Short Belfast

[GPMG]

Hi there, just reading the 'Wish I hadn't said that thread' and noticed a mention for the Short Belfast and it piqued my interest.

Was it any good? I take it that it wasn't as good as the Herc although they look similar, was the Belfast a copy of the Herc design or vice versa?

[Pureteenlard]

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=355

The Belfast was (is? do Heavy Lift still fly them?) a good deal bigger than a Hercules.

[mayorofgander]

I think even Heavy Lift have given up on the Bel.Slow!!!

MOG

[GlosMikeP]

Known at Brize in my father's time as the 'Belslow', in keeping with its speed. Much loved in fact.

Under-powered aircraft with a cavernous hold. Much bigger than a Herc. Much. As a boy I saw it swallow 2 or more choppers (some years back now), not one of which would have fitted in a Herc.

[Pureteenlard]

As a boy I saw it swallow 2 or more choppers (some years back now),
Since she who must be obeyed set up the internet safety protocols it has been a long time since I saw anything swallow two choppers too . . .

[The Helpful Stacker]

40 years old and still hauling Clicky (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1080322&WxsIERv=Fubegf%20FP5%20Orysnfg&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=UrnilYvsg%20Pnetb%20Nveyvarf&QtODMg=Oevfonar%20%28-%20Rntyr%20Snez%29%20%28OAR%20%2F%20LOOA%29&ERDLTkt=Nhfgenyvn%20-%20Dhrrafynaq&ktODMp=Whyl%209%2C%202006&BP=1&WNEb25u=Wbetbf%20Gfnzovxnxvf%20%2F%20Geniry-Vzntrf&xsIERvdWdsY=9Y-YQD&MgTUQtODMgKE=Ng%20gung%20irel%20fnzr%20zbzrag%2C%20vg%20jnf% 20gur%20fuhggre%20pyvpxf%20sebz%20gur%20pnzrenf%20bs%20gur%2 0bgure%20fcbggref%20ng%20gur%20fcbg%20juvpu%20qerj%20zber%20 nggragvba%20guna%20gur%20fbhaqf%20sebz%20gur%20Orysnfg%27f%2 0ratvarf.&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=733&NEb25uZWxs=2006-07-21%2021%3A25%3A11&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=FU1819&static=yes&width=1024&height=695&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg%20%3D%20%27Fubegf%20FP5%20Orysnfg %27%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=4&prev_id=1087332&next_id=1044434)

[Pureteenlard]

Seems that Heavy Lift is still using one.
http://heavyliftcargo.com/

[GlosMikeP]

Since she who must be obeyed set up the internet safety protocols it has been a long time since I saw anything swallow two choppers too . . .
Never know your luck eh? And slowly too!

[Pontius Navigator]

The Belslow had Britannia wings as indeed did the Canadair Argus so you can't knock Bristol for that. The Belslow was a design contemprary of the C141. Except for some reason we didn't put jets on it.

It was also a dragmaster and had a lot of backend work done so that it could at least fly faster than a Beverley.

[movadinkampa747]

It was also a dragmaster and had a lot of backend work done

Do you know many dragmasters who had alot of backend work done?

[airborne_artist]

I remember walking past one to get to my C-152 when I did a quick flit from Luton to Stansted with my instructor in the summer of 78 on my FlySchol. It really did look to big to fly - sadly we couldn't hang around for it to start up and depart.

[Pontius Navigator]

Do you know many dragmasters who had alot of backend work done?

You don't expect a serious answer to that question do you?

[movadinkampa747]

Sorry, I thought it was a perfectly reasonable and serious question.:confused:

[mayorofgander]

Blimey...I stand corrected....:sad:

didn't think they were still going...good on them (it):)

Backend action......Hmm!! not for me..even in Gander where the view is almost always better!!!:ok:

MOG

[microlight AV8R]

Put it back in production with modern engines and a glass cockpit..... Who needs the A400M.

[TOPBUNKER]

Was there not a design project to put the C130 wing and engine combo onto them which was cancelled during the Wilson/Healey time. - I was but a child (still am!!)

[Archimedes]

IIRC, it was a C-141 wing with RR Super Conways. The C-130 element was a licence-produced RR Tyne engined aircraft, the BAC222 which (IIRC) was to have BLC to enable it to serve as a STOL transport.

