CS vs. Mil Pay

[BellEndBob]

Moved from Wounded Para thread:

Slightly off thread but to highlight Beagles point about the state of the Armed Forces.

I have an Army mate who has just arrived in the sand to do 6 months in a Staff type post. He is in charge of 12 civilians who are engaged in the 'infrastructure' side of life. Due to the nature of the work he has, for the first time in his career, been assigned his own personal clerk. A Civil Servant from the lower grades. This young chap is on £350.00 per day, TAX FREE, plus amassing loads of time off when he returns.

I think the time has come for our leadership to stand and be counted. This lad, and good luck to him, has a powerful Union/Lobby behind him, hence his package. We, on the other hand, are still suffering from the Grin and Bear it days of yore. Enough is enough.

In a cost cutting measure, my mate says thay have hired Bangladeshi's to do the catering. As these people do not know the difference between a p!ss pot and a washing up pot (and yes, I speak from experience so put your PC swords away), said friend has had the runs for just over a week now, along with a lot of others.

Finally, the man in charge of the Army says they are coping. My mate is in the RA. He got snaffled for this desk job because, see if you can guess, yep, noone else available.

[nigegilb]

I would imagine that if the hygiene is that bad it is perfectly possible that all the troops serving in the war zone and paying income tax, council tax,car tax and tv license could actually go sick. For, say 2 or 3 days?? :E :

[Jimlad1]

" A Civil Servant from the lower grades. This young chap is on £350.00 per day, TAX FREE, plus amassing loads of time off when he returns."

TOTAL UTTER CR*P

No civil servant to my knowledge (and I say this as one who did 6 months in the sandpit as a CS) is on tax free salary. Furthermore, I'd have dreamed of being on £350 per day.

If this guy is an admin clerk, then the very best rate he's on - including all his overseas allowances, its going to be less than £200 per day.Realistically it'll be less than £150.

The CS (read MOD) deploy civillians into theatre, and yes the pay package is enhanced - BUT - as a salutary note, civillians are on average about 30-50% underpaid compared to their military equivalent grades back in the UK. The extra pay is a hardship allowance (much like X factor) and overtime to reflect the extra hours worked (and this isn't as much cash as you might think).

Put in context, in my office in London which has a lot of C1 and C2's in (SO2 & SO1 types), the highest paid guy is our Army corporal.

[BellEndBob]

Like you said 'to your knowledge'!!

Even 150 pounds a day is a disgrace. Much more than the servicemen and women who endure far more hardship than this lot. As to less pay in the UK, there might be a reason for that............37 hour week, flexi time, weekends, Bank Holidays off, Xmas and New year...and so on.

Tried to get some of ours to do a couple of evenings last year. Gave up after the bleating, time off for stress, Union consultation, rule books, line managers and threats!! :*

[Jimlad1]

"Even 150 pounds a day is a disgrace. Much more than the servicemen and women who endure far more hardship than this lot. As to less pay in the UK, there might be a reason for that............37 hour week, flexi time, weekends, Bank Holidays off, Xmas and New year...and so on."

Just spent ages typing an explanation which PPRUNE promptly lost. Bottom line

Typical CS will earn about £13k extra for a 6 month trip, taking average salary to just over £30k per year. This is far less than the majority of troops in theatre who earn an awful lot with their allowances and package. The average deployed "D" grade (SO3) will earn about as much as a corporal in theatre.

CS's in BAS and Shaiba have the same level of risk as pretty much all the RAF types in BAS, living in same corrimecs/tents, eating same food and the same chance of being hit by a raghead cnut lobbing IDF into the compound. Also most CS's need to fly and go on the road a lot outside the wire, so are exposed to a high level of risk.

All CS's volunteer to deploy, and frankly I think its a seriously cheap shot to call paying someone who volunteered to put themselves into a warzone £150 per day a "disgrace". You may have a big chip on your shoulder about CS's but don't let that detract from the fact that an awful lot have been to the sandpit and been exposed to the same risk as you and for probably a lot less money.

Layoff the whining about the CS terms and conditions, its part of the job. Bearing in mind how often I've heard certain RAF types (admitedly mostly movers) cite crew rest, or need for sleep or need to get home to see family at lunchtime on fridays, and then come in late on Mondays - frankly I wish I had the same easy life as your average RAF type.

[insty66]

Jimlad
Your comments beggar belief!
I know several hundred airmen ( I suspect there are many more soldiers too)that would love an extra 13K for six months in the pit, personally I'd be 52K better of and I'm a smallie in the desert stakes!

