Tin Cans Against Battleships and Cruisers

[SASless]

I just finished reading "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" by James D. Hornfischer. ISBN 0-553-80257-7 published by Bantam Dell (Random House).

It relates the events of the Battle off Samar on October 25, 1944 and the next few days, when Japanese fleet units including all of their Battleships engaged an American task group of CVE Carriers (Escort carriers) and their escort group of a few Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts.

This was the only time an American aircraft carrier of any type was sunk by main guns of a battleship.

The account of the "Small Boys" defending the carriers by torpedo attacks and gunfire is simply incredible.

To imagine what it must be like to head into an enemy force of battleships and cruisers escorted by a dozen Destroyers, with two destroyers and four DE's speaks of great courage.

18" guns on the Yamato, and eigther 14" or 16" guns on the other BB's....8" guns on the cruisers.....against 5" guns on the American ships....seems like a one sided affair.

Then to endure three days and nights in the water after being sunk....with wounds, burns, and shark attacks, these guys are heroes in my view.

It is a book well worth reading.


http://www.angelfire.com/fm/odyssey/LEYTE_GULF_Summary_of_the_Battle_.htm

[brickhistory]

Concur, it is a good book and a great story. Took some guts to use drive one's DDs and DEs against the IJN big boys.

[phil gollin]

One could also mention the second battle of sirte (no CVE aircraft there)

[henry crun]

The name HMS Glowworm springs to mind.

[brickhistory]

Will have to look up the Battle of Sirte.

Glowworm? Was that the ship rammed into the floating dock at St. Naizaire (sp?). That also was a great read!

If not, please illuminate (get it?!)

Finally, while I'll let SASless speak for himself, it seems as if this thread is already turning into "hrumph, ours was just as good/brave." If so, absolutely! However, "Tin Can Sailors" is a fairly recent book on a not well known battle. Sadly, too many of WWII's events are becoming forgotten. Why bash a brave deed regardless of who's team played?

On that subject, watched a great documentary about the hunt for the IJM Yamato. That was a brave crew knowing they were going one-way only.

[SASless]

A while back I posted on the US Flag thread....posted photographs of a small island called Iwo Jima.

I also listed the casualty figures for both sides....and noted they were all brave men regardless of nationality or service.

World War Two as all wars involved great sacrifice by those fighting it.....what is wrong with acknowledging those that served so notably?

One of the Destroyer Captains won the Medal of Honor for this engagement and quite deserved so.

A Gunners Mate Third Class, Paul Henry Carr ,was recommended for the Navy Cross....posthumously. He died at his gun trying to load the last shell left....as he was dying from horrible wounds incurred when a round cooked off in the gun after his crew had fired 7-8 rounds without air ejection working. They knew the danger and carried on despite the sure knowledge they would probably die in the process.

The US Navy has a ship named in his honor.....the DDG-52, I believe.

Reminds you of a Boy Sailor mentioned in a thread recently......they and men like them set an example for the rest of us to follow. The least we can do pay homage to as many as we can.

[small_dog]

Apologies for the thread creep SASless,
HMS Glowworm was a destroyer that attacked and eventually rammed the Admiral Von Hipper, a German heavy cruiser. Inevitably, HMS Glowworm was sunk during the attack but the German crew thought very highly of the bravery and daring displayed by the destroyer during the somewhat one sided action. The Commanding Officer was awarded a post humorous VC.
I remember seeing interviews with the German crew, who recounted the tale, on North West Tonight a few years ago, and, again, they spoke very highly of the conduct of HMS Glowworm during that attack over 50 years ago.
The ship in the St Nazaire raid was HMS Campbeltown.

Cheers :)

[henry crun]

brickhistory: No bashing of anyones brave deed intended on my part.

I had not heard of the Tin Can Sailors before, and only responded about Glowworm because that was the first name that came to my mind on the subject of little ships fighting big ships and overwhelming odds.

small_dog has given a brief outline, more detail here. http://www.rickard.karoo.net/articles/weapons_HMSGlowworm.html

[SASless]

Ramming the Hipper would certainly qualify as an amazing feat of war at sea. That is about as close quarters as one can get without pistols, cutlasses, and pikes!

