BBC Article Claims St Athan Favourite for New Training Centre

[Styron]

Hopes for 5,000 jobs at RAF base
BBC News
26th October 2006

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42244000/jpg/_42244054_stathan1_203.jpg
An artist's impression of how the military academy would look

RAF St Athan is favourite to win one of the biggest government investments into Wales, creating up to 5,000 jobs, the BBC has been told.

It is understood the site in the Vale of Glamorgan is now the leading contender to win much of a tender for a £14bn military training academy.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/6089104.stm

[Melchett01]

If the bid is successful and planning permission granted, building work could begin next year and take around five years to complete.

Well shock horror, massive development in south Wales, just in time for the various local, European and general elections. Oh and did I mention that St Athan is in the Vale of Glamorgan constituency, which is held by Labour and is one of the least safe seats in the Commons (Lab majority 1808, the 572nd safest seat).

Anyone else smell a Noo Labour rat?

[Jobza Guddun]

What a brilliant idea. Take a readily accessible training establishment, easy to get to from all points of the compass, and with all the facilities it needs, then plonk it down in a corner of South Wales and spend billions achieving the same set-up.:ugh:

What a load of crap. Let's hope common sense prevails.

[alex_holbrook]

Let's hope common sense prevails.
Do not be ridiculous.

Creating 5,000 jobs?? What about the other farking jobs that will be lost from the real and current training establishments??! I give up, I bloody well give up.

[Rigex]

What a brilliant idea. Take a readily accessible training establishment, easy to get to from all points of the compass, and with all the facilities it needs, then plonk it down in a corner of South Wales and spend billions achieving the same set-up.:ugh:

What a load of crap. Let's hope common sense prevails.

Its the old Chivenor-to-Brawdy-and-back-again trick.
Leave it there long enough to appease the Viet Taff and then find a perfectly good reason to return things to the original location.

And when did common sense start to have anything to do with the decisions of the noo loonys?

[Stuff]

Is this for phase 1 or phase 2 training? With the slant of the article and Cosford getting a mention I'm assuming phase 2.

What exactly is wrong with DCAE Cosford again???? Nothing that a lot less than £14bn wouldn't fix?? Oh I understand..... :uhoh: :\ :ugh:

[airborne_artist]

What exactly is wrong with DCAE Cosford again???? Nothing that a lot less than £14bn wouldn't fix?? Oh I understand.....

Noo Liabour has been having problems with the Taffs. They are revolting - not enough are voting for Big Tone, as they've discovered there are other boxes on the ballot that they can also put their X in. Some have been voting for independent Labour, and others have voted for Plaid Cmryu. This will not do, so the decision has been taken to buy their votes back at a cost of £14Bn.

[Pontius Navigator]

But it's in Wales.

[charliegolf]

I think it's a brilliant idea, or as we say if we only want to speak to a very small part of the UK population who btw can all speak English, "Syniad Ardderchog!"

CG

Pontius: But it's in Wales.

CG: Me too.

[Gainesy]

Its not often one sees St Athan and "favourite" in the same sentence. Dump.

[anotherthing]

forgive me for my ignorance as I have been out of the services for some time now, but are most of the facilities being touted by this scheme not already available elsewhere?

In which case can the vast amounts of money not be spent on more worthwhile projects like giving you guys the correct kit for your environment when you need it etc etc?

Just a thought

[Rigga]

Of course one of the main reasons that many technical schools don't go to Wales is that, under Welsh Language Laws, all Teaching Staff MUST speak Welsh!

I wonder how many Technical Staff Applications will be thrown out at this Hurdle?

Yachydah! (I think!)

[BEagle]

But surely most technical stuff is in English anyway, not Druidic? I recall from my days at Valley that conversations between mechanics at Jones-the-motor often involved the usual hawking and grunting which the Taffia think of as a language, interspersed with more technical terms.

No doubt the same would be true of aircraft?

"RB199 gnbwyllc chwynn llchmw ddffrw Fuel Flow Regulator gwyn chwblch wbbll Digital Computer bryn chwdbr bbllchs....etc etc"

Look you. Isn't it.

[SirToppamHat]

Would I be correct in thinking that those based at Valley qualify for Day School Allowance so that their children aren't forced to learn Welsh? Presumably the same will need to be offered to those who are based at this new place? I wonder whether those costs have been factored-in? The more I see of these types of project, the less they make sense.

STH

[Zoom]

And who are Metrix? Are they this lot www.metrix.com based in Wisconsin, or this bogbrush company from NZ www.metrix.co.nz. And I wonder if there is any connection with Multiplex from Oz, noted and succesful stadium builders.

[Styron]

RAF base bid 'exceptional' - Hain
BBC News
27 October 2006

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42244000/jpg/_42244230_stathan2_203.jpg
An artist's impression of how the military academy would look

Welsh Secretary Peter Hain has said a proposed £14bn military training academy at St Athan would be a massive boost for the whole of south Wales.

The BBC understands RAF St Athan, Vale of Glamorgan, is the leading contender for a UK government investment which could create up to 5,000 jobs.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/6089716.stm

[dodgysootie]

Of course one of the main reasons that many technical schools don't go to Wales is that, under Welsh Language Laws, all Teaching Staff MUST speak Welsh!
I wonder how many Technical Staff Applications will be thrown out at this Hurdle?
Yachydah! (I think!)
What about the "Blue suit instructors", does this mean they will have to learn Welsh? Yeah right.
You see those two hangers? we'll be using the one in the middle!
DS

[BEagle]

Ah - Hain. That rabble-rousing POS who initiated all the anti-South African rubbish (including the Stop the Seventy (Cricket) Tour) when I was at University....

If it's come from him, it will truly be bolleaux....or 'bllchs'?

Interesting that the aritst's sketches don't show the grey, horizontal rain sweeping up the Bristol Channel for which RAF St. Athan is infamously known.

[charliegolf]

Rigga

It's balls to suggest that all teaching staff must be able to speak Welsh. Eighty percent of Welsh schools would shut tomorrow were that the case. Ditto the universities.

No-one, including yours truly, is a fluent Welsh speaker at my school. An' I'm the Head. (Already done all the call me Dick jokes)

BEags, with Welsh like yours, you'd get by.

CG

Who knows it won't come to Wales.