As for your wild swipe at the RAF, that will make us all take you much more seriously:ugh:

[Jimlad1]

My point is not that the CS are picking up the extra 13K but the fact that the CS pay is only going up to bring it to the same level as the more junior squaddies in theatre. I fail to understand why the RAF have such an issue with that? Are you so arrogant that you think that only the "uber race" should be allowed in theatre?

Having spent plenty of time in and out ofuniform being shafted by Jobsworth RAF types (dare I say the magic word "mover"), frankly I stand by my comments.

[nigegilb]

Pay scales Apr 2006

Sergeant

Level 7 90.18 32,915 83.30 30,404
Level 6 88.52 32,309 82.67 30,174
Level 5 86.86 31,703 79.91 29,167
Level 4 85.20 31,098 77.88 28,426
Level 3 84.14 30,711 77.10 28,141
Level 2 82.06 29,951 75.21 27,451
Level 1 79.99 29,196 73.29 26,750
RANGE 2
Corporal

Level 7 81.03 29,575 72.87 26,697
Level 6 79.30 28,944 72.34 26,404
Level 5 77.69 28,356 71.77 26,196
Level 4 75.86 27,688 71.21 25,991
Level 3 74.13 27,057 70.67 25,794
Level 2 70.67 25,794 67.38 24,593
Level 1 67.38 24,593 64.48 23,535
RANGE 1
Lance Corporal
Levels 5-9 only


Private
Levels 1-7 only

Level 9 70.67 25,794 59.17 21,597
Level 8 67.38 24,593 57.10 20,841
Level 7 64.48 23,535 54.60 19,929
Level 6 61.65 22,502 52.36 19,111
Level 5 58.79 21,458 50.26 18,344
Level 4 53.17 19,407 47.69 17,406
Level 3 49.45 18,049 43.85 16,005
Level 2 44.79 16,348 41.55 15,165
Level 1 39.24 14,322 39.24 14,322
New Entrant Rate

33.32 12,161

[Jimlad1]

Thats a basic pay chart - does that include X-Factor?
Also bear in mind that when on deployments a lot of allowances kick in, boosting pay, as does trade pay or specialist pay. I know of very few guys in the forces who only get the basic pay band. Add in fun things like boarding school allowances, missed meal allowances, free travel in London, subsidised accommodation, an excellent pension/gratuity etc and the packages value adds up considerably.

CS do not recieve X factor, are only paid for days worked and as such need a salary boost when deployed to compensate for the change in working conditions. Seems fair to me - I can imagine the screams of protest were the MOD to do away with X Factor for personnel who deploy.

[rudekid]

Jimlad

Thankfully PPRUNE has a system which allows me to ignore moronic posts and posters.

Goodbye!:}

[nigegilb]

Jimlad, would you care to post the CS pay scales please. Remember a lot of the casualties have been very young squaddies earning around £1000 per month after tax. Someone please provide the additional pay for service abroad. When I served it was around £5 per day, taxed. You should tread very carefully with your argument to be honest I think it sucks.

PS If you don't post the scales I will.

[PompeySailor]

Thats a basic pay chart - does that include X-Factor?
Also bear in mind that when on deployments a lot of allowances kick in, boosting pay, as does trade pay or specialist pay. I know of very few guys in the forces who only get the basic pay band. Add in fun things like boarding school allowances, missed meal allowances, free travel in London, subsidised accommodation, an excellent pension/gratuity etc and the packages value adds up considerably.

CS do not recieve X factor, are only paid for days worked and as such need a salary boost when deployed to compensate for the change in working conditions. Seems fair to me - I can imagine the screams of protest were the MOD to do away with X Factor for personnel who deploy.

As you said, you should know the system ("Having spent plenty of time in and out of uniform"), so you should know that X Factor is included in all pay scales as a matter of course, and that "trade pay" or "specialist pay" is a misnomer unless you are actually doing a specialist job. You have also managed to forget about the allowances that the CS get - relocation packages, education allowances, assistance with travel, loans for bicycles, loans for season tickets, etc. The CS are NOT paid for days worked, they are paid an annual salary. You are also part of a pension scheme. Why would the MOD do away with X Factor for people who deploy? Stupid statement. Nice to see that the politicos are looking at a change in the Income Tax rules for deployed personnel. The CS are poorly paid, but you get what you pay for - we should know as we are on the receiving end of the monkey-on-the-typewriter on far too many occasions.

