security (again)

[daedalus]

Stansted Airport, departures, afternoon, Sunday 15th October
Absolute bloody chaos. Nowhere near enough security checkpoints for weight of pax. I think 4 or 5 passport checks in total.
Massive queues snaking all the way through the concourse, past the check-in desks and out past the car-hire booths towards the main entrance. Waiting time 2 hours or more.
Desperate pax with flights already called still waiting for security clearance. Many we spoke to had experience of some of the crappiest 3rd world airports in the world but said they had seen nothing like the sheer incompetent chaos at Stansted. What an image of the UK!
Parents with small babies, old and infirm people treated like cattle. No one came along the lines calling for those whose flights had been announced for boarding and shepherding them to the front, as they should have done (and do at most international airports). We were in good time and let dozens with called flights past to try and get their flights.
Utter lack of coordination. At the passport/boarding card check (before security) only one bag was allowed, so ladies had to put their handbags into their luggage (on the floor, since there was nowhere else). Once through to the x-ray machine the handbags and laptop bags had to be taken out again from the cabin baggage to go through the machines separately. (What crackpot responsible for that?)
We had checked in on line and had a boarding pass comprising an A4 page with details of name, flight, passport number, time, destination etc with a bar-code on it. When we got to the passport control the agent, instead of saying:
"Excuse me Sir, but I'm afraid my scanner is not reading the bar code on your boarding card." said:
"It's not readable - you folded the paper - go to check-in and get a manual boarding pass!(involving at least another hour's standing in the queue).
I pointed out that nowhere on the boarding pass did it say "Do not fold" and asked him to check my wife's boarding pass (which had not been folded).
Very unpleasantly he did so and hers did not scan either! I told him he was bull****ting me (w.r.t. the folding) at which point he threatened to call the police!
I stongly suspect his scanner wasn't working, or that he was deliberately pretending that it didn't - does anyone know about these things? In a supermarket the bar-code scanner emits a light or a red line. His scanner did not emit any kind of light - should it?
We had to go back to the Ryanair check-in and after circumnavigating the desk found someone who knew what to do (they were very kind and helpful, but seemed somewhat confused).
We got a handwritten boarding card, which contained less information than the A4 online boarding pass we had already presented and no stamp or barcode at all. There was more information on the A4 printout we presented and of course we had our passports with us. For example, the online printout boarding pass had our passport numbers on it, whereas the handwritten one did not. When we got to passport control again, the handwritten boarding pass alone was accepted without a glance. Go figure!
After queuing another 45 minutes (once past one queue, you got to another) we got to the x-ray security check. On the floor were piles of abandoned plastic bottles, containers, shampoo, toothpaste etc. (no bins). There was also a large bunch of grapes. Don't tell me these had been banned by the security goons! (Explosive grapes?)
Old people were in tears, mothers with babies frantic, young and old hurtling towards the gates as their flights left, credit cards calling cards, all sorts of items falling from their pockets and wallets as they dashed for the flights. On woman told us she found three credit cards. The travelator was "out of order".
IMHO whoever was responsible for the utter disorganised chaos at Stansted should be on a charge. Indeed, I wonder if a case could be taken before the Court of Human Rights. The damage done to the reputation of the UK among thousands of international travellers must be immense. The British Tourist Boards and Chambers of Commerce must be groaning and banging their heads against the wall. I believe MOL of Ryanair is sueing the UK government for compensation. I hope he wins!!
If we have to visit the UK again we will use Eurostar (no checks on shampoo, toothpaste etc.on the train) or the car ferry (no such checks either). Any terrorist could blow up the train in the Chunnel or blow a ferry to kingdom come. What's different about planes? I asked a stewardess who said that planes could be used as flying bombs. Really?? I though cabin doors had been reinforced to prevent entry to the cockpit?
We spoke with other Brits now living abroad or decided to go to live abroad. All were agreed that the UK currently combines inefficiency, rudeness and pig-headed bloody-mindedness on the part of officialdom which is unparalleled anywhere else in the world, including South America, and even Egypt (chaotic, but at least friendly and flexible.)
We currently live abroad but had comtemplated returning to the UK to retire. It's now out of the question. When flying we will try at all costs to avoid the UK and we will never use Stansted again.
What a complete sh**hole my country of birth and upbringing has become.
:ugh:
:{

[nivsy]

My sympathies! Sounds like a nightmare journey for you. I am transittin Stansted later this year from Glasgow to Dusseldorf with Air Berlin. Does anyone know if there is a transit area at that airport so hopefully such caos can be avoided?


