Jobs for rated pilots with 0h on type? [Archive]

Fuel Crossfeed

21st Apr 2006, 09:03

Its a brave man/woman who pays for a type rating without the gaurantee of a job at the end of it!!
Who was the TRTO you did your rating through do they not have any influence with any airlines who operate your type? Maybe send your cv to some of the agencies like Parc.
Keep sending out the cv's to everybody would be my advise and keep building hours some how.

badgerpuppy

21st Apr 2006, 23:53

hope you bought a non airline type rating so it will actually make a financial difference to the potential operators, who won't get all political and emotional about self sposored typed guys and it will only have cost you 7 or 8 grand not 30?

BongleBear

22nd Apr 2006, 07:50

well ive been offered a job with an airline but have to pay for my own tr, but knowing that people are waiting upto a year to get the contract once type rated- i wouldnt mind keeping my options open. cheers bbear

Superpilot

22nd Apr 2006, 07:55

BongleBear,

You're in arguably one of the better positions. If you went the Modular route then you are better of than most!

Congratulations by the way.

BongleBear

23rd Apr 2006, 13:15

thanks mate, i'm just thinking that once i've got through type rating, if i'm made to wait then i may aswell use the advantage that i'm not bonded and seek work elsewhere. any ideas who to try with a 737-800 type rating?? cheers again, bbear

Fair_Weather_Flyer

23rd Apr 2006, 19:10

If you might have to wait a year to start work, be careful. The company might not base check you until they are ready to employ you. This way, in effect you are not rated and thus not employable by other operators. This is how a certain Irish airline are playing it!

BongleBear

24th Apr 2006, 12:28

how am i not employable by any other airline? i wont be bonded and if i dont sign a contract until they are ready to employ me then im not tied down.

no sponsor

24th Apr 2006, 12:33

You can only put the rating on your licence once you have done the base check: six take off and landings in the actual aircraft. This is how it works in JAA land.

So if you did the course, passed the exam in the sim, but have not done the base check, you don't have the rating.

Superpilot

24th Apr 2006, 15:59

Yes, he's right, take note BB.

However, does anyone know if it's possible to do the base training elsewhere?

Say you had a major falling out with your TR provider, or they went bust, and you found another TR company who could provide you with just the base training. Would that be acceptable to JAA? Apologies if I'm displaying my ignorance re: how it all works.

Fellow Aviator

24th Apr 2006, 16:15

I've always thought that you have to complete your type course in six months from commencing training, JAR FCL 1.240(3). Suppose then that the touch n' go's and base check are not part of the course? I'm just wondering how can the time between sim and base check be over an year...

no sponsor

24th Apr 2006, 16:51

You do. Beyond six months, you'll have to have another session in the sim with the examiner.

Fair_Weather_Flyer

24th Apr 2006, 17:14

Sure, you can do the base check somewhere else; going rate is about £5000. Not sure if Ryanair would be impressed. Reading the thread on new joiners some months ago put me right off even applying for this mob. I can't believe that anyone would accept an RYR, offer of employment without reading it!

Jetavia

24th Apr 2006, 20:36

You can do a basecheck with Sterling in Copenhagen for 5000 euro. You just need to call them and ask to speak with the Sterling Blue flight training department. Really nice people there too.

TheFlyguy

5th Nov 2006, 19:31

We are a bunch of low houred pilots, (250-1000h TT) with a B737 type rating (but no hours on type), looking to get hired. Some of us has passed the AirBaltic interview (they are hiring now!) and are now in standby regime with them, but most of us are still looking. Any suggestions?:)

G-Dawg

6th Nov 2006, 20:19

I can honestly say that without time on type your pissing into the wind, sorry to be so blunt!!! If you've got a sniff of a job on the guppy take it, get some experience and the world will open up for you. I speak from painfull experience.

Addy

7th Nov 2006, 09:13

I believe there are quite a couple of TRTOs who are more than helpful after doing a tr with them, and who actually do get people jobs with 0 hours..
by the way g-dawg, whom did you do your tr with?

G-Dawg

7th Nov 2006, 16:32

Addy you are of course correct there is one particular company that do have a good track record of placing newly qualified guys or gals, as long as you did there training. My response was aimed at someone who already has a type rating and as most would agree it is extremely difficult to get anything with just a type rating. There are the lucky few of course but I'm talking in generalities.

