49er wins in UK

[frankg]

The UK Employment Tribunal in Crofts v. Veta has found Veta guilty of Unfair dismissal, Failure to give reason(s) for dismissal and Breach of contract.

[Cedar Tree]

What does this mean for the affected pilot? And what implications will this have for CX?

[cpdude]

Interesting conclusion...

Where employees carry out their work in a number of
different locations (eg. airline pilots) it is important to look
at where they were based under both the terms of their
contract and in practice.
A peripatetic employee is held to be able to rely on the
unfair dismissal legislation if he is based in Great Britain.
Having taken into account a number of factors, including
the "basings policy" of Mr Crofts' employer, it was found that the centre of his operations was, "quite manifestly,
London"

[Glass Half Empty]

Delighted for Mr Crofts et al. By far the right decision and a shame the HKAOA did not see it through to the end.

[cpdude]

Delighted for Mr Crofts et al. By far the right decision and a shame the HKAOA did not see it through to the end.

Give your anti-AOA rant a break will ya!

I'm happy for Mr. Crofts but how far was the AOA suppose to take a case like this?

Like Spock said, "the needs of the many outway the needs of the few or one".

[Mr. Bloggs]

Can the Tribunal force Veta to rehire Mr. Crofts?

Like to thank the hundreds of CX pilots that helped support the court cases over the past year. I am sure the 49ers appreciate it.

Delighted to see the Pilots stand by their colleagues to the end. instead of cutting them free to battle on their own. Something to be proud of. Show your tie pin proudly, if you own one.

I am sure the UK based pilots will show their gratitude to the CPU for providing them protection under UK law.

Good news indeed.:D

[6feetunder]

Take a look at your conditions over the last 5 years cpdud, if you guys hadn't ran off you would still have some leverage. Now less than half the pilots are represented by the VAOA and the only organisation protecting your contract is the CPU.

If the UK pilots want to show their gratitude then they should look here The Cathay Pilots Union (http://www.cathaypilotsunion.org/) and consider helping the cause. It's not over yet, Hong Kong is next.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Sorry 6 feet. How can you expect to pay for 3rd mortgages, a helicopter, C172, sport car, first wife and the Amah, which I married.

I just can’t afford it now. Not that I don’t believe it morally correct to do so, it’s about ME.

[Wizofoz]

I'm happy for Mr. Crofts but how far was the AOA suppose to take a case like this?


How far would you expect your union to suport YOU? They were happy enough to target new joiners and get THEM to abandon their aspirations, but when it came to the hip-pocket nerve....

Congrats Goerge, and shame on the AOA.

[BusyB]

Wizofoz,

With your enormous knowledge of everything to do with this you obviously know that a lot of AOA members still contribute to the legal fund.:ugh:

[cpdude]

How far would you expect your union to suport YOU? They were happy enough to target new joiners and get THEM to abandon their aspirations, but when it came to the hip-pocket nerve....
Congrats Goerge, and shame on the AOA.

How far? Until it was no longer reasonable to do so!

Company fires 49+ employees.

Company agrees to pay employees GBP66K on top of already paid 3 months severence.

Still very angry and upset, those employees continue to fight the company using emotion rather then brains, mostly at the AOA expense and win a final settlement in court of GBP70K.

Total legal cost...over GBP100K.:confused: :confused:

Was that smart??????????:}

[Five Green]

In one word YES.

[cpdude]

In one word YES.

Your opinion only but will they now repay their loans?:eek:

[cpdude]

cp dud, you are such a dork. still singing your ole song and dance about the aoa, instead of being happy for a guy getting his just due.
how is anyone to take you seriously anyway, when you quote star trek?
got your klingon halloween costume all picked out there? :8

A predicable and expected response from FCUX...again!

I thought I said I was happy for him but I just didn't think the outcome justified the fight.

I don't know why I'm explaining myself to a kid who should be more grateful that his daddy has such a good job at Cathay.:}

[19weeler]

Cpdude,
Do you not think labour protection for all UK based pilots under UK law justified the fight?

[cpdude]

Cpdude,
Do you not think labour protection for all UK based pilots under UK law justified the fight?

I think the coffin is now nailed shut and whatever value you see in that is obviously objective. :) The reality is CX learned their lesson years ago about a mass firing!:uhoh:

I do concede :ouch: that my opinion is obviously taken in hind-sight. GBP70K is rather disappointing and had it been 5 years of lost salary, my opinion would again be different.;)

[19weeler]

Its just a terrible shame that this was not achieved by the aoa, but by a small group of 49ers who were flushed down the tiolet by by the very group that this ruling benefits.

[cpdude]

Its just a terrible shame that this was not achieved by the aoa, but by a small group of 49ers who were flushed down the tiolet by by the very group that this ruling benefits.

I think "flushed down the tiolet" is a little strong considering most of the legal expenses was paid for by the AOA!:=

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Still he does not get his job back so why is the CPU congratulating themselves. Went to their site and still no names on any letters etc, everything still secret so I seriously doubt their claims on hundreds of pilots donating and being members. Dont give us the line you are protecting our contract....CX realised long ago sacking the 49ers was wrong and will not try that one again.

[frankg]

If it wasn't for the remaining 49ers and the CPU still going after CX you can be sure they would try it again, in a heartbeat. The CPU has enough money from enough pilots to see this thing through. Not once has a cost award gone against them in spite of the scare mongering by the former AOA President and his moronic GenSec. (by the way, he makes as much or more than a lot of Captains, getting value for your money?)