Nivsy

[BRISTOLRE]

daedalus, That is one of the best posts that I have read on PPRUNE in a long-time! Your post made interesting reading - yes, what a shambles. An excellent account from a disgruntled users point of view. What a poor experience, it sounded like madeness. In all seriousness of your experience, I found your post quite humourous and some of it made me chuckle.
Re the Chunel and Car Ferry - I agree totally with what you are saying.
Somebody should be held accountable for this chaos on Sunday. Lets hope this mess at UK airports gets sorted out.

[lexxity]

I hope you have forwarded your post onto BAA. What a shambles security in this country is.

[manintheback]

I hope you have forwarded your post onto BAA. What a shambles security in this country is.

well I would qualify or clarify - what a shambles BAA security is. I havent flown since this all kicked off and have no intention of doing so until it gets sorted. That covers pretty much everyone i n my company. The airlines really need to raise the stakes with BAA and resolve this once and for all. Lets face it, the situ at places like LHR was awful before.

[Crepello]

Tough luck, daedalus - sounds like Murphy had jurisdiction at the time. And I hear what you say about country of birth and upbringing.

If it's any help, I hear there can be problems with barcodes printed on inkjet printers if the cartridge is 'smudgy' (old/low on ink/aftermarket) or if the quality is set to 'draft'.

Finally, grapes can cause 'explosions' through overpressure but this requires many months' fermentation... almost long enough to get through Stansted... ;)

[tom de luxe]

As for those responsible, look no further than to

those who have voted for a government who sold off BAA to private investors, whose primary aim is return on investment (and why shouldn't it), not the very "public service" notion of passenger comfort/maximising passenger thoughput, even if that means undermanning (underpersoning?) security desks,
those who choose budget airlines, who in turn squeeze airport operators on fees. "Of course we're concerned about convenient air travel - just not as concerned as saving nine quid on a round trip to Bratislava (Vienna)" - not that the situation is much better at bigger airports.
those who use the climate of general fear created by terrorist attacks (and the ensuing media frenzy) to generate a livelihood for them (security firms, consultants, the lot.)

If you're flying LUX-LON, there are two airlines competing on the LUX-LCY run, namely Luxair and VLM. Both are fine airlines, with a fine product, connecting two fine airports (LUX improvements are under way, but it's not too bad right now). I remember you had some sort of run-in with Luxair, so that leaves VLM. Small planes, small airports, min check-in time 20 mins at LUX and 15 mins at LCY (and they mean it), rather quick security, and even in the Monday morning rush hour (7:30 am, boarding a VLM flight to LUX), clearing security at LCY today took me no longer than 10 minutes (with a smile). Admittedly, tickets are not precisely budget, although off-peak VLM are available from GBP 25 + tax.

You pays yer money and you takes yer chances

[PAXboy]

daedalus Thank you for your excellent description of the problem. You may be 'amused' to see that, on the BAA website for STN: "Stansted to create 160 new security jobs" this was posted on 9th October 2006. BAA (http://www.stanstedairport.com/portal/controller/dispatcher.jsp?CiID=a0a97be3b0d2e010VgnVCM10000036821c0a____&CtID=a22889d8759a0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____&Ct=B2C_CT_PRESS_RELEASE&ChPath=STN^About%20BAA%20Stansted^Media%20Centre^News%20Rele ases^Results)

The Managing Director of Stansted is:
Terry Morgan
Stansted Airport
Enterprise House
Bassingbourne Road
Essex
CM24 1QW
United Kingdom