Hope this is of help.

David_Lid Air

10th Nov 2006, 17:14

So how much time do you need to have on type to get a job on the 737?

dartagnan

10th Nov 2006, 20:49

So how much time do you need to have on type to get a job on the 737?

the main question is not how many hours you need to get a job, but will you get a job?.
and anyway, you need a job to get the hours...and you need hours to get a job (the usual catch 22)

Captain Airclues

11th Nov 2006, 09:18

-8AS

I'm not sure that the information that you gave is correct. Perhaps you should check the date of your copy of JAR-FCL?

The ten sectors on type can be replaced by a flight with an examiner. This can be done on the simulator as part of the LPC.

If the rating has expired by less than 5 years then the CAA require no mandatory training prior to the LPC. Applicants should complete training at their own discretion. If the rating has expired by more than 5 years then the ground exams must be repeated, but the training required prior to the LST is at the discretion of the TRTO. Base training is not required so long as the training is ZFT approved.

4000 euro seems a little steep for a sim session? Are you sure?

Airclues

David_Lid Air

11th Nov 2006, 10:04

the main question is not how many hours you need to get a job, but will you get a job?.
and anyway, you need a job to get the hours...and you need hours to get a job (the usual catch 22)

That is why it is so hard to sleep at night :hmm: .. It seems like all companies are looking for either experienced pilots or those with rating, I don´t know how many times I have heard "come back when you have a rating" :rolleyes: .. Actually I dont know if I have the money for a rating, especially not without knowing if it will give me a job afterwards.

But if there is no other way in, i´ll guess that I have no other choice than to run for a rating :yuk: .. After all, my hours doesn´t multiply by themselves:}

avrodamo

13th Nov 2006, 08:04

After I had paid for my TR on the 737, I was lucky enough to find a job assisted by my training provider. Our course was due to go to an operator straight from TR, who changed their mind due to a lack of experience on type. As you can imagine, none of us were too happy about this. It took 6 months to get a job after that. Throughout that time we never fully understood the delay, and that is particularly with reference to experience on type.
It is only now, as I come to the end of my line training, that I can really appreciate why airlines seek the experience. Training a zero hour on type pilot to fly the 'line' is a huge under taking. The training requirements and logistics of providing trainers are massive. Your actual ability and the near vertical learning curve is even more demanding. It makes the TR seem like a walk in the park. It is fantastic; you are out there doing the job you have trained for, but there is just so much more to it that I could have ever imagined, and that you could not have trained for. It really is down to experience. I can also see now why it is a real gamble for operators, and why they have, in certain cases, such rigorous selection processes.
There are of course operators who will take the new TR pilot and train them. I am fortunate enough to be with one of them, but they are few and far between.
It is definitely something you should be considering when considering a SSTR.
:ok:

low n' slow

13th Nov 2006, 09:06

David_Lid Air

13th Nov 2006, 10:01

David!
If that's your view, I'm having a hard time you've done your research properly. There's a lot happening in Sweden right now and with 500 hr + you should be able to get a job without a rating.
At the moment there is another way to do it than simply running for a typerating. Get stuck into researching the Swedish airlines a bit closer and you shall find...
Some might require you to pay a small amount but this will most likely also be connected to a job guarantee.
/LnS

But I only have 230hrs :) .. I have been calling, visiting and such.

But I do have a opening now, lets see how the tests work out. Wish me luck on Sunday :)

It may have sounded that I have been given up, but that is not the case. Its just that I need a job so that my economy gets a little better ;).

I will get that job, sooner or later.

FO JimmieJames

19th Nov 2006, 16:26

Thought I would put my bit in, with regard to the original question on this forum.
Loads of people are sceptical about doing a SSTR without job guarantee. I understand this fully, it is a gamble. However it is quite evident that doing a SSTR boosts your chances of getting a job considerably. My opinion is it does pay, especially if you are modular like myself and have spent a lot of time going in circles, sending applications left, right and centre and 90% of the time, never even receiving a reply. I am starting an A320 type rating this week, and my hopes are high. I am also glad to be doing it with a company which has a proven track record of getting their trainees a placement. What also drew me to them was they did a full assessment. Watch out for organisations that just accept you money without doing an airline assessment. . . they are normally after your dosh and your chances of them helping you out once the course is complete is slim. It is worth paying a little more and doing it somewhere with a good reputation and which has good airline partners. At the end of the day it is an investment, so invest wisely.

