall we call it Airline A ) that bought another Airline ( Airline B ), all the guys in Airline B went to the bottom of the Airline A list. Anyone ( from both Airlines) that joined after that date went to the bottom of the combined list. Six months later the IRC ruled that Pilots employed by Airline A after the buyout date had to go behind Airline B's Pilots,because their date of joining was post buyout date. 20 odd Pilots lost 220 numbers overnight. A few pissed off people that year.
This is very important to anyone thinking of joing KA or CX. I don't care what you say this is worth talking about and I'm not trying to stir any pot. This occured 19 years ago and I can see it happening again.
Point 1: You are correct, nothing "AT THIS STAGE" but stay tuned, anything is possible on the road to screwing Pilots
Point 2: I have a great respect for anyone at KA, however I really don't give a flying frig if the number 1 guy in Dragonair is a BTC, STC, ITC, YYC, GGC or even a LLB.....HE GOES BEHIND ALL THE CX GUYS. If you re-read my post above you will see I suggest that all KA Pilots should be protected in their positions. So a junior S/O cannot take your command. Anyway Cx will not allow a 200 hr cadet to take your position just yet, they still need your experience in the big white jet.
You're saying that someone who has been in CX for 16 years will be out bid by a KA person of 17 years? For basings, type and staff travel? yeah right, get real bud.:D
Point 3: How does this cost Cx Billions?
Over to you "oh wise one" what should we do?
mairyhinge
Good discussion though...
It is an important issue we should consider. Although certain parties above seem to want to turn it into a personal dick measuring contest.

[joebanana]

ACMS is right that this issue will need to be addressed one way or another eventually.

What I will not accept though is that it is best addressed in the manner we have witnessed on this very first page of replies! As always emotive issues will turn into a testosterone / alcohol fuelled, dick measuring exercise in pointless back stabbing and will inevitably make us look foolish and divided in front of the management who are all too happy to watch us tear ourselves apart.

Our fight is not with each other, it is with the people who intend to do our conditions real harm by playing us off against each other. We will all have to swallow something unpalatable to find the best solution to this problem if we are to maintain any sort of unity and fight a common cause. Remaining arrogant and pig headed just because you perceive yourself to be part of the bigger airline will only serve to screw everybody in the end.

[gliderboy]

What I love is that you CX guys think that YOU have bought KA out

Therefore you think you own us. Actually CX owns KA.

They will do what they want. You may be surprised with what they do.

Past merger strategies may not apply in this case

Gliderboy

[ACMS]

No doubt they will try something in a few years time. We should, at the very least, be ready.
pass the ky will ya.............

[rodney rude]

ACMs

Settle down a bit mate. Chill. I see your points. Look at it this way - if KA bought out HK Express none of us here would want to see those guys go senior to us in OUR airline. So i know where you are coming from. But i just think a little bit more thought than what you were applying is needed. No doubt your solution is best for the CX guys, but tragic for half the KA guys - the F/Os. You said my position would be safe against and S/O taking my command. I am currently an F/O - so under your system your S/O gets a command before me. AS an F/O with kids i just break even here. Extend my command out by another 8 years or so and myself and many of my buddies will run. Surely not what CX or KA wants at a time of high recruitment.

Now, on a more mature personal note DO NOT start crapping on about dick measuring contests when you re writing comments like "CX has bought the little ship KA...." that is dick measuring at its best. Enough hypocrisy.

My comment about how it will cost CX billions. i thought the meaning was obvious - but for you I will spell it out. It was my tongue in cheek jibe at going through all the more "senior CX pilots" who at the moment are failing in dumbfounding numbers - add up the cost of waste training until you get to the KA guys who can actually pass. VERY TONUGUE IN CHEEK. Before all the CX guys get ****faced at me - the high failure rate cannot come down to incompetent pilots, it just doesn't make sense. I know you are all highly competent and MUST be being let down by systemic problems. But no doubt management will continue to blame the drivers and not start asking themselves is there something wrong with the system.