This should take you to an on-line Feedback page: Feedback (http://www.stanstedairport.com/portal/controller/dispatcher.jsp?CiID=2a474c94ca498010VgnVCM10000036821c0a____&CtID=448c6a4c7f1b0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____&Ct=B2C_CT_GENERAL&RootCh=Misc&Ch=Feedback&ChID=3830b4bf2c5f3010VgnVCM10000036821c0a____&ChPath=STN%5EMisc%5EContact+Us%5EFeedback&ChIDPath=4cf597dc2eb12010VgnVCM100000147e120a____%5Efbdb8538 d86e3010VgnVCM10000036821c0a____%5Ec9afb4bf2c5f3010VgnVCM100 00036821c0a____%5E3830b4bf2c5f3010VgnVCM10000036821c0a____)
They then offer various types of feedback and methods. Do let us know what they say - other than the standard response letter. :(

[daedalus]

Thanks all you guys for comments and helpful addresses. Although we travelled Ryanair, I can't blame them - problem was insufficient security staff. Once on the plane we had to wait because at least 2 pax hadn't made the flight, but their baggage had, so it had to be unloaded.
We had plenty of time, thank God, but we felt deeply for the poor sods who hadn't and particularly for those whose flights had been called and who were desperate to get through. We let as many as possible go in front of us.
The Ryanair staff (once we found the right person) were excellent and wrote us out boarding cards, but as I said, these were handwritten and contained less information than the internet boarding passes which had been refused
I just can't understand how anything can be so totally chaotic and infficient!
I will most certainly write to the chief exec of Stansted.
:confused:

[daedalus]

Forgot to mention we have used Luxair and VLM, but they are expensive and I'm not sure the experience at Gatwick would have been better - in any case it's in the wrong place for us, as is London City Airport since we were going to the 50th reunion of my old Antarctic base, which was held in Northampton.

What we might do in future is go to Prestwick and drive south (longer drive, but avoids Stansted). Since my aged parents live south of Middlesbrough, we might in future even go Ryanair to Dublin and then Ryanair Dublin to Durham/Tees Valley - an airport which looks like an old Dr. Who studio set (though they are building a new terminal) and ,which receives about 5 flights a day!

On the other hand we might just forget flying and go by train or boat.

[BOFH]

It sounds rather like the evacuation of Riga. A splendid rant!

It's a pity that reviewing your post removes all your paragraphs - which - no fault of your own - makes it difficult to read. But it's difficult to read anyway, given the graphic scenes you described.

It is difficult to imagine that you had such a rotten time (although I can recall a 2 1/2 hour wait at LHR in 1997 once, with similar scenes, before I acquired Exec Club). If you are within Eurostar range, I'd recommend it over air travel any time. For the life of me, I don't know why the railways aren't going harder for the middle-class pound and instead segregating things into too expensive (First) or chav club.

Just out of interest, how much lead time before your flight did you allow?

We spoke with other Brits now living abroad or decided to go to live abroad. All were agreed that the UK currently combines inefficiency, rudeness and pig-headed bloody-mindedness on the part of officialdom

If you find this any solace, I left Australia for the same reasons. Oh, and then Germany. Seems to be part of the human condition.

BOFH

[radeng]

IF Only............
we could take the BAA managers for Stanstead, Heathrow and Gatwick AND their deputies AND their security managers and their deputies all out for a public flogging, followed by bullet in the back of the head and an eBay sale of their organs.........the ones taking over might just get their act together. (radeng is really quite liberal!)
But until something drastic is done to BAA and their managers, things will get worse rather than better. Add the DfT and Home Office busy stirring the pot, and you have total chaos.
If the EU could produce a ruling that passengers who waited more than 20 minutes to get through security got €50 in cash, it might work. Interestingly, at Nice, a small airport, every time I go through there are two gates open at security and it's very fast. On that basis, LHR T4 should have about 20 to 30 gates open, on ratio of passengers to gates.

[PAXboy]

radeng you have found the solution!:ok:
Forget having to pay for delayed or cancelled flights - just have penalties for slow clearance through formalities and late pushback.

They could then follow the old saw of the supermarkets, "If there are more than X people waiting - we will open another checkout line."

[daedalus]

Sorry to have missed your question re how much lead time we allowed. Our flight was at 20.35, boarding at 20.05. We arrived Stansted at 17.00.

As I said, we had enough time, even to queue twice for over an hour because of the scanning fault.

The security staff at theX-ray were polite and as efficient as they could be given the sheer weight of pax. The main problem was the passport/boarding card check and the sheer lack of staff to cope. Are the controllers employed by BAA or by that paragon of efficiency ("not fit for purpose") the Home Office?

