Propeller Safety

[PhoenixDaCat]

As a space cadet of 9 years I remember that almost all the bogs within RAF facilities seem to have a flight safety poster or 2 about the danger of props, often depicting limbs being torn off, so I assume that it is a big deal.

I guess those who run the PR machine for the ACO don't understand the dangers, having come across this picture at www.aircadets.org

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/561/gallerysmilingproppp2.jpg

How do I grass them up? :\

[ChezTanker]

Looks like the prop has already claimed one techie!!

[MightyGem]

I thought they were only dangerous if moved casually, not just standing next to them?

[PhoenixDaCat]

I thought they were only dangerous if moved casually, not just standing next to them?
Location = Woodvale, UK. I guess you would know (Sir?)

[Junglie]

Quote : How do I grass them up?

Please tell me you are joking you muppet ?

If not you need to get a life..
Space cadet is right !!

[fireflybob]

It's a bad example to set - I was always taught never to be within the arc of the propellor and also to treat propellers as live at all times.

[FCWhippingBoy]

It's a bad example to set - I was always taught never to be within the arc of the propellor and also to treat propellers as live at all times.
I was always taught that a prop would "fail safe" ... ie, it would fail safely from the pilots persepective, live and keep spinning, not stop!

But as for grassing up the ACO ... I wouldn't have thought it worth it!

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I always teach my lot to assume that the propeller is live and desparate to turn them into 'chopped ham and pork'. They are, therefore (I hope. Fingers crossed etc), less likely to walk into a rotating one! However, has the battery been disconnected on this ac etc...?

Duncs

[Conan the Librarian]

Seem to remember in the long distant past, a late passenger somehow getting through a closed gate to get his flight at Aberdeen, (748 Dan Air possibly) and meeting his maker unexpectedly, with the assistance of a Rolls Royce Dart.

I suppose the ironic thing, is that if it were indeed Aberdeen, then he would have been diced at Dyce.

Conan

[Krystal n chips]

I always teach my lot to assume that the propeller is live and desparate to turn them into 'chopped ham and pork'. They are, therefore (I hope. Fingers crossed etc), less likely to walk into a rotating one! However, has the battery been disconnected on this ac etc...?
Duncs

Props KILL ----end of story. Any prop should always be regarded as "live" therefore. Had the message, er, "taught" to me many years ago at Halton ( hence the reason for including above quote re chopped ham etc ) in a short and succinct "lecture" with liberal use of the "f", "c" "b" and "t" words to describe said C/T's perception of apprentice's and props. Worked though.

Same as the "take one frog--alive" "take one pot of LOX" and, plop, shatter, tinkle. Neither approach would, I assume, be condoned in the PC Air Force of today, but they both worked in getting the safety message across which is the key point.

[enginesuck]

Take one space cadet, take one spinning prop and plop, i for one think this would be a lively demonstration on prop safety, in fact i will volunteer to throw the spacey.

[High_Expect]

Your bluntness is boring me to tears…… for the love of god Shut Up... please!

Military ‘ AIRCREW’ forum
:ugh:

[Roadster280]

Seem to remember in the long distant past, a late passenger somehow getting through a closed gate to get his flight at Aberdeen, (748 Dan Air possibly) and meeting his maker unexpectedly, with the assistance of a Rolls Royce Dart.
I suppose the ironic thing, is that if it were indeed Aberdeen, then he would have been diced at Dyce.
Conan

So it would be true to say that the "late passenger" became a "late passenger" after being diced at Dyce?

[MightyGem]

(Sir?)
The only people who have ever called me Sir, are those who didn't know any better!!

[Fg Off Max Stout]

From an extremely young age I had it drilled into me by my father (a former RAF and airline pilot of considerable experience) that every propellor should be treated as if it was turning or about to turn at any time. In fact the severity of his warnings struck the fear of God into me and have stayed with me to this day, so I cringe when I see pictures like this or people pulling light aircraft by the prop blades.

Props kill people all the time, mostly walking into turning prop arcs but static props should also be treated with tremedous respect. I am fairly certain that people have had fingers, limbs and lives removed by props turning unexpectedly due to switch pigz and electrical faults.