[allan907]

14 May 1974 - XR 369 - my first trip in a Belfast and we did practice stalls somewhere close to Swindon. Sitting on the mezzanine pax deck and watching the wings and engines doing a desynchronised dance as the stall was approached was something to behold!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

As I remember it, the design began life as the Bristol Britannic. Lots of effort was expended on making her more slippery and ironing out her dutch roll tendencies. That's when the ventral strakes appeared.

We seemed good at putting good wings on draggy fuselages in the 60s. Armstrong Whitworth nailed their Argosy to a perfectly good Shackleton/Lincoln wing.

[BEagle]

One thing that has always amazed me about the Belslow was that it was fitted with a Machmeter.... Only slightly less useless than a gunsight on a Mark 5 Harrier.

Flew back from Wildenrath to Brize in one in 1969. Even with a triple seat on each size there was an ocean of space. I recall stretching out in the seat, the quiet purr (?) of Tynes.....and a rumble as we landed at Brize. Much, much more comfortable than the misery of the C-130 pax seating.

Another defence cut folly of the highest magnitude - we ended up leasing the HeavyLift Belslow for GW1!

I last saw a Belslow at Dakar during a gas-and-go turnround of our UK-bound FunBus. We took off a while after it and later heard the crew gallantly plodding along at FL160-ish.... Hope they made it home before scurvy set in amongst the crew!

Talking about Beverleys, the splendid Puddy Catt once told me about the time he was travelling in the boom of one somewhere hot and sandy when a steward offered him his compliments and stated that the captain had "requested the pleasure of his company for afternoon tea". Pud, being a true gent, duly accepted and descended the ladder - to find a table set up in the freight bay with white tablecloth and china. They exchanged small talk, sipped Earl Grey and nibbled on cucumber sandwiches (minus crusts) as the Bev stooged along at some 2 figure IAS, valiantly battling the headwinds.....

[GlosMikeP]

We seemed good at putting good wings on draggy fuselages in the 60s. Armstrong Whitworth nailed their Argosy to a perfectly good Shackleton/Lincoln wing.
Actually started life with the Manchester...circa 1935 first cut metal I think.

[Blacksheep]

One of the fleet had a de-icing failure on a trip back across the alps. The tail got steadily heavier and the speed fell down and down - but the stall warning never operated at the speed (or lack of it) quoted in the manual. We then spent many happy hours investigating, measuring and test flying to set up the stall warning to operate at a higher margin. I recall putting our test gear on the flight deck with loads of wires sprouting out of the electrical "wardrobe" next to the Flt Eng's station. We then went flying or I should say stalling, all over Oxfordshire and Wiltshire. One stall at each flap setting on each stall warning system nearly a dozen each trip I think...

In the course of this adventure we discovered that the Belfast loses 5,000 feet in recovering from a clean stall. I did manage to hang on to my breakfast but kept my packed lunch to eat in the crew room later. When the Belfasts went onto the civil register the CAA were so alarmed by these stall characteristics they insisted on a stick pusher - but then the Redhill mob would have wanted a stick pusher on the Spitfire if they'd had any say.

The Belfast was a dreadful beast to work on but we got lots of overseas detachments doing engine changes. Up until 1974, 364 held the record - five engine changes on one Eastabout through Oz and Honkers. I did the one in Gan - it took us five days to adjust the take-off power. Rolls Royce provided charts that went right down to minus 35 but only went up to plus 25. The lowest temperature ever recorded at Gan was 27, so we had to interpolate and do the runs at 2 am until we got it right. (The Rolls Royce charts worked fine for the guys who got the engine change in Gander though.)

The Belfast was a good test of engineering skills, that's for sure... :ugh:

BTW, in the 70's we didn't call them Belslows, on Brize LSS they were known as "Belslugs."

[Wwyvern]

I was based at Sydenham when the Belfast made its maiden flight. It landed at Aldergrove, from which to complete its flight test programme. Lots of journos crowded round the aircraft steps as the TP, Dennis Taylor (?), descended. Their main question was, "What's it like to fly the world's largest aircraft?" His reply was, "I just fly the front end and the rest follows."

