EGLL very short finals in the 80s ?

[trident3A]

I used live in South west Ealing in the 80s, quite near the M4 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=w13+9uz&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=13&ll=51.491538,-0.3792&spn=0.075138,0.21698&iwloc=addr. Normally when on Westerlies landing aircraft would pass to the south (or sometimes the North when rnwy 23 was in use). Very occasionally aircraft would pass almost overhead heading SW onto what must have been a very short final, I've not seen this happens for years. I was just wondering if anyone knows in what circumstances this used happen?

[TopBunk]

I would guess that they would have been aircraft given a visual approch to 27R[28R as was]. It does still happen, but less frequently (or should I say more rarely) with the increase in traffic volumes.

In my 17 years operating in/out of LHR for a large local carrier, I have received about 8 or 9 visual approaches, or about 1 per 2 years.

[GBALU53]

In the late was flying a Piper Aztec on to 27L was asked to keep the speed uo as long as possible 170 knots to final which i did but as the speed needed to come of inside two miles was asked by A.T.C. as something was catching us up, do i have 27R insight yes will you position onto 27R, yes we were in a light twin but doing this we must have been turning on final over the Engineering complex.

All in a days work

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

If I interpret your location correctly traffic heading south over you would turn in for a 4-5 mile final, which isn't desperately tight for smaller aircraft. As has been suggested, you probably saw aircraft on visual approaches where the turn on is entirely at the pilot's discretion - and some could really turn in tight!!

Way back in the Golden Days a Heathrow controller bet a Viscount pilot coming in via Watford that he couldn't land on 28R without receiving the ILS Middle Marker (which was about 1.5 miles out I recall). The pilot accepted the challenge..... and the controller had to get his wallet out later!

[trident3A]

Thanks for the reponses, that makes sense now :)

[TopBunk]

Way back in the Golden Days a Heathrow controller bet a Viscount pilot coming in via Watford that he couldn't land on 28R without receiving the ILS Middle Marker (which was about 1.5 miles out I recall). The pilot accepted the challenge..... and the controller had to get his wallet out later!


From my notes (unread for the last xx years!), the MM is at about 1.5km from the threshold, not 1.5NM. That would make it at about the Cat 1 DH of about 200ft or so, which makes sense. I suspect on that basis that the controller was conned to open his wallet:) :) :)

I remember being told that the aural sounds of the markers reflected your heart beat, ie OM = dash...dash...dash (slow), MM= dot . dash..dot..dash (pretty quick), IM = dot,dot.dot.dot (bl00dy quick), ie the cclser to the threshold without visual reference the faster it became.:eek:

[Duckbutt]

Funnily enough Mr Trident until the mid 60's I lived in a house approx 200 yds away from the location you pinpoint on the map. As an adolescent I used to take an interest in the aircraft movements at Heathrow but can only ever recall one occasion when a BOAC Britannia flew almost directly over my house whilst heading for the airport.

On the other hand when aircraft were taking off in an Easterly direction, presumably from 09L, a high proportion did pass almost directly overhead as they climbed out - me and friends often used to sit in our garden with cheap binoculars noting the registrations off the undersides of the wings.

[WHBM]

About 10-15 years ago there was a mail plane operation with a British Midland (as they were then) 737 from Edinburgh into LHR which arrived about 00.30 Local, when there was nothing else about. I noticed this arriving a few times from the M4 motorway when heading back into London at that time, more often than not because they seemed to be doing the equivalent of what a PPL would call a Bad Weather Circuit, curving round onto 27R surprisingly close to the markers. In fact you had to look for a few seconds to determine if they headed for 23 or 27R.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

WHBM.. Not wishing to question you, but I would be astounded if that was true. Firstly, I'm not aware of any BM mail flights arriving at 00.30 - well outside the night curfew. Secondly, noise abatement rules, which have been in force for considerably longer than 10-15 years, required aircraft landing at that time to be established in the ILS no closer than 10miles out. Tight-in visual approaches in the middle of the night didn't happen...

There was certainly a very late BM flight from Edinburgh, but this landed around 11pm. I was told that this was often empty but used simply to keep a BM slot occupied...

If someone proves I'm talking tosh I'll withdraw gracefully!