Let me guess, judging by your in depth knowledge of the system, and in keeping with the ususal CS competentices, you work in SP Pol with responsibility for Pay and Allowances?

[nigegilb]

You know what I dislike about the Civil Service? You could fire 100,000 of them tomorrow and the likes of you and I would not even notice. If you fired 100,000 troops tomorrow, British foreign policy would be on its knees.

Civil Service pay scales as promised. Oh, you need to add on £150 per day tax free.

EO Standard Scale

27,017 - 28,994 - 30,510 - 31,981 - 33,444 - 34,875 - 36,320 - 37,727 - 39,176 - 40,141 - 41,5071 - 42,8722

EO Higher Scale

27,017 - 28,994 - 30,510 - 31,981 - 33,444 - 34,875 - 36,320 - 37,727 - 39,176 - 40,141 - 41,507 - 42,522 - 43,540 - 44,555

Staff Officer

30,884 - 32,231 - 33,446 - 34,538 - 35,636 - 36,739 - 37,849 - 38,911 - 39,9221 - 41,2372

Clerical Officer Standard Scale

20,483 - 21,438 - 22,396 - 23,353 - 24,308 - 25,266 - 26,221 - 27,178 - 28,132 - 29,088 - 30,038 - 31,519 - 32,6831 - 33,2192

Clerical Officer Higher Scale

21,438 - 22,396 - 23,353 - 24,308 - 25,266 - 26,221 - 27,178 - 28,132 - 29,088 - 30,038 - 31,519 - 32,683 - 33,219 (636.62) - 33,938

[foldingwings]

I've heard certain RAF types ............or need to get home to see family at lunchtime on fridays, and then come in late on Mondays - frankly I wish I had the same easy life as your average RAF type.

Jimlad1

If you are the same Jimlad that I met last year, you are Wavy Navy! Right?

If so, I would lay off your comments about Friday afternoon/Monday morning absence since the RN have been practising it in London and elsewhere remote from Pompey and Plymouth since Nelson's days!!!!!!

Foldy

[Roland Pulfrew]

Thats a basic pay chart - does that include X-Factor?
Yes, but then you should know that!!
Also bear in mind that when on deployments a lot of allowances kick in, boosting pay,
Depends where you are deployed to, some do, some don't.
as does trade pay or specialist pay.
Incorrect. Specialist pay is paid to............specialists. Not everyone is a specialist.
I know of very few guys in the forces who only get the basic pay band.
You must frequent a very narrow circle. The majority of service personnel do not get specialist pay.
Add in fun things like boarding school allowances,
Only if you a. have children and b. wish to send them (for good reason) to boarding school
missed meal allowances,
which compensates you for the meal you have paid for at base but....er, missed!
free travel in London,
Subsidised maybe, but not free. All serviceman pay a contribution towards their travel, if you chose to live a long way from where you work that is your choice. We do not get a choice of being posted into London, therefore we are compensated for travelling - just as many civilian firms do.
subsidised accommodation
Again not subsidised. Cheap maybe, but not subsidised and certainly courtesy of New Liarbour now getting not that cheap!!
an excellent pension/gratuity etc
Actually not that great in comparison to civil industry and certainly poor in comparison to the (senior) civil service
CS do not recieve X factor
Because you are not expected to deploy or move on a regular basis, and when you do the Civil Service compensate you for doing so.
are only paid for days worked Not many companies pay you for days not worked. The only reason the armed forces are paid 7 days a week is because we often do work 7 days per week!!! Seems fair to get paid for it
I can imagine the screams of protest were the MOD to do away with X Factor for personnel who deploy.
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. That is what the x-factor is there for!!:mad:

[Wader2]

Thats a basic pay chart - does that include X-Factor?

The pay charts do include the X-factor. Me, bottom Cpl is my pay grade.

Also bear in mind that when on deployments a lot of allowances kick in, boosting pay these are compensatory allowances set by the FCO. They apply in similar measure military and CS = zero sum.

as does trade pay or specialist pay. I know of very few guys in the forces who only get the basic pay band.

CS get overtime, on call allowance, specialist pay etc - zero sum

Add in fun things like boarding school allowances

True but then you are expected to move from one end of the country to the other at all pay grades. CS mobility applies to Ds and above. zero sum?

, missed meal allowances, free travel in London, subsidised accommodation, an excellent pension/gratuity etc and the packages value adds up considerably.