[Styron]

BBC VIDEO CLICK HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/shared/player/vid100.stm?clippos=0&clipurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news/video/63000/bb/63132_16x9_bb!asx&title=Hopes%20for%205,000%20jobs%20at%20RAF%20base&wintype=200&rhs=http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_6080000/newsid_6089500/bb_wm_6089508.stm&cs=news&fsname=bb_wm_fs&bw=bb)

[FatBaldChief]

Of course one of the main reasons that many technical schools don't go to Wales is that, under Welsh Language Laws, all Teaching Staff MUST speak Welsh!
I wonder how many Technical Staff Applications will be thrown out at this Hurdle?
Yachydah! (I think!)
I am a DCAE brain trainer and I refuse to speak 'Who's coat is this jacket hanging on the floor?'
If the DTR comes up with VietTaff as the best solution my long standing Taffia corruption/moneylaundering/protection/pimping/holidayhomecentralheating theory will be finally proven. :ugh:

[Toddington Ted]

Metrix is one of 2 consortia (is that correct Latin?), MC3 is the other, that are bidding for the DTR Public Private Partnership to provide all ground technical training for the 3 Services, the so-called package 1 (Package 2 is DCLPA and such). The preferred bidder was due to be announced next month so there's a bit of a leak here (oh how droll!) methinks. As this is all planned to come to fruition around 2012 after I've retired from the light blue I guess I shouldn't be concerned. Still, I quite like Lincolnshire and have only been to Saints once, not sure whether I'd like to go there again or not, but its academic in my case - not, however, to some of my colleagues.

[Styron]

http://ukga.com/images/content/image1484.JPG

[Styron]

http://www.duncans.tv/images/pot-noodle-fuel.jpg

[EODFelix]

Of course the taffia option would have nothing to do with the DARA "white elephant" hanger etc would it? Having spent £X millions developing an in depth maintenance facility and then deciding to change the whole approach to maintenance?

[Archimedes]

Well shock horror, massive development in south Wales, just in time for the various local, European and general elections. Oh and did I mention that St Athan is in the Vale of Glamorgan constituency, which is held by Labour and is one of the least safe seats in the Commons (Lab majority 1808, the 572nd safest seat).
Anyone else smell a Noo Labour rat?

You might also have noted that Cosford is in a Tory marginal constituency, where the sitting MP has a majority of 948...

There has, I gather, been quite a lot of adverse comment in the local press covering the Cosford area about the St Athan bid and the involvement of the Welsh Assembly in talking up the prospects of that consortium (along with hints about how not giving St Athan the contract would be a disaster). I daresay Mr Hain's intervention will receive some more comment.

[Neversurrender]

When we achieve total independance, which we definately will in due course, we will charge the English government a fee for each and every military person who crosses the bridge on the way to St Athan for their training, and we will also charge a very attractive rental fee for the use of the St Athan facility.

And the over-fly trips of our land will also be billed to Whitehall.

Indeed, we are working on a huge raft of fees which we will be accruing.

The colossal rip off of our country over the centuries is soon about to end, and the compensation start to flow westwards over the bridge.

Good times ahead for Viet-Taff.:D

[Styron]

Do you really think the base would still be in Wales if you
became independent.

We would simply move it elsewhere and I am sure Wales
would become a left wing socialist state with no military
but more money for single mothers and immigrants.

[Pontius Navigator]

When we achieve total independance, which we definately will in due course, we will charge the English government a fee for each and every military person who crosses the bridge on the way to St Athan for their training, and we will also charge a very attractive rental fee for the use of the St Athan facility.
And the over-fly trips of our land will also be billed to Whitehall.
Indeed, we are working on a huge raft of fees which we will be accruing.
The colossal rip off of our country over the centuries is soon about to end, and the compensation start to flow westwards over the bridge.
Good times ahead for Viet-Taff.:D

That would be a complete reversal of policy. It is free to enter Wales but it costs to get out. Mind you that might be an English plot :}

[BEagle]

Wrong, actually. You have to pay to get into Wales, but not on the way out.

Much as you do for any other zoo.

There's lovely. Isn't it.

[charliegolf]

Taffy gonna need a bigger boat for all these fish!

CG

[Rigga]

CG and Dodgysumpy,

I have friend who was refused employment at a Welsh College (in Wales!) as she could not speak Welsh. She is/was a trained and experienced "English as a Foreign Language" Teacher. Welsh not involved - as the teaching for this subject does not include speaking the students' languages. (I am told)
My friend was told that it is Welsh Language Law that Educators must be Welsh Speakers. I believe that Technical Colleges are also subject to this Law even if the subject itself is not taught, or even available, in Welsh.

And another thing - Blue Suits! - in a future MOD Training School? - You must be joking? It would be better to assume little or no Uniformed involvement below Squabbling Level. This is also another PFI/PP set-up by Tonies Cronies - of which I expect some sort of Board membership to be announced after June next year. Just another money-spinner.

The only reason Satan (Freudian keyboard slip) is being promoted is due to EU development money putting an inordinate 10 year bias on the finances.

As a sideline - have you ever tried to get a book on jet engine theory in Dutch? - almost as bad as welsh - but at least there are some!

[woptb]

Unfortunately your friend is talking out of their 'rusty bullet hole'! My wife (who is from Kent) teaches in Wales & speaks no Welsh.Welsh is a core subject in Wales (funny old thing!) & some schools do teach all subjects through the medium of the Welsh language.
"Ah - Hain. That rabble-rousing POS who initiated all the anti-South African rubbish (including the Stop the Seventy (Cricket) Tour) when I was at University...."
Beags,do you mean that lovely fluffy Apartheid regime that used to murder,torture & internally exile its own citizens ?

[BEagle]

Sure the apartheid regime was pretty awful - but how did trendy-leftie rabble rousing anti-cricket tour and anti-Barclay's Bank demonstrations help?

Of course Hain's fellow traveller Straw was NUS president at the time when we had all that student unrest in the early 1970s.....

[Styron]

St Athan will also be home to Torchwood. :}

http://static.flickr.com/72/178014155_6775f87dab.jpg

[Dan Gerous]

Spent 9 months in this dump doing my fitters course in 1980. It doesn't look any better. My commiseration to anyone sent there :sad:

[woptb]

Sure the apartheid regime was pretty awful - but how did trendy-leftie rabble rousing anti-cricket tour and anti-Barclay's Bank demonstrations help?
Of course Hain's fellow traveller Straw was NUS president at the time when we had all that student unrest in the early 1970s.....
Pretty awful! Bit of an understatement there!
Its all about ethics don't you know,such as in where money is invested,wether or not people are discriminated against.You see they could'nt demonstrate on the streets of Soweto,the police were in the habit of shooting people dead.
Believe Hain had some first hand knowledge as he was educated in South Africa.

