UAV Questions

[mutleyfour]

Thought I might get some advice on UAV's and have a useful forum where we can ascertain the facts regarding the UAV and its operation.

My starter for ten:

Does the Pilot/MIL (Man in the Loop) acrue flying hours for the control of said UAV?

[DownloadDog]

I have it on good authority, that RAF pilots on exchange with the USAF log all their flying in their RAF logbook. Furthermore, they are required to take an Instrument Rating Test once a year in order to be 'captain'.

[mutleyfour]

I have it on good authority, that RAF pilots on exchange with the USAF log all their flying in their RAF logbook. Furthermore, they are required to take an Instrument Rating Test once a year in order to be 'captain'.

Does that include IMC?:}

[Snow Dog]

Do you get rates if you fly overseas?

If you have one, who files the Airprox?

Can you get a Green Endorsement?

What do you talk about in the bar?

What does an SCT include?

How long is crew duty? If you control 2 UAVs, is crew duty halved?


Only asked!:}

[mutleyfour]

Do you need to have an annual medical?

Do you receive Flying Pay?

Do you still wear your grobag?

[D Icing-Boot]

Do you need to be able to recognise a green Merlin with its door open?

[LowObservable]

Who is Spain?
Why is Hitler?
Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?

[movadinkampa747]

Where was that stooped and mealy-colored old man I used to call poppa when the merry-go-round broke down?”

“How was Trump at Munich?”

“Hi-ho beriberi!”

and “Balls!” all rang out in rapid succession, and then there was Yossarian with the question that had no answer:

“Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?”

[vecvechookattack]

They also must be indate for their QFI checks as well as ensuring that they are in date for all survival drills...particularly the dunker....very important they keep in date for the dunker.

UAV pilots are also required to remain in date for trappers, IRT's, Simulator sorties and of course their Aircraft Commander exams. They must ensure that they remain in date for the dentist and medical examinations...eye test are critical.

[Pontius Navigator]

The US UAVs have a crew of two. A commissioned pilot and an enlisted WSOp. They are controlled from the CONUS although there is a forward deployed control unit in Afghanistan; strictly speaking that is unnecessary. [I quote].

[hobie]

The US UAVs have a crew of two. A commissioned pilot and an enlisted WSOp. They are controlled from the CONUS although there is a forward deployed control unit in Afghanistan; strictly speaking that is unnecessary

I have to confess I see some great advantages in blowing the $$$$$$ out of bad guys in $$$$ etc and then going home to your wife/girlfriend for supper .... :)

[brickhistory]

Predators have a pilot and sensor operator. Global Hawk is an autonomous system although it does have a monitor team including a rated pilot.

The plethora of smaller UAVs flown by the USMC/USA are not controlled by rated pilots.

In US airspace outside of military ranges, UAVs must be under the control of a rated pilot per FAA regs since they (UAVs) are mixing into the civil meat-servo'd aircraft community and that on a VERY limited (read case by case) basis.

[BleepBleep]

Do you need to have an annual medical?

Do you receive Flying Pay?

Do you still wear your grobag?

I don't know about the first 2 questions, although I suspect that flying pay is still received - I can't see any of our winged brethren doing anything that will cease their flying pay!!! (Not too cynical!!)

On the grobag question, all pics I have seen regarding the UAV operations in the US show both of our chaps sat there at what is effectively a computer screen wearing their grobags!! Some things never change!

[LowObservable]

At Beale, guys who are actively controlling G-Hawk missions wear low-viz nametags when they are so engaged. It's a signal not to bother them, I guess, even if they have stepped out of the "cockpit" for coffee and a turkey sandwich.

[roush]

Do you need to have an annual medical?

Do you receive Flying Pay?

Do you still wear your grobag?

Yes

Yes

and

Yes

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

The US UAVs have a crew of two. A commissioned pilot and an enlisted WSOp. They sit at the edge of the roof of a tall building and to aid concentration and enhance reality if the UAV gets shot down the WSOp has strict orders to push the pilot off the roof.

In the UK of course it's the pilot who pushes the WSOp of the roof and then has the decency to jump after him.




