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davey147
12th Nov 2006, 09:53
I have a PPL and Night Rating, and is currently completing ATPL theory.

When finished I need to get my CPL and IR, which one should I do first, CPL or IR?

Also if I do a ME CPL does that automatically get me a SE CPL or are they two seperate courses?

Thanks

expedite08
12th Nov 2006, 15:19
Hi there,

I would do your CPL first. I believe that you may have to have the CPL before you can do the IR anyway.

What are you looking to go in to? If your not one of these types who lives in the clouds when it comes to jobs etc, ie think your going to get on a shiny jet straight away, I would recoment the FI rating too. This would enable you to instruct and build up some suitable hours and experience.

If you need any more help feel free to PM

Hope this helps

Expedite :ok:

mcgoo
12th Nov 2006, 15:35
Hi there,
I would do your CPL first. I believe that you may have to have the CPL before you can do the IR anyway.
Expedite :ok:

No you don't, you can do the IR anytime.

metar
12th Nov 2006, 15:39
Actually you don't need to have a CPL for the IR. Current requirements are:

Hold a current JAR PPL or CPL
• Have passed the theoretical knowledge examinations for IR(A) or ATPL(A) in any JAA member state
• Be fluent in the English language
• Hold a JAR Class I Medical Certificate, or Class II Medical Certificate with Class I audiogram testing for holders of a JAR PPL
• Have at least 50 hours experience cross country

I did my IR after completing my ATPLs then did my CPL after that. There are different views about pros and cons of doing it this way. On the plus side you get a 10 hour reduction off minimum training for CPL, the downside you have an extra 5 hours to do for your IR. So... IR first saves you 5 hours ($), and you won't struggle with the instrument flying part of the CPL test.

Conversely there is an argument that having the CPL flying experience first will help you with your IR flying. Probably true to a degree but I passed both CPL and IR at the first attempt so didn't make much of a difference for me.

You'll end up putting your IR onto your CPL anyway so I don't think the order is that important. Any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Enjoy! (Oh and expedite's advice about FI rating I agree with!)

davey147
12th Nov 2006, 17:31
Thanks for the info guys, ill go for the CPL first. I don't need an instrutor rating as I have a FO job lined up with an airline flying 737's, its always a backup though I suppose!

planecrazy.eu
12th Nov 2006, 20:42
When you say you have a job lined up, is that a serious job offer by an airline? seems pretty cool to have an offer so early on, i hope my luck turns out like that...

From what i have read, i would do the CPL first, and then go for the IR...

FI Course i agree with too, it seems to be getting an ever more important qualification as a back-up or gap filler till that airline job offer...

davey147
12th Nov 2006, 20:55
Get your self out and do a bit of networking, go to the flyer shows and other exhibitions around the country, you'll eventually meet people who are high up, or know people who are important within an airline.

Its who you know that gets you the jobs, you also have to be in the right place at the right time with a little luck!

The reason 1000's of people on these forums who seem to moan about it being impossible to find a job, is because they go about it the wrong way. It makes me laugh when I read that some guys say the send out 100 CV's per month, thats just a waste of paper as they will just go in the bin.

Its hard to find a job, a CV alone wont get it for you.

edymonster
12th Nov 2006, 21:39
You also dont need to build as many hours to start your IR training as you do for your CPL training.

Bealzebub
12th Nov 2006, 22:05
Thanks for the info guys, ill go for the CPL first. I don't need an instrutor rating as I have a FO job lined up with an airline flying 737's, its always a backup though I suppose!

:) Being told to come back when you have a professional licence is not quite the same thing as "having an F/O job lined up". It is true that networking is a very useful resource and it has been instrumental in many people achieving their goals, however it is nonsense to suggest that CV's "just go in the bin", they are the primary method used in pilot selection.

The problem for someone starting out is that it is a pyramid in so much as there are a lot of people with low levels of experience competing for the jobs that are being offered by airlines, who in turn want the best candidates with the best experience. Although the marketplace adjusts itself periodicaly to the levels of supply and demand, it has always been this way.

Airlines do not "line up" jobs for PPL holders with ambition even when those PPL holders may be related to current long serving employees, and although such connections may be an advantage they are very, very far removed from any semblance of a guarantee.

As a PPL holder, you have a lot of hoops to jump through before you are even qualified to take your place alongside the thousands of qualified low hour wannabes with whom you eventually hope to compete. It is of course good to ask questions, but your posting history does rather suggest a basic understanding of the requirements, and doesn't really suggest why 737 operators would be "lining up" jobs for you ?

