London City Thread

[Number Cruncher]

Do my eyes deceieve me, or at about 12.30 today did i see an aircraft resembling the above description (A319/737/Embraer) climbing out of London City R28?

[PIGDOG]

Isn't the new Embraer trying to get approval to make a 5 degree approach for London City?:8


check out:
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/embraer_170/


(Edited to add website)

[Fried_Chicken]

EMB170 PPXJB has been present at EGLC during the past few days, presumably for type certification at City

Fried Chicken

[Stan Sted]

Driving to London City airport this morning I saw what appeared to be an A319 taking off. It was certainly nothing like the usual jet airliners and biz jets that use the airport. The a/c was white, had no obvious company markings but had a dark blue fin. Ryanair up to something secretive perhaps? I have certainly heard rumours that Easyjet might be interested in operating from the East London airport.

[Gonzo]

Possibly an Embraer 170? I believe they're trying to certify the ERJ170 at City.

[Stan Sted]

Ah. That explains it. I had no idea EMB had produced an a/c with underwing engines. Must pay more attention and keep up with aviation developments.
Perhaps this thread had better be closed down or moved.

[Conc]

The Embraer 170 is down there for LCY certification testing. I was talking to one of the OPS guys at city a couple of weeks ago and he said that Airbus want to certify the A318 into City! Apparently the current limit is ground manouvering room.

[AlanM]

Yep - it did 9 ILS full stops yesterday lunchtime.

Not sure if it is still there/staying - I think that they have finished now. (Didn't have any go-arounds which is a good thing I guess!!)

[tyne]

Would it be possible to operate an A 319/320 from LCY?

What are the limitations apart from manouvering space there? Noise? Size of the a/c?


Rgds

Tyne

[WHBM]

It's there again this morning (Tuesday 3rd). Looks impressive to see something full-sized in there.

On a related topic I notice this on the LCY website :

"ScotAirways is set to introduce additional flights on its already successful Edinburgh to London City route with the imminent launch [Monday 9 May] of its first jet aircraft.

The introduction of the BAe 146 jet, which has a seating capacity of 80, will bring with it an additional daily return flight at key business travel times.

Departing from Edinburgh at 07.50 the new jet aircraft will return from London City at 17.15."

Seems unusual to do just one round trip a day and stand at LCY all day. Are they using someone else's aircraft - Euromanx maybe ?

[saman]

If my memory serves me well, Airbus showed the A318 performing steep approaches during the Farnborough show last year. So, I guess the steep approach thing is well underway so landing should be OK; its got the wing and engines of an A320 so it must have great take-off perfomance. All the A320 models are fairly quiet so I suppose that would be alright at lightish weights. Does anyone know if there are any plans to make a bigger apron at LCY?

[WHBM]

The only remaining expansion space at LCY is to the east of the terminal. A straightforward pier out of the terminal on that side, set further back from the runway allowing more manoeuvring space than the present stands (which were sized for Dash Sevens and are a squish even for 146s) would be the most effective.

Key problem is it is over the dock and therefore requires an expensive civil engineering job to fill this in, hard up against the terminal, although the bulk fill material could be brought in from the river by barge.

Anyone who has been there recently will know the mess that the DLR extension has created (and for something called "light rail" the viaducts appear to be sized for TGV trains !). Before long they may need to put a multi-storey structure onto the car park as well (which means you need space for a year or so for a temporary car park - the space for the terminal extension could be needed for this first). So potential building works for years to come.

[Fried_Chicken]

Key problem is it is over the dock and therefore requires an expensive civil engineering job to fill this in, hard up against the terminal, although the bulk fill material could be brought in from the river by barge.

Rather than fill it in, I believe they are looking at building a new apron on Stilts over the dock.

Are Swiss still getting some EMB170s? I know they originally wanted the aircraft to be LCY capable when they ordered it. Also, I believe LCY are talking to Alitalia (who have Emb170s) about launching services to City.

Fried Chicken

[Thunderball 2]

A318

I have from the horse's mouth that Airbus strongly wish to get the A318 cleared for LCY operations.

On slightly less good authority I believe Airbus contend that the 318 will offer greater range out of LCY than any other type, and will therefore open up an entirely new range of destinations.

So it would be a major plus for the 318 programme, in view of the difficulties with PW6000 power and the low overall level of airline interest in the type.

[AlanM]

This is the plan for the airfield by 2010.

The 28 hold is already complete of course.

http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/42952456.jpg

And interestingly, the 28 holding area is a steal platform. There are a few operator's who think that sitting on the metal at the hold for elongated periods is bad news for the nav kit on some craft.

[what who me?]

There are a few operator's who think that sitting on the metal at the hold for elongated periods is bad news for the nav kit on some craft.A few operator's what?

On a modern aircraft the only thing affected by the metal would be the standby compass. Nobody ever looks at that, so what's the problem?

[WHBM]

the 28 holding area is a steal platform. There are a few operator's who think that sitting on the metal at the hold for elongated periods is bad news for the nav kit on some craft. Reinforced concrete of the strength required for aircraft taxiways and runways is up to about 40% steel, as mesh and bar embedded in the concrete. You can't see it but it is in there. If it wasn't the concrete would be cracked in a day.

[AlanM]

It is the reason given for SID deviation when operators were asked for the reason they didn't fly the SID properly.

I didn't say I believed it!

[turnipgreen]

Did my eys deceive me or did Mrs Green and I see a helicopter land at LCY last night (Saturday). Ok, I had a few nice drinks at the Yi-Ban Chinese (Recommended for those who are in this area) but I had not drunk that much! LCY is closed at that time of night so I am guessing some kind of emergency for the helicopter or a medical emergency? Anyone know anything about this or did I really just have too many drinks??

[WHBM]

....I had a few nice drinks at the Yi-Ban Chinese (Recommended for those who are in this area)
A good place for a view of the airport. Make sure you know how to get there. And book one of the tables by the window for the view across the airport.

Mrs WHBM :) likes it too but I'm always disappointed, of course, when it's Saturday night and the airport is closed.

[AlanM]

No turnip - you were not P1$sed!! (well you may well of been.....)

A little white one did pop in for a few mins......

[possel]

I was amazed this afternoon to observe a Twin Otter on (probably amphibious) floats fly over the Isle of Dogs in East London and land on the eastern side, I think somewhere near the Excel exhibition centre or the Dome (I live on the western side so can only guess). Anyone got any further details?

[Monde]

It's a Greek Twin Otter SX-BVP , expected to be on dock by the Excel Centre until Wednesday! Hope the LCY arrivals will be on 10 this week - should get a great view of it!
M

[Fried_Chicken]

I noticed a DHC6 Twin Otter on floats actually on the water next to LCY tonight? Did this land on the water or was it dragged up the Thames. I think its for some display at the Excel rather than a new (floatplane) service from LCY

Fried Chicken

[HS-125]

Fried Chicken,

It landed, flew down runway 24, and got very low over the Jet Centre, had a great view! I believe it's here until the end of the week.

