Lynx v Flagpole = 4 Trashed blades

[Marly Lite]

Have it on good authority that an AAC Lynx trashed all 4 blades whilst attempting to get a 'trophy' Irish Tricolour (SP?) from a hilltop site in South Armagh very recently. The gunner attempted to cut said tricolour off the flagpole from the cabin door but unfortunately the aircraft decended slightly causing the alleged incident. Damage to the blades occured at quite a close inboard distance from the root.

Apparently, there will be no board of inquiry but SIB are investigating.

There are rumours of cover-up (no board of inquiry) or is this such an open-and-shut-case that a board of enquiry is irrelevant, so only an SIB equiry is necessary??

Should this be BOI or an SIB investigation??

[TheWizard]

They could be the subject of a lot worse if it had been booby trapped like many of them used to be back in the day.:rolleyes: :uhoh:

[Wholigan]

They used to booby-trap Lynxes???????? :E

[PTT]

They used to booby-trap Lynxes???????? :E
Yep. By putting AAC pilots in them...
:E :E

[Two's in]

...or just getting Westlands to build them (sort of).

[Faithless]

No Board of Inquiry?????? I bet there will be now...........

[MINself]

I have seen and heard that smaller military aviation detachments that are on operations and away from their normal hierachy and supervision can tend toward pushing those boundaries just a little too much in trying to get a job done.

However in this case IF TRUE and I hope it isn't, it will be a crew who clearly didn't leave their spurs at home on this day and deserve everything they get. I'm sure the rest of us would feel significantly safer without morons like this who have clearly demonstrated to be capable of stupidity of the highest order to be kept out of UK airspace.:=

Also if they'd have bothered to go to Nutts Corner market, (10min drive from Aldergrove) that tri-colour that they wanted so much would of cost them each £10 rather then the tax payer ie you and I a small fortune, yeah nice one lads! :ugh:

Seems there back to booby trapping Lynx again with pilots in need of guide dogs or higher IQ, sorry that last comments ridiculous.

[MightyGem]

A thread VERY similar to this on ARRSE was pulled within a very short time!!

[Floppy Link]

...thitle reminded me of the exchange tour chap who had 8 tip strikes at once in a CA...
Tip Strike Trev where are you now?

[MReyn24050]

Used to be if the damage to the aircraft was Cat 2 and that there were no casualties then a Board of Inquiry was not required. In this case one would assume that it would be a case of replacing the gearbox and blades, a Second Line mobile task.

[Two's in]

Last time I was involved in the similar part of the country for a similar reason, an erstwhile member of the Guards Division had tried to emplane by walking down a slope to the running Lynx at an OP in the dark, amazingly he walked into the blade tips on the CMRB blades with his Kevlar walking cap on, got knocked sideways and unconscious, was thrown in the back and flown to hospital. 3 days later he was as right as rain (for a Guardsman) and discharged, the Lynx just needed 4 new blades and a bit of RTB. If that had been the old steel blades he would have been decapitated.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Last time I was involved in the similar part of the country for a similar reason, an erstwhile member of the Guards Division had tried to emplane by walking down a slope to the running Lynx at an OP in the dark, amazingly he walked into the blade tips on the CMRB blades with his Kevlar walking cap on, got knocked sideways and unconscious, was thrown in the back and flown to hospital. 3 days later he was as right as rain (for a Guardsman) and discharged, the Lynx just needed 4 new blades and a bit of RTB. If that had been the old steel blades he would have been decapitated.

There was a chap at R850 who decided to step off an adjoining 'step' into the blades of a Lynx (spot 3 to 4 I believe). Luckily he was also wearing his Mk6 and escaped his escapade with a concussion and whiplash.

Those steps used to claim many, especially folk jumping out the port side of a Lynx on spot 4 and going straight off the edge onto the fuel pipeline.:uhoh:

[Purple_NOT_take_a_D]

I heard it was an RAF Puma...........:eek:

[Ed Winchester]

I heard it was an RAF Puma...........:eek:
You heard wrong, but I like your style.
Sounds like they ran out of ability trying something unbelievably daft. However, thank f no-one was hurt.
I also think we are washing our dirty linen in public here, nice one Marly Lite. :ugh:

[The Helpful Stacker]

....I also think we are washing our dirty linen in public here, nice one Marly Lite. :ugh:

Oh I see.