Pilot Pete

19th Nov 2006, 21:46

However it is quite evident that doing a SSTR boosts your chances of getting a job considerably. Sorry Jimmie, what makes it 'quite evident'? We all know pilots who have gone this route and secured a job because they are happy to talk about it, but how many do you know who have NOT got a job after the massive outlay? They aren't so willing to post on a public forum because obviously their decision hasn't worked out to be the best one they have ever made, but trust me the DO exist. I know a few. I understand your willingness to believe that it is 'quite evident' because you are just about to take the plunge yourself, but could you please show us the evidence to convince the sceptics amongst us?

Good luck anyhow.

PP

scroggs

20th Nov 2006, 06:59

Watch out for organisations that just accept you money without doing an airline assessment. . . they are normally after your dosh and your chances of them helping you out once the course is complete is slim.

They are a company. They exist to make money. That's what they do - all of them, whether they do an assessment or not. They aren't there out of a sense of charity or a vocational urge to help people get into the business! Remember that when you're shelling out your - or your bank's - money.

Scroggs

Shock Wave

4th Dec 2006, 13:57

Anyone out there got a job having a B757/767 type rating and no hours on type?

I would like to know more about the job market in europe and asia on this type of aircraft.

I would appreciate comments as well from collegues already flying that could help any wannabe.

Thanks

4Screwaircrew

4th Dec 2006, 15:54

Jet2 at Leeds are training low time pilots on the 757, it may be worth sending your CV and a letter to Nick Hayter.

If you are still just considering the type rating and not qualified the company runs a SSTR scheme, this may be a better bet than just doing the TR. If you are rated then it's as good a chance as any.

Best of luck

CAT3C AUTOLAND

4th Dec 2006, 16:17

Also try Excel and DHL, a friend of mine recently got interviewed by both with no hours on type, along with Jet2.

All the best.

slow&low

4th Dec 2006, 20:54

-8AS

Base training is not required so long as the training is ZFT approved.

Are you sure about that ? I read somewhere (?????????) that ZFT approved training is not available to all...only to people with jet experience...
is that correct?

Cheers

S

Captain Airclues

4th Dec 2006, 21:12

slow&low

I was replying to a post by -8AS (which has been deleted) in which he/she stated that if a type rating is allowed to expire then base training is required to renew it. He/She also gave incorrect info about the renewal requirements. If you have a an expired type rating (presumably having done base training to obtain it) then it can be renewed on a ZFT simulator.

Airclues

slow&low

5th Dec 2006, 01:00

OK... I guess I was just missing the deleated post then!

Cheers:)

S

SinBin

5th Dec 2006, 12:59

Forgetting the cost for a bit.;)

I recently went for an assessment with a SSTR provider for an A320 rating that gives you 150 hours on type with a charter airline, with a small chance of a job at the end of it. Now I believe this is a clear benefit over 0 hrs on type, and if you've got the cash, why not. It's fractionally more expensive than other schemes, but I think worth it as the pay differences between TP and Jet carrier per annum over 2 years would pay for itself. My view on the matter.

Any thoughts

SB

unimuts

5th Dec 2006, 14:00

Interesting that some are struggling to gain employment with 0 hrs on type. I wonder how useful it would be if you offered to work for free ? I mean get the hours working for free then move on !! :ok:

I used to be in a company that did just that, took on a guy working for free, he got said hours and then moved on...

just a thought as the market seems so tough to get into.

zerograv

5th Dec 2006, 16:43

FO J James
Best of luck with your type rating training!
Maybe you'll get a job right after training and prove us wrong,
but reading your post leads me to believe that your assumptions
do not quite match the reality (unless you'll be doing one of those
rating + line experience packages).

Pilot Pete
As always, could not be more correct in what he mentions in his
post.
I am one of those persons with an A320 type rating that doesn't
like to talk about my lack of success in obtaining a job. I have had
the thing for more than two years and not even mentioning in the
CVs I sent, an useful experience of nearly 400 hrs on type as
"Observer" with an operator that recently went bust, and during
which preflight preparations, comms and the filling of paperwork
tended to be left to be done by myself, has helped towards that
first allusive opportunity.
I know people that in the recent past managed to secure their
first opportunity, after having the rating for more than a year,
and naturally, I also know a few people like myself .... still looking.