[paulhadwick]

This was a done deal from the moment Metrix decided to use St Athan.
It is political, diabolical and disgusting.
The jobs promised to the Welsh can only come about if instructors and staff presently working at Cosford (in my opinion the best place for this by far) do not move to the new site. That is jobs for the welsh in direct proportion to the jobless in the midlands!
The MOD is showing its true colours on this one

[glum]

Makes no sense to the thousands of trainees who will have to pay a toll every time they go home for the weekend, and travel hundreds more miles if they're from oop north, than the pretty central location of Cosford.

Not forgetting the history of RAF training - we don't have a long one, but it'd be nice to keep what we have!

Any idea what's wrong with Cosford as a training site?

[movadinkampa747]

Makes no sense to the thousands of trainees who will have to pay a toll every time they go home for the weekend, and travel hundreds more miles if they're from oop north, than the pretty central location of Cosford.


Rubbish. If you are from Gloucester then it is easy......................................
Look B4265 onto A4226 for about 6 miles then take the A48 for 14 miles before a very short spell on the B4237 before coming back onto the A48, B4237, A449, A40, A417, A4301, Westgate Street, right onto Upper Quay Street, left onto Bearland, Continue forward onto Longsmith Street, turn right onto Ladybellegate Street and finally onto the A4301. voila no bridge no toll.:hmm:

[GlosMikeP]

Wrong, actually. You have to pay to get into Wales, but not on the way out.

Much as you do for any other zoo.

There's lovely. Isn't it.
Nope. Use the M50 in and the M4 out and don't pay at all. That'll scotch the Welsh nationalists a treat.

[woptb]

This was a done deal from the moment Metrix decided to use St Athan.
It is political, diabolical and disgusting.
The jobs promised to the Welsh can only come about if instructors and staff presently working at Cosford (in my opinion the best place for this by far) do not move to the new site. That is jobs for the welsh in direct proportion to the jobless in the midlands!
The MOD is showing its true colours on this one

I believe the Midlands hasn't a monopoly on unemployment.
Incidentally The No. 4 School of Technical Training has been based at Saints for over 60 years.

[huntaluvva]

Its the old Chivenor-to-Brawdy-and-back-again trick.
Leave it there long enough to appease the Viet Taff and then find a perfectly good reason to return things to the original location.
And when did common sense start to have anything to do with the decisions of the noo loonys?
Chivenor to Brawdy September 1974, and back again, August 1980.... North Devon was a liberal constituency that was never going to vote Labour, whilst Pembrokeshire had a Labour MP with a small majority.
At least it gave them the chance to replace the wartime accomodation at Heaven-in-Devon, and nowadays, I'm sure the Royal Marines appreciate it....
If PPrune was around at the time, what interesting reading it would have made!!!

[mary_hinge]

(Scan, cut and paste from page 29)
A consortium known as Metrix has emerged as favourite for at least one of the two defence training PFI contracts reckoned to be worth around£19bn. But who is behind the snappily-named outfit set to be handed access to much of Britain’s military technology and be relied upon to prepare the armed forces for operations for 15 years?
Providing the computer capability is – uh, oh! EDS, the company’s record of screwing up CSA, the Inland Revenue tax credits, and more recently the forces own personnel administration system seems to have recommended itself to MoD bosses
Other members include Qinetiq, 30% owned by US investment fund Carlyle, which acquired the shares some 5 years ago through the part privatisation of DERA; and Augusta Westlands, bought by Italian defence giant Finmeccanica a couple of years ago. Success for Metrix would represent an early success for Finmeccanica director Lord Bach, who as defence minister in the last parliament approved the Augusta acquisition.
And who could doubt the credentials of Raytheon? Among the blots are:
Conviction for illegally obtaining classified documents (1990)
Over charging on Government contracts (1994)
Compensation to a competitor for spying (1999)
$410m settlement with investors over false accounts (2004)
Private education company Nord Anglia secures a birth despite financial troubles and a questionable record of privatising schools in local authorities. In September last year it was forced to lay off 100 staff and flog its headquarters as it lost money on a chain of nurseries.
And no consortium would be complete without one of Britain’s finest outsourcers, in this case Serco – the firm that earlier this year admitted that its dismal performance on prisoner tagging only improved when it was threatened with swingeing penalties.
Metrix has the crucial cabinet-level of Welsh Secretary Peter Hain. The consortium will be based in the RAF’s St Athan site in Wales and use a £100m “super-hangar” that the MoD built just before the aircraft repairs it was designed for were moved out. Though extreamly unpopular with MoD staff, the move would therefore spare some blushes, even it means handing over training of the country’s armed forces to the most motley of crews

[modtinbasher]

(Scan, cut and paste from page 29)
Though extreamly unpopular with MoD staff, the move would therefore spare some blushes, even it means handing over training of the country’s armed forces to the most motley of crews

Could history repeat itself? What about the contractor that went to the job centre in Llantwit Major with the question to all plumbers and the like:- 'can you hold a spanner' whilst they were trawling for specialised airframe staff to satisfy their hard won contract.

Somewhile later an undisclosed number of Tonkas (18) had fasteners pulled out with claw hammers and drills "waggled" through holes that were meant to have 'shrunk fit' fasteners replaced in them! I think the MoD got about £5M for each of the kites that were affected and the specific company changed its name and is still in business today.

[monkeybumhead]

Heard a rumour today that new quarters are being built at the welsh site, and that it started 2 weeks ago. Could it be that someone has been given the nod by our most honest and trustworthy (mainly of celtic origin) government? Still I suppose the rest of us will find out on 27th Nov, unless they put it back again.

[splitbrain]

I believe the Midlands hasn't a monopoly on unemployment.

No it doesn't, but this proposal isn't about creating NEW jobs at all, it is a sickening and cynical horse trading in existing jobs at Cosford and of course the equivalent sites run by the other two services. It is about sacrificing employment and popularity in one region with the aim of making poliical gains in another. Where S Wales gains - if it does gain - someone else loses their livelihood.
But no matter as long as it ultimately keeps some unprincipled goon in Whitehall in theirs eh?
This was never even supposed to be a political decision, but give a politician a chance to score points and, to quote the hackneyed old saying, in the overall clamour to kick the alligators off ones ass we forget that the original aim was to drain the swamp.

