Class Rating Instructor

[S-Works]

I am doing a CRI course next week and wondered if anyone here had done one. What did they think of it?

[Mark 1]

I did consider this some time ago, but ended up doing the full FI/CPL in my spare time.

The thought was that I could do some of the more interesting stuff like tailwheel conversions, as well as club currency checks and 2 yearly instructor trips.

I should imagine that many clubs would welcome being able to off-load some of this, especially at weekends. I'd be interested to find out how you get on once you've got it.

I find the CRI type instruction to be as enjoyable and rewarding as the ab-initio stuff. It often gives you the chance to fly with, and learn from, some very experienced pilots.

[dublinpilot]

What does a Class Rating Instructor do?

What additional privilidiges does a FI have over a Class Rating Instructor and vice versa?

dp

[S-Works]

I have a done the CPL/IR stuff but did not want to become an FI.

A CRI can't teach ab-initio, night, IMC or IR/CPL but can teach Multi Engine ratings, tailwheel, type conversions, complex conversions, bi annual flight with an instructor, refresher training etc.

We have lots of interesting aircraft at our place that I get to fly and a lot of based aviators who are orphaned from flying clubs so I figured I could do the tailwheel training and renewals etc. There was a lot of enthusiasm for it from our based flyers so I thought I would go for it!

[EGBKFLYER]

Is there any supervisory restriction to begin with like an FI or are you on your own from day 1?

Are you doing it at On-track at Wellesbourne?

[S-Works]

No supervisory restriction as you are not ab initio training. I guess the reason why you have to have so many P1hrs to do the rating and so many hours on each rating you want to teach.

[dublinpilot]

What do you have to do to get the CRI?

What are the hours requirements you speak of?

Sorry to have so many questions, but you are sparking my interest!

dp

[S-Works]

You need 300hrs P1. You need to pass the groundschool and flight training (spin training etc.) you need 30hrs on each rating you want to teach and each type within the rating.

You have to do the CRI (SEP) for SEP and the CRI (MEP) to teach the twin rating. You get credit from the ground school if doing the SEP and the MEP at the same time which is what I am doing.So basically I can run MEP courses and then have an examiner do the test as normal.

[dublinpilot]

Thanks for that Bose. Must appreciated.

It will probably be another year to 18 months before I have the 300 P1. Might be of interest then.

dp

[421C]

I did the CRI-MEPL earlier this year, great course; also for a PPL, since it doesn't need a CPL or CPL theory pass.

I can run MEP courses and then have an examiner do the test as normal.I think training for the MEP Class rating needs to be within an approved FTO. As an "independent" CRI you can only do recurrent and differences training.

rgds
421C

[S-Works]

I did the CRI-MEPL earlier this year, great course; also for a PPL, since it doesn't need a CPL or CPL theory pass.

I think training for the MEP Class rating needs to be within an approved FTO. As an "independent" CRI you can only do recurrent and differences training.

rgds
421C

Yep you are right, but that does not present a problem for my cunning plan....

[421C]

A CRI can't teach ab-initio, night, IMC or IR/CPL

If you are interested in IMC/IR teaching, there is a CRI-like rating for IFR training called the IRI. Like the CRIs, it doesn't require a full FI, just a JAA IR. I don't remember the exact requirements, but they are not huge. I think it's 200hrs of actual IMC or 800hrs under IFR. The training is about 10hrs dual (?). It's interesting because the CRI/IRI route let's you do a lot of advanced training without ever doing the CPL theory or the ab-initio FI training.

[S-Works]

If you are interested in IMC/IR teaching, there is a CRI-like rating for IFR training called the IRI. Like the CRIs, it doesn't require a full FI, just a JAA IR. I don't remember the exact requirements, but they are not huge. I think it's 200hrs of actual IMC or 800hrs under IFR. The training is about 10hrs dual (?). It's interesting because the CRI/IRI route let's you do a lot of advanced training without ever doing the CPL theory or the ab-initio FI training.

Thats exactly the route I want to go! Any details?