CS uncapped actuals, free travel in London if visiting, subsidised accommodation because they don't necssarily want to live where they are posted. CS get same pension/gratuity albeit on a lower pay basis but that lower pay basis is on a 37 hour week not a 7-day open ended committment. CS get a better relocation package. zero sum.

CS do not recieve X factor, are only paid for days worked and as such need a salary boost when deployed to compensate for the change in working conditions.

Seems fair to me. Agree.

CS also get 80% allowance for courses and up to 100% in some cases. Servicemen get 20%. CS get a bonus on completion of recognised courses. Servicemen (ranks only) can get a bonus pay rise.

In short, horses for courses and CS deployed overseas certainly desrve more than their heath loving brethern but don't begrudge the servicemans' perks; many CS perks are much better.

Roland, I got sidetracked while writing. I see we have said much the same thing :).

[Blacksheep]

CS do not recieve X factorA bit of history.

Prior to 1970, we who then served were paid what amounted to "pocket money," with single personnel getting free messing and barrack accommodation, and married personnel being allocated free married accommodation, and "marriage allowance."

Then, in 1970 the "Military Salary" was introduced and we were placed on the same footing as a nominal "basket" of equivalent civilian occupations. Within ranks and grades we all earned the same rate and paid for our accommodation and messing. The "X-factor" payment was an additional sum intended to compensate for the difference between civilian and military working conditions.

At the time it was introduced, X-Factor was 10% of the basic military salary. Taking the difference between the military working conditions in 1970 and today, the X-Factor might well be as much as 100% (though unfortunately it isn't). That 10% certainly wasn't meant to compensate for the sustained deployments to combat zones such as today's miltary have to endure.

So Jimlad, pray tell us why civilians should get X-Factor.

[Jimlad1]

Gents

My apologies for not responding to your posts on my arguments today. My DII would not let me log in and post on pprune (anyone else have this problem?)

Assuming this thread is still active, I intend to reply in detail to the points raised when time permits tomorrow evening.

Five main issues:

1 - I have no idea who I am supposed to have met last year - you've got me mixed up methinks!

2 - Contrary to what some here think - I'm not advocating that CS get X-Factor. I am pointing out that when deployed CS receive a salary boost called ODA which functions in a similar manner to X Factor for the duration of the deployment. A significant and critical difference.

3 - My use of the phrase specialist pay was innacurate - I meant to use allowances - forgive my poor terminology. I will discuss in detail later.

4 - Query re pay table - serious query as in the AFPRB reports they produce tables showing pay both with and without X-Factor. As its some time since I last looked at Non Commissioned pay (no normal need to), I genuinely could not tell which chart was being put up.

5- If someone can show me how to get round DII log ins, then happy to post CS pay tables. If not PM me.

[foldingwings]

Please bear with me one last time while I attack Jimlad1 and his knob comments about the RAF!

My apologies Jimlad1; you cannot be the guy I met last year:
I have no idea who I am supposed to have met last year - you've got me mixed up methinks!

I have just realised that, at 26, you could not have been the Wavy Navy guy I met last year.

So, if you are 26, and have had such an adventurous life already in and out of uniform can you explain how that might be for someone of such a tender age? Cadets? University OTU/UAS/RNR? Chopped from the military? How much real service have you actually done?

Right, I'm done! Thanks for your time, Chaps!

[Skunkerama]

He was a boy soldier in Rwanda at the age of 3,
Gained the rank of kiddy captain at the age of 8,
Led the peoples front of Judea in the battle of Bury Park, Luton at 12 and 3/4,
Was picked out for SC training at 16 but failed cause he couldnt learn how to shave,
....................oh god even I'm bored of reading my post now.......can't type....another.......wor

[South Bound]

"The average deployed "D" grade (SO3) will earn about as much as a corporal in theatre.


This is the one that always winds me up - haven't met a D grade yet that could do a SNCO's job, and yet they swan around with this honorary officer's status. Drives me mad.

Also a bit unfair, but am in the mood for sweeping generalizations so no apologies!

[Monty77]

Excellent. This is like arrse banter. Would like to join in, but can't. pissed again, you see.

Light fading... limbs growing cold.

Name the film and win a prize!:ok:

[Maple 01]

The Cruel Sea?
Sound of Music?
Debby does Dallas?
Dr FOD and the wayward body?

[QFIhawkman]

I must admit that I too have taken your comments to heart JimLad.