[monkeybumhead]

It appears the decesion has been put back yet again. I was informed by someone it might be due to the fact someone asked a rather probing question. Something along the lines of the government awarding itself a contract. Could it be down to their stake in QuinetiQ or the fact the money the Welsh Development Agency were offering to plough into said progect actually comes from the tax payers pocket? If I am wrong then so be it as I'm sure there are members of this community that know a great deal more than myself on this matter.

[GlosMikeP]

Could history repeat itself? What about the contractor that went to the job centre in Llantwit Major with the question to all plumbers and the like:- 'can you hold a spanner' whilst they were trawling for specialised airframe staff to satisfy their hard won contract....
Indeed it could! I believe that's how the Buccaneer came to disintegrate all over the place in the 80s.

Blackburn, to save dosh and, I believe, for the lack of suitably qualified machinists, decided to employ 'craftsmen' when they won the contract for the NA39 to make the aircraft. They needed highly skilled craftsmen, it was allegedly decided. And found them in the shape of carpenters from the furniture building trade.

These craftsmen didn't understand the need to make machined edges round and polished, to stop crack propagation through flexing. No understanding of 3xd before drilling holes near edges.

And no one worried about it until aircrew lost their lives. I wish I were kidding. Perhaps it's all a dream....

[teeteringhead]

the fact the money the Welsh Development Agency were offering to plough into said progect actually comes from the tax payers pocket? ... quite likely. Particularly as the WDA ceased to exist on 1 Apr 06 and was absorbed into .........the Welsh Assembly Government!

[L1A2 discharged]

No surprises. The announcement has been delayed to 'next year'. Some say 'early in 2007', others don't.

[monkeybumhead]

The last I heard was that Jan 07 is when we will next hear something. Probably that the announcement will be put back till later in the year.

[splitbrain]

Well, after all the agonising, rumour and counter rumour the big day dawns tomorrow (17th Jan)
The Cmd at Cosford will brief personnel on the preferred bidder decision at 12 O'Clock, parliament will be told tomorrow as well.
The BBC Wales website which has been all but moving the aircraft from Cosford to St Athan over the past few months tells us that a number of Welsh MPs have been invited to Downing Street afterwards...for congratulatory champers and one supposes :*

[monkeybumhead]

What else would you expect from a government that is full of celtic loonies. Nought like jobs for the boy(o)s. I do hope some searching questions are asked about how the decision was reached. Could it have been something to do with jobs on boards or backhanders?

If anyone is unsure as to who makes up the metrix consortium then I suggest you take a look at the metrixuk website, or link via qinetiq's website, and draw up your own conclusions.

[philrigger]

What about the "Blue suit instructors", does this mean they will have to learn Welsh? Yeah right.
You see those two hangers? we'll be using the one in the middle!
DS

;)
What 'Blue Suiters' ?


'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[charliegolf]

There goes the neighbourhood then.

CG

[LFFC]

Well, after all the agonising, rumour and counter rumour the big day dawns tomorrow (17th Jan)
The Cmd at Cosford will brief personnel on the preferred bidder decision at 12 O'Clock, parliament will be told tomorrow as well.
The BBC Wales website which has been all but moving the aircraft from Cosford to St Athan over the past few months tells us that a number of Welsh MPs have been invited to Downing Street afterwards...for congratulatory champers and one supposes :*

I wouldn't hold your breath! Here's a very interesting news clip from today's Torygraph.

A consortium bidding for a huge contract to privatise all non-military training for the armed forces has tabled a last-minute revised offer to do the work for at least £1bn less (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/01/16/cnmc316.xml).

I think there's a lot more water to pass under the bridge yet!! Remember, it's only a Preferred Bidder decision. As Mr Branson found out, Preferred Bidders don't always win!

[Washington_Irving]

I wouldn't hold your breath! Here's a very interesting news clip from today's Torygraph.
A consortium bidding for a huge contract to privatise all non-military training for the armed forces has tabled a last-minute revised offer to do the work for at least £1bn less (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/01/16/cnmc316.xml).
I think there's a lot more water to pass under the bridge yet!! Remember, it's only a Preferred Bidder decision. As Mr Branson found out, Preferred Bidders don't always win!
MC3, which includes BAE Systems and VT Group, says DTR should be run as a simple outsourcing deal.
Because we all know that BAe and Vosper Thornycroft are past-masters at delivering the goods on time, on spec and on budget for Auntie Betty. :ugh:
Nice to see that the golf club's staying.

[Gaz ED]

Take a load of triservice trainee mechanics/fitters and place them in the same locale as Paras, Marines, and Rocks.

Mix with liberal quantities of beer and observe results.

Oh Dear!

[splitbrain]

Well thats it. Metrix has won the bid and the whole shooting match will transfer to St Athan commencing 2011. Civvey personel will transfer to the new partner during 2008 after which they can be made redundant.
Errr excuse me, redundencies? So just how many of these 5000 jobs are being created around St Athan then :confused:

[Regie Mental]

1500 according to the Times.

[formertonkaplum]

Anyone else heard that the person responsible for the study into this new Academy is also the same PR*T who signed up to the Super Hangar?

And what now for Cosford?

If this is going to be the new 'Centre for excellence' does that mean until now, our training has been below standard?

We are assuming of course, this money is not being spent on Wales to earn votes! Cut free these klingon colonies (like they want!) and England will be far better off for it !!

Contreversial, but true !!

[splitbrain]

If this is going to be the new 'Centre for excellence' does that mean until now, our training has been below standard?

Listening to some of the hyperbole and guff thats been sprouted over the past few months, you would genuinely think it has! Some of the language used has been quite offensive to the current staff who have been delivering training to service personnel for a good few decades now, and whatever one thinks of the training regime its done a pretty good job IMHO.
We have been told, for example, that we would receive the necessary training to deliver the highest quality of technical instruction, oh really :confused: So we haven't been capable of doing that up to now then?
An in-house bid was not considered because it couldn't be innovative enough, oh really:confused: I can't be innovative in the way I do my job then? Bollox!

