National Service - could it bring us closer together?

[oojamaflip]

Over the summer, whilst watching the cricket, I was fairly disgusted to see Saj Mahmood being barracked as a traitor by Pakistan fans, as he proudly wore his England shirt. A large proportion of theses fans were no doubt UK resident and UK passport holders. Whilst I wouldn't condone people being forced to completely abandon their heritage, this struck me as a good example of people being happy to take citizenship and all it offers without offering the UK any type of loyalty. There have obviously been far more unpleasant examples over the last year or so.
My question for debate is this:
Should National Service be re-introduced?
My thought is that as well as all the well-trodden ground of NS instilling discipline into the feckless youth loitering on street corners around the nation, serving together might also bring minority groups into much broader contact with traditional English views and vice-versa. At present there is no mechanism to force young people from various ethnic groups to learn about each other and interact.
An Anglo-Italian friend at university had dual nationality and had to renounce his Italian passport because he refused to do their National Service. Would a return to National Service, as well as increasing manpower and instilling values into our youth also have a side benefit of forcing many people to declare their loyalties?
Good idea or stupid idea?

[airborne_artist]

What with the Human Rights Act, rampant PC culture and some over-imaginative lawyers, I can't see that it would ever get off the ground. Those of a religious persuasion (and that number would grow by 1000's of %) would claim a moral right to objection etc. so you'd end up with a few white, poorly-educated 18 yo lads hoping for a free meal and a bed.

[glum]

Lovely idea, but can you imagine trying to get the 'enthusiastic' ethnics out of their traditional dress? (I'm thinking Jack Straw and his request here).

What would you have them do? Train and then deploy to bolster the main army / RAF / Navy?

In fact what would they do?

Has this country really got the balls to instill disclipline in a bunch of people who don't wanna be there? Let's face it, we struggle to maintain a high level of discipline in our own regualr volunteers!

Would you still conscript those showing academic brilliance, delaying their University studies for a few years so they could learn to be soldiers? Or could we have an IQ cutoff?

Maybe we could start it earlier, whilst people are still at school and run it at weekends for two years. That way we don't delay the clever ones, and nip in the bud all those starting to go bad. You only have to look at 99% of ATC cadets to see how much better behaved and motivated they all are.

Good idea, if only we could make it workable!

[gashman]

Denmark manages it and it seems to work quite well. However, can we afford to spend the money doing a "baby-sitting" job or istilling morals and skills which should arguably have been introduced by parents?

Would this service apply to females as well as males? How would you avoid people going on "long-term-holiday" when their time for National Service comes? Would the more wealthy shuffle off to university to avoid the draft?

If these troops were to be killed in conflict, how would that go down? Certainly the population would be more likely to show interest in how we as members of HM Forces are treated and which conlicts we become involved in as a country.

GM

[BellEndBob]

Absolutely not. I don't want to be stuck in the desert with some bloody conscript. We are a professional volunteer force and should remain that way. As to forcing together different cultures, I think some of the comments are insulting to those who already proudly wear the uniform.

If you want to give the yobs something to do, put them in chains and have them pick up litter. That should keep them occupied for a few years.

As to this integration thing, just how many Brits, living and working abroad, have fully integrated into the host culture, none I'll bet. They will live in their little sections of town and all socialise at the same clubs and restaurants. We don't bang on about them do we? No, and so we should not.

[ImageGear]

National Service, the very words are contemptuous in this modern PC society, all take and no give. National Service, Boy Entrants, Cadets, all had their place in a Royal Air Force where there was still some pride in the nation and everything it stood for.

What now, the prisons are full, the yoof are revolting, the lunatics are running the asylum, whats changed? the lack of moral high ground to ever justify a call up.

Penal battalions I say, ship every significant miscreant out to the not so friendly colonies, put them in the line and extract every ounce from 'em till they drop. :E

Imagegear

[Roadster280]

As to this integration thing, just how many Brits, living and working abroad, have fully integrated into the host culture, none I'll bet. They will live in their little sections of town and all socialise at the same clubs and restaurants. We don't bang on about them do we? No, and so we should not.

