ATPL before PPL complete?

[ccopter]

Hello - I am struggling to complete my PPL GST due to great british weather. My timescale for flight training is already sliding dangerously out of kilter!!! Is there anything stopping me studying distance learning or rese quietly before i complete the PPL? One option i am thinking of is to order ATPL studies from Bristol or similar and start study rather than waiting for weeks until the weather is right for my PPL.

Am i right in thinking that it is only at the exam stage of the ATPL where PPL is required. Am i breaking any rules by ordering course before PPL is actually finished?

Any advice please?

[GoldenMonkey]

I believe it is OK to do what you suggest.
Just have a word with the schools and so long as they are OK with it... go for it.
So long as you don't loose focus on passing the GST that is!

[Mercenary Pilot]

You can't sit any ATPL exams unless you have had your PPL for 3 months. That doesn't stop you studying though. :ok:

[neilia]

You might find that the schools won't let you enrol for ATPL studies unless you hold a PPL - this is certainly the case with Oxford. If you're close to PPL completion perhaps they will make an exception, only way to find out is to ask them.

If they won't let you enrol straight away, be careful of just buying materials - chances are you will end up having to pay for them again when you actually enrol on a course.

[matt_hooks]

I didn't realise you needed a PPL to do the ATPL exams. Is there a different rule for integrated courses as only two people out of the 16 on my course have PPL's yet we are all quite happily sitting, and in some cases even passing, the ATPL theory stuff!

[Mercenary Pilot]

Yes the integrated course has different rules & regulations, you can start without ever even sitting in an aircraft.

I dont think you actually get a PPL during an integrated course, I may be wrong about that though (I went through Modular training).

[Lucifer]

I dont think you actually get a PPL during an integrated course, I may be wrong about that though (I went through Modular training).
Well, you effectively do, as you have an SEP rating on a CPL/IR, which once lapsed in its own right is a PPL.

[Mercenary Pilot]

As I understand it. If you cant finish your integrated course for whatever reason, you dont get a PPL out of it.

[matt_hooks]

You complete the training for a PPL, and if your relevant flight tests are carried out by a CAA examiner then you can apply for a PPL. Most people don't bother tho, just add the SEP rating to their licence at the end of the course.
And yes you can start an integrated course with no flying at all, one of the guys on my course has never even been inside a light a/c, let alone flown one!:eek:

[Lucifer]

As I understand it. If you cant finish your integrated course for whatever reason, you dont get a PPL out of it.
No - the other way around - you have to finish to get the rating on the CPL, or apply as noted below!

[potkettleblack]

Oxford may well not sell you a set of manuals for the ATPL's but I am pretty sure Bristol will and you can self study as much as you want whilst you finish off the PPL.

[Hour Builder]

It is a requirement to HOLD an ICAO PPL (A) at least before starting any ATPL theory course. Bristol didnt check mine, but they should have done. You may need to have a PPL for at least 3 months before taking any ATPL exams, but you definately need it issued before they should enrol you on the course. Whether they actually check is a different matter.

ATPL(A) Modular Theoretical Knowledge Course

The aim of this course is to train pilots who have not yet received the theoretical knowledge instruction during an integrated course, to the level of theoretical knowledge required for the ATPL(A). Applicants will be required to complete 650 hours of ATPL theoretical knowledge instruction at an Approved FTO within a period of 18 months. An applicant shall be the holder of a PPL(A) (excluding NPPL) issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1.

HB

[hobbit1983]

Since Bristol allow you to study at your own rate before taking the exam (within the time limits for sitting ATPL exams of course) why not purchase/acquire the textbook(s) and start to study them now? So that when you enroll on a distance learning course, you're already ahead?

[neilia]

Because when you enrol onto the course it's likely you'll have to pay for the materials all over again as part of the course fee.

You can buy Oxford's books direct from Jeppesen if you want, but if you then enrol with Oxford you will pay the full course fee and they'll send you another set of books.

Check it out before you part with your money!

[littco]

You can't sit any ATPL exams unless you have had your PPL for 3 months. That doesn't stop you studying though. :ok:


Don't agree, I got my ppl on the 4th April and sat my 1st set of ATPL exams on the 5 th June, I make that 2 months!! May be I was lucky?

[obi-nu]

Guys,
Just been reading this thread... really interesting! I've just completed my JAA (UK) PPL (passed last tuesday!) and i would like to take my flying further... i didnt know about this requirement for the ATPL exams!!:ooh:

Im not sure what to do next though (was directed to the long winded thread on 'becoming an airline pilot' but just found lots of contradictory information and different opinions/ ways to go about it!:confused:

I have been thinking about hour building over in the states and would like to get my IR? next or go the whole way... CPL/ATPL but im not sure how to go about it/ best/ cheapest route now i have my PPL??:ugh:

I dont really understand the whole 'process' except that you need an ATPL to fly commercially!!:eek:

Could anyone please point me in the right direction??!:ugh:

[0-8]

You can't sit any ATPL exams unless you have had your PPL for 3 months
I'm not sure about the 3 months requirement but you are technically required to have a PPL before your sitting your ATPL's.