[421C]

Sorry, you do need the CPL
The place I did my CRI is BCFT Bournemouth also does the IRI, great school
http://www.bcft.org.uk/flyinginstructorcourseiri.shtml


Pre-entry Requirements

Hold a valid Commercial Licence with a valid Instrument Rating
Have a total of 800 hours flight time in accordance with Instrument Flight Rules
If the recorded flight time is by sole reference to instruments - not just under IFR - then the recorded total may be multiplied by four, so that 200 hours by sole reference to instruments will meet the requirements
Hold a current Medical CertificateTraining Syllabus

The syllabus to be followed is based on JAR FCL 1.

10 hours minimum flight training
45 hours minimum of Ground school charged. 25 hours home study
Pass a skills test with an FIE
Course duration - full time approximately 20 working days - dependent on weatherCourse Prices

Multi-engine a/c10 hours @ £355/hour£3,550.00Ground School45 hours @ £15/hour£675.00

[tescoapp]

You can also teach areo's as well with no further tests :D

Also most plane insurance has added on the bottom to any named pilots.

"And holders of an Instuctors rating"

This is a link to ontrack http://www.ontrackaviation.com/cri-se.htm site. I have no link to them at all.

And http://www.ontrackaviation.com/iri.htm for the IRI apparently they don't require the CPL.

My mate did the CRI SEP course with John, throughly enjoyed it.

[S-Works]

Just verified the IRI does not need a CPL. (Lasors)

I also meet the requirements for it so I guess it has a place in the grand plan.

It is interesting how much can be taught post ab initio by a PPL.

[tescoapp]

I believe that the CRI was abit of a suprise for the CAA.

It came with the introduction of JAR and nobody had much clue about it apart from it had appeared in the grand scheme of things without anyone looking at it.

For what it costs it is a particularly powerful rating.

The renewal requiments are far less than the FI rating (and much cheaper)

And you can gain a CRE ontop of that as well for a considerable sum. So you can sign for ratings as well.

[Mark 1]

The aerobatics bit is a slight oddity.

There is nothing to stop a bare minimum PPL from going out and doing aeros in a suitable machine with no training, as there is no legal requirement for formal training.

Giving instruction, however, is aerial work; so if you don't have an FI or CRI, you are not covered by the exemption to perform aerial work. Further to that, an FI or CRI can't give aerobatic instruction unless the limitation has been removed from their licence.

At what point a bit of informal coaching becomes formal instruction may be up to debate, but the giving of aerobatic instruction formally does require an instructor qualification (unless I'm mistaken).

[tescoapp]

Its a bit of a loophole in the CRI.

There are no restrictions on the license. (there wasn't on the one I looked at)

We were discussing this in the pub after it arrived and it appeared that a CRI can do the IMC approaches and sign for them with no additional training and also train someone at night. They can even sign students out solo as long as the student has previously held a license/ rating.

This is after.
1hr of PFL's
1hr of circuits.
1hr of stalling and steep turns.

All because its not training for a new rating/qualification. It really is in it's current form a very powerful rating. For the price of a FI rating, bose-x in the space of 2 weeks over 2 years depending how much instructing he does could be a CRI/CRE SEP/MEP limited to renewals and revalidations. Sign rating pages and do IMC tests.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_fcl_21_v4.pdf Caa examiner doc

http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/563247.pdf JAR-FCL 1 (watch out its big)

[Whopity]

There are no restrictions on the license.

Except that you can't be remunerated if its a PPL!

[youngskywalker]

...and then you will incur the rath of the hour builder airline pilot wanabee flying instructor who does get paid! :eek:

[S-Works]

...and then you will incur the rath of the hour builder airline pilot wanabee flying instructor who does get paid! :eek:

Ho hum........... And anyway I could get paid if I want to, I just don't want to be an hour building FI or be paid. Mainly because I don't need hours and because I dont want to teach ab initio or work as an FI. I just want to put something back into flying for free.

[rustle]

I dont want to teach ab initio or work as an FI. I just want to put something back into flying for free.