If, as I was taught, you NEVER put any part of your body through a prop arc you can't go far wrong. When checking the blades on the walkaround you do so carefully, preferably visually and you certainly don't curl your fingers around the leading or trailing edges (just as when swinging a prop). (The only exception would be helicopter rotor systems where the greater inertia means they cannot move suddenly. Even so, rotating tail rotors kill regularly).

The picture is an appalling example and I am amazed that some people here seem to consider common sense safety practices and general respect for the aircraft to be geeky or unnecessary.

[virgo]

A lot of you are soooooo BORING !

Some of my most favourite photos are of WAAFs on wings, stewardess in engine intakes - horizontal, sitting, standing and a trio together (RB 211).
I've got dozens in open doorways, standing on wheels and hanging on hoists.

By being sensible and understanding and explaining the risks, we never as much as broke a carefully manicured finger-nail or laddered a stocking ..................but everyone involved now have some fantastic and unforgetable pictures AND we all had a good time producing them - and please don't say we were lucky.........ref. 1st sentence of this para.

If the critical comments represent a measurable percentage of service attitudes.............Thank Heavens I'm out of it, I don't think I would last very long in such a service.

[insty66]

Your bluntness is boring me to tears…… for the love of god Shut Up... please!
Military ‘ AIRCREW’ forum
:ugh:

There's one every few months, unable or unwilling to read what's at the front of the forum.:ugh:


FWIW you should always treat props as live. Turbo props too can spin unexpectedly and if you're lucky you'll get away with it. If not don't come running to me!;)

[A and C]

A few years back I saw a flight safety poster depicting a Tucano propeller shredding a poor unfortunate who had come into contact with it, this cartoon depicted a red mist and body parts going in all directions and was the most effective poster I have ever seen on the subject.

May be its time to re-issue this poster? It sends a stronger message than all the good advice that is writen above.

[PhoenixDaCat]

Quote : How do I grass them up?
Please tell me you are joking you muppet ?
If not you need to get a life..
Space cadet is right !!
Guess what the :\ at the end of my post indicated!

Muppet times 2

[PhoenixDaCat]

Your bluntness is boring me to tears…… for the love of god Shut Up... please!
Military ‘ AIRCREW’ forum
:ugh:
Hmm. Who's inventory are these aircraft on? Certainly not the ACOs.

[L J R]

CFS trappers certainly get V tense if you touch the prop during a walkaround on a Tutor. = After all they set the standard.

[teeteringhead]

And just to make sure it gets max exposure, one understands that the space-ette and prop in question are "Miss October" in this year's ATC Calendar ..... :ugh:

[WorkingHard]

Duncan -"has the battery been disconnected on this ac etc...?"
The engine runs from MAGNETOS therefore does not need a battery.

[lurkposition]

Your memories are short! In times long ago we were required to hold the fan on our whispering giant whilst the awesome Proteus decided which way to turn.

(It was not such a good idea though on my next sleek machine - Mr K Albert.):)

[Pontius Navigator]

Beware of any engine. I always look at the engine as I board my EasyJet or whatever. I never assume that it will not blow or suck.

With the prop I always steer well clear. With the Shack it had more that enough mixer blades. It was a point of style to always align the props after flight. I always let the pilot on the Lancaster, Anson, Valetta or Dakota line them up. On the Hastings and Shack we had the luxury of Flt Eng to do it.

If you are going to go near the blades make sure you were the last person in the cockpit then on your head be it.

PS, I forgor the Varsity and the Chipmonk

[ShyTorque]

Duncan -"has the battery been disconnected on this ac etc...?"
The engine runs from MAGNETOS therefore does not need a battery.

Correct, BUT....

The battery is wot powers the starter motor wot turns the prop. A turning prop, going over compression even without firing is likely to give the recipient's head a nasty lump. It would take a faulty relay to cause it to motor over by itself, a pretty unlikely scenario.

I wouldn't personally get my pants bunched up my bottom over the photo.

P.S. ~ Instructed on that type for a few years.