To say that Civil Service types face the same dangers as servicemen just beggars belief. A close friend of mine (RAF) was patrolling the streets of Kabul this year. On £50 a day. So show me one single CS robot who would happily stand on route violet in Kabul searching vehicles, wearing a uniform, being a big target, for any less than your £150 a day.
Working on base at Basrah Air Station, Kabul Airport, wherever does NOT constitute the same risks as a 19 year old Regiment SAC getting "down and dirty" with the insurgents / Taleban.

"Ah but WE volunteer for it!" I hear you say.

Yeah so did he. When he chose to sign on the dotted line and serve his country. We're all volunteers buddy.

Crawl back into your hole at MOD.

You should be ashamed of your posts EVERY TIME another body is announced in the sandpit. I hope your current account balance helps you sleep at night.

[junglyking]

Jimlad,

The pay scales showing non-X factor pay certainly relate to Full Time Reserve Service personnel in the RN - not sure about RNRs, TA etc - but basically, if you're a full time CPO/WO/Lt/Lt Cdr etc working on FTRS, you're paid the full time normal service pay minus the X-factor. As we have quite a lot of these non-deployables past normal retirement age, they actually publish the tables for all to see - so those receiving it know how much they are going to get and so that PAS knows how much to pay them....or JPA does not as the case may be at the end of this month....

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Light fading... limbs growing cold.

Name the film and win a prize!:ok:

Homer said it in The Simpsons; err, umm, one of the episodes.

[Jimlad1]

Oh B*llocks!!

I've been in contact with a few of you via PM on this issue. Perhaps let me start by making a public apology. My posts on Monday were fatuous and out of order - my only excuse being that I was very, very tired and also rather hacked off on unrelated matters. I apologise unrerservedly for my "overpaid, overfed" and other comments.

Secondly, I would like to point out that I am not a new poster here to bait the RAF. I've been posting here for over 5 years, under my previous alter ego (Jimlad) and only changed when my previous log in died.

I would say that my views are being slightly misrepresented - I am not comparing the role of the average CS to that of a squaddy on the street in terms of danger faced. I was alluding to, but not very well, the fact that in BAS, where the majority of the RAF do not leave the compound, that the average CS faces a similar threat level and exposure to risk as everyone else - military/ ISF / civvy contractors and CS.

I have no truck (and thought I made that clear) with the D Grade is an Officer BS that you sometimes see. The grades exist as a hangover from when CS promotion occurred in similar timescales to military promotion, thus a C2 would be promoted at about the same point in their career as a Flt Lt would go to Sqn Ldr. The huge changes to the CS in the past 30 years have rendered that system obsolete. I would quite happily see the equivalency system changed. (For the record though, last time I did an Army course, the WO1 called me Maj Jim - when I asked to be called Mr, he threw a strop as he couldnt cope with the idea that not all Civvies like being called ranks that they haven't EARNED).

Personally, I don't think this is an appropriate thread for a Mil Aircrew forum - happy to debate / discuss individually via PM (or via Defence bulletin board for those of you on DII), but this to me is not the location for this debate.

Finally, it would be fair to say that although I'm a CS - I'm not an "admin claims filing type" and have been heavily involved with incidents where troops have been killed. I've stood on the tarmac at BAS enough times watching coffins being loaded into Hercs to know the difference.

[QFIhawkman]

Finally, it would be fair to say that although I'm a CS - I'm not an "admin claims filing type" and have been heavily involved with incidents where troops have been killed. I've stood on the tarmac at BAS enough times watching coffins being loaded into Hercs to know the difference.

Wow I'm impressed JimLad. You've been on the tarmac when bodies have been loaded have you? You're my hero.

Just how heavily involved were you in these incidents you cite?
Bullets incoming? Big bangs going off near your soft skinned truck? Or writing some admin drivel about the incidents (as I suspect) after the event?

You've made your bed I'm afraid. And your argument seems to still be along the lines of "hey we deserve the pay!".
Let me broadcast this to you clearly:

YOU DON'T.

The guys on the ground deserve better. You civilian wage mercenary "volunteers" are on a good number and you know it.

How dare you compare yourselves to serving airmen.

I'm not going to join you on the DII thing thank you. You've had just about as much spleen as I can vent for now. (And I'm not on the system)



I will make this clearer for you this time.
When you see bodies coming home, I hope you sleep better at night having read your bank balance.

Your type make my blood boil and I wouldn't p*ss on you if you were on fire.