I say technically as I know of several cases where students have completed all 14 exams without holding a PPL. In each case the student assumed that if there was a problem the school or the CAA would alert them, but neither asked so they continued on.

I really wouldn't recommend it though as the CAA would be within its rights to make you resit the exams if it found out!

[Mercenary Pilot]

I say technically as I know of several cases where students have completed all 14 exams without holding a PPL. In each case the student assumed that if there was a problem the school or the CAA would alert them, but neither asked so they continued on.That’s interesting, the case I know of only came to light when the student in question put in for the exams. At which point the CAA E-mailed the school to say that the student hadn't held the PPL for long enough. :confused:

I guess the best course of action (as always) is, if in doubt, E-mail the CAA. If you have it in writing (or at least typing;)) then there wont be any nasty comebacks.

It surprises me how people will take what is said here (As well meaning as most of us are) as gospel and won’t check with the CAA. It's one of the only things the CAA do for free so you may as well take advantage. Besides, you could save yourself alot of heart ache and more importantly lots of cold hard CA$H!!!! :ok:

[Bandit650]

Can anyone offer any suggestions to what kind of flying whilst doing an ATPL ground course (not at exactly the same time obviously:=) is likely to contribute the most towards the CPL/MEIR training?
VFR Nav?
Instruments? (do IMC rating?)
Long trips?
Night?
International?
Busy Airspace / Airports?

I want to be doing something of high constructive value to the next step when not heads down in books.

Cheers

[Finals19]

Bandit,

I am in a similar situation as you are (hope to start a foreign licence conversion to JAA in January)

Obviously PPL flying around for fun is costly if you are ground studying for your fATPL, so there has to be some benefit..

Once or twice a month, plan a flight that covers a bit of everything you have mentioned, in particular a bit of radio navigation and IMC if you can. General handling is kind of incorporated into this anyway (depending on your current experience and/or skills level) If you can incorporate an approach into it, all the better (or even a simulated approach in open FIR if you have a safety pilot with you)

:ok:

PS: On that note, I PM'd you..

[BlueRobin]

How about very little and focusing instead on passing the course?

You will be too busy, esp full-time to commit to actual flying. However before commencing ATPL theory there is a wealth of stuff you can do. Fly more complex stuff than a basic 152/PA28; tailwheel, wobbly prop, floppy undercart, farm stripping ... All helps build your experience, captaincy and understanding of aircraft systems.

I worry when I see recently passed PPLs go straight into ATPL theory without actually having used their "licence to learn"

[ivehad2many]

How about very little and focusing instead on passing the course?


i dissagree... i did all my hour building during my ATPL residential course at Bournemouth and found it helped put paper into practice, and keep my head focused on WHY i was putting myself through all the work..

Dont assume people may not be able to pass theory whilst flying and spending all spare time in the books...!:ok:

[gcolyer]

I think hour building whilst studying is fine (not at the same time as mentioned earlier:bored: ).

But as BlueRobin states, don't just spend as little as posisble in 150/152's and that sort of thing. Get in some complex aircraft, tail draggers and that sort of thing. the hours will be much more valuable and more appealing for the log book than chip as chips trainers.

Do you multi rating, that gets that out of the way and they are quality hours.

Then their is the IMC or wait for IR argument. Personally I say if you have the money do the IMC, the hours a much more quality hours than VFR bimbles. After IMC try to get as much instrument flying as you can done, especialy instrument approaches

In basic terms if you want to hour build while studying go for quality hours over quantity hours.

[Airbus38]

Fly more complex stuff than a basic 152/PA28; tailwheel, wobbly prop, floppy undercart, farm stripping ...
don't just spend as little as posisble in 150/152's and that sort of thing
Really, how can you say that? Or do you not pay for it yourself? Yes, I agree in principle but many of us live in reality, where it's a ball ache to get the hours in the very cheapest aircraft.
I think the question is how to spend the time and not how much money you would spend in 100hrs if you had it.

[Bandit650]

Well, to be honest I've done okay in terms of variety in my 210hrsTT so far. Bulldogs (UAS), C172, PA38, AA5A, PA38, PA28, T-6 Texan, JP, Siaf Marchetti and 1hr Multi GA-7. I also did IMC and Night, although I let them lapse. My original question was really aimed at what I kind of flying will provide a good foundation for my CPL/MEIR next year. Given the IR is the hardest part, perhaps I should get my IMC revalidated as already suggested....I need to keep progressing with the actual flying to feed motivation into the theory studies .. or I may just crack up!! .

I'm very curious about one thing. I wonder what kind of improvements will doing the CPL/MEIR bring to my ability to fly an a/c from point A to point B? will I be much better at holding alt and hdgs maybe? will I not think twice about jumping into a twin and flying thru a cloud layer and having fun ontop before shooting an ILS back home??? does the training take you into a new league of flying proficiency and confidence??

