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View Full Version : BMI diversion causes a stir in Irish media


CarbHeatIn
27th Oct 2006, 18:12
From todays Irish Independent:

PASSENGERS on board a BMI plane told yesterday how they feared for their lives when their flight from London to Dublin unexpectedly diverted to Shannon without explanation.

One man's wife told how after he phoned her on his mobile she feared she would never see him again.

Frightened passengers were not told that a system for guiding planes in poor conditions known as an Instrument Landing System (ILS) was out of action at Dublin airport due to upgrade work. The system has not been working for the past two weeks and is expected to be out of action for a further two weeks.

However, the Irish Aviation Authority said yesterday an alternative system was available to pilots although this was not used by the pilot of the flight.

The British airline BMI has now launched an investigation into the incident.

The airline apologised to passengers after hearing how many of them feared for their lives when the aircraft halted its descent into Dublin and became airborne again without those on board being told what was happening.

In total, passengers spent almost five hours on flight BD131 from Heathrow to Dublin - which had been due to arrive at 7.05pm, but due to the diversion to Shannon did not finally touch down in Dublin until 10.38pm.

Shaken passengers on the Wednesday night flight recounted how they were only offered an explanation as to what had happened after the aircraft had landed at Shannon and been sitting on the runway for about 30 minutes.

A spokeswoman for BMI said there had been heavy rain and poor visibility at Dublin on Wednesday evening and the pilot had been unable to rely on an instrument landing system at the airport which is usually relied on in cloudy or poor weather conditions.

The spokeswoman said the ILS was not working on the runway and when the pilot realised he could not use this approach he opted, in the interests of safety, to divert to Shannon. It appears the BMI pilot had descended to a height of 600ft but still found that there was thick cloud below him, making visibility poor.

Blackrock businessman Donal Prior (43), who was on board the BMI flight, spoke of his concern about the lack of information. His wife Deirdre said although he had sounded calm when he phoned her from Shannon he later told her how at one stage he feared he would not see her and their four children again.

He told RTE's 'Liveline' show that when passengers asked cabin crew what was happening and why they were going to Shannon they were told the crew were as much in the dark as the passengers.

Mrs Prior said because of the climate post 9/11 she had been very concerned for her husband's safety. "I quite honestly thought this is the last time I'm going to talk to this guy.".

flash8
27th Oct 2006, 18:33
goodness gracious... people really are getting jumpy. That in itself is scary.

suasdaguna
27th Oct 2006, 18:36
the rest of us got in.....may the vor plate fell down between some panels?!! i jest.
I do recall many moons ago a plate fell down the back of the wx radar on a 732 going into TFS. The capt pulled the radar out (the old scope type) and retreived plate but they could push the radar back into its place which impeded full throttle movement. They got the sh@te scared out of em but landed ok. True story.

MarkD
27th Oct 2006, 19:07
30mins on rwy at SNN sounds odd... stands all occupied at this time of year?

Liffy 1M
27th Oct 2006, 19:25
30mins on rwy at SNN sounds odd... stands all occupied at this time of year?

I think "runway" is Irish media-speak for anywhere an aircraft might be at an airport, including the ramp - a bit like the way "warplane" is used for any military aircraft, transports and trainers included (especially if associated with the USA or Israel).

doo
27th Oct 2006, 19:42
didn't know things in Shannon were so bad that Dublin folk would fear for their lives

UP and Down Operator
27th Oct 2006, 20:54
Just another daft journalist that is not the least interested in anything to do with real facts.
They made a go-around and the guys have been hardworking up front and so what?? - happens all over the world every day! :hmm:

And the little scared one afraid of flying in the first place, is obvious the best to tell the horror story

Think we all would be more safe without daft journalists who will not let real life get in the way of a good scandal that can scare the rest of the population for no reason :ugh:

GBALU53
27th Oct 2006, 21:12
If the wx was on limits without the ILS before setting off would the company policy be that before the approach is made a cabin annoucement be made that due to the wx we may have to divert??

Globaliser
27th Oct 2006, 21:28
goodness gracious... people really are getting jumpy. That in itself is scary.I don't think this is anything new. But I agree it is scary to see how many people walk onto aircraft convinced that they are about to die on board. The slightest thing happens, they then know that their fears are being realised.