Our good commandant was accompanied by a Prof Molineux who apparently headed up the decision making team. he gave a quick spiel on the whys and wherefors of the decision and at the end stated that it wasn't a political decision..... Really? So why the hell did you feel the need to tell us that then eh prof :rolleyes:

[charliegolf]

Tonka the plum said:

"We are assuming of course, this money is not being spent on Wales to earn votes! Cut free these klingon colonies (like they want!) and England will be far better off for it !!"

Course it's for votes. It's our 'loony Celts' turn. You Saxon-Norman-German mongrels had long enough a turn. Be fair!

As for klingons being cut free............ Lord give me strength.

CG

(One of the huge majority of klingons who are British and don't want independence.)

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6268427.stm
:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:


NAAFI Bop will be interesting with all the inter service testosterone kicking about.
Duty Officer and SNCO are going to be busy

[woptb]

Tonka the plum said:
"We are assuming of course, this money is not being spent on Wales to earn votes! Cut free these klingon colonies (like they want!) and England will be far better off for it !!"
Course it's for votes. It's our 'loony Celts' turn. You Saxon-Norman-German mongrels had long enough a turn. Be fair!
As for klingons being cut free............ Lord give me strength.
CG
(One of the huge majority of klingons who are British and don't want independence.)

Concur.

Ymlaen Britain!

[splitbrain]

Course it's for votes. It's our 'loony Celts' turn. You Saxon-Norman-German mongrels had long enough a turn. Be fair!

Nahhh, give ME strength :ugh: :ugh:

South Wales has had its share of the cake before and blew it.......

......Thinks DARA...hmmmmm, cat 5'd Tornado, trade practices that made H Bloggs garage look like a Ferrari main dealer..........

And now, like Oliver Twist, it wants some more :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[charliegolf]

Split

You seriously think the location was the cause of that debacle? Nothing to do with the civilianisation of military a/c servicing, swiftly followed by lowest bidder gets the cheapest labour- monkeys and nuts etc?

CG

[flower]

The vast majority of people in Wales Do Not Want Independence thank you very much, as much as we do not want a Welsh Assembly.
It may surprise people to know that not only were those 5000 jobs announced today but also a further 1000 jobs elsewhere in the region by private investors, it is an area ripe for investment and growth.
This was one bid that all the political parties , local businesses and general population got behind.

[Melchett01]

So would this new centre of excellence be the same centre of excellence that trashed the Tornados in the early 90s???

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.com/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmwelaf/1129/1129.pdf

Makes interesting reading, gives an indication of what exactly other than fresh air was going through their minds during the decision making process. Was interesting to see that Members of the Welsh Assembly argued that St Athan would be good because it had a drive to work population of 600,000 within 45 mins and an academic & trg infrastructure to support the development. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I reckon Cosford has the potential for a far greater sub-45min drive to work population than St Athan (I think Bham has a population > 1million and the West Midlands conurbation > 2 million).

And as for the academic & trg facilities near to Athan: in addition to those already at Cosford, there are universities at Bham, Aston, Wolves, Coventry, Stafford, Keele - all near by. And in the proposal, I don't see any mention of Cardiff based educational establishments getting involved in supporting the development.

But as it also clearly states in the report, Wales provides 9% of all MOD recruiting, but gets only 6% of MOD funding (cracking logic here).

1. Maybe that's because Wales doesn't have many bases / facilities there that it only gets 6% of the funding.

2. If you build at St Athan, does that mean that all those 9% will go there?

3. So what if Wales provides 9% of all recruits?! That just means that 91% come from elsewhere - why not put it somewhere else.

Looks like another Noo Labour smoke & mirrors job!:sad: Oh well, if nothing else, at least that's one Labour MP guaranteed to keep hold of his seat at the next election.

[splitbrain]

Split

You seriously think the location was the cause of that debacle?

Not at all. I was simply responding to the apparent suggestion that South Wales should have got this investment by dint of some economic our-turn-ology. I was pointing out that the region has had a previous chance to make good on a major defence contract and screwed it up big style.

[monkeybumhead]

Wales provides 9% of all recruits do they? What's that then, a couple of regimental mascot sheep and the manpower for the Welsh regiments within the army? Let's all give a big well done to Wales then. As for only getting 6% of MoD funding, why should they get more? That leaves 94% to be spent around the rest of the UK on things such as ESF for Hercs, the correct kit for the troops in the sand pit, as well as other bad places. Aeroplanes don't keep themselves in the air Neil and it isn't magic either.

Oh well the votes have been bought, I suppose we will have to put up and shut up.

[ZH875]

Now just watch the Tolls on the Severn bridges rocket. Maybe this will bring in more VAT for Mr Brown.:)

Will it cost as much to demolish Cosford as they have spent on it over the last 10 years or so?

[Letsby Avenue]

One has to remember that England has never returned a majority for a labour government, they get into power purely on the votes of the regions, namely Scotland and Wales. Did we really think that NuLab could ever see this contract go to an English shire? As far as NuLab are concerned, the MOD are little more than a job creation scheme for whichever unfortunate constituency has the misfortune to be landed with a labour MP :hmm:

[Sospan]

Not at all. I was simply responding to the apparent suggestion that South Wales should have got this investment by dint of some economic our-turn-ology. I was pointing out that the region has had a previous chance to make good on a major defence contract and screwed it up big style.

So let me set the record straight, The cock up at Saints was put down to the private company Airworks ! Now the MOD would never contract this company again.... or would it ?

Renamed VT Aerospace, as many of you know they are now providing us:-

air engineering and maintenance training
aircraft rectifications and modifications
antenna maintenance
communications systems
computer networking
ground-based radar systems
management training
project management
simulator maintenance
structural modifications
technical recruitment
vehicle modifications

Not bad for a company that damaged more than 15 of our finest frames !!!!

[splitbrain]

The cock up at Saints was .....

Due largely to that particular company's inability to recruit labour, skilled in the aerospace sector, from the local marketplace at the price it was willing to pay.
In spite of its geographical advantage, Cosford regularly has problems recruiting AND retaining the personnel it needs at the price the MOD is willing to pay. So, unless Metrix is prepared to up the ante and recruit the right people at the right price then it is likely to hit upon the same problems. But not to worry, as long as the board members and senior managers get their company cars eh?
Oh it'll find staff alright, but you pay peanuts, you get monkeys as they say. And if you're happy for the future airforce to be trained by monkeys then fine. But don't for one second try to tell me that Metrix will do a better (or even on-par) job of it using people who haven't ever faced the day to issues every liney has to contend with than the old sweats at Cosford/Halton ever could.