Bob, I hate to pick a fight, but as a Brit living and working abroad, I have to wholeheartedly disagree with your carte blanche statement regarding expats in their own little clubs. I have done my best to integrate. I own a US house, chose a US car, have a US girlfriend, eat US food, support US initiatives, etc. I may privately (or on here) find things sometimes frustrating, but at the end of the day, I made a conscious choice to live here. That means accepting the cultural differences here. Granted the US is probably the easiest place to integrate, but also one of the hardest to move to legally in the first place.

When stationed in Germany, the Brit expats working as LECs usually socialised with the Germans, not the serving guys.

I would agree with you regarding the expats in Saudi and Dubai. I have experienced both of those, and agree with you there. But then they have to defend themselves against the culture there, as they are not allowed to integrate, even if they wanted to.

[Roadster280]

National Service, the very words are contemptuous in this modern PC society, all take and no give. National Service, Boy Entrants, Cadets, all had their place in a Royal Air Force where there was still some pride in the nation and everything it stood for.
What now, the prisons are full, the yoof are revolting, the lunatics are running the asylum, whats changed? the lack of moral high ground to ever justify a call up.
Penal battalions I say, ship every significant miscreant out to the not so friendly colonies, put them in the line and extract every ounce from 'em till they drop. :E
Imagegear

Quite right. Rigid discipline and unfailing obedience. Ever seen "The Hill"?

[Mad_Mark]

...serving together might also bring minority groups into much broader contact with traditional English views and vice-versa.

Strange, but I thought I served in the BRITISH Armed Forces and held a BRITISH passport :hmm: Being of non-pure English blood I personally am quite happy with my traditional BRITISH views.

But, I too am disgusted that so many people seek to live in Britain whilst not being willing to integrate or accept OUR way of life. And as for that young 'gentleman' a couple of weeks ago saying to a Government Minister "What right do you have coming into our community" - well I think you'll find that 'you' are actually in OUR community :mad:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[ImageGear]

Roadster:

"Quite right. Rigid discipline and unfailing obedience. Ever seen "The Hill"?"

Yup, saw "The Hill" at Swinderby too from the wrong side, took care of most of the arrogance, laziness and selfishness among the new intakes.

My older neighbour was called up for national service when I was a kid, he was a not so petty thief, arrogant, crafty and rabidly dishonest.

He tried to escape by going AWOL and made the mistake of going home after a few weeks on the run. He hid under the kitchen table but his mother "shopped" him at the front door to the Officer and an MP who arrived by motorcycle and sidecar.

After six months, which included time in Suez and Aden, he came home on leave and announced that he had signed on, loved the life and saw no reason to go back to a life of crime.

National Service in my opinion works:

Imagegear

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Personally, I think the Forces have enough problems without becoming a juvenile correction centre. Successive governments, the Media, the education system and Society in general have created this appalling state and the means of resolving it should not divert effort from the most professional organisations the Country has.

If it did happen, do you think for one second that the Treasury would provide sufficient funding?

[Roadster280]

GBZ - You're right of course, the professionalism of the armed forces could be seriously compromised, but then the military has to adapt to a changing world. The enemy isn't Ivan anymore, it hides, cheats and lies. At least Ivan played by the rules, by and large.

We can do without being undermined at home by the individuals in question, and if the military took an active role in destroying the internal enemy, it would be helping itself a great deal.

The Treasury of course will do as it is told by the Government of the Day. I am convinced that if any of these spineless politicians could find the moral fibre to fight an election based upon the return of National Service in the interests of National Security, to be funded by the withdrawal of funding for any and every aspect of the disaster which is known as "multiculturalism", the passive voice of "Middle England" would vote for them.

I'm only 38. In my basic training (obviously only 20 years ago), there was no dissent, no suggestion of PlayStation (had such a thing existed) taking preference over bulling boots. No choice. Making bed blocks that meant you couldnt sleep in your sheets and blankets, and be ready for inspection at 0630. Polishing copper pipework in the ablutions at 0400. And if you werent up to scratch, a few laps of the parade square with a rifle over your head certainly instilled in you a sense of "I'm not going there again". Even today I press my shirts and polish my shoes. What the hell is wrong with that?

Gentlemen, I give you "The Hill".