Just as the Germans spoke of the crew of the Glowworm....the Japanese did for the American crews in the water....manned the rails and stood at attention as they steamed by as they withdrew.

The Japanese actually checked fire when they saw groups of sailors trying to abandon ship when some of the vessels were sinking.

[brickhistory]

Apologies for the thread creep SASless,
HMS Glowworm was a destroyer that attacked and eventually rammed the Admiral Von Hipper, a German heavy cruiser.

The ship in the St Nazaire raid was HMS Campbeltown.
Cheers :)

Didn't know that about HMS Glowworm and apologies for mixing it up with the Campbeltown.

HC, thank for the link!

[Wader2]

Didn't know that about HMS Glowworm

Yes, we tend to know more about our own national stories than those of other countries. The narrative style is also more familiar.

I recall one I read a few (good few) years ago, Away All Boats Kenneth Dodson, a similar account of war at sea to Monserrat's The Cruel Sea and several others on war in the Pacific. I knew little about the British Pacific Fleet until I read Send Her Victorious by Michael Apps even though my father had been in the fleet train.

Also:

After a refit in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) at the Norfolk Navy Yard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_Navy_Yard) during the winter of 1942-43, Victorious sailed through the Panama Canal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal) to operate with the United States forces in the Pacific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Ocean). During this time, the code name for the carrier was USS Robin, from the character "Robin Hood," as the US Navy was temporarily "poor" in carriers. In April 1943, Victorious sailed for Pearl Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor) to join Saratoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_%28CV-3%29)'s Battle Group, at that time the only operational American carrier in the Pacific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific). Her initial operation was an attack on the Solomon Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands) along with Saratoga. Between May and June, 1943, Victorious and Saratoga covered the invasions of Bougainville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bougainville_Island), Munda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munda_%28Solomon_Islands%29), and New Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Georgia). In late 1943, Victorious returned to the UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), to the naval base at Scapa Flow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapa_Flow). The refit had included the addition of such typically American appliances such as soda machines and ice cream freezers which were ridiculed by the sailors of the Royal Navy upon its return to them.

[brickhistory]

The refit had included the addition of such typically American appliances such as soda machines and ice cream freezers which were ridiculed by the sailors of the Royal Navy upon its return to them.

But I bet they kept 'em! :}


Also wonder if the carrier came back re-equipped with other typically American appliances such as the Wildcat/Martlett, Avenger/Tarpon, Corsair, or Hellcat? :E

I did know of the loaning of one HMG carrier's for the Solomans after all ours were sunk/out of action for a time. Will also freely admit that Adms. King and Halsey, not sure how anti-UK Nimitz was, treated your Pacific Carrier Group rudely at the end of the war. Also, full respect to the guys who flew Seafires aboard with that spindly landing gear!

[phil gollin]

But I bet they kept 'em! :}


Also wonder if the carrier came back re-equipped with other typically American appliances such as the Wildcat/Martlett, Avenger/Tarpon, Corsair, or Hellcat? :E

I did know of the loaning of one HMG carrier's for the Solomans after all ours were sunk/out of action for a time. Will also freely admit that Adms. King and Halsey, not sure how anti-UK Nimitz was, treated your Pacific Carrier Group rudely at the end of the war. Also, full respect to the guys who flew Seafires aboard with that spindly landing gear!

Nimitz was regarded as both pro-British (against king's wishes) and also as a good admiral.

[SASless]

To some maybe.....but I would think not by the 24,000 casualties at Pelilu. The invasion of Leyte by MacArthur's troops negated the need for Pelilu which was designed to protect the planned invasion of Mindanao. When the decision to hit at Leyte was made, that placed Pelilu too far away to be a threat to the troops in the Philippines.

That wonderful Admiral Nimitz....decided to carry on since they were within a few days of the planned start of the Pelilu invasion and a great number of good men were wounded or killed as a result of that needless fight. He could have by-passed the island and gone on to something useful.