Nov71
27th Oct 2006, 22:02
Bad form though, app 4 hrs without explanation to pax (if report true!)
Perhaps Aer Lingus pilots can't fly & operate cabin intercom at same time?
In an unfolding emergency, I am happy that informing the pax of a 'technical problem/diversion' is last on the check list, but no news 30min after landing... perhaps the pax were worried Mo'L had taken over.

EDIspotter
27th Oct 2006, 22:02
similar scenario to myself when I flew to Zakynthos in May.

Two late aborted approaches due to fog and a divert to Athens. Captain only told us what was happening after the 2nd failed approach, but to folk like myself I had a good idea while others began to panic.

After 90mins on thr tarmac at Athens, we flew out for another attempt as the weather was clearing - same again though - low cloud cover. Back to Athens again, crew out of hours, disembarked and spent 6 hours in a holding lounge while another crew flew over and the weather cleared. Didnt make the news.

MarkD
27th Oct 2006, 22:05
liffy, point taken but if they weren't disembarked for 30mins it's still odd - having recently flown into SNN I can attest that it's hardly a long taxi :D

Doors to Automatic
27th Oct 2006, 22:07
One man's wife told how after he phoned her on his mobile she feared she would never see him again.

Awww pleeaaase!

speedrestriction
27th Oct 2006, 22:10
Bad form though, app 4 hrs without explanation to pax (if report true!)
Perhaps Aer Lingus pilots can't fly & operate cabin intercom at same time?


It was a BMI flight.

A storm in a teacup methinks. People have been watching too many "Seconds from Utter Annihilation" type programmes on TV. :ugh:

sr

mini
28th Oct 2006, 00:20
Not all red top types are tabloids... IMHO the indo broadsheet falls into this "category" ...

Otherwise, if the ILS at DUB was u/s surely it was NOTAMS - unless it was a sudden failure? Maybe a/c failure?

Reported 4 hrs & no notice is not good though...

Avman
28th Oct 2006, 07:48
I don't care whether they could have made a VOR appr or whatever, it's actually irrelevant to the matter concerned. The KEY factor here, which only one poster above has mentioned, was the apparent lack of information from up front. I'm an aviation person and an experienced pax, however, in circumstances such as a go-around, extended holding, diversion, I too would appreciate just a little word from the front as to what is going on. I can well sympathise that in the absence of any PA from the FD, in today's climate, many passengers may allow their imaginations to run wild.

bacardi walla
28th Oct 2006, 08:12
I suppose if the carrier was from an "unsavoury" part of the world, the crew would have carried on with the approach and stuffed it up. That would give the journos something to write about.

ILS u/s, below limits, divert....... is there a problem really??

Say Mach Number
28th Oct 2006, 09:45
Unless I have missed a trick here. The lack of announcement from the Captain to the pax(and by the sound of it cabin crew) until arrival in SNN is truly appalling. A go around and divn is nothing unusual to any aviator and am sure it was flown and carried out in a professional manner. However as a trainer, in my company I would have failed the Captain on a line check for his lack of communication to pax and cabin crew alike. Unless of course his lack of action can be justified and I cant think of a reason following a NORMAL go around and divn.

Penworth
28th Oct 2006, 11:23
As usual, people are jumping down the throats of the crew without knowing what really happened. Based on a (hardly reliable) passenger's account of events, you have all decided that the crew made an enormous mistake by not doing a PA to the pax. Now I'm not saying that they did everything correctly, and maybe they did have the time and capacity to make a PA, but the fact of the matter is that unless you were one of the flight crew on that flight, you don't know what the real situation was, so how can you possibly pass judgement?

PW

Carmoisine
28th Oct 2006, 11:46
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/ Click on Thursdays Show.

This is the show in question. The BMI incident is at the beginning, and comes back to it at about the 50th minute and 1min 14 min 50 sec. This is the same show that covered the Ryanair "first aid Kit" event. Not a very objective presenter sometimes.

Quote of the show, Pax talking about calling wife on the ground in SNN after diverting, wife says "I thought it was the last time I was ever going to speak to him alive!" :rolleyes:

Pax "I want to know why the Pilot missed the runway?"

Kak Klaxon
28th Oct 2006, 12:13
Say Mach Number you sound like an excellent trainer,you might get a training job with 3000 hours at ryr but I think you will find most BMI FOs have more hours than you.