[AlanM]

It is here for the Greek Government I believe, as part of the travel exhibition at the Excel.
(runway 24!?!?!?!)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

So... where's the best place for "Joe Public" to see it please? My wife and I would sure like to see a Greek Twin Otter.

[WHBM]

HD :

It sounds like it is next to the Excel Centre. You can walk right along the dockside all past the centre. Take the Docklands Light Railway to Custom House/Excel, walk past the Excel entrance to the dockside from where you can look up and down to see where it is. It's all open access.

I wonder where it actually landed (not clear so far). The Excel is on the long Victoria Dock but there's a footbridge across it halfway along.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Thanks WHBM. We'll be driving from Berkshire so will check on car parking, etc. Never been on the light railway so that could be an experience too!

[hobie]

I can see it ....... :)

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=SX-BVP&distinct_entry=true

Some shots with a London background would be something!!!! .....

[AlanM]

WHBM - yes it landed on that water - avoiding that bridge!

HD - send me some pics when you get them!!! :)

Back in to work tomorrow so will find out when she is flying again.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Alan.. Wildo, if only to give u a larf!!

To give Ruth and me an evens chance, probably on Wednesday.... is this flying machine parked on the Thames or in the Royal Victoria Dock?

[The SSK]

Never been on the light railway so that could be an experience too!

Make sure you sit at the front.

[WHBM]

is this flying machine parked on the Thames or in the Royal Victoria Dock?
Unless I'm mistaken it's here (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=541105&y=180615&z=2&sv=541105,180615&st=4&ar=Y)

I can remember a (land-based) DHC-6 doing a few flights out of LCY in its very early days, the operator was Brymon. It had a noticeably noisy departure sound but nevertheless got clearance to operate in/out, although I don't believe any scheduled operator used it.

[AlanM]

WHBM - that is where I am led to believe it is. (At least that was the plan on the paperwork!!!) The approach over the Connaught Bridge would have been fun!

HD - I am sure your pics are brilliant as always. Will re-read the TOI at work and quiz ops to get some movement info tomorrow.

HD - why not go and visit LCY tower>????? I am sure we can sort something out.

[V800]

Unless you have a ticket for the show the best place to see it is the East door to ExCel or from the bridge over Royal Victoria Dock.http://www.petermcsorley.com/sx-bvp_800bridge.jpg
http://www.petermcsorley.com/sx-bvp_2113.jpg
Owing to the footbridge it will probably go through the swing bridge to the dock north of LCY. From there it can either take off from the water or be lifted into the airport like they do for maintenance in Corfu.

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5618465

[WHBM]

I've edited the link in my post above to give a more accurate position for where it is according to these photographs. The walkway behind the aircraft is a public footpath along the dock edge.

I would think it was unlikely the aircraft could be taken through the swingbridge towards LCY as I don't think the wingspan would fit the distance between the dock walls at that point. But if you look at the lower picture it can have a good run down the water from either direction, pass well beneath the high-level footbridge, and lift off after passing underneath.

[AlanM]

Great pics - thanks.

[V800]

The walkway behind the aicraft has temporary fences in place guarded by goons in high viz jackets. The only access is via the exhibition centre with a ticket for the show.

Going by the size of some of the boats they have in that dock the swing bridge carrying Connaught Rd is wide enough for a twotter.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

So... do I take it that Joe Public cannot see the Twin Otter as I have no intention of paying to go into the show?

[V800]

Joe Public can get to both the locations I shot my pictures from this morning without a ticket. The temporary fence is just behind the aircraft which is parked at the eastern end of the building.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Very many thanks V800 - we're going to venture forth on Wednesday and take a chance. Not everyday one can see a Greek Twin Otter.

[WHBM]

HD :

The first photo is taken off the high level bridge you can see in the background of the second photo - obviously with a very long lens ! You can get to this bridge from the Custom House DLR station, just walk towards the dock. The bridge, shown on the linked map, is an interesting experience in its own right.

The vessel in the background of the first picture is the Sunborn Yacht Hotel, a prominent part of the scene. You can go aboard to the restaurant/bar etc, and you may find that the decks visible behind the aircraft offer a good view as well if you can work out how to get there. If the walkway along the dock has been closed you can take the DLR one station east to Prince Regent and walk over to the Sunborn from there.

One station further east again is Royal Albert and this offers the best view of the LCY apron.

[GBALU53]

The Twin Otter arrived in Jersey on friday afternoon arriving from France.

The aircraft departed Sunday lunch time heading for landing on the Thames near London City but due weather it diverted to Southend.

I think the reason for it to be at the docklands is due to the World travel mart being held at the big exibition hall near by, so maybe the company has one of the stands there dont know if there will be any flights with the aircraft.

[hobie]

Not everyday one can see a Greek Twotter!

I like that quote ..... :p

[AlanM]

and here she is at Biggin today....

http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/69910060.jpg

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Now that REALLY makes me want to slash my wrists!! It was close to Biggin that we opted to leave the M25 and come home. We could easily have whizzed in. Oh well.. saves a trip on Friday. We did have a consolation prize though....
http://www.brendan-mccartney.fotopic.net/p35924849.html

Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice - all much appreciated.

[Bright-Ling]

Great pics chaps.

HD/AlanM - any more pics????

B-L:O

[hobie]

and here she is at Biggin today....

She looks a lot better in the water ....... :)

[ELondonPax]

The local paper for Canary Wharf has picked up the story. Seems the promoter wants to run a passenger service for the Olympics……

The link to the print story is below. If you get hold of the printed version of the paper, they also have an excellent photo of the plane landing. (Unfortunately, the on-line version doesn’t seem to carry the photograph). It may just be a trick of the lens, but the landing looks very close to the Connaught Bridge.

http://icthewharf.icnetwork.co.uk/thewharf/headlines/tm_headline=seaplane-operator-looks-to-introduce-thames-flights-for-2012%26method=full%26objectid=18065606%26siteid=71670-name_page.html#story_continue

[WHBM]

It may just be a trick of the lens, but the landing looks very close to the Connaught Bridge.
Well landings on LCY 10 aren't far above the bridge either ! Interesting to be upstairs in a double-deck bus crossing the bridge with one on short finals.

[BOAC]

I'm really not sure that folk will come to the London City thread to find details of HD's Thames transport or Catalina pics so I have split these off to http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=252289

[readywhenreaching]

just got word that last week a Swiss Avro (HB-IYU) was involved in a heavy landing at London-City resulting in significant damage to its undercarriage/or structural integrity.

can anyone shed light or gave some more precise details ?

thx in advance

[WHBM]

See the LCY thread on Airlines Airports and Routes.