I have to confess I see some great advantages in blowing the $$$$$$ out of bad guys in $$$$ etc and then going home to someone else's wife/girlfriend for "supper" .... :E

[Yeah]

hi,
I've got question to UAV operators.
I'd like to know yours opinion about instruments and equipment needed to integrate UAV with outside segregated traffic.
I'm studying CS-23 (ex JAR-23) and JAR-OPS 1.
I deducted that uav should have:
- appropriate autopilot (with preprogrammed way in case of lose comm)
- Transponder mod C, or mod S (better)
- TCAS min I, TCAS II preferred with some kind of GPWS (it could be programed terrain data in autopilot)
- NAV lights, Strobe lights

something else?

[VinRouge]

A big red self destruct button surely? :ok:

[TCAS FAN]

Yeah

Until a certifiable "sense and avoid" system is available it is most unlikely that there will be any flying of UAV in the EU outside of segregated airspace. The sense and avoid will enable the UAV to detect the presence of other traffic, whether or not it is transponder equipped, and take appropriate avoiding action. A number of systems are under development, but certification will not probably be acheived until 2012 or later.

You do not indicate whether you are looking towards the military or civilian market. If you are looking towards the civilian market, UAV pilot qualifications and currency requirements have not been agreed in the EU.

[Yeah]

Yea, I know that.
We are working on it, but I would like to know yours opinion about instruments and systems which are needed on uav.
I am trying to compose some rules for future certification based on manned acfts rules.

[Sun Who]

Yeah,

See CAP 722: Unmanned Aircraft System Operations in UK Airspace - Guidance | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=415) which should answer your question in spades.
There are no currently fielded systems or associated procedures which meet the requirements of this document.

Sun

[The B Word]

There are no currently fielded systems or associated procedures which meet the requirements of this document.

Not true. You can fly any Military UAV/UAS/RPA in segregated airspace under the rules of CAP722 if they comply to MoD regs. You will see WATCHKEEPER this year do exactly this.

Also, you need to get someone at the top to sign up to the risk - not easy after the fall-out over the Nimrod!

Finally, to take the risk you need a reason to fly these aircraft in the UK - at present there is no reason to fly DH3/MQ-9/H450 in the UK.

The B Word

[Sun Who]

I take your point B, but as I understand it, and having been involved in several planning efforts (MoD not industry) to consider the flight of Mil UAVs in non-seg airspace, I think at the moment any brit Mil UAV that were to apply to fly non-seg would have to obtain a CAP 722 exception approval.
The killer paras in the 722 that currently prevent CAA acknowledgement of CAP 722 compliance are 6.1 and 6.3. Whilst (highly theoretically) mil UAVs might get away with not complying with the ANO (as stated in 2.2.2.1 of CAP 722 the ANO articulates the requirements for civil UAS) and notwithstanding the fact that EASA regs don't (again theoretically apply to Mil UAS) and neither does the Chicago Convention, the CAA don't have to let Mil UAS fly non-seg if they're not CAP 722 compliant. I've yet to hear anyone declare any of the UAS you list as being so.
Very happy to discuss this further though as if you have a way round the wording, I and some peeps in town would be keen to hear it.

Regards,

Sun

[TheInquisitor]

hi,
I've got question to UAV operators.
I'd like to know yours opinion about instruments and equipment needed to integrate UAV with outside segregated traffic.
I'm studying CS-23 (ex JAR-23) and JAR-OPS 1.
I deducted that uav should have:
- appropriate autopilot (with preprogrammed way in case of lose comm)
- Transponder mod C, or mod S (better)
- TCAS min I, TCAS II preferred with some kind of GPWS (it could be programed terrain data in autopilot)
- NAV lights, Strobe lights

something else?

Speaking just for MQ-9:

- Autopilot - yes, triple redundant, plus robust 'lost link' programming and logic. It does exactly as it says on the tin every time it goes lost link.
- Transponder - yes, with full mode C. Mode S would be most handy, though.
- TCAS - No, at least not yet, but again would be useful.
- Nav lights / strobes - yes, just as you would find on any other ac. Also an on-board radio, allowing you to operate in the same fashion as any other air asset.

And yes, we do wear growbags, yes we do get flying pay, yes we do require instrument ratings, a valid PME, etc etc just as any other pilot in the RAF does. And yes, we are subject to CDT limitations, the same as all other aircrew.