Best of luck,
Zerograv

class a

5th Dec 2006, 17:00

low n' slow

5th Dec 2006, 17:17

Sin Bin
I take it you are talking about the My Travel scheme I was also invited to pay for there Sim check and Interview then pay them over 30k for a Type rating I was considering this until I spoke to a friend who is a Capt with them and he said nobody has been kept on after the type rating sounds like another money grabbing scheme to me.
Why should they keep you on when they have a line of people ready to shell out in excess of 30k they are making a packet
Just my opinion maybe Im wrong If you do go for it good luck

This is exactly the point I like to make for people not only buying the TR but also a "Line Training package deal". I bought my TR but I had a job guarantee and I have now repaid my costs after only 6 months.
But with a deal like this, the company is simply asking the candidate to pay more than the PAX for each flight and also to do the job whilst going there. The general rule of thumb should be that behind the door, you pay to fly. In front of the door you GET paid to fly. It really sounds like a "Homer Simpson make-money-fast-scheme" that actually worked.... And when the candidate is "spent", they'll just grab a fresh one and do it all over again.

/LnS

SinBin

6th Dec 2006, 08:48

Thanks, but I think you're both missing my point! I was told, there is no guarantee, however, I would have 150 hours on type which surely would make me attractive to other A320 operators in the UK.

Can I have some qualified responses rather than speculation, and I'm not sure what you mean by 'Homer Simpson make money scheme', it is a scheme run by Alteon, who are a TR training provider like GECAT, they happen to use MYT as a base for training. Therefore I know the risks, but when I finish, there is a chance of employment with MYT, Alteon help place people with airlines for interview and so do Sigmar, who ran the selection. If nothing else too the selection process was rigourous and good practice for other outfits.

Perhaps someone who went on this scheme last year could answer; no that's right they're probably too busy working!

caramel

6th Dec 2006, 13:42

Its natural after investing so much money that you'll look at the positives side of investing £32k but the bottom line is most of newly qualified pilot don't have that much money to invest and like a current ryan air thread that if airline see these type of schemes they will implement them to save money.

The Mytravel scheme was £40kplus last year I don't know how successful it was in terms of pilots getting jobs, but after a few months and 150hrs online you will be very employable. Will you get taken on by Mytravel Very probably not they are running this scheme all summer so basically they are saving paying 4 FO which for a summer will work out about £80k the whole point of running the scheme.

After talking to a few people in the states the majority of airline will pay for your rating it seems like we're shooting ourselves in the foot by trying to get the first job at NO COST EXPARED.

It'll only stop when we stop let the likes of ryanair have no one applying for them so they have to pay for your training they need 400ish pilots who most are happy to pay £18+ to work for them, would MOL be laughing when he has all these shiny jets and no crew to fly them??? maybe then he'll start treating staff the way all humans should be treated

Peace out

dartagnan

6th Dec 2006, 14:18

would MOL be laughing when he has all these shiny jets and no crew to fly them???
Peace out

keep dreaming, you will be dead before this day comes!

SinBin

6th Dec 2006, 15:42

Yet another useful post from Dartagnan! :ugh:

FunFlyin

6th Dec 2006, 15:57

Except this time he makes a very valid point

Because of people willing to self fund their type ratings and training etc. Or to put themselves into a further negative position financially after undertaking their training, the likes of Ryanair will never be short of pilots.

While there is always a lot of talk of standing up against schemes like this etc even if 90% of people did. There would still be 10% of people waving their wallets in the hope it will help them get that first job.

Obviously - otherwise the self sponsored type rating and line training situation would never have come about

SinBin

6th Dec 2006, 20:02

True, believe me, I wish we lived in a world where we wouldn't have to pay of TRs.

It seems the only way to jets now for low houred folks and if that means paying for it so be it. Market forces! Unfortunately whilst we live in a strong economy this will continue, am I gonna wait for for the economic climate to change, hell no!! We'll be here all night!