Very commendable. :ok:

[BillieBob]

....but the giving of aerobatic instruction formally does require an instructor qualification (unless I'm mistaken).You are mistaken - an instructional qualification is required only to give instruction for a licence or rating or qualification in the licence (ANO Article 36). Since there is no such thing as an aerobatic rating and no aerobatic qualification can be included in a JAA licence, no instructor qualification is required. Interestingly, the privilege to teach aerobatics is not included in any JAA instructional qualification.

[tescoapp]

I don't think it will bother wannbie FI's.

The one hour with an experenced PPL could either be a great joy if you got on with them or a complete pain in the backside. If they owed there own plane even if you didn't sign thier log book there was nothing stopping them going out and flying 10 mins later.

Its the clubs and schools which will loose quite a bit of revenue.

4 groups of 5 people. 20 Peoples members fee's call it 100 quid per year over 3 years. 30 hours flying at 30 quid an hour in your own aircraft or 130 quid an hour in the schools. 30 * 20 quid for signing the ratings page.


So thats for own plane use

6000
900
600

7.5k for the 3 years the ratings are vaild.

With school plane use an extra 3 k

10.5K

Thats only an extra £3.5 per hour based on 50 hours per year per person

The rating only costs 1500 quid for the CRI and 3000 for the CRE. And if you run the plane as a ltd company it works out even less if you put it through the books. You will proberly save more than that because your insurance will drop because there is an instructor in the group. No overheads of maintaining a building to brief in either. And this doesn't count any tests because some one has forgot and let there SEP lapse.

[G_STRING]

This sounds like the answer to my prayers!

Does anybody know who does the CRI single engine in the UK, and how much it costs?

[Mark 1]

You are mistaken - an instructional qualification is required only to give instruction for a licence or rating or qualification in the licence (ANO Article 36). Since there is no such thing as an aerobatic rating and no aerobatic qualification can be included in a JAA licence, no instructor qualification is required. Interestingly, the privilege to teach aerobatics is not included in any JAA instructional qualification.
But giving instruction is aerial work, so a CPL is required at least.
The exemption that allows a PPL to do aerial work consisting of flight training, is applicable if they hold an instructor's qualification.

[BillieBob]

I never said it wasn't. I was responding to your specific statement (as quoted) regarding the requirement for an instructional qualification in order to teach aerobatics.

[TheOddOne]

This sounds like the answer to my prayers!
Does anybody know who does the CRI single engine in the UK, and how much it costs?

I did mine at The Pilot Centre, Denham with the CFI. A most excellent experience, learned a lot about my own flying, quite apart from the stuff I needed to get my head around. It consisted of 3 hours flying and 25 hours ground studies, which in effect are the 1st 25h of the FI groundschool. I hope they count as a credit on the FI course at a later date. I did my test with the lady from Andrewsfield. This consisted of a long briefing, followed by a flight test which simulated a checkout on a PA28 for someone who had only flown a C150 before (quite a realistic scenario). The course itself was £1,000 and with the test fee and the CAA's fee it all came to £1,500.

I did it originally with the thought in mind of offering checkouts and 2-year flight reviews to members of our group, as we had recently lost one of our instructors.

Actually, I've been mostly engaged flying with fellow group members as a sort of back-up which proved its worth recently.

Like other posters here, I did it as an alternative to the FI, to begin with anyway, as at my stage in life I don't need the hours but I do need another dimension to my flying.

Also, as others have said, it is a most excellent course. It took me 4 days with another 1/2 day for the test.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[S-Works]

But giving instruction is aerial work, so a CPL is required at least.
The exemption that allows a PPL to do aerial work consisting of flight training, is applicable if they hold an instructor's qualification.

its only aerial work if you are paid for it. Free instruction can be done on a PPL and as pointed out aeros are not a qualification so anyone who can fly aeros can teach someone else. Or you could even try and teach yourself as a lot of people have done. I tried it but was never any good. I would take aeros instruction of some of the PPL's on these forums over some instructors any day.

In answer to another question the CRI rating can be done at Ontrack Aviation, Wellesbourne. Cost is for the CRI (SE) is £1500 in the school aircraft and negotiable in your own. I am doing the CRI (SE) in my Cessna and the ME in the Sennecca.