Any more Q's (UNCLAS of course) feel free to ask.

[Yeah]

Thank you for your reply.
I was wondering about radio transmitter? Is it necessary?

If UAV operate in region where the ATC is active, the UAV operator should have contact with ATC. The controller can inform other airspace users about traffic. I'm talking here about weight saving if you know what I mean.
Sorry but my english isn't perfect.
I'm working on project where the UAV will be used over seas (coast areas), so the zone of flying will be limited (but not so small).

How about anti-ice or de-ice systems? Do you know any producer who has such systems in the offer?

[The B Word]

Sun

There are plenty of manned mil aircraft flying that do not meet CS23/25 or any other civil airworthiness requirements. That said, they are not far removed from these standards - for example most of the mil FJs do not have TCAS I or II.

How do they do this? They fly under sovereign military airworthiness regimes and are exempt portions of the ANO in this country - that is how we could fly mil UAS/UAV/RPA in the UK in segregated airspace.

We have already done it - Jindavik flew from Aberporth for years in segregated airspace without conforming to CAP722. Also Banshee and Mirach are used today. So, it is possible if there is an appetite to do it - as I said before, WATCHKEEPER is awaiting an Airspace Change Proposal to fly in Salisbury Plain Trg Area this year (2010).

Is this the answer you were looking for?

Finally, the answers on MQ-9 show that it is pretty well compliant with CAP722 for IFR flying (not VFR in Class G). That is how the USAF, US Customs & Border Patrol and the Italian Air Force fly their Predator series aircraft outside of segregated airspace on a daily basis - the Italians are flying their Predators in EASA/Euro Control airspace as I type this message!

Regards

The B Word

[Sun Who]

B,

I don't disagree with you matey. I think the issue is segregated v un-segregated airspace. As you quite rightly say, UAS have been operating in segregated airspace for many years. The issue, particularly with the advent of systems which can operate BVR is how UAS might mix it up with the rest of us in non-seg. That issue was the driving force behind the drafting of the 722 and why Para 1.2 says explicitly that UAV flights BVR are limited to segregated airspace.
Even in the US, UAS flights in non-seg take place on a case by case basis and several requirements are placed on each flight to mitigate against the fact that none of them are (for want of a better phrase) CAP 722 compliant.

Sun.

[The B Word]

We're in agreement by the looks of it...

The next generation of MQ-9 (MQ-9B?), known as the GUARDIAN (sounds like a cr@p newspaper to me), will have some great enhancements:

New features slated for first use on the Guardian include an electromagnetic expulsion de-icing system for wing and tail leading edges, an onboard traffic alert and collision avoidance system, a laser altimeter-based landing guidance system for pilots at altitudes below 100ft (30m), and a Jeppesen electronic flight bag for mission planning and weather information in the ground control station.

Guardian leads Predator B modernisation push (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/12/14/336046/guardian-leads-predator-b-modernisation-push.html)

[L J R]

The practicalities of the segregated airspace bit in the US is not as cut and dry as you might think.....

As stated earlier, USAF Reapers fly in Civil controlled airspace daily from Creech AFB. The Los Angeles Centre (and Salt Lake Centre) airspace that is utilised is not segregated per se, (More of a memorandum of understanding) but the ATC controllers are aware that the aircraft will go home (following a nominated delay) along a previously agreed route. All the PRA pilot has to do is in this instance is to call LA Centre on the phone and say that the RPA IS comming their way at time xxx. Up until then the airspace is fully useable by ATC for 'normal' activity. Whilst the RPA is in transit (under full control) whilst in civil controlled airspace, it is treated like all other aircraft - and normal separation standards are applied, IFF coded assigned, ATC freqs monitored etc..

If the aircraft loses link (and goes home following the announced delay) - it changes its IFF code to a recognised setting...


A flight plan is submitted and an ATC clearance is obtained and the pilot talks (From the RPA) to ATC agencies.


Crews go to great lengths to ensure that this will happen on the rare occasion that the RPA loses Ku (Satelite) link.



I was wondering about radio transmitter? Is it necessary?

- YES! - If you want to fly in any airspace, you need to talk to someone.