[4fitter]

30 years in, been around Andovers, Wessex, Puma, Chinners and lots of Albert. I still avoid the props because I am anally frightened :ok:

[FCWhippingBoy]

Been around aircraft since a young lad - I always avoid props because I don't want anything that has already been mentioned to happen to me!

[k3k3]

A hot piston engiine can turn over even with all the switches off, therefore treat all props as live and you might live to tell the tale.

I saw an old Chief Tech whacked on the knuckles by a Chippy once, fortunately it was close to the spinner and not further out so he retained all his bodily particles and got away with having fingers the size of bananas for a couple of weeks.

[GPMG]

Come on people, that phot is obviously set up and all the correct safety procedures would have been taken I'm sure. It makes a good picture.

If any idiot sees that and then thinks 'oh so it's ok to stand near a prop anytime' then they deserve all they get.

Take the safety warnings off of everything, and this world would be less a few morons and thus a better place.

Some of you are getting a bit Nanny state on this.

[Pontius Navigator]

A complete digression as I could find nothing about props but this might enliven a dull thread:

Aircraft: PIPER PA-34-200T, Registration: N47506
Injuries: 2 Fatal.

The private pilot and a pilot rated passenger [two pilots] were going to practice simulated instrument flight. Witnesses observed the airplane's right wing fail in a dive and crash. Examination of the wreckage and bodies revealed that both occupants were partially clothed and the front right seat was in the full aft reclining position. [The pilots had converted the co-pilot seat to a bed.] Neither body showed evidence of seatbelts or shoulder harnesses being worn. [They were lying on the bed.] Examination of the individuals' clothing revealed no evidence of ripping or distress to the zippers and belts. [Their lack of clothing seemed to be voluntary.]

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

The pilot in command's improper in-flight decision to divert her attention to other activities not related to the conduct of the flight. [The pilot and co-pilot were having sex, and nobody was flying the plane.] Contributing to the accident was the exceeding of the design limits of the airplane leading to a wing failure. [The lack of a pilot caused the plane to fly erratically, over-stressing the wing and leading to a crash.]

But this one is more apposite:

(Summer 2003, Canada) During my days in the Canadian Air Force I worked at the Gliding School instructing cadets. A magneto uses magnets to produce a powerful high-voltage electric current to fire the starters of an aircraft. One night we officers had a private competition to see who could hold onto the four leads of a magneto the longest. One by one we all dropped out, except for "Captain Magneto."
We pooled our money and came up with a bet, and the debonair Captain Magneto took that bet. He attached all four leads to his left testicle. Then we fired up the magneto. As you can imagine, Captain Magneto dropped like a sack of potatoes.

Nobody was able to assist him because we were all laughing too damn hard to breathe, let alone move. To add insult to injury, Mrs. Magneto (his wife) chose this very moment to walk in. She took one look at her husband, and instead of comforting him, started bitching him out. "What's wrong with you," she yelled, "I want kids someday!"

In time Captain Magneto was able to stand without screaming, but he probably won't be playing with magnetos any time soon.

(Summer 2003, Canada) During my days in the Canadian Air Force I worked at the Gliding School instructing cadets. A magneto uses magnets to produce a powerful high-voltage electric current to fire the starters of an aircraft. One night we officers had a private competition to see who could hold onto the four leads of a magneto the longest. One by one we all dropped out, except for "Captain Magneto."
We pooled our money and came up with a bet, and the debonair Captain Magneto took that bet. He attached all four leads to his left testicle. Then we fired up the magneto. As you can imagine, Captain Magneto dropped like a sack of potatoes.

Nobody was able to assist him because we were all laughing too damn hard to breathe, let alone move. To add insult to injury, Mrs. Magneto (his wife) chose this very moment to walk in. She took one look at her husband, and instead of comforting him, started bitching him out. "What's wrong with you," she yelled, "I want kids someday!"

In time Captain Magneto was able to stand without screaming, but he probably won't be playing with magnetos any time soon.

[MightyGem]

"take one frog--alive" "take one pot of LOX" and, plop, shatter, tinkle.
Not from Chuck Yeager's book by any chance?? ;)

[Gainesy]

"take one frog--alive" "take one pot of LOX"

Very effective demo, but you don't need as much LOX if you use a small amphibian instead.