[bla]

On Saturday, August 18 an AVRO RJ100, experienced a tail strike during landing, causing damage to the underside of the aft fuselage. Disembarkation after landing was normal and no injuries to passengers or crew occurred. The aircraft was technically grounded for a detailed inspection. No other operations at the airport were affected.

[flying phil 2007]

thanks for the info.
I wondered why it was parked at the Jet Centre...
http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=053236

I see they have covered up the registration...(why bother?)


:ok: another Pic
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6054107

parked in the fire training area.

[readywhenreaching]

already noticed by swiss BFU:
http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/HB-IYU.pdf

[Alanwsg]

I was on that plane, bloody well hurt my neck.

[Newforest]

No you didn't, accident report says no injuries!:rolleyes:

[airmen]

Apparent damage about 1m. width x 3m.long aft underbody scratch with skin partly removed and water waste antenna torn off. No other visible damage...

[captphil]

How long will it be there one asks??? 3 Months some say, its causing dalays in the peak hours now. Business people won't be happy.:rolleyes:

[MFALK]

When an Afghan Airbus went off the runway at LTBA a little while ago and it proved difficult to move, the airport authorities just hacked it up to get it out of the way. Considering the value (or lack thereof) of the RJ hulls could this Jumbolino go the same way? :)

[Skipness One Echo]

There's nowhere else to park it I'm afraid unless they shove it over the side and into the dock (!)

[MaxReheat]

Well, the place is often referred to as 'HMS London City' and tipping wrecks overboard was an every-day SOP in carrier ops!

[Mister Geezer]

Don't think it will be leaving LCY by air!

[remoak]

Had this happen a few years ago to a flybe 146 (although possibly not as bad as this one). We ended up ferrying it out to Exeter unpressurised. It's a pretty tough structure, having said that you have to be careful when the ribs and stringers are damaged near the tail.

Probably not a good idea to scrap it, RJs are currently in quite high demand (although 146s are on the way out now, it seems).

[Cyrano]

Not quite sure how it is causing delays to other aircraft? Please explain how this is, as I can't see from where it is parked to cause other effects.

LCY is heavily ramp-constrained, so if an aircraft goes tech it ends up blocking a stand and causing delays unless it can be towed off stand into a contingency parking place. There are not many contingency parking spots at LCY, and the Swiss RJ is occupying one. So its presence doesn't cause delays as long as everything else is running perfectly, but it exacerbates the delays that may occur if other aircraft go tech.

C.

[operationsair]

During peak times its highy unlikely that a tech a.c on a stand will be get a chance to be towed due to the stream of a.c on the taxi way or entering or exiting the Jet center.

However supose it would cause problems the next morning etc.

What are the options they have for this aircraft? its obvious that the a.c isn't going to be flown out . . .

:=

[WHBM]

Some strange comments here.

Came through LCY 8 pm last night and it was still all-stands full, unusual well into the evening. But that was nothing to do with the incident aircraft, which is shoved into the far corner by the fire trainer where AOG aircraft are always put.

From the taxyways and from the road there seems no visible damage to the aircraft so it would be unlikely to be unrepairable.

[operationsair]

Tail strike the damage would be under the aircraft wouldn't it. Therefore the damage wouldn't be seen.

[captphil]

Stories have it that it will be moved, and then a hangar built over it ,and it could be there for 3 months.......Hope not!:bored:

[gofer]

More a problem for LCY parking than for swiss - rumour has it they only have crews for 13 of the 22 they have - at least at LCY its not paying parking elsewhere but a case for the insurance funds:ugh:!

[operationsair]

I'm sure LCY Ops are charging Swiss for the parking arrangements.

Friend of mine who works in the Hotel opposite says the aircraft has had the "Swiss" part of the a.c covered over now also.

[Mister Geezer]

From the taxyways and from the road there seems no visible damage to the aircraft so it would be unlikely to be unrepairable.

It seems as if you would need to be up close to appreciate the severity of the damage to her! I have been told that the structural damage is quite extensive and if they elect to repair her and get her flying again then we will be talking months rather than weeks of work. Furthermore, LCY is not the place for heavy maintenance which will not help matters!

[operationsair]

Where else could they move it at LCY. I exspect they have spoken about the possibilty of using a stand for the duration and covering cost, but this would be ££££. They seem buggered, hense how no work has been done for one week now.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Didn't anyone anticipate that sooner or later an aircraft would be disabled at LCY ? Wasn't there a plan ?

[gofer]

Interesting problems

Is a parked plane negative advertising or just no problem?

How to fix it and what comes cheaper in the end - disassemble into road haulage chunks and take to somewhere else to fix or scrap for spares - fix it pronto on-site (3-shift working with an inflateable hangar ) - or risk flying it out ? What would be your choice - and does anybody really know just how bad the real damage is?

Watch this space:ouch:


P.S.: How's about a ruddy great Barge alongside the airport and tow it across onto said barge - then it can be floated off to wherever - problem here is probably to find a wherever to unload the bloody thing where it can be repaired.:yuk: but the parking bill might be lower!:)

[ciderman]

Didn't anyone think of this problem when they designed a short strip with a 5.5% glide slope? Someone. sometime was going to smack a tail. Putting bigger and bigger aircraft in there ( ie the RJ100/146-300) only precipitates the inevitable. Didn't they think that it might, just might, be impossible to fly them out sooner rather than later?

[Chef]

heard on the street 20 frames or so are damaged, will need to be jacked up as the a/c cannot position out at all.

latest is the aircraft may be put onto a barge & placed over on the prepared surface where the redbull area was for the 3 months or so to repair it. The airport are very reluctant to let them have a stand for that long to then put a temp hangar over it.

watch this space.

[perkin]

Would it not be possible (perhaps its uneconomical to do so) to remove the wings and stick it on a low loader to remove to a more suitable maintenance establishment? With the wings off it wouldnt be especially wide...

[Dash-7 lover]

Not that it's any help but it's ex BA Citiexpress GCFAC!

[Phil Space]

Thought it might have been one of your fast approches CaptPhil:)

[airbus.skydriver]

Chances are that after Bae take a look at it, a one off concession will be granted for unpressurised flight to maintenance base. Dependent upon scale of damage.

[captphil]

1st Gear all the way Honest...... Mr Space.:8

[Mister Geezer]

Chances are that after Bae take a look at it, a one off concession will be granted for unpressurised flight to maintenance base. Dependent upon scale of damage.

Mmmm can't see that taking place. I heard that the ground staff in LCY had difficulty in opening the rear hold door which gives you an idea of the structural damage!

[captain Bilko]

Wings off, road out ££££ not a chance ! Only option is repair at LCY.

[Alanwsg]

Mmmm can't see that taking place. I heard that the ground staff in LCY had difficulty in opening the rear hold door which gives you an idea of the structural damage!
Oh, that's interesting,
As I said, I was on this flight. We had a long wait for our bags and I overheard some staff talking about a buckled hold door that couldn't be opened. Thought they were joking about it at the time.