FunFlyin

7th Dec 2006, 11:18

Megaton

7th Dec 2006, 11:25

Funflyin,

BA's experience is that low hrs guys/gals have no problems flying jets. If one wished to, you coud extend your argument to say that integrated pilots shouldn't be allowed near aircraft due to their low hrs/experience and lack of genuine decision-making through their integrated course. Now these aren't m arguments, of course, and I think both points of view are equally invalid!

papazulu

7th Dec 2006, 11:29

this whole jet thing amazes me

Personally i want to see the EU find itself in a similar hiring position to the States.

You get your licence, become an instructor. You gain some hours and get a regional job. Then you move on slowly progressing.

Gain some valuable experience and stop trying to run before you can walk. You have a commercial licence, that doesnt entitle people to fly jets. It allows them to be paid to work. And last time i checked that included Para dropping, aerial photography etc

Jets for low houred folk should be a no no :p

Totally agree but...have a look around and you'll become aware of the "save on basic training, invest on a TR2 policy that some wannabes have adopted. Being a FI, doing AW seems to be a third world choice for the aviation market! US culture is, aviationwise, ages ahead of EU: there is no way that you can step into a widebody deck on 250 hrs TT, yet EU CAAs look at FAA as eaygoing organizations and though they have got the best of FAR and improved making the JAA joke.IMHO it turned out just to be a lot more complicated...

See what happens

PZ :ok:

FunFlyin

7th Dec 2006, 17:23

My post wasnt meant to be an attack on anyone. BA, low houred integrated or modular pilots etc. :)

What i was trying to illustrate (none to successfully) is that the pilots in FAA land know what their career path is going to look like and its accepted.
Over this side of the pond there isnt quite that structure (for a number of reasons) so you end up with the situation where people feel the only way they can exercise the privelages of their commercial licence is to find a jet job straight away. :suspect: And a lot of them feel very hard done to when this isnt the situation. :rolleyes:

The self sponsored type rating market was always going to come along. But the lack of structure over here has led to a sharp increase in this because people are so eager to get onto a jet they dont think. ;)

SinBin

11th Dec 2006, 12:17

Ok guys, my view on my personal situation.

I have succeeded on getting a place on a jet SSTR, followed by line training with a reputable airline. I pay/invest £30k to a training provider and get out of it 150 hours on type flying Geordies on holiday (they're lovely people by the way)! Having spoken to various captains etc. the overall impression is that this is likely to work in my favour. Incidentally I'm a modular guy who worked full time during training and I have no debt. I'm 30 years old and my wife is broody. This is likely to pull my career forward by 3 years with higher potential earnings earlier than from a turboprop operator, especially with companies like Flybe (£23K pa for a new FO). Time to command on a jet is likely to be brought forward too. Now, I know I must be a crazy SOB and I know many of you hate the fact that people buy TRs, but for the sake of my life and that of my wife and potential family, I think it's a worthwhile investment. There is also a very possible chance of a job at the end with this jet carrier. C'est la vie, as they say! And I don't want to be waiting around for another year!

CPL_Ace

11th Dec 2006, 12:44

I suspect that the money involved in the states is a little less. There is a lot of pressure for us self funded guys. Myself and Sin Bin are in the same boat with age, marriage etc. To survive on a FI wage for 2 years would put a lot of pressure on us financially particularly since we've already subjected our spouses to this! Managing their expectations against our former life and income is a frightening ordeal.

Perhaps the smart thing to do would have been to do this a tad earlier when the stakes were a little lower. But then we didn't have the cash then! I'm now in the dangerous "Deal or No deal" position with the rare jobs coming my way. The quarter Million is still in play and much needed but so are a lot of the blue boxes! (sorry to use a UK analogy).

Mexis

11th Dec 2006, 12:52

Actually 1 hr on type...

JAA CPL(A)
ATR42/72 type rating current until April 2007 - qualified on ALL variants.
Available immediately, ready to relocate.

Experience in writing operational documentation for airlines, including ATR operators.
Experience in purchasing of ATR spare parts.
Experience as a Flight Dispatcher.

French and British citizenships & passports.
Language skills:
- English: fluent.
- French: native speaker.
- German: conversational+.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you hear of an opportunity.