[Smudger552]

During GW1 had many happy occasions stuffing stuff into the back of the Belslow. Came in alternately with the 'Guppy', a cavernous but utterly utterly useless aircraft. The Guppy always 'weighted' out way before bulkout!! Not a lot of use when you are loading pallet of Challenger armour!!

Last load that I saw going in the back of a Belsow was an 'Aardvark' mine clearance vehicle....a really serious piece of kit!!

Smudge

[Pontius Navigator]

We even leased them for the Falklands too. One day it pitched up at ASI complete with a periscope for an O-boat. 57 feet no bending, no problem. Now how long is a Mk 1 C130 freight bay.

The movers managed bless 'em helped I suspect by the resident SLATs, a loadie.

How did they do it?

[GlosMikeP]

BTW, in the 70's we didn't call them Belslows, on Brize LSS they were known as "Belslugs."
Now that's interesting. My father was a line Chief in 69-70 and always referred to it as the Belslow. Perhaps a name change at some point?

[Blacksheep]

My father was a line Chief in 69-70 and always referred to it as the Belslow. Perhaps a name change at some point?Lineys are always good at making up names. The Chiefs sat in the office all night pushing paper, so what would they know?

I think the slug epithet used in the LSS crew-room came from them slithering slowly but surely around the world, leaving behind a trail of knackered engine fitters and slimy patches on the pans. Unlike the beautiful and graceful Shiny Tens that we also looked after.

[GlosMikeP]

Yes, the old pot and pan always preferred the VC10 to work on but enthused more about the Belfast, and I do remember him cursing the engines so your slug theory might well be right.

[Pureteenlard]

We even leased them for the Falklands too. One day it pitched up at ASI complete with a periscope for an O-boat. 57 feet no bending, no problem. Now how long is a Mk 1 C130 freight bay.
The movers managed bless 'em helped I suspect by the resident SLATs, a loadie.
How did they do it?

The Heavy Lift website gives a nice, graphical comparison of the C130 and the Belfast load areas.

http://heavyliftcargo.com/belfastspecs.htm

[Pontius Navigator]

Yes, but how did they get a 57 foot load in a Mk 1?

[GlosMikeP]

Carefully....breathe in....open the DV!

[Stafford]

I saw a couple of Warriors or three on the ground at Batin airfield in Abu Dhabi in the summer (August/September) of 1990 in preparation for 50Deg C plus desert hot weather work up and trials (???) before the liberation of Kuwait in the February of 1991. Also met a motley crew of about 15 ITDU and GKN/Alvis ? personnel at the Gulf Hotel and the sober one who flew with it from UK told me they had squeezed all their kit into the Belfast at Stanstead a couple of days earlier. The civvy engineer also noted that the Belfast's ASI was calibrated in furlongs per fortnight.

He also told me that they fitted and flew a Warrior in a civvy C-130 which led me to question even his ex REME sobriety.

[Bigt]

Did I read somewhere that each belfast was designed for a particular role? Each airframe was slightly different re the ramp and handling equipment.....

[pr00ne]

Bigt,

No, I think you'll find that they were all hand built by Shorts in Belfast and therefore all had very subtly different flying characteristics.

[DX Wombat]

I had a nasty surprise when I visited Cosford recently as this Belfast appeared to be missing. I was relieved to hear that it is now tucked up safe and warm in the new Cold War Hangar. :ok:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/DX_Wombat/P1011341.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/DX_Wombat/P1011343.jpg
This is probably a better photo, I found it lurking in my photo files from a year or two ago. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/DX_Wombat/P1010123.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

Carefully....breathe in....open the DV!

Close.

Wrong.

Clue, the floor length of the hold is lees than 57 feet.

[ex_rigger]

Not many heavy squadrons can say they put up all of the manufactured fleet on a formation sortie. 53 Sqdn achieved this with the Belfast on 23rd December 1971. You can imagine the effort that was needed to make this happen and not without just a few ADD`s and LIM`s. The ten captains mustered in excess of 43,000 flying hours.:D

[Bigt]

I was more thinking along the line that one frame was the `preferred` one for say a puma move - whereas another was more suited to heavy boxes with a different roller floor. - all history now:{

[brakedwell]

While on Britannias in the late sixties I was called out to fly two Tynes to two Belfasts stuck in Bahrain.We arrived in record time due to strong tail winds and a very quick turnround at Akrotiri.The engines were offloaded and the combined payload of both Belfasts transferred to our Brit for the flight home. This was before the drag reducing strakes were added to the rear fuselage of th Belsow. These not only improved the cruising speed, but also also raised the 3 engine stabilising height over Turkey when carrying respectable payload.

