FAA IR not for use in an N reg

[tmmorris]

I know that an FAA IR grants (effectively) IMC privileges flying a G-reg in UK airspace, but I wondered what advice people would give on the following...

I have a JAR PPL(A)/IMC rating and an FAA PPL issued on the former. I fly fairly frequently in IMC and try where possible to fly an IAP into my home base, which thankfully is a military airfield with PAR and ILS and they don't charge IAP fees. I'd like to improve my standard of IMC flying and had thought about doing a JAR IR but realistically I'm not likely to fly anything turbocharged or deiced, or do much European touring, so airways wouldn't really be much use anyway.

So I wondered about doing an FAA IR. It would of course enable me to improve my standard considerably, both practically and theoretically. I could fly under IFR in the States - I don't do a lot of flying there but could well be doing more in future. And presumably if I kept it current, I wouldn't also need to keep the IMC current (? can I do my required approaches in a G-reg in UK airspace?)

What do people think - is this a good use of my money, for example, or should I just book an instructor and go and do more IMC work without pursuing a rating?

Tim

[S-Works]

Book an IR (not IMC) Instructor and do more training.

However you do not need turbocharged or de-ice for airways flight. i fly my 172 in the airways all the time. Very few flights cancelled due to lack of performance. I also fly a full de-iced twin and have only used the boots once this year.

The JAA IR is hard work to achieve but if you do a lot of flying is worth it. I have logged 200hrs of airways flying since finishing my JAA IR in June mostly in my 172.

[tmmorris]

I have logged 200hrs of airways flying since finishing my JAA IR in June mostly in my 172.
There, sadly, is the difference between us... I'd never find the time, let alone the money, to do 200 hours in 4 months!
Can I ask how much the IR cost you in total? PM me if you'd rather not admit in public!
Tim

[IO540]

I know that an FAA IR grants (effectively) IMC privileges flying a G-reg in UK airspace

Not quite. An ICAO IR is valid for IFR in a G-reg, OCAS (which means only Class F or G, but there is no territorial limitation).

To get the IMCR privileges (i.e. IFR in Classes D,E,F,G but expressly limited in the ANO to UK only) you need to actually apply to the CAA for the IMCR, by sending them a cheque (about £70) and your ICAO IR. You need a UK/JAA PPL also, of course.

TMorris - you have a PM.

[S-Works]

There, sadly, is the difference between us... I'd never find the time, let alone the money, to do 200 hours in 4 months!
Can I ask how much the IR cost you in total? PM me if you'd rather not admit in public!
Tim

I did the IR in minima which was 45hrs flying. I did it all in the twin as I own part of it and was only paying fuel.

Ground school cost me £1180 for the course and then 3 trips to Gatwick to sit the exams with travelling an hotel about £800. I passed all the exams first time.

IR practical I did over 6 weeks and cost me about £12,000 inc test. So ballbark I would say the whole thing cost me about £15,000.

I do fly a lot but to be fair I do use the aircraft for business transport as well as fun flying. I travel to Jersey/Guernsey on a very regular basis for meetings (and Kite Surfing...) and it's better to fly myself than waste my life away on the commercial airlines. IR was essential for ensuring the meetings happen and I can actually get home!

[waldopepper42]

With regard to currency of your IMC - I know that possession of an FAA IR automatically allows you to add the IMC rating to your CAA/JAA licence (that's how I got my IMC rating). What I didn't know was that the FAA licence removes the requirement for the IMC revalidations. I've still been doing the revalidation test every two years!

Have I been wasting my money??


WP.

[bookworm]

What I didn't know was that the FAA licence removes the requirement for the IMC revalidations.

It doesn't -- and AFAICS, no one has claimed that it does.

[IO540]

My FAA IR cost me about £2500.

But that assumes quite a lot:

I had all the FAA logbook requirements done, except the 250nm dual x/c IFR flight.

I already had a standalone FAA PPL (which takes care of some IR logbook requirements; some night time I think)

I had passed the written (cost £250 in the UK).

I needed just 10 days' flight training, 2 flights per day.

Weather was perfect (Arizona).

Total devotion to the "cause" while on the job; no messing about.

Extra costs: accomodation, the cost of (crap) American food for 2 weeks, airline tickets, time and money spent and wasted on TSA and Visa.

Still a lot less than bose-x's £15000 though. The difference is the cost of a year or two's IFR flying, with reasonable currency :)

200hrs in 4 months needs full-time retirement!


waldopepper42

I don't know the answer but it's probably moot since you could just let the IMCR lapse and (as you still have the FAA IR) just send another £70 cheque to the CAA and get a new one :)

[englishal]

practical I did over 6 weeks and cost me about £12,000 inc test. So ballbark I would say the whole thing cost me about £15,000.
That, sadly, is why I don't have one. If you allowed £5000 for an FAA ME IR it would be a fair bet, probably much less as you already have the IMCr.

With regard to currency of your IMC - I know that possession of an FAA IR automatically allows you to add the IMC rating to your CAA/JAA licence (that's how I got my IMC rating). What I didn't know was that the FAA licence removes the requirement for the IMC revalidations. I've still been doing the revalidation test every two years!

It doesn't. However, if you do an FAA IPC (instrument proficiency check) with and FAA instructor you can re-apply for the IMCr with your cheque for whatever it is.

My IMCr lapses in November but in November I'll be off to the states for some flying. At the same time I'll do an FAA IPC with an instructor (as part of my rental checkout) and get it signed off. Once back in the UK I reapply for my IMCr and get it for another 2 years.