[groundbum]

my 11 room B&B in the Yorkshire Dales (Malham) is having a record year this year for occupancy and so forth. Apart from having 2 superb pubs within a minutes walk, being on the Pennine Way and set in streamside gardens with log fires, four-poster's and wifi throughout... I think this our busiest year is due in no small part to the airport chaos and fuel surcharges. I would guess the sheer aggro involved now in nipping away to Europe with your partner for 2 days is such that a drive up the M1 is preferable. Not that I would want to win business based on other's suffering, but we've all got to holiday someplace! I watch the "Airline" show on Sky every so often and it's laughable how mad those terminals are. Then I turn off and sit on our patio with the ducks..

Personally I've poked jet2 and ryanair and so forth's website from MAN/LBA for quick days away, but the prices are so high when you try and book a few weeks in advance, and when you click through and see it with surcharges and tax then you just think stuff it! I'll go to a nice hotel nearby..

S

[nivsy]

Its been said before and i will dare to say it again - airports are meant to be there to transport passengers. They should not be classified as shopping malls - bars - gaming machines arcades. get rid of these facilities - increase passneger screening areas - security access - and gates with adequate seating areas - not just plastic seats - improve baggage reclaim areas and there we go - better progress to gates - aeroplanes and on time departures. So simple!

Nivsy

[BOFH]

daedalus
Thank you for replying. No need to apologise, it's more laid back here than in Jet Blast - except when someone asks 'How do I get an u*g*a*e?'.

I admire your planning ahead for contingencies - three hour's overhead for a flight which was about one half of that.

As groundbum points out, this will make Britons more insular - certainly his guests, and me, for one, too. What is the bleeding sense in buggerising around to go somewhere exotic when we have all manner of exotica here? (I appreciate you were trying to get home, not away).

It would be inappropriate, of course, of me to inquire whether groundbum had special rates for other Ppruners, or for me to ask him to PM me to tell me how to find his B&B. So I shan't. :ok:

BOFH

[Musket90]

Daedalus - Great post - Unortunately it is not uncommon at Stansted and probably other busy airports because:

- Government enhanced security means check-in and security screening much slower.
- There is not enough staff do carry out these extra functions on a day to day basis.
- Front line staff who are carrying out these duties and who are exposed to the anger and frustration that you described are consistently doing very long unsociable hours for little or no reward and therefore have lost any goodwill to their employer.
- Consequently staff turnover can be high causing continual recruitment and training of new staff.
- Human nature means that inconsistencies will occur in the way both passengers and staff interpret the regulations.
- Day working office staff are trying to support front line but there is a limit to people's goodwill for reasons already mentioned.
- Internet check-in has it's down side. As well as the scanning problem you mention, your A4 paper is not perforated like a boarding card which means when at boarding gate the agent has to fold, then tear it in the right place in the hope that they retain the correct portion. This delays the boarding process.
- Arriving at Stansted peak times is just as bad, particularly late evening when immigration queueing takes forever and once through, another long wait for your luggage due not enough staff or reclaim belts to cope.

Stansted cannot cope with volume of passengers and the new Security/immigration measures. BAA continue to think it it can, so be warned

[FLCH-SPD]

Daedalus, I am an employee for one of the airlines at STN and I agree with your post 100%

It is difficult to imagine that you had such a rotten time

I can assure you that Daedalus' account is far from an exaggeration and this chaos was not confined to Sunday 15th. Things have gone downhill from there and yesterday 178 of our passengers missed their flights after having checked in.

In the 6 years that I have worked at this airport, the handling of passengers at central search is the worst I have ever seen it! Even in the aftermath of 9/11, passing through security then must have seemed like a walk in the park compared to that of the past week.

The shortage of staff is only part of the problem, the whole "jobs-worth" attitude that seems to have taken storm with the security staff is a pretty big factor! I heard one of the security agents telling a passenger that the delays were nothing to do with staffing levels, but were due to passengers not sticking to the rules!! What a load of trash!!!