You were not there so why comment as a trainer on another companies SOPs which you know nothing about.

apaddyinuk
28th Oct 2006, 12:38
Hehehehe....Thanks all, thats put a smile on my face today! I love my neurotic country folk!

corsair
28th Oct 2006, 18:55
It is the usual go around, panic, drama, omigod, we are all going to die scare that happens every now and then. :* But I will say that it might have been a good idea on the part of the crew to announce the go around and the diversion. A courtesy to the passengers in fact. Also the delay on the ground at Shannon may have been no more than a wait while staff were rounded up to man the jetway or whatever. But again apparently no announcement was made. That to me is a basic lack of courtesy to the customers on the part of the crew. Simple as that. It takes nothing for a quick announcement on the pa.

Stallspincrashburn
28th Oct 2006, 21:41
IMHO the vast majority of "customers" are far too arrogant to listen to any PAs made by either the flight or cabin crew. The rudeness that I often face as a passenger when I dare to politely ask the couple sitting next to me to cease talking loudly during the safety brief! The avalanche of unfastening seat-belt buckles and mobile telephone received SMS warning tones that accompany the request from the flight deck that we remain seated until the aircraft is fully parked. Is it any surprise that the pax who thought that his number was up following a routine weather diversion also claimed to have received no info for 4 hours. 4 hours! Oh, come on!:hmm:

As for you "professionals" out there, I wasn't there, so I don't know what the actual met was, but last time I checked Airbus and the CAA hadn't completed their CAT IIIB VOR/DME certification program. BMI use tailored AERAD airfield booklets with all the plates stapled togethed, and with each pilot having his or her own copy. With all airlines doing their damnest to conserve costs, an unscheduled diversion is not lightly undertaken. If a landing could have been safely undertaken then it would have been.

But most of all, shame on you for believing the press and their "reporting" of passengers comments to the detriment of your professional colleagues.:=

Halfwayback
29th Oct 2006, 10:27
With the comments being made this thread should be in Wannabees.

It is one person's comments and those of his wife reporting his alleged comments that are the main thrust of these reports.

As for me, if I have just gone around from a missed approach and I am diverting I concentrate on the safe navigation, safety altitude and cleaning up the aircraft before the PA. That is what is taught in bmi but maybe 'Say Mach Number' has a better idea of jumping on the PA. :ugh: In my book the PA comes after the briefing of the Senior Cabin Attendant (and they could make the PA if it is busy up front) - again bmi SOP

The company is holding its own investigation - why not wait until that comes out (I am sure someone will publish it here) before slinging mud in self-engrandisement.

HWB

Final 3 Greens
29th Oct 2006, 10:46
Halfwayback

Please play the ball, not the man.

Saymachnumber may be completely wrong in his comments, but he did not say what you imply.

As a moderator, you should set a better standard of behaviour.

Strepsils
29th Oct 2006, 15:56
The system has not been working for the past two weeks

Rubbish, I used it last week.

TightSlot
30th Oct 2006, 08:32
The difficulty we often face on PPRune, and one that is demonstrated here, is a lack of reliable information. The original article quoted on this thread provides a minimum of that commodity and a contrasting maximum of emotive (and emotional) BS. As is human nature, we've taken the minimum available facts, and filtered them through our own experience. That's fine, but possibly not a good basis for an argument?

Some facts seem, to me, to be beyond dispute:

During and after a missed approach, flight deck workload may well not permit time for a PA - the primary task will always be the safe operation of the aircraft
A diversion will increase flight deck workload further
A decision to divert should always be communicated to customers as soon as the workload permits, either by flight or cabin crew


Interestingly (well, to me at least) I'm in ongoing talks with our safety department on this particular issue. Some UK airlines have a standard PA for cabin crew to make immediately after a missed approach: The PA's are neutral and avoid identifying any particular cause, but are designed to reassure the more nervous until such time as the flight crew themselves have time to make their own PA. At the moment, I tend to use my own version of this PA, and then dependant upon circumstances (weather, flight conditions etc.) do a quick smiley walk-thru in the cabin to check on pax and crew. I tend not to try and speak to the flight crew until things have settled down somewhat. In many cases, the Commander is happy to allow me to communicate a follow up PA on his/her behalf, especially in busy ATC environments or at more complicated airfields - while this all seems to work quite well, I do feel that the process should be formalised within the company, and that's what we are working on just now.