[Parapunter]

Okay, Who've I gotta bribe to get the haulage?

[Airways B]

OUCH!! (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/08/31/216374/exclusive-pictures-damage-to-swiss-airs-rj100-after-hard-landing-at-london-city.html)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nil further]

Flybe/Jersey did the same thing about six years ago .I ferried the damgade un out un-presssurised.

If i remember correctly was only two or three frames damaged.

There should be an AAIB report about it somewhere.

[WHBM]

Walked over from the house and had a look at it from landside today. All the Swiss markings have been expunged by the simple expedient of covering them with blue plastic stuck down with orange hi-speed tape. Most unprofessional. Notably all the Swiss markings are thus removed but none of the Star Alliance ones, an interesting comment by Swiss about Star Alliance maybe.

There's been a Cityjet Avro (one of their new ones) also AOG for the last few days, pushed up to within a few feet of the Swiss, which makes an easy comparison. There's a mark from the tailstrike which if you didn't know you would probably think was dirt. That's it. Can't see the insurers writing it off for that.

If you want to go and see for yourself the best viewpoint is from the pavement at the Connaught Bridge roundabout, beyond the Jet Centre, when you will see it directly tail-on.

[Sam-MAN]

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=19083
Picture from flight global, whoops!

[cmf146]

A few points to perhaps consider when discussing the possible removal of this aircraft from LCY. The wings are in one piece with a span of 26.34mtrs, not easy to remove or transport. As has already been said, and the recently published photo would seem to confirm, the rear baggage door is hard to open and many internal frames are cracked so the fuselage maybe twisted. The last time this much damage was caused to a 146-300, it took a full six months to repair in a fully fitted hangar.

[BEagle]

From Flight International:

"The aircraft, a seven-year old example registered HB-IYU, had been operating a service from Geneva with 93 passengers and crew when it arrived."

Absolutely accurate - definitely an 'arrival' rather than a 'landing'!

[WHBM]

For those following this one, the aircraft has been dragged this weekend across the 10 undershoot to be within a couple of feet of the fire trainer (and thereby seeming to prevent the use of the fire trainer). Never seen an aircraft on this hardstanding before.

It's sat tail-towards the 10 threshhold, right up against the final set of approach lights, those on finals are going to get a VERY close view of it. Maybe only westerlies are forecast in the weeks ahead !

London City seems to be having a hard time with AOG aircraft currently. A Lufthansa Regional ATR-42 has been stuck here for the weekend as well.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Very refreshing to read so much written by so many people who don't know what they're talking about (and who have nothing but a passing fatuous interest in the topic under discussion).

Thanks guys!

[Red Four]

Interesting that the aircraft was previously.....G-CFAC.
Remember the tailscrape on 26 August 2003? G-CFAD. (AAIB #2 of 2005)
Remember the tailscrape on 7 January 2005? G-CFAA. (AAIB #4 of 2006).
Now what would a mature airport SMS be saying after the latest incident. Would it be, lets apply to increase the number of flights to 120,000 (from 80,000 presently), and encourage more jet operations and bigger aircraft to operate wherever possible?:rolleyes:

[Kit d'Rection KG]

... and within minutes, there's another one (Red Four).

Aircraft size [does not equate to] tailstrike probability.

When I talk to (other) professional pilots, I'm often astonished at their lack of basic knowledge...

Perhaps they're all too busy reading and posting here to bother with little things like maintaining their standards..?

operationsair, I'm puzzled by your "Keep quite" remark... Good job you're not in a job where the ability to communicate effectively and succinctly are requisites, don't you think?

:ugh:

[operationsair]

Size surely effects landing preformance? Size and weight factors, heavy landings etc.

Larger a/c being larger, meaning they carry more weight, but having to land in the same area/distance as an F50, these factors wil surely increase the risk of tail scrapes, its rare you hear about F50s, D328s ATRs etc tail scraping.

Whereas RJ/146s exsperiance their fair share.

One thing I have noticed, RJ/146s are lower to the ground than other aircraft, the A318 is much heigher from the ground, so just going on size will cause more trail strikes isn't 100% fair to go by.

But size/weight issues will effect this.

[saman]

All things being equal, more weight leads to more runway requiremnt. BUT all is very far from equal in differing aircraft designs.
Can I suggest that such items as wing loading (Mass/wing area), High lift device (slat and flap) design and efficiency, geometrically allowable rotation angles and thrust-to-weight ratios have a bit of an influence on performace and tail 'strikabilty' and that generalising by saying that 'bigger & heavier must be badder' is not very helpful.
A stretched fuselage on a smallish wing with a low rotation angle is very different to a smallish fuselage on a relatively big wing with a high available rotation angle - even if the required angle of attack differs due to high lift device design.
Every case is different and needs to be treated on its own merits - IMHO.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

its rare you hear about F50s, D328s ATRs etc tail scraping.

Well, YOU might only rarely hear of it.

If you don't keep abreast of the proper channels through which incidents and accidents are publicised...

[captphil]

Hey Kit did YOU get out of the bed the wrong side today??:*

It's only an email forum,,Calm down

[Squark7000]

Larger aircraft do not automatically mean that a tail strike is more likely to happen. However, stretched versions within an aircraft type can be at greater risk. Thus, the Avro RJ100 will have a greater risk then the RJ70, with the RJ85 being in the middle for tail strike risk. The A318, due to fact that it is the shortest member of the A320 family will have a low risk of a tail strike. By the same logic. the short version of the jumbo, the B747-100SP will also have a low risk of a tail strike.
I think the Q400 has also had its moments due to it length.
Squart7000

[panda-k-bear]

Ok, time for a school physics lesson. KE=0.5MV(sq). When you land, brakes are used to bleed off Kinetic Energy (KE). M is Mass - of the aircraft in this case and Vsq) is the square of the velocity - of the aircraft in this case. And so, operationsair, what we learn is that, in fact, approach velocity has a much bigger impact than aircraft weight on aircraft landing performance. Given that a bigger aircraft such as the A318 usually has a bigger wing and thus "more" (or bigger) high-lift devices and spoilers, it's approach speed will be relatively low. Mass has an impact (no pun intended), sure it does, but KE varies with the square of speed.... Aircraft brakes are also dimensioned for the size, weight and speed of the aircraft... as saman says, all things are definitely not equal. I don't really know the capabilities of the A318 in much detail but I'm guessing it has much bigger brakes than an RJ100. Oh, and it has thrust reversers, too......

[captphil]

Some people are getting way off line on this thread as usual. We don't need another lesson in aerodynamics we need to find a solution to this problem at LCY
My mate (starling one) reckons it should be the mounted as the new Gate Gardian at LCY.
Comments please ....:)

[Squark7000]

Captphil
The solution to the problem of tail strikes at LCY = Remind the cockpit crews that if the approach goes AWOL, - go around and try again. No one gets it right everytime, especially at somewhere like LCY where the margins for error for very small due to the steep approach angle and limited runway length.