RAF - Utterly, utterly etc = people can say what they like and slag the RAF to high heaven.

Teeny Weenie Airways - Trash an a/c trying something stupid = dirty linen airing, naughty naughty, keep it in house.

:ugh:

[Ed Winchester]

Oh I see.
RAF - Utterly, utterly etc = people can say what they like and slag the RAF to high heaven.
Teeny Weenie Airways - Trash an a/c trying something stupid = dirty linen airing, naughty naughty, keep it in house.
:ugh:
Marvellous powers of deduction. I have been in the RAF for over 16 years. But you obviously know me better than I know myself.
:D

[wg13_dummy]

I have been in the RAF for over 16 years.


Sprog. I've got flying gloves older than that. :)

[The Helpful Stacker]

Marvellous powers of deduction. I have been in the RAF for over 16 years. But you obviously know me better than I know myself.
:D


But you aren't the only person to comment on this thread.

[MINself]

I completely share your sentiment in hoping that the crew are safe and judging by the lack of public information on this incident I think its fair to say this is the case.

However to even try and excuse the utter recklessness of this incident with insinuating that everyone working in aviation must have done something of this nature is a little absurd to be honest.

And I don't think the SIB will be logging on anytime soon to join in this discussion so its safe to say their investigation should be unhindered from our Rumours

Or I could be wrong and to any SIB person reading this I'm sure you'll investigate this to the best of your ability and not make any investigative errors which result in the crew getting off scott free, so please crack on.

[wg13_dummy]

I dont think it was the worry of the SIB reading this to be honest (can they read??).

[movadinkampa747]

Sprog. I've got flying gloves older than that. :)

Thats only because you cant get gloves, as they are all given to coppers, stackers and lineys............

[The Helpful Stacker]

Thats only because you cant get gloves, as they are all given to coppers, stackers and lineys............

Damn, I haven't got any flying gloves. I must remedy that when I get back into work.;)

Anyone else want a pair whilst I'm on the USAS?

[GPMG]

Also if they'd have bothered to go to Nutts Corner market, (10min drive from Aldergrove) that tri-colour that they wanted so much would of cost them each £10 rather then the tax payer ie you and I a small fortune, yeah nice one lads! :ugh:




Not quite as good for dit telling rights though is it?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Not quite as good for dit telling rights though is it?

Better than "we trashed a Lynx doing something stupid" though.;)

[diginagain]

THS - plenty of illustrious careers have been built on trashing cabs. At one stage it seemed to be a pre-requisite for QHI training.

[GPMG]

Better than "we trashed a Lynx doing something stupid" though.;)


There is often a hairs breadth between 'a bloody good story' and 'a bloody idiot'.

But on the other hand, would Sir Douglas Bader be quite the hero he is if he had't done that bloody stupid stunt?

[Wwyvern]

In the early 70s, one of our Wessex crews came back with an Irish flag they had "found". We put it up as the backdrop for our crewroom darts board in Aldergrove.

Next morning, it was gone. Scary or what?

[ChristopherRobin]

stupid? yes. stupidest? no.

For me nothing beats the crab puma loadie who stiched a burst from his GPMG through the 25000-odd litres of A-1 in R850 - mind you he was keen - for a crab - in actually trying to load the weapon at all instead of keeping the rounds nicely vacuum packed.

Let he who is without sin cock the first weapon. (on the other hand - just stick to telling people to strap in and leave the sharp end to those of us who know how.)

[MINself]

:hmm:

none of your quotes or statements contradict the case of what this AAC crew are allegeded to have done as unacceptable as professionals and you can only refute this with stating that an RAF crew did some parachuting hooligan style?

I don't deny a hooligan jumping out of a C130 could be dangerous but that would depend on your definition of a hooligan as I'm sure were all very grateful for some so called hooligans that jump from C130s.

No one denies that the ROYAL Air Force has its fair share of reckless incidents, however these are not at the centre of this particular pearl of an incident which highlights all that can be wrong within aviation.