Say Mach Number
2nd Nov 2006, 05:56
HWB - Sounds like we have same the SOP after a go around and clearly we emphasis the same priorities. Fly the plane, clean up the plane. Relieve the workload and put the autopilot in do the after take off checks and then come together as a crew in our little 'CRM window' and decide a course of action. Make your decision and then advice 3 people: No1, ATC, Pax.

Your right none of us have the facts except the crew and company but its 119nms to SNN from DUB and assuming you like us your SOP is to get alternate wx and your plog will have fuel/ safe heights/nm to divn, and the Dublin wx/notam was no surprise to them, I am just not sure where the drama is for the flight deck crew in diverting to SNN.

Funny enough did a go around the other day due weather and we flew the missed approach got vectored d/wind and did another app and landed. During which time had plenty time to speak to the no1 and then spoke to the pax. Thought about it after landing and it would have felt alien not to have done a pa!

But hey I wasnt in the BMI cockpit and they had their reasons but its a funny thing had i been a pax on that flight I would have probably been sat to someone defending them saying they were probably very busy. But in the cold light of day I would have been thinking a wee word from them would have been nice.

Gertcha
6th Nov 2006, 16:11
My wife was actually on this flight. There was no announcement from the flight deck until after landing at SNN, when the captain said that he "couldn't see the runway" and was waiting instructions from company. No-one was allowed to leave the aircraft as BD do not have a contract at SNN, for the same reason there was a problem with the re-fuelling, a fax was required to enable this. The MRs. by the way, DIDN'T fear for her life at any time, it was just poor communication that was frustrating.

radeng
7th Nov 2006, 12:01
For about the second time in what must be getting on for a thousand airline flights, I was on a flight that did a go around at Heathrow last Sunday. Half expecting screams or at least comments from the other slf, I was a bit surprised that none of the people around me even seemed to notice until there was a PA from the captain explaining that the guy in front wasn't going to have vacated the runway in time.
Did make me wonder just how much that cost BA in fuel for a 744 go around.

WHBM
7th Nov 2006, 13:02
No-one was allowed to leave the aircraft as BD do not have a contract at SNN, for the same reason there was a problem with the re-fuelling, a fax was required to enable this.
As I presume the aircraft diverted to Shannon because that was their alternate on the Flight Plan, I wonder what BMI are doing flightplanning an alternate on a trunk scheduled route where they do not even appear to have a handling agent's agreement in place there.

I am sure one of the many readers from Donington Hall can comment.

goshdarnit
7th Nov 2006, 15:36
A comment from the flight deck is at least reassuring for nervous pax - even if it is minimum info. I was on VS011 28/10 (LHR-BOS, A346); folks were getting edgy anyway after sh*tty weather, extended flight time (strong headwind), and then a long holding pattern (25mins or so). And then a go-round.
However captain made PA (within about 2mins of spooling up) explaining calmly that "runway not cleared in time and we are vectoring back into pattern, down shortly". Simple and concise and I think it was the actual calm announcement (rather than the content) that reassured the folks sat next to me. (I was more concerned about fuel!)

GDI

6chimes
7th Nov 2006, 20:30
4 hours, do drivers really carry that much fuel around for a scheduled 55 min flight?

Someone is telling porkies. I dont reckon it would be the chaps up front.

6

Gertcha
8th Nov 2006, 10:14
As I presume the aircraft diverted to Shannon because that was their alternate on the Flight Plan, I wonder what BMI are doing flightplanning an alternate on a trunk scheduled route where they do not even appear to have a handling agent's agreement in place there.

I am sure one of the many readers from Donington Hall can comment.

Exactly what I said to Mrs Gertcha. I wondered why the alternate wasn't BHD, unless the weather there was just as bad.

The 4 hours that 6chimes mentions above relates to the total journey time, including being the ground at SNN. Refuelling was required.

6chimes
8th Nov 2006, 20:38
In no way does this post point to a single person on this or any other thread!

Once again.....how dare those chaps who defy gravity and hurtle about the skies at several hundred miles an hour often in the dark, regardless of weather and sometimes with no visibility both human or electronic get in the way of an appointment, it makes no sense at all nor is it considerate:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Sorry folks but some people need to look at the glass half full.

6