I could of course revalidate the IMC in the UK in the standard way if I wanted to.

don't know the answer but it's probably moot since you could just let the IMCR lapse and (as you still have the FAA IR) just send another £70 cheque to the CAA and get a new one
Actually not quite. You have to have completed the FAA flight test or an IPC within 2 years to be able to apply for the IMCr (which is then valid for 2 years from the date of test or IPC).

[tmmorris]

Is the IPC what you do if you don't maintain the currency on approaches?

Tim

[IO540]

Yes it is, TMM.

I didn't know one needed an IPC to get the IMCR privileges. That is actually a bit of a hassle for a high-hour IFR pilot who easily keeps his IR current on rolling approaches alone.

[S-Works]

In perspective Peter, I believe you did a single engine IR. I did a multi IR and did the whole course in the twin. I could have done it in the sim and a single for a single IR for about £6000 or the last 15hrs in a twin for a multi IR for about £8000.

I was after an IR I could use not a tick in the box on the way to an airline job so I chose to do the lot in the aircraft I fly a lot and did a lot of overseas flights to places like Switzerland, France, Belgium rather than the routine Cranfield to Cambridge route.

September was a shocking month, only 40hrs...... (and before anyone questions it ask FD about the time he did and I sent the GPS log...)

[IO540]

Correct, bose-x.

My objective was the FAA IR, not any cost saving. If I could have done it in the UK I would have done so.

[englishal]

Though realistically for IO to add the ME IR he'd only have to shoot two approaches during the ME check ride, one asymetric.....cost ooh, about £20 more I suppose, ontop of the ME rating itself (probably 10 hours at $250 per hour).

I didn't know one needed an IPC to get the IMCR privileges. That is actually a bit of a hassle for a high-hour IFR pilot who easily keeps his IR current on rolling approaches alone.
Yes, if you don't keep up currency you need an IPC after the 12th month. However what I do is opt for an IPC every couple of years as my usual rental checkout (I go to the US at least twice per year) which satisfies the CAA with regards to IMCr re-issue.

[drauk]

For me the FAA IR was far far more expensive than a CAA one:

I co-owned a G reg. I had an IMC rating, then did the FAA IR (in the US, as one long cross country flight with a flight test at the end of it). So far so good, but then I had to buy an N-reg aeroplane of my own to go with it...

[Flyin'Dutch']

and before anyone questions it ask FD about the time he did and I sent the GPS log

Ask FD wot?

[S-Works]

Ask FD wot?

For a copy of the GPS log. Come on Frank get with the program, you are usually scalpal sharp... ;)

[Flyin'Dutch']

GPS log of what?

Not sure what you are driving at Steve.

I have never been asked to submit my GPS logs to prove any particular flights.

Have you?

:)

[S-Works]

oh for gods sake my GPS log that I sent to you. I still have the outgoing email and your reply. A bit off tangent now really.....

[Flyin'Dutch']

Ah

Gawd, at my age I am glad to remember what happened 6 days ago let alone 6 months.

Anyway back to the thread.

If you only want to get an FAA IR to get IMCR privileges it would make absolutely no sense to go that route.

As someone said, get a good IR instructor and do some good basic flying then do some worthwhile trips and get in the saddle (likely to take more than teh 16 hours as per the IMC syallbus)

If you don't have access to an 'N' reg and have no previous experience do the JAR IR written stuff (7 exams) and do the IR in a single over here.

When I went for the FAA IR I already had the IMCR and some hours beyond that so only needed the 15 hours FAA training so that all made sense in a way.

With the delays in getting the exam done and going over stateside and then deciding to do the ME CPL as well etc etc only a bit of change was left between what I paid in the end and what a single engine JAR IR would have cost (<- The latter is what I realistically needed)

All good fun to do and good to have though.

Ultimately if the aim is to have all weather capability you have to accept that it does not stop with the ticket. You also need to have lots of time and money to keep very current and a weather capable machine.

As Steve says when you have all the deicing stuff you will find out you need it rarely. Point is that you only know that after you have flown the leg; setting out without the ability makes for an uncomfortable feeling and cancelling/not bothering with a lot of trips from this time in the season onwards.

The debate is a bit similar to that of flying a twin. You carry that second engine around for a lot of the time. Problem is you can not suddenly grow one when the first one quits.

All good fun!

[Hour Builder]

I did the IR in minima which was 45hrs flying. I did it all in the twin
Pretty impressive as its a 55 hour course. Only reduced to a minimum of 50 hours if a CPL (A) is already held/completed. :confused:

[S-Works]

yeah that was a typo. have you any idea how close the 4 and 5 are on a keyboard......

[Hour Builder]

indeed I do. pushing a 4 then a 5 is a pretty impressive typo, when all you needed to do was push 5 twice ;)

[S-Works]

55555555555555555555555555555555555555555

any better?

How many hours did you do your JAA IR in?

[IO540]

I think a wind-up is being planned here ;)

A holder of any ICAO IR can do the JAA IR in just 15 hours' flying (SE).

[Hour Builder]

:O

dangle the bait and they will bite. sorry bose

I did my FAA IR in 40 hrs.

FAA SE IR to JAR ME IR is 20 hours, various routes but I'll got 13 FNPT II and 7 on a/c.

HB

[S-Works]

:O
dangle the bait and they will bite. sorry bose
I did my FAA IR in 40 hrs.
FAA SE IR to JAR ME IR is 20 hours, various routes but I'll got 13 FNPT II and 7 on a/c.
HB

Ah so you "ONLY" have an FAA IR......... :p

[Hour Builder]

i won't bite, but I would bet I am younger then you.. :E