[Phil Space]

Nice to know you have such experience of London CityKit d'Rection KG:D
Perhaps you can tell us how to do a proper landing:ugh:

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Phil Space,

Yes, thanks, I have...

Many happy memories! :):)

Won't bother you about landings, though... Like all the others, you're clearly expert already! :bored::bored:

...and as for which side of bed, it's always the same side, after Mrs Kit has brought me my marmite on toast and second mug of coffee (she's a truly wonderful woman...). At least she doesn't try to talk like an expert about things she doesn't have the first genuine clue about! :D:D:D:D:D:D

[False Capture]

Squawk 7000,

It's all very well saying "go around and try again" but you can still scrape a tail if you carry-out the standard go-around at low level (below 50 feet) due to the high rate of descent associated with a steep (5.5˚) approach.

A scrape will occur at 6.9˚ nose-up on an RJ100 (8.3˚ nose-up on the RJ85) with the oleos fully compressed. Bearing in mind, at 50 feet the rate of descent will still be in the order of 850 feet/min. As a result, initial LCY qualification should include a low-level go-around below 50 feet. When I flew the RJ100 we limited the low-level go-around to an initial attitude of 5˚ nose-up instead of the normal attitude of 10˚ nose-up.

As you say, there's little margin for error with an RJ100 at LCY.

[captphil]

Seat of the pants,, correct speed,, and on before the lights,, it's getting harder by the day with all the new builds. Still!!! That's what's flyings all about...:)

[panda-k-bear]

Actually, captphil, there are people here who do seem to need reminding of the basics of flight physics as they seem to believe that an aircraft that carries more passengers necessarily has worse field performance than one that carries less passengers - independent of the configuration of the aircraft.

One would hasten to venture that these persons are not pilots.

And if they are, they are certainly not very professional :ugh:

p-k-b

[ChristiaanJ]

CaptPhil,
I thought your original question was:
"How do you get a knocked-up RJ100 out of LCY?"

Any news on that subject?

[ground_star]

"How do you get a knocked-up RJ100 out of LCY?"

In pieces? Pieces In a skip?

[ChristiaanJ]

ground_star,
I was going to suggest chopping off the nose and selling that on eBay : "Buyer Collects". ;)

But IF it can't be repaired, you can be sure it will be stripped and picked clean of any and all useable spares, before the remainder is JCB'ed and dropped in a skip.

[the bald eagle]

Let the fire department torch it & then put it out for practice then sling it in the thames:E

Has anyone bothered to ask the crew for what their excuse was for
f:mad:ing this one up royally?

[Akuma]

yep we did for some fun reason or much better we did due to our pilot shortage in the regio fleet, so that the newspapers cannot write any longer, that there are every day 4 avros on ground and btw we did for extra because we don't like to fly to lcy....:ugh::ugh::ugh::* how funny

[flying phil 2007]

They have parked it right next to the fire training area. Doubt the firefighters will be too pleased.

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6054107

You can see the scrape on the underside, if you know where to look. Looks like it might be there for a while.

They must have landed at a high angle of attack to manage to scrape the tail.! ?

[ChristiaanJ]

Akuma, welcome.
As a newcomer..... relax !

We don't think a tailstrike is funny as such.
We don't think deciding how to get a seriously damaged RJ out of LCY is easy... or funny as such.

It doesn't stop us from keeping a sense of humour.

[Routair]

Any up to date info on this subject? :O

[AlanM]

I heard that they may put it on a barge, float it across to the Red Bull Runway and work on it there. Such is the demand for space at LCY.

(It has been blocking the 10 Glidepath too)

[Routair]

Cheers for the update Alan :)

[operationsair]

Define blocking the G/P.

Good job pilots now days are trained to carry out DME approaches. OR Visuals for that argument

[WHBM]

Why on earth has it been moved to a position blocking the glidepath ?

Would it make any difference if it had been positioned the other way round ? Sort of counter-intuitive to have parked it with its tail sticking up into the 10 approach like it has been.

Been lucky with the weather so far, but September is traditionally the month when autumn mists and LVPs start.

[PAPI-74]

Was that the reason the GP was U/S yesterday on R10?
I didn't bother asking a reason.

[HeliCraig]

Anyone have any further update on this a/c?

[Akuma]

Even inside the company it's only known that it will take a "little" bit bit longer to bring back the a/c in flight condition, no dates have been published, no idea how and where to do it. it was only said that BAE will strongly support and that a special agreement with the airport has been established.... We know nothing as well....:(

[Akuma]

Today I received the message that it will definately repaired, but it will take up to 14-16 weeks. At the moment they have the intention to ship the Avro across the river.... Sorry, this is all which was communicated. No idea when they will start.

[Buzz Control]

More information here (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/09/21/216951/swiss-to-remove-damaged-avro-rj100-on-floating-pontoon-at-london-city.html)

[ELondonPax]

It is being loaded onto the barge this afternoon.

[AHA2218]

Isn't that the same a/c that went for a leisuely stroll @ bhx a few xmas's ago?

[Dan Winterland]

The RJ100 is longer than the 146 from which it was developed. Traditionally, if you lengthen an aircraft you make it vulnerable to tail strikes. The A20 vs A321 is a case in point. 321 tailstrikes are relatively common compared to the 320. Interestingly, the accident statistics show that it's on landing (as with this RJ100) they tend to occur and not on rotation.

[Alpine Flyer]

On rotation a tail-strike happens more or less only with single-engine ops, as the general upward movement of the A/C will lift the tail out of harm's way for all but the most hearty "tugs" on the wheel. On landing, everything is moving downwards....:ouch:
The only one I remember at our operation was in a DH8-300 at idle power which was flared for too long. I am glad I never saw the "touched runway" caution light (which wasn't resettable BTW :E)

[Dani]

A lot of half-truths here - is this spectator's balcony?

Dan, the Avro RJ100 has the same length as the 146-300.

RJ85=200
RJ75=100

AF, Tailstrike can happen in any situation if your tail is lower than your lowest gear, has nothing to do with OEI (one engine out). This can happen if you overrotate (pull too much), if you fly too slow or wrong configuration (need more angle to get enough lift to stay aloft).

LCY is an extreme approach with roughly double the approach angle as any normal ILS. You approach faster to the ground, you have to rotate faster, if you miss the right point, you get a hard landing or you flare too long. There are special installations and procedures in place to conteract those problems, but basically it is a tick more difficult to land there, especially in windy conditions.

Dani

[BOAC]

A lot of half-truths here - is this spectator's balcony? - PPP and I will take that in the spirit in which it was delivered....:)

To back up Dani's point on approach angle - many years ago I recall a trial at RAF Leuchars on R09 (Phantoms and Lightnings) to fly (I think) a 3.5 degree ILS (normally 2.5) to improve the DH which was terrain driven. The BIG problem was the rotation required at the flare to arrest the higher rate of descent, and therein can lie the catch where a touch too much and bang. The Lightning was especially prone to tailscraping if rotated too much and a tailscrape used to sever the brake chute cables which would then fall in a neat pack onto the runway when deployed:).