Today I was boarding a flight, and we were missing 78 passengers at departure time. After holding the flight for 50mins, we still ended up offloading 17 passengers, what a disgrace! What makes me laugh, is that the BAA are always banging on about security being their number 1 priority, but it seems that their efforts must only be focused on the screening area because the rest of the time they couldn't give a sxxite! Last week I called to report an unattended bag at check-in, and was told that it would be at least 40min before they could send somebody because all of the staff were working the search area and put the phone down. He didn't ask me where the bag was, what it looked like etc...! Exploding grapes are obviously far more of a threat than an unattended bag. Surely this is basic security! There are security doors hanging off their hinges, doors that don't close properly-it was only last week that I found an FR passenger wandering around the RAMP??????????

I find the whole sorry state of affairs an embarrassment, and I empathize with any passenger who has the unfortunate task of having to battle through this airport. You have my deepest sympathies!!!

[FLCH-SPD]

Just to add, I was dealing with a Ryanair passenger yesterday who missed her flight to Girona due to security queues and was trying to find an alternative route. She said that Ryanair were charging the passengers for a new ticket. Is this true?

[BOFH]

It is difficult to imagine that you had such a rotten time
I can assure you that Daedalus' account is far from an exaggeration
FLCH-SOD
Sorry about that, it was ambiguously phrased - I really should have written 'it is difficult to imagine that you could have had' etc etc. Poor expression on my part, and at no time did I want to call the description of the hellhole in which Daedalus found himself into question.

My point was that Daedalus was put through the wringer - and for what? If anyone here reads the Dilbert blog, you'll have seen that a four-ounce shampoo bottle was confiscated from the author, as the maximum is three ounces. However, his bottle was half empty! So he cannot take two ounces of LETHAL EXPLOSIVES on board, but someone else can take three! Obviously, a world-famous, wealthy cartoonist, middle-aged, balding with a young family, wants to get his point across with his SHAMPOO OF JIHAD.

I can see from your post that you are also fed up, and I sincerely hope that things improve. I've either been very lucky, or it's because I've always treated airline staff with commensurate regard, that everyone has been wonderful to me.

If it is any consolation, my feelings are with the sensible staff who must deal with the more unruly elements of society - who will doubtless take out their frustration on you. Realistically speaking, this will only happen when you are (openly) armed.

BOFH

[FLCH-SPD]

FLCH-SODSorry about that, it was ambiguously phrased - I really should have written 'it is difficult to imagine that you could have had' etc etc. Poor expression on my part, and at no time did I want to call the description of the hellhole in which Daedalus found himself into question.

No need to apologize, I knew exactly what you meant. I just wanted to emphasize the reality of the situation.

If it is any consolation, my feelings are with the sensible staff who must deal with the more unruly elements of society - who will doubtless take out their frustration on you. Realistically speaking, this will only happen when you are (openly) armed.


I have received more abuse in the last month from passengers held up at security than I have in the entire 6 years that I have worked at STN. But I can honestly say, hand on heart, that not one of their rants was unjustifiable and I’m amazed at how understanding the traveling public have been considering the way that they have been treated!

[Helol]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread.

I lived in Lux for 11 years, and was a regular user of BA418/419 LHR-LUX-LHR. The BA flight was great, and I was usually guaranteed to meet at least one person I personally knew on the flight.

However, for some unknown reason, BA stopped that route, which meant I would fly Luxair, usually the afternoon flight to LHR (I think it was at 1250?)

Anyway, I returned (unfortunately) to the UK, but still make regular trips to Lux. Now though, I drive. I am only 120 miles from Dover, which is convenient. And yes, the UK has changed beyond anything I knew 20 odd years ago, and if the chance arises again, I will leave it in a shot.

I would recommend driving to Lux, if it is a viable option for those thinking about it. The drive through the Ardennes, although a little monotonous, is rather pleasant.

Can anyone explain why on earth BA withdrew the popular LHR LUX route?

[OFSO]

Just to add, I was dealing with a Ryanair passenger yesterday who missed her flight to Girona due to security queues and was trying to find an alternative route. She said that Ryanair were charging the passengers for a new ticket. Is this true?

If you miss the flight because you turned up late at check-in, for any reason, they will charge you for a new ticket on an alternative flight.

However rumour has it that if Ryanair cancel a flight and you don't possess the ability to scream and shout and rant and rage, you may also be duped into paying for a new ticket.