[The Helpful Stacker]

stupid? yes. stupidest? no.
For me nothing beats the crab puma loadie who stiched a burst from his GPMG through the 25000-odd litres of A-1 in R850 - mind you he was keen - for a crab - in actually trying to load the weapon at all instead of keeping the rounds nicely vacuum packed.


Actually he managed to hit two of the tanks (the two closest to the back fence) though one of them was empty at the time (though still full of vapour) and the other only had about 11,000 litres in it. It was 3 rounds I believe (well thats what came out of the tanks), 2 tracer and a ball.

This I know for certain as I was at the time minding my own business tidying up the hoses on Spot 5 when the senior ALM on the Puma fleet decided our tanks needed extra vents.:{ Of course the lad who was over in the bund doing the water checks on the filters was even closer to the 'action'.

Us wing mongs have seen equal amounts of numptiness from both AAC and RAF growbags, but if you speak to most wing lads they have nothing but praise for Junglies as it was usually them who lifted off G40 when 'fog' had stopped play for everyone else.:ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear oh dear CockRobin that is just priceless:D :D :D

A crewman makes a genuine mistake with his unload drills and has an ND, feckin stupid and no excuses but a mistake none the less:rolleyes:

A lynx CREW go out and deliberately and with premeditation completely disregard their auth and, but for extreme good luck almost cat 5 their aircraft:ugh:

Ah now I see it, your right it's the Crewman who is the stupidest:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ShyTorque]

As a tax payer I must voice my objection to a publicly owned aircraft being used for attempted theft.

Hope they got the damages docked from their wages. :*

[Wwyvern]

Carve111 - Y

Your second quote attributed to me was not by me.

[Gainesy]

Was Sooty involved?

[diginagain]

Sooty took up a ground appointment a long time ago.

[seafuryfan]

stupid? yes. stupidest? no.
For me nothing beats the crab puma loadie who stiched a burst from his GPMG through the 25000-odd litres of A-1 in R850 - mind you he was keen - for a crab - in actually trying to load the weapon at all instead of keeping the rounds nicely vacuum packed.
Let he who is without sin cock the first weapon. (on the other hand - just stick to telling people to strap in and leave the sharp end to those of us who know how.)

GPMG rounds for RAF SH have never been 'vacuum packed'(!), neither have any others.
The crewman wasn't trying to load the weapon, it was an unload.
All the crewmen I know are as keen as mustard.
As for your last remark - I hope that isn't a reflection of AAC CRM. Not for the ones I've met, anyway.

[diginagain]

Haven't we done this Door Gunner versus Door-slider banter before?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

If you thought, like me that Cockrobin's comments were pretty ludicrous:rolleyes:

"So 2 members of a five man Herc crew from 47 SF, yes we all know who they were, go parachuting with each stick until they have all jumped, but that wasn't premeditated, they just drew and fitted their parachutes in flight.
Me thinks not!!!"

We now have Carver telling us that the Lynx crew's actions are perfectly acceptable cos a Herc crew once did something wrong.............you couldn't write this stuff:D

The guy I feel most sorry for in all of this is the poor old door gunner. Having witnessed AAC CRM, now there's a misnomer if there ever was one, at first hand I can imagine this poor sap being ordered by some bully boy AAC SNCO Pilot to take part in this madness and he will no doubt be right royally butt f@cked for simply obeying a direct order:=

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[diginagain]

If you're right with your assertion, ABIW, then today's DG is a far softer one than those with whom I served. They were, despite being only Airtroopers or Lance Corporals in rank, considered to be an equal and integral part of the crew. Since the DG Leader was also the Regimental Sergeant Major, they had a direct line to 'God', and woe-betide any 'bully boy SNCO pilot' who tried it on with them!

I might add that, should this act prove to have taken place, I do not condone the crew's actions. But then, in keeping with the traditions of Pprune, it's all conjecture, isn't it?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dig,
There was a smidge:E of artistic licence with my post however my assertion that AAC DG's simply did as they were told was proven on at least two occasions I can remember when they hosed down parts of Sth Armagh and across the border in direct contravention of the ROE at that time, and if your seriously trying to tell me the DG in this incident was involved in the "planning" of this madness I simply dont buy it:=

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[diginagain]

I too, would be surprised if the DG was complicit in the planning. If true, it sounds more like a spur-of-the-moment burst of insanity.