And as far as I am concerned - I see no inevitability of a merged seniority list. And I know I stand to be wrong just like those with other opinions stand to be wrong

[ACMS]

rodney rude
ok I'll settle down. Deep breath........................
I suggest that all KA Pilots should have their promotions protected. I guess a Y seniority list should be effected until all get commands? Apparently this was used in the past with other integrations in Oz although I'm not too sure exactly how it worked. NO ONE should be disadvantaged here.
I was putting forward an idea that I think needs to be addressed sooner or later.
that's why I said
Just food for thought.
Any opinions?
right before I was called a tosser for daring to open a topic for discussion
So my apologies if I reacted a little bit.:ok:

[Che Xindamail]

Seems to me that there is more frustration on behalf of the CX boys here than on behalf of the "bought" KA boys. Must be due to the fact that command times in KA have averaged the two year mark, and that bugs the cr*p out of the CX boys stuck in the right hand seat (always has). If KA is the "cheaper" of the two to run, get used to this state of affairs in the years to come. CX management will always be pragmatic.

Over the course of a carreer, command time is what counts, be it on a A320, A330, or a 744F. Once in the LHS those years are pretty lucrative. I know which airline I would have chosen had I been younger, "take-over" or not.

[Five Green]

ACMs

You said my position would be safe against and S/O taking my command. I am currently an F/O - so under your system your S/O gets a command before me. AS an F/O with kids i just break even here. Extend my command out by another 8 years or so and myself and many of my buddies will run. Surely not what CX or KA wants at a time of high recruitment.

First off I worry about however this comes out as the only thing that is guarenteed is that CX will do what is best for CX. You can bet that will be bad for somebody!

Mr. Rude, as to your above quote, presumably you would be on CX pay scale while you wait for command and as an FO on said scale with kids I can tell you that I am better off than at home (for the moment). So you will not see anyone "running off" , be that AUS or where ever. Also while you wait for command at CX you can take a base. Pretty good compared to waiting it out for 10 years here, what with worsening pollution etc.


... going through all the more "senior CX pilots" who at the moment are failing in dumbfounding numbers - add up the cost of waste training until you get to the KA guys who can actually pass.

The company may not look at the KA guys with such relish as you suggest. There are quite a few commanders from Air Hong Kong who came over and were not given commands at cathay. These were guys with alot of heavy jet time (not light twin, 320 time) and yet they also could not pass a command at CX, not even on the freighter !(sorry guys :-))That is to say they were already flying freighters not that freighters is in any way an easier or less standard command!!

Also food for thought ALL of the Air Hong Kong guys went to bottom of the seniority list but the FOs kept their seats (if they passed the course, but all did) but their seniority was lower than some SOs who have subsequently caught up. As for Captains I am not awhere of how that all fell into the CX system. I know some may have re-qualified and are on the freighter but some did not and are pax fleet FOs. Of course this was easily done as we were only talking about less than 60 guys (I wait to be corrected on exact numbers) With KA much bigger issue.

My two cents worth is this. CX continues KA brand into China and on routes suited to smaller planes or increased frequency. These might be the routes that the newer LCC begin to operate. Offer more freq and lower the price to compete. So they will keep a portion of the flight crew seperate. Any routes that CX wants to fly the CX flag on or perhaps take over some but not all of the departure/arrival slots in order to gain market awareness and perhaps larger market share. CX will poach appropriate crew from KA, dependant on the number of aircraft to be transferred. They will transfer the FOs with not too much problem but will still play silly buggers with the Commanders ( until you have proven youself in the CX culture). CX's need for commander's will have then reached critical levels so they may not be able to bugger too many commands up, but they will do some. Meanwhile the rest of the FO CX list will watch as some of the KA Captains move into CX left seats. There is the possibility that the KA guys would be used to fill the freighter slots but that would mean the loss of type rated guys staying on their rated machines.

Just a guess !

It will be justified under the guise of expansion being good for all !

GET YOUR HELMETS ON BOYS

[sizematters]

actually it has already been decided that the KA guys will go on the bottom of the list , irrespective of rank, DOJ etc etc............................

[Five Green]

Yeah but......

Is that bottom of list but retain your seat ? As most of the Air Hong Kong pilots did. With the exceptions as I laid out above.

Things could change with time before anything gets done !!

[rodney rude]

Dear Mr five Green,

Thank you for your interesting last post. Some good words of wisdom.