[papajuliet]

Taking an objective view, is it not better to choose a site with a large developed airfield with plenty of room for expansion compared to an airfield on a restrictive site in the congested West Midlands?
On a subjective note I think the new museum building at Cosford is a monstrosity which has ruined the appearance and ambience of the place!

[In Tor Wot]

With this lot forming 'Metrix' http://www.metrixuk.com/ what could possibly go wrong . . . . . . . ?

[woptb]

Wales provides 9% of all recruits do they? What's that then, a couple of regimental mascot sheep and the manpower for the Welsh regiments within the army? Let's all give a big well done to Wales then. As for only getting 6% of MoD funding, why should they get more? That leaves 94% to be spent around the rest of the UK on things such as ESF for Hercs, the correct kit for the troops in the sand pit, as well as other bad places. Aeroplanes don't keep themselves in the air Neil and it isn't magic either.
Oh well the votes have been bought, I suppose we will have to put up and shut up.
Banal & insulting to the point of stupidity! Never met an Englishmen, Jock,Taff or Paddy outside a unit with regional connections?None in the RAF or RN?
It was the 'British' armed forces in which I served,what about you?

[charliegolf]

Oh dear PJ,

You don't wanna go suggesting objectivity round here mate!

CG

[tucumseh]

It may be that the winning consortium do a fine job, but I find the involvement of QinetiQ, and the preferential treatment they so obviously receive from MoD, disturbing. I know industry “competitors” have been voicing this concern for some time – in fact predicted it from the day one – and even MPs are voicing disquiet now.

The simple fact is that, through many years of being automatically tasked (not contracted after a competition) to carry out work while part of MoD, QQ has inherited a vast array of Government funded knowledge. While MoD denies it, this clearly places them in an advantageous position when responding to invitations to tender. More so if MoD deny other bidders a level playing field by refusing to release this information during the tender process.

Some of this knowledge is obviously in the form of MoD decisions or direction as to what the solution to a given requirement should be. For example; companies may be invited to conduct research with a view to narrowing down a technical solution. Ordinary bidders may have to spread their effort over a wide range of solutions, whereas QQ may be privy to an MoD decision which has already rejected most candidate technologies – so their bid appears more focussed.

Those familiar with MoD research establishments will know that QQ and Dstl staff are often physically co-located. It is common for them to be ex-colleagues; when DERA was split one happens to have moved to QQ, the other to Dstl. Dstl often act as MoD bid assessors. Taking the above research example, it is entirely possible that the bid assessor has, in the past, actually made the decision on the solution which QQ are proposing. Is that fair to other bidders who have spent a lot of money formulating their bid?

It follows that, if a company wants to mount a serious bid, their chances of success increase if they partner with QQ. Put another way, the company who QQ choose to partner with has a better chance of winning. The logical conclusion is that MoD is abrogating its responsibilities and, in effect, QQ are on occasion selecting the winning contractors.

[mary_hinge]

"It may be that the winning consortium do a fine job, but I find the involvement of QinetiQ, and the preferential treatment they so obviously receive from MoD, disturbing. I know industry “competitors” have been voicing this concern for some time – in fact predicted it from the day one – and even MPs are voicing disquiet now."

As I posted earlier in the thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2958919&postcount=44

[teeteringhead]

Will it cost as much to demolish Cosford as they have spent on it over the last 10 years or so? ... don't think they'll bother ....

..... but you'd better ask the bunch of pongoes with tape measures who've been lurking in the layby just off Junction 3 of the M54 ......

.... the ones with signs saying "Stafford/Donington/Cosford SuperGarrison" on their cars.......;)

[Two_Squirrels]

Can I please attempt to defend QinetiQ a little. Leaving aside any possible Carlyle controversy etc, QinetiQ is about people, and the people who work within the organisation are some of the finest technical people in the country.

Also, QQ own/operate one of the finest military training establishments in the world, namely the Empire Test Pilots' School.

[Single Spey]

It may be that the winning consortium do a fine job, but I find the involvement of QinetiQ, and the preferential treatment they so obviously receive from MoD, disturbing.

You aren't perchance on the losing team, are you? :)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

For those with access; http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil.uk/DefenceIntranet/News/DefenceNews/MOD/DefenceTrainingReviewProgrammeMovesForward.htm

For those without;17/01/2007The Metrix consortium has been awarded Preferred Bidder status for package 1 and Provisional Preferred Bidder status for package 2 of the Defence Training Review programme, Defence Secretary Des Browne announced today, Wednesday 17 January 2007.
http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil.uk/DefenceIntranet/Templates/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/0DD174BC-42F4-40EA-841D-4F02A3CF03A7/0/20070116UDTR.jpg&maxSize=203 (http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil.uk/NR/rdonlyres/0DD174BC-42F4-40EA-841D-4F02A3CF03A7/0/20070116UDTR.jpg)An artist's impression of the new tri-service Defence Training campus at St. Athan [Picture: MOD]The DTR Programme will provide training that better meets the requirements of the front line by creating national centres of excellence for specialist training, through a programme of investment, rationalisation and modernisation.

St Athan, in the Vale of Glamorgan, South Wales, will be home to a new tri-service Defence Training campus.

Bidders were asked to select the sites that would best meet the Services' training requirements. We expect the anticipated solutions to eventually reduce the current defence training estate from about 30 current sites to about ten in the future, with a main campus to be located at St Athan.

Defence Secretary Des Browne said:"Our Service men and women deserve the best training we can offer them. The Defence Training Review is all about making the investment needed to modernise the way we train our people. It is about providing a more flexible, responsive and effective training system, and at the same time improve living and training accommodation for our people.

"This programme of investment, rationalisation and modernisation will draw together many small training units to create national centres of excellence for specialist trade training. Identifying the best outcome for the future of Defence training has been the driving factor behind the Defence Training Review."
The DTR programme comprises six specialist training streams, which have been separated into two contractual packages. Package One involves provision of training for engineering and communications. Package Two will provide training for logistics, security, policing and administration.
The DTR Programme will potentially affect some 3,400 military and 3,000 civilian instructors and support personnel and a standing population of some 11,000 Defence trainees.