[Colonal Mustard]

Absolutely nowt wrong with signing em up for 2 years and getting them involved in construction,communications and painting kerbstones etc, technical and physical lectures will beat em into shape and give them skills in life,no need to send them to warzones though, unless they pass their 2 years and elect to stay in the forces, then they get weapon training etc........ooh i sound like a tory boy:eek:

[oojamaflip]

Civobs raises a good point - I've just looked at the national office office of statistics and even discounting the sicknotes, geniuses who get excused to go straight to university and various scammers who dodge the draft, we may still have a million teenagers to employ.
Could we take a portion into our forces and release another large portion to the UN after basic training, for peacekeeping duties or other UN development programs (if they insist they are non-handlers)? My father did National Service in Hong Kong and fifty years on it remains one of the defining periods of his life. I can't help thinking that we would end up with a much more rounded bunch of youngsters who's views and opinions when returning home wouldn't be so insular or self-obsessed (I know this doesn't describe all teenagers). Not sure how you could get around teenage girls getting pregnant to avoid serving though.

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Unfortunately, the background to all this conjecture might be relevant. In post war Britain, conscription was largely seen and accepted by the masses, who had endured the war years. The young people involvled understood, at a 'core' level the threats to the country and the efforts being taken to counter them. However, by the early 50s, there was much disquiet about conscription, both inside the forces and outside. Consequently, the idea was abandoned on both political and cost grounds.

Imagine today, trying to 'Force' Beagle's 'Yoofs' into uniform?! We can't even introduce JPA without signigicant difficulty, let alone organise and train up to 1-M Un Helpful, Un-Volunteed and Un-Motivated 'Yoofs'.

Who will train these 'Yoofs'? Where will they live? (We've closed all the camps), How will they live, and How Much will they be paid? How many more Speed Cameras will be required to foot the bill?

In short, it doesn't make either historical, economical, socialogical or political sense.

So....... I anticipate getting drafing orders sent out very soon, but only to those on the system... ie JPA.... :ugh:

Advo

[MR12]

not such a bad idea but the education system should allow sufficient inter ethnic contact and national identity building. where are the lines going to be drawn? not all are feckless or bad http://www.sociology.ed.ac.uk/youth/docs/UK_sociodem.pdf#search=%22uk%20demographics%2016-25%22
and what exactly would hmg do with such a potentially enormous military?:uhoh:
For what it's worth (precisely fa.) this is the closest so far to my take on the issue. Military training from the late teenage years is far too late in the day, politically impossible, largely irrelevant to our defence needs and a recipe for yet another generation of politicians who'll leave after two years hating the Forces. Better to make outward bound training compulsory from ten or twelve, with a week or two during a longer school year and perhaps a month during the summer holidays; no excuses for little Rupert and Jemima or little Chav and Chavette. Take the organisation away from the teachers and their idiot unions and hand it to recently retired NCOs who have proven records in bringing out the best from their recruits, especially on the practical aspects of fieldcraft. The point isn't to beast kids up and down the Fan (although many of the little turds deserve that, or a paddle across the Channel in chainmail armour); the point is to acquaint them with real life before they get chucked out of school : no reward without effort; no knowledge without application; co-operation doesn't involve a loss of face, and no imaginary deity's going to save you when you're up to your chin in a swollen river at dark o' clock in the morning. It needn't be savage but it must be strict and it has to stretch them physically and intellectually. And the parents have to be made to understand that life isn't risk-free; try suing because little Rupert was traumatised when he slipped into the river he was crossing and you get deported to Saxa Vord, or your second home (or benefits) taken off you.
Rant mode off.
Ray Mears for PM.

[Skeleton]

Nice idea but I doubt it would be allowed in todays Britain to work. The rot has already set in, we now have an "english" policeman objecting to guarding an embassy, and receiving "the full support" of his Commanders. That can not be right, surely? Lets hope others don't follow.

I could also see it being used as some sort of "Nationality" test,and those with a British passport as well as one of there country of origin will kick up such a stink, that El Presidente will roll over and say they are exempt. :sad:

[shack]

Originally Posted by BellEndBob View Post

As to this integration thing, just how many Brits, living and working abroad, have fully integrated into the host culture, none I'll bet. They will live in their little sections of town and all socialise at the same clubs and restaurants. We don't bang on about them do we? No, and so we should not.