[chiglet]

Pax [a Stewardess] got out of a Cessna 337 at Liverpool. Ran around the rear of the aeroplane........straight into the AFT rotating prop.
watp,iktch

[Beeayeate]

What a load of wibble, everybody trying to be self-righteously better than the next.

Yes, working on prop airframes can be dangerous but only if you don't know what you're doing or are complacent to the point of imbicility. What about all the engine mechs and fitters since the dawna time who serviced and still service the airframes that you are allowed to play with? I'm glad someone up-thread mentioned the Brittania. Common practice to have four blokes with a shoulder against each lower blade on start up. Anyone who has worked prop 'frames can tell you stories going way back that would curl your little toes, but for every person that got 'hit' there are a thousand that didn't! Everything the RAF has on inventory is dangerous if not treated with respect, from towing arms to Typhoons, everything.

As for the pic . . . nice I thought, setting, reason for it, people who sanctioned it, even the lass (in some ways). No point in raining on her parade just because someone wanted a publicity shot.

Anyway, I think the initial post by 'Cat' was a bit of a jokey wind-up. Notice the ':\ ' wibble smiley?

[MightyGem]

I only flew in the Brittania once(thank goodness!!), but wasn't it a turbo prop??

[Krystal n chips]

Not from Chuck Yeager's book by any chance?? ;)

No, the little stream that ran at the back of the Hangars on the airfield actually ;)

[Sgt Bilko]

The "Cat" is part of the ACO, or recently was. See the previous posts. If he (or she) wanted to really grass the ACO up, they would know where to start.

[hobie]

Have a look at the guy around the props on this short video ..... :(

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Douglas_DC-6-Airline_Untitled_Aviation_Video-5474.html

[lurkposition]

Yes.. The Brit was turboprop. The proteus engines suffered from partial power turbine stall at low [starting] rpm due to a tortuous back to front gas flow. This disturbed gas flow manifested itself by rotating the power turbine the wrong way (or sometimes not at all). On start the prop blade would be safely prevented from rotating backwards by GC until core rpm increased whereupon it gently pulled itself the correct way out of his gentle grasp. GC would now clear the area.

Later, when the brits were sold to a freight company (was it Turncoat or Redcoat , or something like that!) they did not seem to bother with this procedure. I was starting my Albert on a dark Gander night with a Brit starting next to me. Sure enough, the prop rotated in the wrong direction for a short while. As the core rpm increased, the gas flow sorted itself out. The prop suddenly stopped and then accelerated the correct way accompanied by a nice light show from the engine exhaust.

Wasn't the proteus a boat engine?

[Ignition Override]

Years ago while waiting in Phoenix for our plane's late arrival, I went over on the ramp to see a large orange safety cone which was stuck and wedged between the blades in the intake of a Delta B-767's left engine. Many very small orange pieces were behind the engine. An agent had left the cone in the wrong place. This was just a large turbofan.

Two female ground agents were killed as they walked into a Metro's left prop at Newark (EWR) and into a SF-340 propellor down south. These happened at night, but daytime is no protection.

Many regional airlines operate the right engine when boarding, in order to help cool the planes etc.

[LowNSlow]

Conan I think the accident you mentioned was at Glasgow with a Dan-Air charter to Shetland. It was during the construction of Sullom Voe Oil Terminal. Onre of the bears (construction worker) was put off the budgie cos he was smashed. He then nipped around under the wing to get his bag from the baggage door at the front and ran straight into the prop. Nothing left above the knees according to eye witnesses.

[ShyTorque]

Sad thing about these accidents is that HAD they been wearing hi-vis vests, they might have been completely unharmed :ugh:

:rolleyes:

[sled dog]

Lurkposition

The Proteus was used on the cross channel Hovercraft.
They sounded just like the dear old Britannia, complete with " superfine " clunks.:cool:

[r supwoods]

To carry out a compressor wash on an Allison 250 Powered Turbine Islander .... hold prop blade under arm pit and squirt compressor cleaner down engine air intake whilst using the starter motor ... no ignitors or fuel during this operation! .... I've done it!