Just a couple of points. Firstly I disagree that if we merge I will sit as an F/O on CX pay scales. No way will I suddenly be given a $10k per month pay rise. Not possible. And as for access to basings - already spoken to CX heirachy about this, it may change, but was told KA won't be given access to bases. So not too much in it for us.

Good to hear you won't do a runner. But that shows we are all different. Extend my right seat by 8 years and I WILL go, and mates of mine also have said they will go.

As for my comments about commands, and your response that CX may not relish KA guys as I suggest. Please remember, I put in big letters TONGUE IN CHEEK. As I said, I didn't mean it at all. I was just having a shot at ACMS's attacks on us at "the little ship KA." No offence was intended.

And as my colleague sitting here with me suggests - if CX guys are a bit worried about KA guys coming and taking commands then just rmember, it is a two way bridge, ie could bid for an early 330 command at KA and enjoy all that China has to offer........ Paradise in HZ FU, BLDU, CRAP,****. No honestly, Chengdu ain't that bad.


Rod

[Five Green]

Rodney :

No offence taken, just wanted to give you a little history of how CX operates.

There is a lot of snobbery over here. No matter what your background you will face it here at CX. Some get it worse than others though.

Not sure if what you were told re: bases and pay scales etc was related to an integration scenario or not.

Cathay already missed the boat for a fleet to upgrade on when they seperated Air Hong Kong after integrating it. It could have been great experience for the less experienced among us here at CX. It can be said that KA could be an equally good place to gain experience before being let loose on long haul ! In honesty though I would think that China etc. has more pitfalls than LA or London (maybe not New York !)

Cheers

[Dan Winterland]

Rodney :

It can be said that KA could be an equally good place to gain experience before being let loose on long haul ! In honesty though I would think that China etc. has more pitfalls than LA or London (maybe not New York !)



Yes, i've heard that nonesense before. Someone in CX was explaining how the S/Os were going to fly the A320 for some experience. What makes people think that it's easier? I've flown Long Haul around most of the globe and flying shorthaul around China is far harder. And I agree with your last sentiment. Except that JFK and Beijing are as bad as each other.

[Harbour Dweller]

Someone in CX was explaining how the S/Os were going to fly the A320 for some experience.

That would apply mainly to the ex cadets.

CX has a many an S/O with lots of hours on types including the A320, B737 and heavier. No problems with experience for these guys.

[Follow the Follow Me]

There is little capacity in the KA TRG system to help CX pilots gain experience. In fact, this would be a gross under utilisation of resources better used training to capacity to meet projected expansion.

If KA commands where ever available to CX FOs. Those with a high core set of skills should probably only apply. There is nothing overly difficult about demonstrating a 3X ADR failure into Chongqing. But the nature of long haul flying and it's lack of exposure and sectors, aswell as cultural differences between the two airlines, doesn't make for great preparation.

Swire will play the two off against each other. The schoolgirl egos here, would see them slash their own conditions out of spite, in order to satisfy professional jealousy.

[Line Up Behind]

Just want to know from Cx pilots, how it is to work for Cx?
Advert for A340 F/O based in AMS. Want to know how is the rostering (how many trips a month - how long are the trips), payscale etc

Read that time to command can take very long, as can it take in Europe at major airlines - thats no prob for me.

Thanks in advance.

K.

[W Weasel]

Having gone through several mergers in my career I can tell you a few rules. It is of no value for one side to talk directly with the other side (in a non mediated environment.) Basically, what you are trying to do is convince the opposition that they are WRONG and you are right. When that does not work (and it never does ;) insults fling, verbal taunts abound and the proverbial downward slide goes on with everyone loosing.

There are a few methods of mergers that I have seen over my multitude of years and let me simply pass them on to you and explain the potential problems.


1. Career Expectations. Airline A has a pilot seniority that can expect upgrades faster than Airline B, therefore airline A should have an equal percentage of pilots “on top” of airline B. It can be upgrade expectations, reserve to schedule expectations, small to medium to heavy jet upgrade. Domestic to International expectations etc. This thinking places a pilot RATIO based upon these criteria and SLOTS pilots seniority accordingly.