[WHBM]

HD :

There were nightly BM mail flights on Heathrow to Edinburgh, they were non-pax and departed each end at about 23.30. They provided one extra sector at the end of the day for the two LHR-EDI aircraft. They were actually charters by Royal Mail and had flight numbers in the BMA charter flight series, not regular numbers for the Edinburgh service. I'm not certain if the night landing slot came from a Post Office allocation rather than a BMI one.

The aircraft were not convertible as such for the mail run but there were custom-made kits that fitted over the seats that the mail pouches were put into, it took about half an hour to set the cabin up. BMA operated this for quite some years until a Post Office reorganisation ended the service from Heathrow.

Regarding the landing procedure, others are doubtless able to comment.

[trident3A]

Duckbutt, it was only for a period in the 80s, if I remember right it was always on clear days (which would tally with the visual approach thing), most often they were BA 757s which I think were pretty new at the time.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

WHBM.. I accept what you say and have to accept that my memory is slowly going. I was a Heathrow controller from 1972-2002 and truly have no recollection of the flights you mention. (Some ex-colleagues will now say it's because I rarely worked nights!)

[Skipness One Echo]

The mail flights were
BA3592 LHR-EDI which later became BD8802
BA3593 EDI-LHR which later became BD8801

Both departed at 23:30 local and passed each other on airways half way.
BMA got the contract from the mid 1990s and it ended a few years ago.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Skipness One Echo: Thanks for that... remember it well now. I was there, doing it:
http://www.members.aol.com/heathrowdirector/Tower4.jpg

[Talkdownman]

Aaaaaaargh!........The Shute!

[corsaman]

WHBM, I remember those mail flights well; I operated many of them as the sole cabin crew member/firefighter on board. Sat in the Penta or Marriott all day, pax'd to EDI on the BD64, ate my Diamond service dinner, sat some more in EDI then returned to LHR, tucked up by 1.15am. Often 4 days on the trot - a cushy number on nite stop money. I always played the boarding music full blast, because those mail bags scared me stiff - especially running to the back to arm the slides! Sounds crazy, but it was all rather eerie. I loved the views on the way down though - it was often so clear, you could see the lights of Tyneside and Dublin at once. It appeared on the roster as 'Nite Freighter'.:)

[OLNEY2d]

As I was reading this thread I was going to comment that 4 or 5 DME wasn't that uncommon at all and that I recalled seeing much tighter than that!

I then realised a theme was forming with a certain midlands headquartered operator:

I recall watching one of their super squat DC9s (a -10 or -15 I think, someone will know) making an approach to 23 or so I thought. It then turned final somewhere over Cranford with somewhere between 1 and 2d to run; and of course was beautifully painted on to 28R.

Spectacular.

The closest I've come in recent years was as PAX on an arrival onto 27L earlier this year in an A319, where the p/f stopped her in very short order and vacated onto taxiway alpha. Made my night at any rate!

[aviate1138]

WHBM.. I accept what you say and have to accept that my memory is slowly going. I was a Heathrow controller from 1972-2002 and truly have no recollection of the flights you mention. (Some ex-colleagues will now say it's because I rarely worked nights!)
HD,
Were you around when that EGLD Chipmunk landed near your tower during the night and was only noticed when dawn broke? So long ago I too have brain fade and incipient Alzheimers but it coincided with a big party at Denham but somehow no one remembered the sound of a Chippie departing into the gloom. :)
Aviate 1138

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

aviate1138.. Yes, I was working there but not actually on watch at the time. Best part about it was when ATC rang the Police to tell them about a Chipmunk on the grass the they suggested we should ring the RSPCA Animal Hostel which used to be on the airport!!

[howflytrg]

Of course there was always the GATWICK HEATHROW AIRLINK S61 that would make a short if final at all! lol. Thats how it should be again. None of this Speedlink National express rip off!

[GBALU53]

What about the Bn2 Islander operation between the two airport??:ok:

Please refer to this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=228190&highlight=heathrow)

[Midland 331]

>I recall watching one of their super squat DC9s (a -10 or -15 I think, someone will know) making an approach to 23 or so I thought. It then turned final somewhere over Cranford with somewhere between 1 and 2d to run; and of course was beautifully painted on to 28R.

>Spectacular.