[airborne_artist]

sled dog - the Proteus was also used on the RN's Fast Training Craft (70's boats used to simulate Russian vessels, HMS Sabre, Scimitar and Cutlass). 50 knots = :ok:

[LowNSlow]

ShyTorque do you mean that propellors on stationary aircraft can see hi-viz vests??

[airborne_artist]

Hi-viz vests incorporate a thick layer of invisible body armour, and have been known to give the wearer an incredible sense of their own importance and intelligence :}

[MightyGem]

Yes.. The Brit was turboprop
So, the propeller problem is not there then? Or do I have to stop turning my rotors by hand? :rolleyes:

[kms901]

I am scared of propellors. In my teens as a model aeroplane fanatic, I lost the top of my right index finger to a misfiring 3.5cc diesel engine. I keep well clear, whatever the situation.

[movadinkampa747]

I am scared of propellors. In my teens as a model aeroplane fanatic, I lost the top of my right index finger to a misfiring 3.5cc diesel engine. I keep well clear, whatever the situation.

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: You are being serious aren't you? Bloody misfiring 3.5's. Not really on the scale of a real aeroplane now is it.....This is the Military forum you know not the boy scouts model aircraft club..............

[Roland Pulfrew]

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: You are being serious aren't you? Bloody misfiring 3.5's. Not really on the scale of a real aeroplane now is it.....This is the Military forum you know not the boy scouts model aircraft club..............

One hopes that you are joking here 747!! :ugh: I think the point made 901 very apposite! If a small 3.5 cc engine can take your finger off, just think what a prop powered by 2000cc, 4 or 6 cylinder engine can do to your arm, or head or torso. Always treat props with the greatest respect and as if they were live. I was taught it on the Chippie and I have taught it ever since - I still have a full complement of limbs (not sure about the liver though;) ).

[Dak Mechanic]

I remember wondering why 3 bladed props were always left to rest in a "Y" state..

I found out one of the reasons after we moved a prop 60 deg (for a valid reason that has long slipped my mind). I also discovered that: a/ leading edges are sharpe, b/ you DO see stars after smacking your head hard, and c/ you don't do it twice...

The other illustration of the danger was doing compression tests and trying to find TDC with compressed air in the cylinder. If you got it right there was no problem, but get it wrong and you found yourself being dragged along by a rapidly accelerating prop. :O

[Marsh Hawk]

More about propeller safety from Hartzell, and a few NTSB accident briefs at the very bottom of the page.


http://www.hartzellprop.com/flight_safety/safety_prop_safe.htm

[movadinkampa747]

One hopes that you are joking here 747!! :ugh: I think the point made 901 very apposite! If a small 3.5 cc engine can take your finger off, just think what a prop powered by 2000cc, 4 or 6 cylinder engine can do to your arm, or head or torso. Always treat props with the greatest respect and as if they were live. I was taught it on the Chippie and I have taught it ever since - I still have a full complement of limbs (not sure about the liver though;) ).

One does does one? Oh for goodness sake!!!! How high is that horse you are sitting on?:rolleyes: Blah blah blah propeller safety blah. The 3.5 didnt take his finger off, only a bit of it. Anyway what is he doing sticking his digit into a spinning propeller? Silly sod.:ooh:

[hobie]

One does does one? Oh for goodness sake!!!! How high is that horse you are sitting on?:rolleyes: Blah blah blah propeller safety blah. The 3.5 didnt take his finger off, only a bit of it. Anyway what is he doing sticking his digit into a spinning propeller? Silly sod.:ooh:

One probably uses one's finger to start one's engine ......

However, if one has never fired up a 3.5" prop engine one would probably not be familiar with the danger to one's finger ..... :p

[kms901]

Thanks, Roland, that was the point. I am sorry that as a mere mortal I started at the bottom. And yes, we did start them with our fingers. A backfiring diesel moves faster than you can get out of the way.

And, to be fair, it did happen on an RAF airfield.

[BEagle]

3.5" prop? Probably only on a Cox Tee Dee .010. All of 0.16cc and revs to 32000 rpm. A 3.5cc diesel would be more likely to use something like an 8x6. And yes, it bloody hurts when one catches one digit starting one's diesel. Clouted a finger on my PAW 19 BR at school in 1966 and still have a small scar to prove it!