The best advice I can offer is to listen carefully to those "back ups" rather than getting peoples backs up, which are again two very different things but worthy of some thought.

expedite08
13th Nov 2006, 08:11
Have to agree there Bealzbub.

I went to the flyer show and I certainly cant recall any 73 jobs being lined up for people! Plenty of places trying to get you to shell out £££ for type ratings but none offering jobs!

Davey, unless you have it on paper, take it with a pinch of salt! As Bealz says, there is a long way to go before you can in the RHS of a jet. And anyhow why strainght to a jet? Seems that everyone is fixated on flying jets!!
Its good in some respects though, as these types leave open plenbty of gaps for the rest of us, who broaden our horizons!

Expedite :ok:

potkettleblack
13th Nov 2006, 09:07
Gee you guys need to get a grip. One and one doesn't make 3. I can't see anywhere in Davy's post where he said his 737 job was gotten through the flyer exhibition. More likely he was giving some advice to other wannabees about how to improve their networks. Also why assume that he is a low houred wannabee. Perhaps he has thousands of hours through the military and came on here to get some advice as to convert in the civvy world. Perhaps not but in the absence of knowing who he is then why bother heading off in the usual rant like so many of these pprune threads these days.

In my experience it is more common than you think to have a job lined up at the end of your training. At my school I know of three guys that have come from ground positions in their respective companys and have jobs lined up when they have their tickets.

hobbit1983
13th Nov 2006, 12:51
davey147,

Doing pretty much the same route as you - Nr next month, followed by IMCR/hourbuilding/ATPL theory etc, then CPL/ME.

I've decided to do my FI straight after CPL (hours allowing) and then the IR/MCC once I've built up experience.

In theory (!) I'm planning to finance everything up to the IR/MCC without a loan, through work/parents/etc, and then get one once I've gotten more experience in instructing.

Hopefully this should work out so that I'm not repaying the loan for a big chunk of expensive training that I'm not even using whilst I'm instructing PPLs.

Opinions/criticisms (constructive please!) welcome on this route btw. Also - doesn't the IR have to be done within a certain length of time after passing the ATPL theory?

davey147
13th Nov 2006, 17:53
Yes people do jump to conclusions on these forums. I wasnt suggesting that the airlines at the Flyer show give away jobs, but it is an excellent place to network.

Yes you are correct, you should always accept it with a pinch of salt unless you have it on paper. Thats why I do have the offer on paper, now nothing is ever certain e.g. if there is another 9/11 type event, that would change things.

I have to fund upto MCC and the type rating will be bonded to me for 5 years. If I didnt have this offer I would definately go down the FI route, infact I did actually plan on doing this as I would enjoy it.

D'vay
13th Nov 2006, 18:40
Davey,
Well done mate, well done. you'l tend to find that the case here is often "if you don't have anything intelligent to say, say it on the wannabe forum". Don't worry about jealous people, especially those who hold licences already, in my experience, their jealousy is a direct result of not being able to hold a level or a speed. They are the sort of people who know that they will be bottom of the pile and worse still they wouldn't be seen dead in a turbo prop.
Good luck mate, hope to be in your rhs when I get there!
D'vay

davey147
13th Nov 2006, 18:48
Thanks d'vay for the compliment.

Im just a lucky b*stard.

All I can say is stay friends with the people who you do your PPL training with, when they get jobs they can help you get your foot in.

D'vay
13th Nov 2006, 18:56
Anything to help out a fellow Davey, Davey?
I'll get what I'm given i aviation, doesn't mean I won't work my nuts off to get it!
A friend of mine turned down an aerial survey job. He tolld them that he was waiting for a jet operator to come along (he has about 250 hours) bearing in mind the survey operator wouldn't even have bonded him, I can't believe what a twattish decision he made.
He's out temping in an office at the moment when he could be buggering about in chieftans or similar all over the english channel and atlantic coast line!
I could have head-butted some sense in to him if he'd not have told me two weeks after he refused it and had he not have told me over the telephone.
NEVER TURN A JOB DOWN WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ONE!!!!

D'vay

davey147
13th Nov 2006, 19:04
Well alot of heavy jet pilots have said to me that flying gets boring when you stop flying the light aircraft, I dont know whether its true.

I'd like to do a job like aerial photography, it sounds fun.