The MOD Estate is under continuous review to ensure that it is the right size and quality to support the delivery of Defence capability. It is anticipated that there will continue to be a Defence use of both the Blandford and Cosford sites which will also continue to provide employment and income generation opportunities for the local regions of North Dorset and the West Midlands.

For Package One the proposal plans to rationalise the nine sites, on which this training is currently delivered, over a five year transition period starting from late 2008, to initially two major sites, St Athan and HMS Sultan, before further consolidating on a single main campus at St Athan. A small enclave will be retained at Bordon for REME vehicle recovery training and some communications training will continue to be delivered alongside Naval warfare training, itself outside the scope of this project, at HMS Collingwood.

Overall this will have a varying impact across nine sites: Arborfield, Bordon, Blandford, HMS Collingwood, Cosford, RAF Cranwell, RAF Digby, HMS Sultan and St Athan. The St Athan site will be largely a new build facility, which meets both sustainability and Lyons requirements. Marine Engineering training, currently delivered at HMS Sultan, Gosport, is anticipated to remain there until 2017 when it is planned to relocate to St Athan.

The scale of complexity related to Package Two is greater, and whilst the evaluation process identified Metrix as a clear winner we have significantly more work to do to resolve the outstanding issues and explore possible synergies which should deliver improved value for money. Until we have resolved these issues with the Bidder there is no certainty on the final approach that the MoD will take, including whether or not all or part of Package Two goes forward.

Package Two is expected to reduce the current number of training sites significantly, and these sites will be invested in, giving the best living and learning environment that we can provide for our service men and women. New technology and methods of teaching will be used to enable students to learn at their own pace; this will allow our most able soldiers, sailors and airmen to be trained and pass to the frontline commands more quickly, whilst others can be afforded the support to learn at a pace which suits them best.

At a Programme level there will be a reduction of military instructors posts and the majority of the MOD civilian staff will transfer to the Partner under TUPE regulations which fully protect existing terms and conditions.
More efficient use of our reduced training estate will enable us to make better use of existing funding. The capital investment available from a Partnering solution, will allow us to give our servicemen and women the best living and learning environment possible at all the major sites, including the large new build facility at St Athan.

Phase Two and Phase Three military specialist training will be delivered on a Defence rather than single-service basis to better meet joint operational requirements. Enhanced training will be achieved through new methods of teaching, the use of the latest technology, for example simulators, and flexible training techniques.

The MOD, via Senior Military Officers, will command and retain overall responsibility for the effectiveness of the training. Central to the Programme is the protection of our capability to retain the military ethos and culture of each of the Services in their people. This will be maintained by organising trainees in single Service (or cap badge) Houses. However, there is still the need to prepare all service personnel to train and work together and collocating training will expose our people to a joint environment at an early stage.

The greater flexibility of this new learning environment will enable Defence trainees to learn at a pace that suits their own ability; this will allow our most able soldiers, sailors and airmen to be trained and passed to Front Line Commands more quickly, whilst others can learn at a pace which best suits them.

As part of their training solutions, Bidders were asked to select the sites that would best meet MoD's training requirements. Locations were not prescribed by the Department. A fully comprehensive evaluation programme was undertaken from October 2005 to June 2006.
The winning bidder, the Metrix consortium, consists of Land Securities Trillium, QinetiQ, Raytheon/Nord Anglia, and EDS. Metrix won each package independently and separately. The evaluation of Bidders proposals, involving over 200 Subject Matter Experts, was overseen and audited by an independent assessor to give certainty of fair play. The Programme has also been scrutinised by the Office of Government Commerce (OGC) under their 'Gateway Review' process.

Staff at Defence Colleges have been briefed by their Commandants and further presentations or roadshows will be available. Staff will be able to meet the Preferred Bidder, find out more about the solution, how the process will move forward and how they may be affected. The Programme is supported by the Service Chiefs and the Single Services are being briefed on the Programme through their respective chains of command.
Following this announcement we now enter the negotiation phase which seeks to resolve a number of outstanding issues. These must be addressed before a contract can be signed, which is not expected before Autumn 2008.

The full text of Defence Secretary Des Browne's House of Commons announcement follows (checked against delivery):

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the Defence Training Review Rationalisation Programme. Before I do so, I am sure that the whole House will join me in extending their condolences to the friends and family of Marine Thomas Curry, Lance Corporal Mathew Ford and Kingsman Alexander Green who were killed in operations in Afghanistan and Iraq over the weekend and earlier this week.
Mr Speaker, in November 2004 the MOD issued Invitations to Negotiate for two contractual packages under the Defence Training Review Rationalisation Programme. The programme is a large and complex Public Private Partnership project seeking to transform the way we deliver six types of specialist training on a Defence wide basis to support better the future needs of the Armed Forces.

All bidders have put in strong bids. I am grateful to honourable members on all sides of the House, who have expressed such strong support for relevant bids. I can now report that, following a detailed evaluation process, the bids from the Metrix Consortium have been judged to offer the best technical and prospective value for money solutions to the DTR requirement for both Packages 1 and 2. As a result we are appointing Metrix as Preferred Bidder for Package 1 and Provisional Preferred Bidder for Package 2. Metrix have won each package independently and separately and we now plan to take forward negotiations with the consortium.

On 18 December, the MC3 consortium submitted an unsolicited last minute alternative proposal for Package 1. This proposal was considered, but was quickly discounted as failing to meet the requirements of the Invitation to Negotiate. As an unsolicited proposal it was also outside the rules of the competition.

I must emphasise that identifying the best training solution for Defence has been the primary consideration. The evaluation has involved some 200 subject matter experts. The training element was overseen by Professor Molyneux, an independent expert in modern training technology and e-learning.

For Package 1 we are confident that we have a broadly affordable solution that will deliver a modern and efficient Aeronautical Engineering, Electro-mechanical Engineering and Communications and Information Systems training. Currently, this is delivered at 9 locations involving some 3,500 military and civilian staff providing instruction to 6,500 Defence trainees at any one time. Over a 5 year transition period starting in late 2008, Metrix propose to rationalise the estate, initially onto two major sites, St Athan and HMS Sultan. Marine Engineering training will remain at HMS Sultan until 2017 when that also will relocate to St Athan. The St Athan site will be largely a new build facility.