Thanks for your help,

Vincent
www.geocities.com/vincent.mexis (http://www.geocities.com/vincent.mexis)

class a

11th Dec 2006, 15:27

It appears to me that you seem think there is a Job waiting out there for you when you finish the rating as you will have a 150hrs on type there are plenty of people out there with 10 times that who are out of work and I will say it again these people are in the business of selling type ratings nothing more they will allways tell you the positives (chance of a job etc at the end) and not the negatives

Why not ask them for a list of how many people who have done this have actually got kept on and ask to speak to them they should have nothing to hide if they are a reputable company

Maybe im getting old but being in business myself most people will tell you what you want to hear if you are handing over that sort of money.

Of course if you do get a Gurantee of a job thats a different story

Good luck whatever you decide i hope it all works out for you

FunFlyin

12th Dec 2006, 13:23

Possibly the big question that needs answering though is how will you be looked at after the line training.

I'm guessing you will still be sub 500 hours which in a lot of places is low houred - but more importantly will they look at you much differently to someone who is just out of training

As arguably that is the situation you are in. Finished your CPL/ME IR and gone to another training provider for more training.

Except i can imagine the uproar if Oxford started providing all of this :rolleyes:

I would like to add though - good luck to you and i hope it works and keeps the wife more bearable ;)

With an edit added to say whichever way it goes it would be nice if you hang around to keep people up to date on your situation should they be considering this scheme next year. As none of last years chaps seem to be about

SinBin

12th Dec 2006, 13:56

This will put me in the 500 hour+ market, and I will try to keep a diary on this forum, not this thread obviously. Scroggs et al, when/if I decide to go for this SSTR I will put this in a diary, any chance of a sticky if/when the time comes?

I think it would be a useful thread for most wannabies nowadays, as most may have to pay for their own type ratings.

It's scary as hell, and I am going into it with my eyes wide open, contingency plans all round and the risks have been spelt out to me by the TRTO many times! There has never been any guarantee with any of it up to now, so why would a SSTR make any difference, all I do know it would make me a much more attractive option than I currently am. Sigmar are also actively looking for opportunities at this minute for when the training finishes. Also it's not like I've just approached someone with lots of money, I had to go through a very rigourous selection procedure, listen to all the hype, although I have to say there hasn't been any really and then decide what the hell to do! I am certainly not naive and if i do this, it will be for my own personal reasons and nout else, using it to network, and make friends in high places!

Peelay

12th Dec 2006, 14:26

can you not try bribing the chief pilots to give you a job instead ?

FunFlyin

12th Dec 2006, 14:40

SinBin

It will be very useful and good to see if you manage it.

I wish you the best whatever happens but lets not let this debate die :)

CPL_Ace

12th Dec 2006, 15:27

At very least, it shows that you are staying current with active and useful flying. Ten times better than hiring out the local winged shed and flying down to Stone Henge once a week. That might be worth it's weight to any recruiter even if it doesn't come direct from your TR provider.

Best of Luck

nuclear weapon

14th Dec 2006, 20:58

This is directed at those who did a speculative type rating without the guarantee of a job at the end. How long did it take you to get a job i.e 0-100 hours on type. Please gecat and parc students exempt from this poll.

SinBin

15th Dec 2006, 13:51

May I ask why GECAT and PARC students are excempt?

nuclear weapon

15th Dec 2006, 14:03

They are exempt becauce they tend to place most of thier students with airlines. I am talking of a lot of pilots on these forums who went to other places to do thier type rating like astreus 25hrs/50hr/100hr without the promise of a job. I know a couple of guys who did it with them but were taken on permanently thats becauce it happened when they were looking for pilots.

I also have a friend who just finished with gecat he's currently with air malta. Before he finished he and the other student were offered easyjet placements for january but they had the luxury of picking a different airline. Gecat selection process is very thorough so a lot of the main airlines tend to trust them.

I really mean places whre you basically just shell out your life savings and they give you the rating to go and fend for yourself.

High Wing Drifter

15th Dec 2006, 14:34

They are exempt becauce they tend to place most of thier students with airlines.
Could that not be an example PPRuNE induced received wisdom?

CaptYanknBank

19th Dec 2006, 22:40

Just under a month........

I'm happy.....:ok:

dartagnan

20th Dec 2006, 16:16

2(low hours) guys emailed me with 737 t-r, no job for both but they stay focused and positive.

I got 2 jobs offer if I pay for my type.
another guy (low hour)got a job promess if he pays for his type.

so no need to pay for a rating without a job promess.
go with CTC or CAE...:ok: