Danger Area's, a question?

[pistongone]

I have just been talking to an ex-navy diver in work(oil and gas industry is my business!) and he said there are no marker buoys or any system to mark the boundaries of danger areas over the sea! (I am talking of firing ranges etc, not obstacles like the Montgomery just to the south of Southend) Take the one at Southend(D142 i think, no chart to hand) We have to call up and establish if it is active or not, yet apparently a boat(Gin Palace, Speed or Fishing ) can just merrily sail through and the guns stop till he is clear! Surely he is wrong, can someone say for sure if this is the case?
Any mariners out there? If you think of the other thread on SB and N.I etc, it seems planes have to jump through loads of hoops, whereas our seafairing brothers quite simply don't, infact it appears they can do pretty much as they like! Thoughts Gentlemen please!

[Windy Militant]

Codswallop! to use the Nautical venacular.
Any area designated as a danger area is usually covered by local by laws. These are posted in local papers harbourmasters offices etc etc. These are enforced by range support vessels also I believe there was an informal agreement between the Castlemartin range with the guys from Brawdy who would mooch out beat up the offender whilst taking a few snaps for evidence.
A number of old salty dogs have been hauled in front of the beak and keel hauled, well at least fined heavily. Used to pop up regularly in the Tivyside Advertiser and Western Telegraph usually between the GBH and Driving offences in the court reports. The main culprits were usually Spanish Fishingboats allegedly.
I believe that repeat offenders had their watch keepers ticket removed.

[pistongone]

Thanks Windy,
It sounded a bit far fetched, but i wanted to make sure before i tell him i think its a load of wallop of the cod! Makes you wonder at his credentials to be doing his job! Emmmmm?

[pulse1]

When it is active, D026 (Lulworth) is patrolled by two boats keeping away the gin palaces. There are no marker buoys though.

[denhamflyer]

As an owner of an alleged gin palace I can confirm they do indeed exist and they are covered under the notice to mariners (very rarely read by recreational mariners) AND more importantly you are expected to call them up on radio if going near them - marked on charts.

It IS true that if you dont contact them and they fail to contact you they WILL stop firing - and they get rather p.ss.d. They will often have many patrol vessels around an active danger area.

It is just like flying, they get there fair share of "busts" and are more active in alerting you by radio or patrol vessel. Many coastal mariners (=local bimbler) will often not even have charts :sad:

I was once called up by them 5nm outside their area just in case I got too close - they were very nice about it, and in fact once they found out my destination (the other side of them) they allowed me to route straight thru (i think they wanted lunch)!

Places like lulworth cove can get very busy with visting vessels and the patrol boats can be kept very active.

An interesting point is that most radio equipped boats listen out on a common frequency (ch 16) so can easily be addressed when going near a zone - not quite so easy given the frequencies used on a plane.

Another interesting point is that there seems to be little sanction since most recreational mariners dont have a license to loose. I witnessed a vessel going withing 10 metres of a submarine (near plymouth exercises) - a very illegal moving danger zone - they attempted to radio him , got very aggressive because he did not reply they then submerged to avoid any conflict - he heard nothing more (so he says).

Remember most boats can typically do < 40kts (sailors < 10kts) and radar works well on the sea - so they get plenty of notice.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I've just checked with S&MO who lay the buoys and not all danger areas are marked. Fixed firing ranges are marked at their extremities. Mariners and aviators are expected to avoid them by reference to the relevant chart and activity is notified by NOTAM. Be clear that danger areas are not prohibited areas. If an aeroplane or vessel is damaged in a danger area, it is the Captain's responsibility. The Service involved, though, would probably suspend operations under its duty of care and attempt to notify the "infringer" of the peril it was in. A range safety launch, where we still have them, is not a police service. How one stands legally with regard to placing an aircraft or vessel in danger, particularly if carrying passengers, is another matter altogether.

[airborne_artist]

I served in the RN and can confirm that the marine ranges were frequently busted by amateurs and pros alike. The problem is that we could rarely get close enough to get a vessel name, and even if we did, the nausea of reporting the vessel was too great. End result, stop firing, wait til they clear, and carry on.

I guess it's much easier to track and ID a light aircraft, and then go for the commander - the CAA probably is rather better at prosecuting than the Coastguard.

[VP8]

I used to work at Cowden Air Weapons Range in the early 80's. One of the bains of our life was the crabbers who would transit through the range with little regard for themselves as they knew we would cease fire on their entry.

You would call them up on channel 16 as it was the usual suspects everytime. and they would say just transitting and then procede to pick up a line of pots!!

We lost a lot of hours during the crab season and we didn't have a patrol boat to deter them either.

VEEPS

[Martin @ EGLK]

Things also stop for us. Well occasionally anyway.

I was once flying N of one of the Salisbury Plains ranges when an irate controller had a pop at a pilot flying low over an active range. I can't remember the wording but it was on the lines of:

Climb immediately to the north - they've ceased firing for you! Min 5000'

[Windy Militant]

Possibly I gave the impression that the SBS would immediatly leap upon the miscreants with cutlasses between their teeth! Things were a bit more restrained than that.

However there have been occasions when examples were made after a number of trials were halted at great expense to the taxpayer by incursions into the danger area.

[Ni Thomas]

Having ploughed the oggin for nigh on 40 years in ships ranging from 4000dwt up to 500,000 tdwt ones, one does tend to lean away from getting too close to notified danger areas. Part of ones survival technique is to avoid danger areas when live firing is taking place especially when carrying umpteen millions of gallons of crude oil! Belive you me it can spoil your day. :eek:
My experiences would advise that, in civilised countries, whenever and wherever a marine designated danger area is going to be active a NAV Warning is issued (In effect a NOTAM). Usually one or two small boats (destroyer, range support, paddle or whatever) are deployed to patrol the area, land based radars squint out to see what's there and a nice man or lady chats to potential miscreants on Channel 16. :=
The less civilised areas just fire and you hope they miss. :rolleyes:
Many is the tiime I've come out of Milford Haven to be warned of dangerous goings on in the nearby ranges. Nice blokes but what a boring job!
For those travelling along the Jurassic coast betwixt Portland and St.Alban's Head you may espy the radar scanners right on the edge of the cliffs (if they are whizzing around, it's a good indication that perhaps you shouldn't be there - that and the odd splash, the occasional whiff of spent cordite and whistling noises ) :ooh:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Pistongone's original question was are Danger areas marked. The answer is that they are on a Nav chart but not always on the surface. Are you feeling lucky?

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Funny that, leaving the Humber estuary, there is a range to the south, Donna Nook, clearly marked on charts and bounded by DZ bouys.
Contact frequency also provided.
I thought this was the norm.

[denhamflyer]

I wish...:mad:

Very few area's I encountered had markers. Occasionally they would spring up and then be gone within a couple of season's. Around France its even harder to spot them amonst all the pot markers. Fisherman seem to treat Danger areas as their protected grounds.

But then I often had a chart plotter (GPS moving map) and would be very clear of the boundaries. (But then I might be re-opening the DR vs GPS debate...)

[Maxflyer]

There are only two types of seagoing vessel - Boats and targets.

Beware the former.

[VP8]

In addition to my last Cowden also has boundary marker buoys set but were usually ignored by the fishy types..........

VEEPS