[GlosMikeP]

Moved from Wounded Para thread:

A Civil Servant from the lower grades. This young chap is on £350.00 per day, TAX FREE, plus amassing loads of time off when he returns.

I suspect this story has lost something in its telling.

I joined the civil service after leaving the RAF and served overseas, where I was treated for tax purposes as a UK citizen, paid by HMG in UK. Taxed as normal.

There doesn't seem to me anything particularly exceptional about the young chap's tax position.

[wokawoka]

Also can I remind that the majority of the CS will sit in an office well behind the wire with te odd mortar falling there or thereabouts.
We, on the other hand, go sausage side get shot at (we signed for that haven't we, the defense of our country.....hang on a minute..?) but we earn our LSSA. 5 pounds a day taxed at 40%, ie 3 pounds a day.
So JIMLAD1 are u telling me that I should count myself lucky with my package of £3 a day for risking mylikfe in someone else's war, and getting 1 day off every 8 when i get back in the uk. Come to think of it why am I complaining?
Get away from this forum and stop talking a*se to people in the business who REALLY know what it's like.

[Wader2]

OTOH, sitting even further back, with service personnel earning far more than their CS boss one could challenge pay rates on employmeny law basis.

I believe this has happened successfully where a female supervisor was being paid less than her male subordinates.

In the military case it would be necessary, in UK, to separate out the X-factor, the 7/24 hr commitment etc, to prove that the serviceman was, pro rata, on a lower pay rate albeit had significantly higher pre-tax, take-home pay.

Overseas the distinction, say inside the safehaven, would be finely balanced and the C2 CS should, everything being equal, be paid at the same rate as his military equivalent and so on down the line.

Could be interesting if the unions decided to take that one up.






Now where's my flak jacket, oh sh*t, I handed it in.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

This really is A Grade slapstick. In a thread titled "CS vs. Mil Pay", BeB tells of a BJ mate who has a civie clerk who is alleged to be on £350 per day, Tax free. JL1 points out the daftness of the story and immediately, out of the clouds, dive n dozen shoulder chips in close formation!

It's a recognised tradition that a pointy will bind about blunties and, in turn, the blunties will drip about the even blunter. The Mod was quite right, though, to move this from the Para thread but I think he must have dropped it enroute to Jet Blast. I'm sure that any documentary evidence that tarnishes the sandurban myth will quickly be shouted down as irrelevant and, hey, why spoil a good rant magnet. Nige G had a fair go at providing some documentary comparisons but the Deity alone knows where they are from. If serious debate is intended, then, lets have one. If we are just in for a game of yah-boo-sucks, let's say so and we can all join in the fun.

[EODFelix]

Feel I had to reply. Firstly pay scales (based on the 2004 AFPRB and 2004 PPPA tables:

Min Max
OF5 65218 72083
OF4 56315 62254
OF3 40124 48055
OF2 31853 37883
OF1 13081 27453

B1 42608 58735
B2 35844 47031
C1 26002 34970
C2 20821 28702
D 16672 24146
E1 13024 19817
E2 10957 16672

If anyone is remotely interested capitation rates can also be supplied.

IMHO anyone on OOA is fulling deserving of the maximum amount they can get out of the Treasury. But beware of HM Treasury bearing gifts (aka new allowances, talk of tax free salary for OOA ops). How long until the bean counters decide that if they're paying an operational allowance why should they also contribute to the military salary via the X factor. How long until Gordon decides to eliminate this flat rate enhancement in favour of OOA/Excess Hours payments?

I write this as ex Military who since becoming a Civi has also deployed to FRY (96), SL (00), Iraq (03) and preparing for A'stan.

[BellEndBob]

Christ.....all I said was......:} :} :D :D

[akula]

Excellent. This is like arrse banter. Would like to join in, but can't. pissed again, you see.
Light fading... limbs growing cold.
Name the film and win a prize!:ok:


Carlito's Way:8 :8 :8

Where is my prize:ok:

[tucumseh]

C2 £20821 £28702

E1 £13024 £19817


Here’s a thought. The grade (C2) who, as a project manager, may be responsible for £100M projects and the airworthiness of your kit, or manage 200 staff in a workshop (read the Treasury approved Grade descriptions), can earn the grand sum of £1004 per annum more than the grade (E1) who, typically, may do the office filing.

The real problem, and what provokes some of the more juvenile comments about the CS, is that an increasing number are promoted before demonstrating the basic competences required of the previous 2 or 3 grades. There is a huge spread of competence across any given Grade; something that, in my experience, does not happen in the Services. So, I can name C2s who have managed both £100M projects and 200 staff, but I can also name far more senior management in DPA who would s*** themselves at the thought of such responsibility.