[Cornish Jack]

BEagle
Re. your Beverley 'taking tea' tale - possibly apochryphal, although the original was not just afternoon tea, but a full three course lunch served on trestle tables, being recovered from Aden, with accompanying folding chairs. The originator was one of our more ingenious AQMs (WTH is a 'steward'???). The speed, by the way, was THREE figures, not two - although, admittedly, those three figures were relatively low.

[MoateAir]

My father crewed the Beverley out of Thorney, and I recall him telling about a trip back from Sardinia once with a good headwind. The captain had brought along his cine camera, and got some good footage over France of a steam train overtaking them.

[TeBoi]

I seem to remember some old MALM telling me a story involving some kind of water injection system to increase power for take-off? Does anyone remember about that, or was it the Beverley?:confused:

[ex_rigger]

Yes the Belfast did have a Water Meths system and I presume it was used down route as required. I remember topping them up at Brize.

[ex_rigger]

On the subject of heavy, bulky loads, in Dec 1975 I went with a JATE team from Brize to Dorval Canada in XR 365. We went via Goose taking a number of families out for Xmas. It took us 8.5hrs to get to Goose and some of the time airborne was spent playing football in the empty freight bay.
At Dorval we loaded a B747 simulator for BA at Heathrow. To get this on board I had to lift the main oleo`s about 13inches and drop the nose oleo so the load could be slotted in. It was an extremely tight fit and before we left Brize we measured each upper door apperture to find the largest ie 365.( Yes they were all different by enough to matter).
Once loaded we were at a max all up weight and ended up coming home via Gander and the Azores.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102481&page=2

See Serial 27

[Low Ball]

I never flew in an RAF Belfast but used to watch them disgorge lots of Army helicopters at Aldergrove in the old days of squadron roulement.

Then many years later I got my ride in a Heavy Lift verson Gutesloh to Al Jubyal via Alexandria for fuel and crew change. Beds, seats, a loadie who was a master of the 'fried egg sarny' and the bench seat in the back of the cockpit where we could sit and observe the take off and landings. Two Lynx and a Gazelle (main rotor blades only removed) in each the Belfast flew the majority of 4 Regt AAC's helicopters out to the Gulf for GW1. Coming back six lifts of C-5 but thats progress and it wasn't so comfortable.

Low Ball

[scroggs]

Did I read somewhere that each belfast was designed for a particular role? Each airframe was slightly different re the ramp and handling equipment.....

They weren't built for different roles, but they were all built individually, rather like ships - no computer-built modules to nanometric accuracy! There is a story (which I'm pretty sure is true) that in the late '60s, in an effort to use all this new freight capacity, the MOD attempted to charter the Belfasts out. The Americans decided to take them up on this, as they needed to move some rocket stages (Atlas?) and had nothing large enough and available at the time. A team was duly despatched to Brize to measure a Belfast up, and it was declared that the payload would fit - but it would be tight.

Another aircraft was then scheduled to pick up the load. Everything was prepared, and the movers started winching the rocket into the freight bay. But it didn't fit! In some crucial dimension or other, the Belfast deployed was significantly different from the one measured...

[DX Wombat]

I've added another photo to the list in my previous post. It was taken a year or two earlier than the others when we had the first PPRuNe Museum Bash at Cosford. :)

[Blacksheep]

You can imagine the effort that was needed to make this happen and not without just a few ADD`s and LIM`s. I don't need to imagine it, I was one of the poor suckers who had to work through the night in the freezing rain, so that 53 could have their nice photographs on the crew room wall.

43,000 hours for ten captains? Thats only 4,300 each. In the real world you'd need 5,000 to get on a command course... :rolleyes:

[...of course that's only 5.5 years flying for a civvy pilot. ;) ]