A small enclave will, however, be retained at Bordon for vehicle recovery training and some communications training will continue to be delivered at HMS Collingwood. Overall this will have a varying impact across 9 sites: Arborfield, Bordon, Blandford, HMS Collingwood, Cosford, RAF Cranwell, RAF Digby, HMS Sultan and St Athan.

Package 2 is more complex. It aims to provide training for Logistics and Personnel Administration, Police and Guarding, Security, Languages Intelligence and Photography. Currently, this is delivered at 18 locations across the United Kingdom, involving some 2,900 military and civilian staff, and 4,500 trainees.

While the evaluation process identified Metrix as a clear winner for Package 2, we have more work to do to resolve the outstanding issues to address a significant affordability gap and to explore possible synergies with Package 1 which should deliver improved value for money across the Programme as a whole. Until we have resolved these issues with the Bidder we cannot confirm the final approach that the MoD will take, including whether all, or part of, Package 2 goes forward. However, it is only right that we inform the losing bidder that they have been unsuccessful.

Starting in late 2008, the current METRIX proposals would again see rationalisation onto St Athan over a 5 year period. However, all training currently undertaken at Leconfield, Wethersfield and a number of smaller federated units would remain at these sites. As would the majority of training currently delivered at Chicksands.

Together these proposals will embrace the very best training methods available today, in an environment designed for military learning. Full advantage will be taken of the latest technology for simulators and distributed learning solutions. The proposals will deliver top grade single living accommodation for all ranks, with single en-suite rooms for many. New recreational and sports facilities will enhance the quality of life for our trainees, staff and their families.

Mr Speaker, I take very seriously the implications of this change programme for our people. The impact is likely to be significant for those civilian staff required to transfer to the new Partner. They will, of course, be protected in full accordance with the TUPE regulations. However, some redundancies following transfer cannot, be ruled out. Should this be the case, this will be taken forward sensitively and in full consultation with Trades Unions and staff.

I do not underestimate how disappointed some members and their constituents will be where we are seeking to withdraw training establishments. This will be most keenly felt in the West Midlands at Cosford and in North Dorset at Blandford. Whilst not wishing to pre-empt any specific decisions, I am pleased to say that there are no plans to close either site. The current training at each would continue until 2011 and the Department is exploring a number of proposals for the potential future Defence use of both Cosford and Blandford. These will be announced subject to the normal review and approvals processes. In each case a military presence is expected to remain at these sites in the future. In this case Metrix propose building at Cosford a Learning Resource Centre, developing a National Training Research and Development Support Centre and with the Department examine how the Programme might support the establishment of the National Manufacturing Skills Academy.

Mr Speaker, it has been suggested that MOD has a conflict of interest by virtue of its minority shareholding in QinetiQ. This was recognised at the outset. It is not unusual for QinetiQ to be a member of a consortium bidding for MOD work, or a potential beneficiary as a subcontractor. We have therefore put in place stringent steps to separate the roles of customer and owner in relation to QinetiQ. These were made plain in the prospectus to investors when QinetiQ was floated on the stock market last year and a copy was placed at the time in the House Library. I am content that that the DTR evaluation process did not take improper account of the Qinetiq shareholding.

Mr Speaker, the Under Secretary of State and I have also written today to all Right Honourable and Honourable Members whose constituencies are affected by this announcement, with details of the changes as set out in the winning Bidders’ current proposals. As the way forward becomes clearer I will update the House. I have also made available a number of key documents, including the Invitations to Negotiate and Professor Molyneux’ letter validating the evaluation process, in the Library of the House.

Mr Speaker, I conclude by emphasising again that the bids from Metrix Consortium offered the best technical and value for money solutions to meet the future needs of Defence specialist training. As I stated earlier, we now plan to take forward negotiations over the coming months with the Metrix Consortium. This remains an extremely complex PPP programme and a number of significant issues remain to be resolved, particularly over the proposals for Package 2. I do not plan to make any further announcements until this work has been completed.

If anyone can explain what a "Lyons Requirement" is, I would be grateful.

[teeteringhead]

I see that photog (now at Cosford) seems to be included in Package 2, but not PTIs (also at Cosford) .... do they count as Personal Admin (surely HR!) or what?

Would seem a shame to lose all the sports facilities at Cosford and get tanks parked on them.....:hmm:

[monkeybumhead]

Is DTR lean? If not when will saints be having it's first RIE?

Tetering
I have heard that cranwell is going to be the new home for the wannabe jumping beans. That will mean a whole new building for the tanning salon and lots of new mirrors.

[LFFC]

If anyone can explain what a "Lyons Requirement" is, I would be grateful.

The Lyons Review (http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/consultations_and_legislation/lyons/consult_lyons_index.cfm)

Basically it's all about moving government establishments away from London and the South East.

Too bad about Innsworth/High Wycombe then!

[Truck2005]

Some may say that I am bias since I live here in S. Wales but the reaction from the Cosford bid is natural. It is no different than the reaction we had when the rug was pulled from under us with the Red Dragon Hanger.
Putting it in it's simpliest way no wants to lose, (if lose is the word).The contract had to go to someone and there will always be those that will be effected by the 'wrong' decision.
I stand in this dirty great £108Mill hanger and look at 5 FJ aircraft. Who the hell made that decision? The same bunch that made this one only the head honcho is different.
I am still in employment here and will be for some time to come with the 10s but, (no matter what anyone says), no one here will gain from this. I would suggest that all those in the posts at Cosford update their CVs and look to the future because you are the ones that will benefit. Gen up on the TUPE rules because, sure as hell, after the Tornado/Harrier-balls up by MOD, you WILL be asked to move or lose your VER.
Monkeybumhead
St. Athan has been running with lean for quite a few years. VMF is not only looked upon as a Lean business but as a bench mark by industry on Lean. (That is not DARA Borg speak, it came from the aviation industry themselves).
I suppose that this can be looked upon as a Military aircrew thread. (You break 'em, we fix 'em).

[ProfessionalStudent]

I have noticed already that the campaign to keep certain elements at Blandford and thus keep it open has started. I assume a similar one has started/will start for Cosford and others.

I bet not one base will close.:ugh:

[L1A2 discharged]

I have heard that cranwell is going to be the new home for the wannabe jumping beans. That will mean a whole new building for the tanning salon and lots of new mirrors.

By the time the move takes place there will be no direct entrant posing training required,:E replacements will be selected as per the green / dark blue system. :D