The AOA deliberately dumped the 49ers without any thought of the consequences. As far as the legal expenses go, when you ran away from the fight and hung your mates out to dry you pretty much gave up any claim to that.

[The Management]

Firing the 49ers was the best strategic plan we have done in the history of Cathay Pacific Airways. I cost us very little money compared to how much we have in reserve and what it saved us in Industrial Relations.

In turn we have a very very compliant workforce, association, not given any pay rises and do not plan to give any in the future. We own you!

We get less complaints from the pilots when we abuse your rosters continuously. We work stack, change rosters to avoid overtime, re-roster and assign reserve well over your original duty, etc. We do what we please. You acknowledge all our requests. We get few complaints.

If we must fire en-mass in the future, we will not hesitate to do so. It may cost 50 pilot jobs every 10 years but it is a great motivator. It is always effortless to pick 50 pilots. We have evidence in their P-file or their training files. After the firings, the pilot group will fall inline. So yes, we have learned our lesson.

Cathay Pacific and the Hong Kong Government will ensure that the Proper Judge is put in place for the Hong Kong Court cases. This ensures the proper outcome. Both parties have a vested interest in not having labor win a court case in Hong Kong.

Give your money to the CPU and blunder it away with the 7 members and 3 donators. Squander your money. We have more money in petty cash in Cathay City then the CPU will ever get in donations.

There are no names on the CPU, because they will unequivocally be on the list of 50 and yes we know who they are. Yes the donators will be sought out, so act accordingly.

Good fortune in encountering a job, mr. crofts. We stand by our dismissals.

The Management
:E

[Five Green]

If we must fire en-mass in the future, we will not hesitate to do so. It may cost 50 pilot jobs every 10 years but it is a great motivator. It is always effortless to pick 50 pilots.
:E

At least next time it will cost $37 520 000.00 HKD instead of around $5 000 000 hkd. Although I guess you could then blame said pilots for the lack of profit share for that year too !

Stock holders might raise eyebrows at that much.

[spleener]

Congratulations to you George! and importantly, the CPU!!

CPdUde; it is not about the money, morality is bigger than that...

[BusyB]

I totally agree with the congratulations to George.

Not so the CPU. The financial contributions and bank account were needed but not a pseudo Union that does nothing to deserve the title of Union.

[spleener]

Busy B, with respect, I believe we're both tugging on the same piece of 49ers string here.
The reason I congratulate the CPU in particular is "100% of accrued funds has gone to the legal support of The 49ers." Thanks are equally due to those who contribute in other ways to the legal fund.
I would agree that the CPU is not quintessentially the present representative pilot's body. I believe pragmatically however that the CPU's existence is obviated in this case.

[49er]

The efforts of the remaining 49ers would not have been possible without the CPU and the convictions of its founders. Essentially for UK based pilots the clause in the Veta COS that CX thought they could use to fire us has been virtually eliminated as a result of this action. All UK based pilots are now in a better situation regarding their employment. This was one of the goals originally set by the AOA back in '01. Since deserting the 49ers the contract for CX pilots has not improved, in fact you are all flying harder for the same or even less salary and benefits.

One of the prime objectives of any union is to look after the interests of its members. Comparing the performance of the two I reckon the CPU is doing a better job of it. All UK based pilots are now in a significantly better position than they were a week ago. Can the AOA even come close to a statement like that? Has the AOA even made one significant change (for the better) or improvement in the contract in the last 3 years? Important questions to ask yourself when you are spending 1% or so of your salary. JF should be ashamed of himself for taking your money.

[BusyB]

Fair enough!:hmm:

[Liam Gallagher]

19 Wheeler etal,

Whilst I am not a member of the AOA or CPU, and should a member of such wish to contradict me I would welcome it, but it is my understanding that the piviotal House of Lords ruling regarding Legal Juristidiction for Veta pilots based in the UK was achieved by AOA funding solely, before the creation of the CPU.

Following this Landmark ruling, Cathay offered a settlement broadly in line with what the Tribunal ultimately awarded George. All Legal Opinion shown to the AOA membership said the Tribunal had no authority to force Cathay to re-employ George, unless Cathay consented to re-employment (and they weren't going to do that).

In sum, History shows the legal advice given to the AOA members was near to the mark. The decision to further fund George's legal bills, to enable him to have his day in Court, could be seen as noble or a futile waste of scarce resources that would have blocked the re-employment of the dozen or so 49ers the company did take back .... the choice is yours.....

[frankg]

Liam,
The HOL ruling was handed down in January of this year and the hearing was held in November of 2005. The AOA ceased funding any and all legal action prior to CX appealing to the HOL. I could be wrong but even the previous appeal by CX was heard after funding had ceased. The CPU was registered as a trade union in early June of 2005 but had been stood up on the First of May that year and immediately commenced funding all legal actions. They have since spent a significant amount of money protecting the interests of the 49ers as well as each and every pilot at Cathay Pacific.

All legal opinion shown to the membership was censored and vetted by the President at the time and the GenSec. Both of whom will, in the fullness of time be shown to have misled the membership and even lied to the 49ers

[BusyB]

frankg,
Most of the legal expenses up to signing the 49'er deal with CX were paid by the AOA.

As far as censorship goes, as a member I asked to see the legal opinions and was shown all of them in the office. No censorship only not making it public and available for CX to see.

As far as lieing goes, I understand the CPU claims affiliation with IFALPA and has had a letter from IFALPA saying its not true and they are not eligible!! But they are probably not guilty of lieing to their members because they are so few.:bored:

[frankg]

Like I said, in the fullness of time...