[Yeah]

- YES! - If you want to fly in any airspace, you need to talk to someone.

Almost right... in Airspace Class G you don't have to use radio communication.

But you misunderstood my question...
I was wondering if radio is necessary ON BOARD or only it can be used by operator.

[L J R]

If your RPA is 9000 miles away form you (its pilot), it is difficult to talk to anyone near your RPA unless it has a radio on-board.

Aircraft in Class G airspace don't need a radio because it assumes a see and avoid principle is observed....which with most current UAS is not the case.

[Yeah]

ok, I through, that is possible to crate some kind of link between UAS operator and the ATC in area where UAV flies.
But I'm wondering which method would be simplest

[Mr Grim]

ok, I through, that is possible to crate some kind of link between UAS operator and the ATC in area where UAV flies.
But I'm wondering which method would be simplest


Putting a radio (or 2) on board would be simplest.

I have to say the whole CAA "see and avoid" soapbox makes me laugh - have you seen how much lookout the average airline pilot does?

[L J R]

Ok, I through, that is possible to crate some kind of link between UAS operator and the ATC in area where UAV flies.

Everything is possible to install in your GCS - If you are flying over the Seychelles one day, you will need all of that comm, Yemen the following day, :eek::eek:, Training in Wommera the next, JTAC in Qalat, Civil ATC for transit to LA Centre, and Security for the World Cup in J'Berg...Its kind of a lot of comms. A radio in the RPA will be the most practical kit to do all of the comms.


....the question is what do you want your UAS to actually do. Just to be uninhabited and fly around as a 'Drone' is all fine and dandy - but for it to actually do something - priceess......

[Yeah]

Ok,
I've got another question to people who know..:)

Which of listed below M&B definitions are useful for UAV:

Basic Empty Mass (Basic Mass) is the mass of an aeroplane plus standard items such as: unusable fuel and other unusable fluids; lubricating oil in engine and auxiliary units; fire extinguishers; pyrotechnics; emergency oxygen equipment; supplementary electronic equipment.

Dry Operating Mass (DOM) is the total mass of the aeroplane ready for a specific type of operation excluding usable fuel and traffic load. The mass includes items such as:
• Crew and crew baggage.
• Catering and removable passenger service equipment.
• Potable water and lavatory chemicals.
• Food and beverages.

Maximum Structural Landing Mass (MSLM) the maximum permissible total aeroplane mass on landing in normal circumstances.
Maximum Structural Take-Off Mass (MSTOM) the maximum permissible total aeroplane mass at the start of the take-off run.
Maximum Structural Taxi Mass is the structural limitation of the mass of the aeroplane at commencement of taxi.
Maximum Zero Fuel Mass (MZFM) is the maximum permissible mass of an aeroplane with no usable fuel.
Operating Mass (OM) is the DOM plus fuel but without traffic load.
Performance Limited Landing Mass (PLLM) is the mass subject to the landing aerodrome
limitations.
Performance Limited Take-Off Mass (PLTOM) is the take-off mass subject to departure aerodrome limitations.
Regulated Landing Mass (RLM) is the lowest of the ’performance limited’ landing mass and ’structural limited’ landing mass.
Regulated Take-Off Mass (RTOM) is the lowest of the ’performance limited’ TOM and ’structural limited’ TOM.
Take-Off Mass (TOM) is the mass of the aeroplane including everything and everyone contained within it at the start of the take-off run.
Taxi Mass is the mass of the aeroplane at the start of the taxi (at departure from the loading gate). Sometimes referred to as Ramp Mass.
Traffic Load (TL) is the total mass of passengers, baggage and cargo, including any ’non-revenue’ load.
Useful Load is the total mass of the passengers, baggage and cargo, including any non-revenue load and usable fuel. It is the difference between the Dry Operating Mass and the Take-Off Mass.
Zero Fuel Mass (ZFM) is DOM plus traffic load but excluding fuel.

f.e. Is any UAV wit MSLM?
Or maybe someone know where I can find information like this about uavs?

[L J R]

All of the above without the rations....

Apply aviation legislation to UAVs like any other aircraft, and you will understand what is involved with RPA activity.

Airworthiness is not just a manned principle.