You lose your bet. I live here, have taken French Nationality, live in a small village without any Brits and am very happy thank you. Now pay up!!

[mustflywillfly]

National Service sounds like a great idea on paper but I believe that we are beyond the point of no return now in this country. If we wanted a culture shift and instill some pride / discipline / activity into the nation then we should start young! I think there should be compulsory cadet forces at all schools both state and private. I spent 6 years in Air Cadets had a fantastic time and learned what and how effective and useful positive discipline is. Of course we should also introduce a national parenting class scheme where everyone who wants to be a parent has to attend classes on how to bring up / coach children, only then can they get a license to breed! I know that the society we now live in is partly down to the wussy Government that we have but I also blame parents quite a bit. I have two boys myself and understand how difficult parenting can be but it isn't that hard to coach, nuture and bring them up understanding that actions have consequences. Both my boys will be going to cadets as soon as they are old enough.

Anyway, UKPLC is going rapidly down the sh*tter, last one out please turn off the lights...

MFWF

[BellEndBob]

Roadster
I was talking more about the Middle and Far East.

Shack
See above.

Daysleeper
Fair enough. They do, however, maintain their own culture and very few become fluent in the host nation language. My point was more about people being comfortable in their own communities, not terrorism.

[BluntedAtBirth]

Much like the old air marshal in the 50s, I would still rather have a Gloster Javelin than 50,000 of them! We are supposed to be military services not a fall back to correct the failings of 21st Century society. We can hardly afford to equip our current manpower - look up whole fleet mananagment - let alone thousands more yoofs. We would end up as a large, lightly-armed outward bound organisation with a small cadre professional units bearing even more of the burden than currently - look up FGR Armed Forces.

[Colonal Mustard]

receiving "the full support" of his Commanders.


Rest assured he does NOT receieve the support of his commanders.........Public and private are two different matters.......secondly...

On the "military" issue, tonight (yes i`m slightly intoxicated following a reunion drink)i was waiting at Tower hill tube station for a train, three fellows who wore their "ex submariner" jackets were greeted by an ex military type (not known by me, but he stood out immensly ) who had a thank you to pass, they did not know this individual but hands were shook and a mutual bond existed for the remainder of the journey,funny stories were exchanged and a story about what "national service" would do, i observed this in the 3rd sentance such is the belief that it would be a result if national service was reintroduced..............im sure i will read this in the morning and have to decifer this thread but hey ho :ugh:

[Klingon]

Those of us old enough to remember National Service will tell you that the regular serviceman spent most of his/her time supervising the NS lot who would find any excuse to avoid doing what they wre suposed to be doing.

Put that prospect alongside EU human rights, a litigious culture who are more inclined to argue or cry to mummy who in turn writes to their MP who then torpedoes the staff chain with endless questions about poor Joe. Do we realy want NS today?:*

[Blacksheep]

Good point however I'm not sure when I last saw the British Expat community burning the flags of their host nation...Unfortunately, the people doing this in UK aren't "expatriates" they claim to be British.

We hear plenty about "rights" but nothing about duty. As an Englishman who had his British citizenship taken away by a change in the Nationality Act years ago, I'd like to hear a little more said about duty. I did my duty, only discovering that my citizenship had been cancelled when I applied for a passport prior to going on an overseas detachment. I eventually managed to secure "citizenship by descent" - a form of second class citizenship that doesn't automatically pass to my children or grandchildren - but its so annoying to see people who declare no loyalty to the nation demanding their "rights". As far as I'm concerned, citizenship rights should depend upon service or a specific declaration of loyalty - for those born in UK as well as those from foreign parts. No committment = no vote, no benefits, no health care, no anything.

National Service doesn't have to be in the military, by the way. Other countries require national service from their citizens in other areas and it works. In Singapore, apart from the military citizens may for example, serve in the police, or civil defence. They can even be conscientious objectors and perform their two years national service in prison. Everyone has a choice.

[mbga9pgf]

Check this out. Looks as if the yanks are seriously considering a return to National Service!

Click Here (http://thomas.loc.gov/)

Click "Bill Number"

enter HR4752 in the box.

Here is an Excerpt



H. R. 4752
To provide for the common defense by requiring all persons in the United States, including women, between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.



Apparently these bills however never make it much past the House.