Jumpseating in the late-eighties, I saw a similar type turn finals at (estimated)less than a mile to 09L. The comment from the captain I was with - "Bonkers - far too many eyes watching down here to do that" or similar.

Maybe both the same aviator, who ought to have gone crop-dusting instead.

r

[holyflyer]

Living in Heston (just north of the extended centre line 27R) during the 70's & 80's the British Midland Viscount then DC9 visual approaches were a sight to behold. In from the north with a rate one low level turn onto finals 28R (as it was in those days) well inside the OM, probably about 1.5-2d final. (The outer marker was across the road from St. Mary's Church, Osterley).

Best I ever saw was an attempt by a BA L1011 to switch from 28R to 28L at about 2d to the threshold (sort of Master Robert to Hatton Cross). Didn't quite pull it off and had to go round. I saw many switched from one runway to the other at the OM's with some interesting results.

[OLNEY2d]

I too grew up in Heston in the 70s and 80s - just north of the 27R localiser; hence this sorry obsession that plagues me to this day...

Also uncanny that we post the same story about the 'sports' approaches flown by the BD DC9 crews during that time. I was once PAX on a BA 737-200 that did something similar and started its turn to final over the TA centre at the top of New Heston Rd - must have been less than 1.5d once established. Very confusing from the inside!

Yes the switches from 28R to 28L (and vice versa) were spectacular and often carried out at less than 2d - Tridents on Shuttle flights being the most common repeat offenders as I remember; presumably to get themselves closer to the appropriate stand at the other end.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Tridents on Shuttle flights being the most common repeat offenders as I remember; presumably to get themselves closer to the appropriate stand at the other end.>>

I'm amazed that someone with a knowledge of Heathrow ops could write such a thing! No aircraft type can be an "offender" because the only reason a flight switches runways is on the explicit instructions of ATC. Because of the noise abatement rules they have to have a very good reason for doing so.

As I've said before, I worked at Heathrow in the 70s/80s/90s and I do not recall any jet aircraft turning on to final approach so close as some people claim. 1 mile from touchdown on 27R is just about over Berkeley Avenue, Cranford and the aircraft would be at 300ft which is chancing one's arm just a shade in a modern jet!! I'm not saying that it never happened, but I never saw it.

Runway switches were not unusual and I can recall only a handful of go-arounds resulting from a late switch. Switching at 4 miles out - approximately where the OMs used to be - should be no big deal and on easterlies ATC would often switch T5 landers to 10R to save them taxying time if the opportunity arose.

[OLNEY2d]

I used the word 'offender' tongue in cheek, but there was a definite correlation between the 'SHT' callsigns and switching :-)

Ref the Midland 9s - I really do appreciate it's hard to judge any kind of a/c position accurately without the requisite equipment; but in the absence of home made DFTIs, seeing them west of Heston (i.e overhead Cranford) in the turn would have to do. I remember being convinced they were approaching 23
Having said all that, you are very comfortably more qualified than me to know!

[Gulfstreamaviator]

In the old days I was lined up on the westerly runway, with two pistion twins and a 1-11.
The take off clearance was one twin early left, one early right, and the 1-11 rw heading.

Perfectly normal.

A visual base normally suggested that a turn INSIDE the termianal building was expected.

An early right to the north after take off usually resulted in the tower commenting on our smart hair cuts.

Did a "early right" in a lear 35, with similar comments.

Our reply was along the lines of "is that todays paper on your desk"....
or even....... finish your coffee....

Returning from the night mail runs, over the LON VOR at I think 80, and then request a visual right base at LGW, with a bet as to if we could make it with idle power from the LON.

Almost forgot: Very windy night 23 in use in LHR, all LGW diverting. In PA23, we landed fine. High speed taxi way. Perfectly normal. The big tin can bwho was next in sequence was rather disapointed when

told how we had landed.....


those were the days....

[captain_flynn]

I seem to remember these approaches into LHR aswell during the 80's and early 90's. They were mainly BA B757's. I lived in Southall, not too far from the gasworks at the time. They looked as if they were over ealing. I also recall a few that appeared to come over my house aswell but were not following the 23 extended line. I think I recall B757's, DC9's, B737's and MD80's flying these approaches. I always assumed they were aircraft being slotted in after a go around. I dont think i've seen the approaches performed for over 14yrs or so.