NB Some of the facts in that trial may have been clouded by time, but I recall it was not continued.

[safetypee]

Dani, re your …”you have to rotate faster, …”
Not quite correct; in order to reduce the rate of descent the wings have to generate more lift, normally by increasing alpha. An aircraft’s flare characteristics are a combination of lift change for change in alpha and the ability to generate a change in alpha, the attitude (amongst other things).
The 146/RJ wing has excellent lift-change characteristics and responsive controls, thus these increase the lift quickly and enable the 146/RJ to be flared from relatively low altitudes.
The 146-300/RJ100 has a longer tail arm and therefore more responsive control (but offset by inertia and other complexities such higher operating weights and control friction (longer control run)); thus in theory the longer aircraft could flare at a lower altitude, but in practice the combination of increased pitch rate and lower tail position for the same attitude result in less capability (you can rotate to far, too fast). Note that the long aircraft are only cleared to 5.5 deg, vs the short aircraft 6 deg approach (AFM limitations), and have a zero tailwind limit. Steep approaches enable reduced landing distance from the combined effect of the GS geometry and reduced time during the flare.

RE … “There are special installations and procedures in place to counteract those problems, but basically it is a tick … “
You should justify these points. I do not know of any special installations or tricks associated with the 146/RJ at LCY. The aircraft has full certification for steep operations (first jet certification) and had to be demonstrated as not requiring exceptional skill or effort (perhaps a bit more concentration than normal). The only special aspects at LCY are the quality of the ILS GS beam to safeguard the obstacle clearance over Canary Warf, and the need to use a precision GS (ILS or visual PAPI). There are also the very sensible ‘fixed-distance’ landing markers which can be used to judge the safety margins during landing; these can be used by all aircraft types.

[Alpine Flyer]

@Dani: I did not want to imply that you can't strike during take-off, it is just a lot less likely unless you really haul the house size controller way too quickly/far back.

Rumour has it that we'll also fly to LCY in the not too distant future, so I hope to be able to judge myself.

[Ed666]

Swiss to repair hard landing-damaged Avro RJ100
Victoria Moores, Zurich (21Sep07, 18:17 GMT, 240 words)

Swiss International Air Lines and its insurers have decided to repair the BAE Systems Avro RJ100 which was heavily damaged in a hard landing incident at London City airport last month.

The aircraft is a seven-year old example registered HB-IYU owned by Zurich-based Anson Aircraft. It was operating from Geneva with 93 passengers and crew when it made the hard landing on 18 August.

A Swiss International Air Lines spokesman says: “The final decision has been taken to repair it.”

Early evaluations suggest that the repair work will take approximately 14 weeks, says the spokesman, although he declines to comment on the cost of the work.

He says the aircraft suffered a tail scrape, cracks and severe damage during the landing, but declined to comment further on the cause which is subject to an ongoing investigation.

Due to space and maintenance constraints at London City airport, which is located on the river Thames, the aircraft must be moved off-airport to perform the repair work.

The spokesman says it will soon be towed onto a marine pontoon and floated a short distance along the river to the north Royal Dock area.

“Security-wise everything is being prepared. We are going to build a special hangar for the aircraft,” he says. “The exact date for the move is not yet known, but we will perform the repair on the spot. The aircraft has been released; we can do what we want with it.”

Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

[safetypee]

There have been several takeoff tail scrapes in the RJ100, noticeably associated with upgrade training from aircraft with markedly different rotation characteristics e.g. ATR transition to RJ.
Less experienced pilots may rotate ‘enthusiastically’ or not consider a takeoff check attitude, instead they aim for the FD which is really only valid when airborne (V2+10, or V2 [or whatever you have when the engine fails]). The RJ is possibly unique in that you can generate a high pitch rate which is sufficient to lift the wheels off and then scrape the tail when airborne!

[flying phil 2007]

they have now moved it off the airfield.
Apparently floated it across the dock on a barge.
It is now sitting on the Red Bull temporary airstrip.
Any pictures ? ?

[WHBM]

Just to correct several comments (including it appears official ones) that the aircraft has moved "across the river", it has not entered the River Thames at all. It has been barged across the Royal Albert Dock, which is the one to the north of the LCY runway. It is opposite approximately the midpoint of the runway.

I do not know of any special installations or tricks associated with the 146/RJ at LCY.
I think you will find the 146 comes down the whole final approach with its rear fuselage airbrakes deployed. This is different to any other approach I have seen them do elsewhere where they are usually deployed just as coming over the threshhold.

[Skipness One Echo]

Hmmm abandoned airliner in East London. Bet it's up on bricks by the end of the week.....

[Airways B]

Video of the move (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/09/24/216951/pictures-swiss-has-removed-damaged-avro-rj100-on-floating-pontoon-at-london-city.html)

[brain fade]

Somebody earlier suggested no special skills are required for the 'steep app' stuff at LCY.

Well, I'm not long on line right enough, but I thought it quite a bit different from normal 3 degree ops. Add in a bit of weather and it can get quite involving.

Great fun tho and satisfying if you make a nice job of it.:ok:

[safetypee]

bf, the discussion was on special procedures not skill per se, but that not to say that additional skills are not required. Skills for most aspects of flying have to be developed, steep approaches requires a subset of these involving visual judgement, acclimatising to higher descent rates, etc. Approaching LCY in a Southerly crosswind and at night, requires other skills – preferably not to be rostered on those flights!

WHBM, the airbrake out procedure is required specifically for steep approaches, but at other times it is optional. The recommended airbrake use during normal landing just happened to provide the required speed loss when approaching the threshold, but it can be selected at any time.
I recall that RJ specific ‘super fail passive’ Cat 3 operations required A/B out after GS capture as it provided slightly improved pitch stability and removed the opportunity for a destabilising A/B selection vs autothrust adjustment during the approach.

[PAPI-74]

So I am told......
There is a barge in the docks to take the 146 away. They will have to tug it over to the edge and crane in over......I assume in pieces.:D

[Nyquist77]

Hi

Yesterday i flew in to London City (EGLC) runway 28. Just as we came over the runway threshold i saw what looked like a BAE Avro 146 parked on the other side of the water next to a white modern building north of the runway. I'm not sure of the airline as I only got a chance to see if for a brief moment. it had predominantly white fuselage and a blue tail. It had it's engines covered with Orange covers.

Does anyone know how it got there as there is no way that i know of to taxi to that position? I dont even think its part of the airport? What is it doing there?

Thanks

[Phileas Fogg]

Yes,
It is a Swiss Avro and it has been in the way as LCY since it seriously tailscraped a few weeks ago, have a read:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=289698

[Off Stand]

It belongs to SWISS, had a hard landing a while ago. There is a thread about it on the Flight deck forums, Rumours and News.