Perhaps the intervening years of 'peace' have lowered the perception of the crews towards the very real hazards in theatre.

But then we get back into the realms of 'it wouldn't have happened in my day', don't we.:E

BTW, not certain about crew composition these days, but there is the remote possibility that it wasn't a SNCO in the left hand seat. Some Rodneys had the physical stature to be employable in the beast.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"BTW, not certain about crew composition these days, but there is the remote possibility that it wasn't a SNCO in the left hand seat. Some Rodney's had the physical stature to be employable in the beast."

I hear what you are saying but do you honestly believe any of those chinless wonders could have perpetrated this:p...............although the subsequent mis handling sounds your like typical "Royal Hands":D

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

edited to remove any hint of the word planning

[diginagain]

There you go again, inserting the assumption of 'planning'. :)

But in answer to the question, it's been many years since I crewed with officer, but it is still possible one could have seen it as a jolly jape.

Without exception (and if I'm wrong about the rank of the culprit I'll have to eat my old beret), a SNCO with some knowledge of the history of such emblems would have steered well clear of the flag.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"I did not say there actions were acceptable!!!!!"

Really, so what were you trying to say:rolleyes:

A drink on a friday lunchtime................and how exactly is that a crime:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[diginagain]

Which?

The flag, or ABIW's choice of lunchtime entertainment?

[PTT]

An error of Judgement perhaps.....

Oh, well, that's ok then...

:rolleyes:

[HEDP]

It seems like this error of judgement, if proved as such, just might not be as bad as manslaughter of a bystander with a C130 ramp during a low pass at a certain DZ a few years ago, let those from fleets that have had no issues be casting the stones!!!

I shall await the formal outcome with interest,

HEDP

[The Helpful Stacker]

....let those from fleets that have had no issues be casting the stones!!!....

That'll be the F3 fleet then, they don't get out much.;)

[KENNYR]

It never fails to amaze me how these forums degenerate into a slanging match (some might call it banter) between the Army and the Airforce. The Lynx crew have really stuffed their careers up the swanny for the sake of a piece of cloth.......go figure ! ! :D

[Blakey875]

Kenny - Well said!

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

"So 2 members of a five man Herc crew from 47 SF, yes we all know who they were, go parachuting with each stick until they have all jumped, but that wasn't premeditated, they just drew and fitted their parachutes in flight.
Me thinks not!!!"

But whatever they did, at least they were skilled enough to carry it out successfully and they didn't damage the aircraft...... a bad "counter argument" example to choose, I would suggest.

p.s. BTW, I thought the army usually complained that RAF crews didn't join in?

[ChristopherRobin]

ABIW - I can see that from your resorting to plain insults that I have hit a raw nerve - and Seafury's comments that rounds have never been vacuum packed are simply wrong. Yes they have, in order to keep the poor loadie from breaking a fingernail I suppose, and anyone who served in SAMA would agree with that.

But back to ABIW - how many times does it have to be pointed out to you that this is a professional pilot's rumour network and, my dear chap, the fact that you exhibit all the jealousy symptoms of one who has been rejected for pilot and, by the sounds of it, the Army, you cannot be considered here to be any more than a wannabe. Perhaps even a walt. Now I know that most people view you with a sympathetic eye, in the same way that one views a rambling drunk in the street, and I just know that you're the sort of person that will refute what I say no doubt claiming to "have always wanted to be a loadie - never gave pilot any thought", but we both secretly know, ABIW, that you'd give your left testicle to be me. Assuming you have any of course.