2. Equipment Size. This usually comes into play when there are two types of events. One airline has larger equipment than the other airline and there is a difference in work rules, pay, and trips etc. on the different equipment. This thinking then puts a scaled value on the equipment and determines a RATIO used to ratio pilot’s seniority as well.

3. Airline Size. This is a ratio using one or a combination of things to determine the size of an airline. Airline A buys airline B; however, airline A has 500 pilots and airline B has 1000 pilots. Or airline A has 100 aircraft and airline B has 50 aircraft. Or airline A has 100 million annual RPMs and airline B has 200 million annual RPMs. This thinking then states to “SLOT” pilots based on some or all of this data.

4. Cut and Paste. My definition today but in the past it was called “Staple.” Simply put one pilot group is placed at the bottom of the seniority list of the other group. Usually this is the purchasing company on top and the purchased on the bottom. Surviving named companies have also been heard from. You know airline A buys airline B and calls the new airline, airline A (or B). Some members have suggested this method and I have heard all the arguments (nothing new here.) This thinking is usually racist, superior minded, selfish and unacceptable to most human thinking. YES, I have seen it occur (even in a merger I was involved in) however, all those points above are still valid. History, when viewed from the outside, always comes to the same opinion.

5. DOH (DOJ). Date of hire or using the originator “Allegheny Mohawk Merger Provisions” tends to be the most favored and fair of systems. Yes it can appear to give special treatment to the stagnant airline and punish the dynamic airline; however, with respect to pilot’s seniority it has little to do with management decisions. The older pilots usually are the more senior pilots and therefore, in this situation, leave the company sooner for the junior/younger pilot. By this method the junior pilot will NATURALLY progress.

Now of all these major methods above there is one important thing people must remember. MERGERS HAVE CAUSED AIRLINES TO GO INTO BANKRUPCY AND EVEN CEASE TO EXIST!

The US Air - Piedmont merger was so vicious that 15 years AFTER the two airlines were put together (17 years after US Air bought Piedmont) the pilots were still fighting. There was NEVER a cohesive pilot force after that and the “Civil Was” as the pilots called it was still raging. There was the “Northern Division” (US Air pilots) and the “Southern Division” (Piedmont Pilots) and the company could never achieve positive results that they should have. Contract negotiations were never easier for management since the civil war was more important the both sides pay stub.

The Republic – Northwest merger still today (after 20 years) has the green book, red book contracts. Pilots flying side by side work under different rules, pay etc. Not a nice situation if you are a Captain making less than the First Officer sitting next to you.

American – TWA wound up putting TWA right out of business and having the pilots hope for the best. Most got the worst and 30 years Captains started sitting right seat for 10 year Captains. American has yet to realize 1 dime worth of benefits from the merger.

These are but a few of the problems you may know of but here are a few you may have forgotten.

United – Capitol (Capitol had the big aircraft DC-8s while United had small aircraft and Capitol guys got screwed.)

United – Pan Am Pacific. (United did not fly to the Orient but Pan Am guys got screwed.)

Pan Am – National (National had domestic routes; Pan did not, but National Screwed.)

Delta – Northeast (Northeast screwed.)

Piedmont – Empire (Piedmont had no routes in Northeast USA, but Empire got stapled.)

British Airways – B. Cal (B-Cal screwed.)

United – Frontier (Frontier guys put out of business)

Southwest – Tran star (Tran star guys put out of business)

And who can forget Frank Lorenzo's Texas International and Continental (everyone screwed.)

There are tons more I have seen in my career. Only a few have been successful, due to the hard work of pilots and management. Successes!

Hughes Air West (now Republic/Northwest) and Bonanza.

Allegheny (now US Airways) - Mohawk

Allegheny (now US Airways) - Lake Central

US Airways – PSA

American – Air Cal

Alaska – Jet America

Delta – Pan Am Europe


So guys remember one thing. You make a merger work, and then in a few years it will be irrelevant. Your company will take off, everyone will want to come there and work and guys will all move up. Screw your fellow pilot, and then 20 years from now it will still be hell to work there. Resentments are rarely forgotten! Remember, no matter how “FAIR” you think your opinion is, how fair does your fellow pilot feel it is?

Good luck and I guess I will just keep my last few years here and not go over to your guys.

Burners and out!