[dublinpilot]

Just to correct a slight error earlier in this thread.

In order to get a CRI(SPA) you need "300 hours flight time as a pilot of aeroplanes" and not 300 hours P1 time.

I'll make that sometime in the coming months :)

[Flyingcircusace]

You are mistaken - an instructional qualification is required only to give instruction for a licence or rating or qualification in the licence (ANO Article 36). Since there is no such thing as an aerobatic rating and no aerobatic qualification can be included in a JAA licence, no instructor qualification is required. Interestingly, the privilege to teach aerobatics is not included in any JAA instructional qualification.
I contacted the CAA re teaching aerobatics, (I am an ATPL and advanced level competitor (Next year ED)) and the reply said I needed to do an FIC course and also another course to remove the aerobatic restriction...
But reading this thread, it seems I can do CRI course, then teach Pitts/Extra conversions, and aeros to qualified pilots????

[bramble001]

I have just sucessfully completed the CRE SEP course at Old Sarum.

The teaching was excellent.

[Mark 1]

I stand corrected. A quick look at the dear old ANO shows that aerial work is only applicable to remunerated flights (Art.157) and an instructor's rating is only required for instructing for licences and ratings (art.36).

But the restriction on my FI(A) says "no aerobatics". Does this mean that, if I hadn't got an FI, that I could teach aerobatics? Or does it mean that I can teach them if not logging the hours P1; effectively as a passenger?

[tescoapp]

I don't think anyone can comment on what you ask Mark.There hasn't been a test case yet.

If nothing goes wrong your in the clear. If something however small goes wrong you are looking at the CAA getting the legals bods out to get you.


Flyingcircusace i wouldn't take anything on this thread as spoke. The caa don't know what they are doing with this rating. Its been forced on them from JAR-FCL 1 the CAA people won't have a clue what your on about and won't have a clue what the FCL really says. You will just get the usuall pish of read lasors. Which i might add will more than likely get updated due to this thread stating say CRI must do xyz can't do XYZ.

It really is a license to do what you want as long as you don't teach for the issue of PPL's or intial ratings. There is no monitoring, no cfi moaning, you are set free after your rating issue.

[IO540]

What an interesting thread. I would have to read it several times to get my head around it though :)

If I understand this correctly, a CRI allows you to instruct, for free, but not for anything towards a PPL or towards an IMCR or IR. All one can do is "personal improvement" stuff. Is that right?

bose-x

I just want to put something back into flying for free

This is very commendable, and I would very much like to do the same. But I know that if I tried that where I am, I would find my tyres let down - that's if I am lucky.... I have to be extremely careful even taking somebody with me who just happens to be a PPL student at a local school.

[BillieBob]

Mark 1 - According to JAR-FCL 1.330, the privileges of an FI(A) are to conduct flight instruction for a PPL(A), CPL(A), night flying, IR(A), single-engine, multi-pilot type or class rating and FI rating (also, in the UK, the IMC rating). None of these courses, not even the FI(A) course, includes aerobatics in the syllabus. Therefore, your FI(A) rating does not include the privilege of conducting aerobatic instruction in the first place, so how can the CAA seek to prevent you from exercising a privilege of the rating that never existed??? The 'no aerobatics' entry in the licence is quite meaningless - you can teach aerobatics without exercising the privileges of your FI(A) rating and, if you are not using the rating, the restriction to it can not apply.

The fact is that instruction in aerobatics is nothing whatever to do with the FI(A), CRI(A) or any other instructional qualification. Anyone with a pilot's licence can conduct aerobatic instruction, although to receive remuneration it must be a professional licence. Bear in mind, Flyingcircusace, that when you call the CAA to ask these questions, provided that you make it through the automated 'system', you will probably be speaking to someone who knows nothing about the subject and is capable only of parrotting the contents of LASORS.

[Flyingcircusace]

I guess the aerobatic FI rating allows you to train and issue the AOPA certificate???

As I understand it......