[JW411]

What are you talking about? Look at Post #90.

[PAPI-74]

Oops!
I didn't read that and I haven't been at work for a bit. Out of the loop.
Disregard!!!

[Dani]

Seems to be some uncertainty about how a LCY approach is been done. Here some guidelines:

full flaps, speedbrakes
Vref at G/S intercept from a level flight
follow G/S and PAPI
Go Around Lights at end of Touchdown zone. If you miss them: GA
Special wind limits, depending on BA/BC
Only CMD can fly it
Regular training and recency
Technical status of the aircraft (basically all items influencing performance are necessary)
There might be more items, depends on A/C type and company.

Dani

btw: I like this barque thing. Why couldn't they use it on a daily basis if the gates are overcrowded? :rolleyes: ;)

[PAPI-74]

Only the CMD can fly it.

Why do some Airlines adopt that policy? As an FO, I was allowed to fly into LCY after a Sim Session with EFATO's and then 5 approaches as PNF.
If you are tought properly, it isn't anything to worry about as long as you are prepared, just a bit interesting with a gusty southerly......
Surley if an FO is based at LCY and is part of several approaches per day, he should be able to land the a/c as well as the CMD, in some cases better looking at some of the landings.

[PAPI-74]

Vref at top of drop....what about the windshear and mechanical turbulance?
I use Vref +10 (+15 if gusty), but TP's can slow down very quickly.
Is that for the 146?

[Dani]

Only the CMD can fly it.

It's not only a matter of being able as an FO. It's also to time available for a CMD to correct if it should be necessary. Since it's still the responsibility of the CMD, he also has to have the right to intervene. On a tight approach like LCY, there might be too little time available.

You might be also correct that you could train most FOs to the task, but in more difficult situation, it's still "best use of equipment" to let the CMD as the PF. Otherwise you could also argue that an FO should do the Cat III, the OEI, the flight control failure... - the list goes on.

As for your question about the Vref I didn't really get what you are asking.

hth,
Dani

[JW411]

Interestingly enough, some 17 years ago I was "loaned" (no doubt at great expense) by my company complete with an F/O to the FAA to spend 2 days in the 146 simulator at Hatfield. The idea was to see if it was possible to fly 7° approaches with any regularity.

The guy in the back was connected to the FAA computer in Kansas City and we were only given a few minutes warning of which approach we were to fly selected at random by the computer.

In other words, it might be a 3-engine approach flown with a go-around at IFR minima or a 4-engined approach at MLW with a full stop landing on a wet runway. We never knew what was coming next.

We used various critical airfields such as Casper, Wyoming, LCY, and Aspen, Colorado.

We were able to prove that a 7° glide slope is the absolute maximum that can be achieved by a BAe146 in still-air conditions. In order to achieve that, you have to be back at VRef+5, Gear Down, 33° Flap with the Airbrakes out and Power back to FI on G/S intercept otherwise it is impossible to stay on the G/S.

LCY was, I believe, originally looking at a 7° slope for noise abatement but such a notion was not practical for everyday purposes. That is one of the reasons why 5.5° was considered to be more practical.

[Phil Space]

Captphil has managed it a couple of times a day for years and the only computer he is connected to is his mum in Bolton:cool:
He reckons the plan is to fix it and get a ferry pilot to fly it out of the Red Bull strip:ok:

[HKLCY]

The aircraft was towed across the dock between next to the university. My pictures can be seen at Flight Global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/09/24/216951/video-and-pictures-swiss-has-removed-damaged-avro-rj100-on-floating-pontoon-at-london-city.html

[gofer]

Phil,

If you can float it there - would it not make sense to float it back if & when fixed? Our is the Red Bull strip longer ???
:ok:

[JW411]

What an absolutely fantastic idea! Do you mind if I pass this piece of original inspiration on to the people concerned?

Strictly in confidence, they were considering licensing the Red Bull runway for public transport operations after they had lengthened it and resurfaced the entire length and then installed an ILS at either end just in case the repaired aircraft had to make a return.

Your idea could just be cheaper.

[Phil Space]

Make more insurance sense for some vandal to just set fire to it one night:uhoh:

[gofer]

Think I agree with Phil this time - but JW if you look back the early in this thread, #25 to be correct, why did it that those :mad::ugh: all this time to get this far.....

But on the other hand having 2 runways at LCY begs the logic of - one for arrivals and 1 for departures - so with a little work and filling in the space to be able to roll from one to the other - a 100% capacity increase or even more - could soon be at hand (watch out LHR !):D

[AlanM]

Has it happened again then?

SWR RJ not departing this evening after a heavy landing at 1800ish today.

Any news???

[operationsair]

Who are you? Do you sit at the end of the 28 RESA with a note book?

How do we know it was heavy? Was the runway closed etc???

[AlanM]

Ooooh - check you out with your "Runway End Safety Area"!!!

Nah - never get down to the docks mate. I work 27 miles due west and we heard it where we are!!!

Are you saying it did depart, and didn't have engineers refuse to sign it off as safe?

Do tell you little guru.........

[Alpine Flyer]

@jw411: Wasn't LCY initially 7 or 7.5 degrees when it was limited to Dash 7s and a bit shorter than today?

BTW, my company has just announced that we'll fly into LCY effective winter schedule.:E

[operationsair]

Thames then.

I wouldn't know if the engineers wouldn't sign etc I don't work at the airport. I wondered if you knew.

[JW411]

I do believe that the initial proposal for LCY was indeed a 7° glide slope but not many aircraft could achieve this safely and regularly.

[F4F]

Alpine Flyer
Good luck and fun flying the F70 into LCY...
All well when the wx is merciful, but interesting times ahead for when the going gets rough :}

The F70 sure is no Avro that can just be plonked on the tarmac when needs be (talking about not so seldom 25 gusts 35 night/wet landings). The only real plus are those reversers :ok:

PS for Dani
You will enjoy the F100 for sure :cool:


live 2 fly 2 live

[Dani]

PS for Dani
You will enjoy the F100 for sure

...but not in LCY!!! :uhoh:

[AlanM]

Who are you? Do you sit at the end of the 28 RESA with a note book?

Followed by:

I wouldn't know if the engineers wouldn't sign etc I don't work at the airport. I wondered if you knew.

Do tell - how come that you have so much info about issues such as previously mentioned "RJ blocking the 10 ILS G/P"??

And for confirmation the SWR is still there. Check the FMP reasons for today's flow rate (Aircraft blocking a stand.......)
:ugh:

[WHBM]

Check the FMP reasons for today's flow rate (Aircraft blocking a stand.......)
Where's that barge ? !

[AlanM]

Maybe SWR should land at Southend and complete the last part by boat......
Seriously, it has not been great weather for LCY recently - like today the wind is now 350 degrees and 12G19.