Now be a good chap and go back and read my original post. Use your finger under the words this time if it helps. And you will see that the thrust of my words was that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

If you can't be civil then sit there and shut up - in the back where you belong.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

C@ck old fella,

Posting your usual inaccuracies again I see:=

"and Seafury's comments that rounds have never been vacuum packed are simply wrong. Yes they have, in order to keep the poor loadie from breaking a fingernail"

During the period 90 to 94 after lots of suggestions to the Armoury at Aldergrove "magged" up 9mm and SA80 rounds which were issued in heat sealed plastic bags for Pilots and ALM's for a whole host of reasons however the box of 200 7.62 rounds for the GPMG, which needed to be loaded for every flight was never shrink wrapped, so perhaps you would like to re think your last post:ugh:

"But back to ABIW - how many times does it have to be pointed out to you that this is a professional pilot's rumour network"...........now c@ck I am sure at the top of this page it says...........

"Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."....................or have I mis read it:=

"the fact that you exhibit all the jealousy symptoms of one who has been rejected for pilot and, by the sounds of it, the Army, you cannot be considered here to be any more than a wannabe."

I have posted on here on numerous occasions over the last 3 years or so that I left school at 16 without even a single CSE and joined the RAF in 1974 as an avionics mechanic, and as I still have not a single educational qualification cos I'm dull as dishwater how the **** could I have even applied for pilot let alone been rejected, and lets be honest if the army who will accept anyone had kissed me off off what would be the chances of the RAF taking me:rolleyes:

So C@ck me old china from my time in NI I remember a huge Lynx 5 Cdr by the name of Chas who would never have let a Crab pilot let alone a Loadie get under his skin in this way...........so perhaps you aught to take a leaf out of his book and make it a bit more of a challenge:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[electric.sheep]

mind you he was keen - for a crab - in actually trying to load the weapon at all instead of keeping the rounds nicely vacuum packed.

Let he who is without sin cock the first weapon. (on the other hand - just stick to telling people to strap in and leave the sharp end to those of us who know how.)

So Christopher Robin, you haven't been to an operational theatre recently to see what a great job SH loadies and their pilots have been getting up to?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

brandnew,

I have virtually no issues with anyone on this planet let alone the AAC.....well apart from movers obviously but that goes without saying. I am just a happy go lucky fella who loves throwing out the odd hook to see if anyone's nibbling or throwing down some occasional "counter banter" fire:p

I challenge you to go back through any of my posts on here and find anything malicious in any of them, it's all just tongue in cheek stuff, I mean on quiet days I only have to mention my salary to get a certain ex mover/failed loadie to swallow the hook line sinker rod and the boat and a bit of good natured cross service/trade banter hurts nobody:E

Your not the first and won't be the last, but at least you didn't pm me and demand my location so you could come round and punch my lights out as one of your colleagues did a couple of years back:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[jayteeto]

This thread is fantastic!! What I find funny, is that ABIW was actually popular with the army crews at Aldergrove. I will bet that some of you actually know and like him in real life. I didn't realise he had no qualifications though....... Now it all makes sense!! :ok:
Now it has been a few years and the memory is fading, but just when did they shrink wrap the GPMG rounds?? The other mags were a master stroke of sensibility, through the armoury in seconds without spending 10 minutes getting drenched, putting rounds into little holes, hoping there was 40.
CR, I clashed with you a long time back about some trivia or other. You still have a massive chip on your shoulder and you really are a stroker.
Is that enough of of a personal insult?

[I_stood_in_the_door]

Carve,

Hello me old. Have read this thread with interest. A jolly good wheeze. Don't rise to ABIW, he a... well, musn't be rude! Draw your own conclusions.

Hope you are well, mucker and looking forward to your new post - should be a hoot!

Take care, Barlow.

Much Love,

One that failed before you!!

LFOGOOTFW

ISITD

[ChristopherRobin]

Not really Jayteeto. At least when I have a go at someone I give a thought to making it amusing for everyone else who isn't ABIW.

I am puzzled why you think I have a chip on my shoulder when you appear to be the one with a sense of humour failure. But then, languishing in liverpool chasing ASBOs all day long would make anyone feel like a grumpy middle aged civvy loser, so I suppose I might let you off.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear oh dear Chris,

You really ought to ponder before you post:ugh: You have absolutely no idea of JT's credentials and if you did your next post would be to publically apologise:=

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[jayteeto]

Grumpy, middle aged civvie loser, on the button old chap, I am a little bit like that thesedays. I fancy an ASBO myself as a bit of a status symbol. Banter is banter and being abusive is just that. Its a fine line, mylast post was to show what offensive is, I don't think you have quite sussed this out yet.
I have worked with good army, bad army, good RAF, bad RAF. If someone screws up then they screw up, whatever the service. Bringing up past incidents and talking about those who are without sin etc etc does not cut the mustard. Blindly protecting people just because they are army doesn't work either. They were idiots, just admit it, you will feel better....