[mattycourt]

Dear Sirs,

I was wondering to myself the other day if it was possible to do the ATPL exams before you embark on your PPL via the Modular Route. I know tht if you go via the integrated route at OAT, the first thing you learn is your ATPL's. If it is not possible to do this, why so?? Save doing the PPL groundschool, wouldnt it?

Thank you very much in anticipation.

mattycourt

[planeshipcar]

it is not possible in the UK unless you do an integrated. probably to make the inegrated even more holy.

[mcgoo]

I think you might be able to start studying for the course but you cannot sit any exams unless you hold an ICAO PPL.

[mattycourt]

Cheers for the replies guys. Would any body reccomend starting to study for the ATPL's either before or during the PPL just to get a heads up for when you start the groundschool??

[BlueRobin]

You will have enough on your plate with the PPL, so no.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Cheers for the replies guys. Would any body reccomend starting to study for the ATPL's either before or during the PPL just to get a heads up for when you start the groundschool??

IMO If you can cope with the work load then I would say yes, get your hands on the ATPL books and learn about the subjects in proper depth. You have to have held a PPL for 3 months before you can sit any ATPL exams.:ok:

[Aim High]

It is not correct to state that you need to have held a PPL for 3 months prior to taking ATPL examinations

It is a JAA requirement to hold an ICAO PPL before you embark on a ATPL course

You can pre-read and pre-study with ATPL material

Some modular courses are 12 weeks long by distance learning others are 6-8 weeks long before the first stage of examinations may be taken
At the shortest then it is 6 weeks after holding an ICAO PPL if exam timings work out right for you

My advice to the topic starter
Study your PPL theoretical knowledge well
Only use ATPL material to cross reference to - but enjoy reading it

[will fly for food 06]

i dissagree... i did all my hour building during my ATPL residential course at Bournemouth and found it helped put paper into practice, and keep my head focused on WHY i was putting myself through all the work..

Dont assume people may not be able to pass theory whilst flying and spending all spare time in the books...!:ok:

How did you find bournmouth, im starting in march if the caa help me sort out my ppl before then(ex raf)

[jerezflyer]

I am totally convinced that you cannot just stop flying while doing the ATPL groundschool. Imagine how rusty you would be flying after a year or two studying!
I am doing the ATPL groundschool and have the objective of flying at least once a month, all cross country if possible, as I want to build these hours for the IR/ME. This also keeps me motivated while getting ELRs, DALRs, great circles and rhumb lines into my head!!!
By doing this you are only taking a day a month away from studying, work, the pub and of course the family - and its all good experience.

[will fly for food 06]

I dont have any experience of juggling the two but i am planning to fly at least one or twice a month at weekends to keep current. Cant wait to start and looking forward to making my brain work again.

[hobbit1983]

I'm starting a distance learning ATPL course in March; and also hourbuilding for the next year or so. So far post PPL I've done the aeros/spins/etc course offered by Ultimate High, a couple of cross-countries on the C-172 (as I trained mostly in the US & needed to do a UK XC or two. I made a point of requesting MATZ/zone transits in particular).

I'm currently working on a taildragger conversion. Before I start the CPL flying course I aim to;

-do a Night & IMC Rating
-convert onto an Arrow, with VP prop & retractable U/C
-during hourbuilding, both hone my flying skills (wiht/without an instructor) & carry out a number of increasingly challenging XC trips,
-multi rating
-full AOPA aeros

It's going to take longer & be more expensive, but I think it's worth it.

Hope this helps (if anyone else wants to offer constructive advice/critisims etc, please do so!)

[littco]

Having recently just done my CPL test. I would say the best advice I could give would be to concentrate on your accuracy when flying. It's very easy when Hour building to get into bad habits, and try and take short cuts. If you spend time, focusing on your altitudes, heading, joins at airfields, getting the proceedures correct it will make a big difference when it comes to the CPL training.

[jono1978]

Hi,

I heard somewhere that I can start my ATPL before I have completed my PPL, is this correct?

I am nearing the end of my PPL, a little behind schedule so I want to start asap.

Any help would be appreciated


John

[Keith.Williams.]

Unless you are on an Integrated course you cannot start your ATPL theoretical knowledge course until you have your PPL IN YOUR HAND.

The reason that I have stressed "IN YOUR HAND" is because when the CAA are in one of their (quite frequent) difficult moods, they will insist that it is not enough to have passed all of the PPL exams and flight tests. You must have actually had your PPL issued.

You can of course start reading up on ATPL material before you get your PPL. But it would probably be more productive to sharpen up on maths and revise your PPL theory. Most students starting ATPL have passed their PPL simply by learning answers from the PPL Confuser. This means that they have none of the basic knowledge that they should have at the start of the ATPL. This does not prevent them from taking in the ATPL material but it certainly makes it more difficult.

[jono1978]

Thanks for the reply. I think a brush up on maths is a good idea, its not my strong point.