I landed last yeur with VLM and it was similar..... yikes! :)

[MarkD]

could this be a new type of "remote parking" at LCY? :D

[slip and turn]

What is it with these Swiss recently? Are they more prone than the others? A few years ago I was told by a friend of a friend that the Swiss RJs were higher on their oleos to such an extent that the airstairs at LCY sometimes weren't high enough. Have they lowered their oleos lately? :p

[EGCA]

Could the Red Bull temporary strip be lengthened sufficiently to allow the aircraft to be flown out. What length did Red Bull lay down?

It is a bit surprising that there is vacant land in that expensive area of London for a temporary airstrip anyway!

EGCA

[operationsair]

I highly doubt the plane will be flown out. I'm sure they will just bring it back over and dept it from LCYs runway.

[Piltdown Man]

Placing the aircraft outside the airport and given the nature of the locals, it will either get "twoc'ed" by a yoof or nicked for scrap by a gypo. Either way, a smart move by the owners and the airport.

PM

[flying phil 2007]

It will be a good trick if they can fly it off the Red Bull Runway !
Will need a rocket assisted take off - its a tiny strip.. you can spot it from this picture. .

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=659760

[captphil]

correct opsair. i'm sure that's the only way to go. red bull air strip no way!!!!!!!!!
Question now is how long will it take to fix?? P.space might be back in thai by that time.....CP:)

[AlanM]

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=678813

[ChristiaanJ]

Good one, AlanM.
Looks as if the first span of the temp hangar is already underway.

[redsnail]

Hangar looked fairly complete from where I saw it. I wasn't paying too much attention to it when I landed but we had a reasonable view of it at Holding point A. Saw it on Sat ~12:30 local.

[glad rag]

How did you take that photograph, esp with that crosswind?????;);)

[Gulfstreamaviator]

The latest London Airport....

Why should the cross wind affect the camera.?

But a great shot.

Thanks

[Chuffer Chadley]

Jeez.

That shot makes the runway at LCY look HUUUUUUUGGGEE!

And it isn't.

Nice to see the eastern apron extension progressing at such a rate. :}

cc

[dwshimoda]

Why should the cross wind affect the camera.?

Apologies if you're being sarcastic and I'm not getting it, and looking at your profile you're obviously an experienced aviator, but:

At approx 200 ft, on a 5 degree approach slope, and an almost complete cross wind of approx 15 knots, I would have thought both PF and PNF would usually be quite busy and concentrating hard, not taking snaps...

Unless the pic came from a jump seat or altogether different source than an inbound - however it does look to be perfectly on the PAPI...

DW.

[operationsair]

It was obviously a jumpseat? as said, pilots are not going to be clicking away on short final.

Well we would hope not.

[FLAPHOOT]

Beleive it or not this aircraft has been moved across the river Thames on a barge. A tempory hangar is to be erected and the aircraft repaired. Photos on http://www.smiliner.com/news/current.shtml#0706_12

[flying phil 2007]

The Swiss RJ100 is now tucked away in its temp hangar.

Saw it as I arrived, with a bump tonight, on a BA RJ100, even the Stewardess remarked it was a "positive arrival" !

[silverelise]

Beleive it or not this aircraft has been moved across the river Thames on a barge. A tempory hangar is to be erected and the aircraft repaired. Photos on http://www.smiliner.com/news/current.shtml#0706_12
Really? :eek:















:ugh:

[Midland 331]

More photos:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/exemplaryphotos/1472132902/

[vanmunchen]

The aircraft was, of course, floated across to the north side of the Royal Albert Dock, not across the Thames. These photos taken just before completion of the hanger:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14869782@N02/1545151888/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14869782@N02/1545151888/)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14869782@N02/1545151898/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14869782@N02/1545151898/)

[swiss_swiss]

so anyone know how the landing was completely buggered up?? heard report the "pilot" didnt know that any damage was caused :eek: any truth in that?

[HeliCraig]

Anyone know the current state of repairs of this a/c ??

[HeliCraig]

Any more news on this a/c? Are the repairs complete yet, or is it still in-situ?

[Alpine Flyer]

AFAIK the A/C has left LCY a couple of days ago. The temporary hangar is gone.

[Newforest]

Believe the bird escaped about the 5th of December.

[Dani]

That's correct. The aircraft departed 3th Dec afternoon to BSL, where they conducted a C Check. The aircraft is now on the line.

The tent has been removed immediatly because they needed it somewhere in Poland for a broken A320.

hth,
Dani

[Fokker28]

...even the Stewardess remarked it was a "positive arrival" !
Dont'cha love that? Especially as they never seem to remember to compliment the greasers...:)

[Newforest]

The tent has been removed immediatly because they needed it somewhere in Poland for a broken A320.
hth,
Dani

Thought I recognized that tent!

Here it is housing Air Europa's 738 at Katowice, see post 136. What next?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=298066&page=7

[ChrisGr31]

Are these the pretensioned structures provided by Arena Structres? Theres a photo of an aircraft in one of their tents in their latest newsletter http://www.arenagroup.com/images/pdf/newsletter_autumn_07.pdf

They can create some amazing structures with these, every year they erect one for the Scientolgists which is visible from the other side of the valley and is larger than their manor house!

[fendant]

Swiss Avro HB-IYU is in service again, saw it today in ZRH bound for DUS.

Frank

[Dysonsphere]

Are these the pretensioned structures provided by Arena Structres

I think youll find its from De Boers in holland I think

[jafflyer]

would this be classified under "hard landing", so will this need an inspection?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5prz1Ae5QM

[Maude Charlee]

Yep, that's a hard landing, and for an RJ/146 it's a shocker.

I have a feeling that is the a/c that was so badly damaged by that particular landing it had to be removed from LCY by barge as it was considered unfit to fly and couldn't be repaired in situ.

Standing by to be corrected, naturally.

[rog747]

the youtube clip shows a swiss a/c
the above chap says it was BA

[lambo_guy08]

I saw a BAe 146 perform a Go-around at London city on the 22 february at 17:45:26. It was an SAS airlines. Anyone on board / see this as well?

cheers, lambo_guy08

[lambo_guy08]

i have heard that BA will use A318s out of LCY to KJFK-(is this possible?)-might have been what you saw.

[marlowe]

Yes it is possible but with a tech stop for fuel enroute, as the LCY runway not long enough to lift out the weight required to non-stop to New York.

[MikeStanton]

re - the Tented 146 - As I understand it she was repaired barged back across the dock and flew out in mid December and is now back in service :)
Also it wasnt the one which almost crashed onto the runway in the youtube clip. The rj which was in the tent was wearing Star Alliance colours.

[nebpor]

I'm not sure where your restaurant is, but a helicopter touches down daily somewhere between Aldgate and Canary Wharf (I see it from my Aldgate office window) - might well be that you're seeing, and the distance is hard to see?