[ChristopherRobin]

So point out to me where I defended their indefensible actions? Once again for the hard of brain, JT and ABIW, my comment was that glass houses and stones were a poor mixture.

And I don't give a cr@p about JT's or anyone elses so-called "credentials". He's just another civvy whinger as far as I'm concerned, so you can quit the girly hero-worship ABIW, you'll only end up with a broken heart.

[Two's in]

Is this thread creep or still the 5 minute argument? Let me know when it's safe to get back in the water...

[NutLoose]

Better not mention Wessex and Christmas trees then :rolleyes:

[jayteeto]

Oh CR, we have rattled your cage. ABIW gave me serious banter over the years, as did the other crewmen, including the Bessbrook ventilation specialist. Mr B took the banter like a man, he had to after dishing it out for years. You forgot to add 'fat' to your insults by the way, these pies really add the inches as we sit around doing nothing all day.
Did you know that I got a 'trophy' one night on an NVG trip? We took it around the world, sending photos to the owner of his property in exotic places. It was only 4ft long so my blades were safe though. That means I am throwing stones in glass houses....... Why not?? If you screw up, take the punishment like a man and stop trying to make excuses and blame everyone else. I am no angel, never claimed to be, ever. Is your real name McCain, you have so many chips??

[MINself]

I'm sure that through all this "banter" whatever the rank from whichever service recklessness in aviation of this order shouldn't go without those responsible standing up and facing the consequences for their actions.

Especially when the UK taxpayer is funding it!

:=

[movadinkampa747]

Is this thread creep or still the 5 minute argument?


Dont give me that, you snotty faced heap of parrot droppings. Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee nosed
malodorous pervert!

[KENNYR]

Just to put the thread back on track, in the adult world, does anyone have
the latest information on the damage........to the Lynx and the crew.

I hope the thread progresses a little now that it looks like all the toys have been thrown out of the pram and the kiddies have vented their spleens.

[jayteeto]

Sorry Kenny, you are correct, I apologise. It must have been a huge shock to the crew, there is a video doing the rounds, of a Chinook type helo, putting the final touches to a tower and descending to a blade strike/crash. 4 blades written off is a good result for this type of incident. Did the MRGB survive??

[movadinkampa747]

4 blades written off is a good result for this type of incident. Did the MRGB survive??

Perhaps a better result would have been a fully serviceable aircraft and a not so stupid aicraft captain who recklessly put his aircarft and crew in danger.:ugh:

[diginagain]

Have it on good authority .....

I'm still wondering about the 'good authority', Marly. Please enlighten us.

[jayteeto]

Give me a break!! I have stated clearly my opinion of the crews actions, however once the accident has happened, this was a lucky/good result. They could have been in a smoking hole.

[Eight Eights Blue]

KENNYR,

You asked for the thread to get back on track so here goes.

4 Blades replaced.
All other transmission systems tested IAW AP101 or whatever it is.
System tested - No fault found.
Aircraft tracked and balanced on ground and then airtested back to Aldergrove.
Crews back flying now I believe post check with QHI.
Investigation still ongoing both Regimental and SIB.
230 Sqn still training for other pastures and 5 Regt picking up all the work with only half the crews they used to have and half the helo's. Oh and 1 Navy Lynx helping out as well.
The boys are working hard believe you me and little bouts of stupidity sometimes creep in but they have been honest throughout and will take whatever they get on the chin.

[movadinkampa747]

however once the accident has happened,


Accident? Deliberate I say. The Captain of the aircraft should be grounded.

[KENNYR]

Thank you 8/8's. Crew very lucky to escape with their lives and careers. Nothing new about the crewing situation in NI then, it was the same back in the early 80's.