[dervish]

Is it not ironic that the two most significant threads on this forum (Mull & C130 ESF) point their fingers, fairly and squarely, at senior RAF officers?

The inference then is that many here have a downer on both Service and Civilian personnel. No favouritism then!

[thelynxeffect]

C2 £20821 £28702
E1 £13024 £19817
Here’s a thought. The grade (C2) who, as a project manager, may be responsible for £100M projects and the airworthiness of your kit, or manage 200 staff in a workshop (read the Treasury approved Grade descriptions), can earn the grand sum of £1004 per annum more than the grade (E1) who, typically, may do the office filing.


At risk of quoting the obvious, a grade one lance jack on £18,000ish might be solely responsible for the lives (or deaths) of the three other guys in his team. can't put a financial value on that.

Not arguing any point here, just think our underpaid service men deserve some serious respect.

[Mmmmnice]

Hardly had the attention span to read all the posts carefully; but......no-one gets conscripted into either org, so if you want to be in the mil - join it; and if you want to be in the CS do likewise. Standard rules apply - if you don't like the job you've got (due to pay, conditions, what other people you work with get paid etc etc), get another one?

[nigegilb]

I take it you disagree with FRI then? You think market forces should apply to the military? Even if we are left with a shortage of soldiers and pilots?

Just wondered, it's not as if we are at war or anything.

[charliegolf]

Nigegilb

Mrs CG is an SEO in DWP, that's 2 staff grades above EO, and gets about £32 grand.

I'd like to know where you think EOs get paid £30k+.

CG

Sorry for being so far down the reply list!

[nigegilb]

Mr CG, I pulled the figures of the CS Union website. Didn't think the Union would over state their members salary.:)

Please pass on my regards to Mrs CG

[EODFelix]

Nige,

CS and Mil pay scales for 04 on post 33. Haven't change much since then. Send me the url and i'll check it out 4u - poss a misunderstanding of grading structures and nomenclatures.

[Jimlad1]

The MOD system is set up with a payspine and target rate. CS's move up one point on the payspine each financial year (always assuming the unions/MOD agree payrise in time), until they hit the 'target' salary rate for the grade.

On paper and in theory an EO could just about earn 30k, BUT it would only be the most senior members of the grade who got it. On average the unions reckoned it would take 20years for most grades to hit their target salaries.

[tornadohotas]

Nigegilb

When you refer to having seen the payscales on the PCS website I think you have misinterpreted them. These are the scales that the PCS would like members of the CS paid and are far in excess of the actual reality (I think the theory is...if you don't ask you don't get)

JL1

as for an Band D being paid 30k, I am yet to meet colleague of this grade who is paid such an amount. In fact there can't be many C2s on this salary.

Furthermore I feel that it is about time that people started accepting that everybody, (well the majority!), responsible for the defence of this country, (whether mil or CS), do an excellent job. :ok:

[modtinbasher]

[quote=tucumseh;2891932]C2 £20821 £28702

E1 £13024 £19817


Here’s a thought. The grade (C2) who, as a project manager, may be responsible for £100M projects and the airworthiness of your kit, or manage 200 staff in a workshop (read the Treasury approved Grade descriptions), can earn the grand sum of £1004 per annum more than the grade (E1) who, typically, may do the office filing.

tucumseh

Been there and done this (happily now well away from it as it can seriously damage your health), and indeed I may know you personally.......

Do you happen to know what a C1 (ex SPTO) at max would be on these days please?

MTB

[modtinbasher]

Nigegilb

Furthermore I feel that it is about time that people started accepting that everybody, (well the majority!), responsible for the defence of this country, (whether mil or CS), do an excellent job. :ok:

torhotas

I applaud your comment. Well said, after all, both military and civilian personnel are working for the common goal. Unfortunately there will always be a disparity between military and CS pay, based upon equivalent skills and performance, and, as time goes by, the CS (engineers and other technical staff) will be replaced by contractors, who will then be paid more than their military or CS counterparts.. end result; reduction of output, increased cost, and you and I contribute to the bill.

[Jimlad1]

"as for an Band D being paid 30k, I am yet to meet colleague of this grade who is paid such an amount. In fact there can't be many C2s on this salary. "

Err, that was my point! On theory, it is techincally feasible if you believe the system and don't get promoted ever. In reality it is very unlikely to happen.