As a commercial pilot, I can just start teaching aerobatics, for financial reward to qualified pilots. If I do the CRI I can teach tailwheel conversions, again for money. But without a FI rating I cannot take "Trial flights" (Punters for 20 min aero trip)

Flycirc

[tescoapp]

The CRI allows you to instruct. As per FCL-1. Trial flights arn't really trial flights its a set exercise in the PPL course and as such counts towards the issue of a PPL.

The 20mins aero trip to none PPL holders is a bit suspect anyway because the training, which all trial flights are ment to be, isn't towards any known exercise in the PPL. It could be argued then that the flight is then a pleasure flight which will then require an AOC and all the other trimmings of a commercial operation.

The license which it is attached to allows you to charge or not as the case maybe.

There will also be issues with logging the flights as only one person can be PIC and the other can't log dual if tere isn't a Instructor on board of some type.

IO540 its abit more than personal improvment. And your case of the possibilty of getting your tyres let down. Is I suspect a very valid point. A couple of CRI's and a CRE at a large GA field with access to a public cat aircraft have the potential to strip a sizable chunk of the easy money from the local flying school. Especially if the CFI thinks they are the local flying standards police they won't like it at all.

Its actually quite an unfair setup to the school who have to pay for inspections, rent buildings maintain public liability insurance etc

[EvilKitty]

The 20mins aero trip to none PPL holders is a bit suspect anyway because the training, which all trial flights are ment to be, isn't towards any known exercise in the PPL. It could be argued then that the flight is then a pleasure flight which will then require an AOC and all the other trimmings of a commercial operation.


Is there a teaching element to Ex 3, the air experience flight? I thought this was mean to be "sit back, relax, and get used to being in a light aircraft" flight without the pressure of having to learn anything. Playing with the controls optional as thats covered in Ex 4 onwards.

[BEagle]

"The 20mins aero trip to none PPL holders is a bit suspect anyway because the training, which all trial flights are ment to be, isn't towards any known exercise in the PPL."

In the UK, this loophole was closed last year. Trial flights involving aerobatics for non-licence holding pilots shall not be conducted by anyone unless that person holds a FI Rating with the 'no aerobatics' restriction removed. Period.

It is crazy to suggest that someone could be a CRI conducting aerobatic training for years and years, then upgrade to FI only to find that, unless the 'no aerobatics' restriction was deleted, he/she could no longer teach aerobatics!!

There is an initiative to require that anyone teaching aerobatics, whether paid or not, must hold at least a CRI Rating and that he/she has also completed the same training and testing as is required for the removal of the 'no aerobatics' restriction pertaining to FI Ratings. In other words, possess the skill sets relevant to CRI instructing and the teaching of aerobatics. So, no need for CPL or CPL level knowledge if such instruction was given without remuneration. However, to teach/demonstrate aerobatics to non-licence holders, a FI Rating with the 'no aerobatics' restriction would still be needed.

The aims of this are:

1. To ensure that the 'trial flight aeros' brigade are appropriately regulated.
2. To ensure that all aerobatic instruction is given by those who have demonstrated the ability to instruct.

However, when the proposal was put to the CAA, some idiot just answered a different question.....:hmm:

[tescoapp]

So what are the rules then BEagle?

There are still a few folk out there doing aero trips in Pitts to none license holders and to my knowledge the Pitts isn't a public cat aircraft.

They are also not operating through a RFTO or whatever a PPL school needs to have.

And showing my lack of knowledge what are the learning objectives of EX3?
surely its not just sit back and look out the window. I always taught lookout, training area landmarks, the different instruments and there interpretation and it all so exposed them to what the learning enviroment was going to be. And allowed me to work out what my teaching method was going to be with them.

It was about enough for the 30mins its allocated on a first flight. So if you do 1,2,3 together you had just enough time in 1.5 hours. Which was why I always did the ex3 again even if they had taken a lets get a photo of the house trial flight before.

[Fuji Abound]

"There is an initiative to require that anyone teaching aerobatics, whether paid or not, must hold at least a CRI Rating and that he/she has also completed the same training and testing as is required for the removal of the 'no aerobatics' restriction pertaining to FI Ratings."

What is the evidence to support the need for such a change?