Aeromodelling teaches basic aerodynamics, basic engineering and a fair bit of handcraft skill. Not to mention patience...

Quite a few of us probably grew up amongst balsa, dope and diesel, I would imagine!

[ZH875]

Nowadays, they just grow up on Dope.

[hobie]

Aeromodelling teaches basic aerodynamics, basic engineering and a fair bit of handcraft skill. Not to mention patience...


Not so long ago I watched a good bit of a "Discovery Channel" series on Building a C-17 model a/c ...... I have to say the engineering expertise that went into that project was first class ...... I have no doubt that if the team involved ever put their minds to building a full size aircraft they could do it .....

I do recall the team meeting up with the real thing (RAF Crew and of course a real C-17) and they were welcomed and treated graciously as "one" would expect ..... :)

http://www.landings.com/_landings/pacflyer/oct8-2006/On-53-scale-c-17.html

http://www8.landings.com/GA/images/pacflyer/oct8-2006/On-53-huge-rc-c-17.jpg

[movadinkampa747]

Quite a few of us probably grew up amongst dope I would imagine!

OMG Beagle you come on here and tell us you grew up amongst dope?:eek: What sort of example does that set to the young that look at this site?

[ZH875]

I like sniffing petrol cans myself


Made up, just like the quoted BEagle comment from a JumboPest....

If you are going to quote, QUOTE, or better still, stay off the dope, you dope.

[movadinkampa747]

Quite a few of us probably grew up amongst balsa, dope and diesel, I would imagine!
Yes you are quite right MK4 person. happy now.:ok:

[BEagle]

Cellulose dope and fuel proofer, actually.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Quite a few of us probably grew up amongst balsa, dope and diesel, I would imagine!
BEAgle - And I thought you grew up pre - Montgolfier Bros!!!

[Mmmmnice]

2 things:
Does anyone know if the young lady expressed concern about posing for the picture? - ie: had she been taught correctly about prop dangers in the first place?.....and
She appears to be anjoying herself, and surely that is what the ATC is all about?
I won't mention that she looks quite attractive, as that will obviously bring a torrent of abuse from the PC brigade and calls for immediate imprisonment!

PS. I once got some quite strange looks after mentioning I had dope on my fingers - are there any aeromodellers left?

[GPMG]

Ah the wonderfull smell of dope and banana oil......pin the wings down so as not to warp them, spray the tissue with water to tighten it up.....dope it a few times in an enclosed space (much more fun) and the apply banana oil to waterproof it.

Then apply too many turns to the rubber and collapse the blasted fuselage....and back to the building board, thank god for lithium battery's, brushless motors and micro servo's.

[GPMG]

Anyway what is he doing sticking his digit into a spinning propeller? Silly sod.:ooh:

Probably one of those brain fart moments like I had at the age of 15 when for some daft reason I tried to pinch starve the fuel tube (coming from the rear) but putting my fingers in from the front.....whilst the PAW was running. Dumb dumb dumb. Two very nice scars on my fingers, and a very embarred look around the pits in case anyone saw me.

[hobie]

Ah the wonderfull smell of dope and banana oil......pin the wings down so as not to warp them, spray the tissue with water to tighten it up.....dope it a few times in an enclosed space (much more fun) and the apply banana oil to waterproof it.

Then apply too many turns to the rubber and collapse the blasted fuselage....and back to the building board, thank god for lithium battery's, brushless motors and micro servo's.


GPMG ..... are you trying to give 747 a hemorrhage .... :p

[BEagle]

I found the easiest way to stop the engine was:

1. Carefully place a finger over the carb intake - rather risky.

2. Throw a tea towel at the prop. Much safer - except for the tea towel!

Needless to say, one's mother did wonder who/what had bitten such a huge gash in the tea towel.....:rolleyes:

[hobie]

..... or simply run it up against a hard(ish) object ....

http://wrcs.org.au/news/2004/pics/040311.jpg

http://wrcs.org.au/news/2004/pics/040311.jpg