If a flight is scrubbed the procedure is to head IMMEDIATELY to their ticket office and starting being as assertive as you can, demanding a rebook onto the next flight to your destination. Men: Get red-faced and fake a heart attack (if faking is necessary). Ladies: burst into tears. Opening your case and letting contents fall out is also good. Sit weeping amongst your pathetic and obviously inadequate belongings. Anything to draw attention !

Has anyone else experienced the chaos of Ryanair's new machine check-in ? Machine can't (or won't) read bar code, tells you to seek human assistance, humans don't know/don't want to know, tell you to go and queue somewhere, after half an hour you get to check-in to hear "you're in the wrong queue, go over there", after another half hour you are told to go back to machine.

Chaos ! Incidently we fly with Ryanair about 30 times a year and love their cheap fares, but the nightmare that is Ryanair-at-Stansted is appalling. But then, that's why people move abroad, isn't it.

R

[stevef]

Agree about the 'automated' check-in. I've copied this from my post in the Ryanair Brickbat thread.

Went to a certain British airport today to see my girlfriend off on an international Ryanair flight. I was told to use the check-in machines, not the desk. The machine refused to complete the transaction after I entered the required details. I then informed the floating Ryanair check-in assistant that the machine wouldn't work.
Her response - 'YES it does.' She then turns her back on me.
I managed to attract her attention a minute later and told her again that the machine wouldn't complete the transaction. No offer of assistance - I was just told to speak to the Excess Baggage payments desk. The assistant there was more helpful and wrote a note that the check-in staff should book in my partner manually.
I wonder how non-English-speaking pax cope with unfamiliar machines that don't even work and offhand customer service?

I heard much muttering from other pax trying to use the machines. The American next to me wasn't very complimentary about them at all.
Generally speaking, Ryanair aren't bad but I've had a couple of shoddy encounters with them on the ground. I defy anyone to gripe about their prices.

[Palmgren]

Having experiences myself on more than one occasion the poor capability of the airport scanner to read the barcodes on self-printed boarding cards, and then being sent to queue once more, I wonder how in contrast supermarket scanners can read barcodes off seemingly any material, held at any angle, and passed over the reader very quickly. Can the BAA not afford Tesco-tech?

[Seat62K]

Three observations:

The security "bar code" isn't a bar code - just look at it and you'll see what I mean. I doesn't have the bars of a traditional bar code. Perhaps it's therefore not good to compare BAA readers with supermarket ones.

Home printed boarding passes, I think, should be folded carefully to avoid folds across the "bar code that isn't a bar code".

I use these passes at Stansted a lot and have not had the experience described above. I have had the operator scan my pass twice by mistake, which automatically bars access (as the system thinks someone else with an identical boarding pass is already beyond security).

[nebpor]

Helol, if flying Lux->London then use VLN to London City Airport, which I do regularly to visit my mates in Lux.

It's the best little airport left in the UK - it's beautiful. Views great, staff nice, travelling public generally attractive as well :ok:

[VAFFPAX]

Helol, from Lux, if you have some time, don't bother standing at the airport for two hours if you can catch a fast EC/IC to Bruxelles Midi and the Eurostar to St Pancras. So much less hassle. :-)

And Seat62K, actually the security is a barcode, just not the traditional one used for UPC/EAN. The traditional barcodes hold very limited information. 2D barcodes, which are square and look like a bunch of gobbledigook and which you often see on tickets, hold a lot more information, which can then be read and reconciled with you at the security checkpoint.

However, 2D codes require much more accurate scanning. Tesco (or any other grocer/shop) use laser scanners that use multiple beams in multiple configurations (dimensions and angles) to avoid the problem of having to scan the traditional barcode in one specific direction, however, they'll need better and different scanners to read a 2D barcode. Japan is VERY good at those barcodes, they use them everywhere... the old barcodes used for ISBN/UPC/EAN are very much in the minority. I have to agree with you though... don't fold your ticket where the barcode (whether UPC or 2D) is. And print it on a laser printer, ink smears/smudges, and is a problem then.

:-)

S.

[Seat62K]

"Bar codes" should contain bars. Traditional ones do. Home printed boarding passes do not. This is why I think it's misleading to call it a bar code, unless the term is widened (like "Hoover") to include more than, strictly speaking, what it should.

P.S. I use inkjet printers and have never had a problem.