[MReyn24050]

as time goes by, the CS (engineers and other technical staff) will be replaced by contractors, who will then be paid more than their military or CS counterparts.. end result; reduction of output, increased cost, and you and I contribute to the bill.
The problem to be faced in the future is when the Operational Support Contracts come up for renewal the prices will go way up and the MoD will not have the staff to fall back on and have no option but to pay the increases.

[Chugalug2]

Furthermore I feel that it is about time that people started accepting that everybody, (well the majority!), responsible for the defence of this country, (whether mil or CS), do an excellent job. :ok:
I don't see how anyone other than 'mil' can be responsible for the defence of this country, unless the 'CS' has formed some latter day version of the LDV! Given the parlous state of our armed forces, thanks to the enthusiastic attentions of the CS in implementing the Great Leader's dictums and MOD Policy, their ability to defend other countries would seem greatly in question, evidenced by other threads on this forum. When, and I rather suspect not if, the defence of this country is at stake, it will be interesting to see the 'excellent job' that the CS do. Defence is about closing with the enemy and destroying him, before he destroys you, you know like the lads are doing in Sangin? What did you have in mind, minuting them to death? My job is to pay the CS. Their job is to support the Military (sorry just have to stop and repeat that). "The MODs job is to support our Armed Forces", 100 times on my desk by 9am tomorrow! Their job is to defend us!

[TheInquisitor]

What did you have in mind, minuting them to death?

:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

On the other hand, they've had plenty of success killing US off, whilst bloating their own numbers exponentially.....might be worth a try!

Don't worry about the lack of ac spares for theatre assetts, or the GSE that doesn't work - at least Civil Servants can rest comfortably in their 1,000 GBP-a-shot chairs - that's the main thing.

[tornadohotas]

InquisitorRegarding 1,000 GBP chairs-Firstly, I have not worked with any member of the CS with a chair that costs this much (actually, I tell a lie - there was one with a medical condition). I have a feeling that you have not seen many either! I am well aware that there are shortages on the frontline with regard to GSE and a whole load of other things. Maybe you should contact your suppliers and they will then liaise with, wait for it, a trusty civil servant who will provision this equipment (that's if they can because they have budgets like the rest of us!). Chugalug" thanks to the enthusiastic attentions of the CS in implementing the Great Leader's dictums and MOD Policy";.You make it sound like the CS actually anjoy doing this. It is their job, just like it is that of the Mil to implement and carry out the wishes of the government whether they like it or not! You state that your job is to pay the CS. Funnily enough their job is to pay you also! As for minuting you to death, all I can say is, at least they know how to minute files properly!TH

[teeteringhead]

Do you happen to know what a C1 (ex SPTO) at max would be on these days please? 2005 C1 rates (2006 not yet published)

Min £26626

Target £35809

Max £38563

The min is spine point 36 and the target spine point 48, so that would normally take 12 years to get to......

[nigegilb]

DfID currently have 4 people in Helmand, good effort.

[Wader2]

The problem to be faced in the future is when the Operational Support Contracts come up for renewal the prices will go way up and the MoD will not have the staff to fall back on and have no option but to pay the increases.

There is another option.

At contract renewal the new requirement will sweep up all those things that were missed first time round (increased bid from the contractor) and scrub those things that were in but no longer needed (no reduction from contractor). The new bid will then be 3x the original (it was).

It was also a lot more than had been budgetted for :} so it was back to the drawing board and lines were crossed out, the contractors were asked to resubmit etc, and a new, x2.9 contract awarded.

The customer does not get what he needs and the contractor does his level best to recover that lost 0.2+ (mic).

Oh, and the number of contractors putting in competitive bids? You don't have to take your mittens off.

[modtinbasher]

There is another option.

At contract renewal the new requirement will sweep up all those things that were missed first time round (increased bid from the contractor) and scrub those things that were in but no longer needed (no reduction from contractor). The new bid will then be 3x the original (it was).

It was also a lot more than had been budgetted for :} so it was back to the drawing board and lines were crossed out, the contractors were asked to resubmit etc, and a new, x2.9 contract awarded.

The customer does not get what he needs and the contractor does his level best to recover that lost 0.2+ (mic).

Oh, and the number of contractors putting in competitive bids? You don't have to take your mittens off.


There's a little known clause in the competition process that allows previously successful companies to be "awarded" new contracts because it's 'already proven' that they've previously satisfied all competitive requirements. That's the way British Waste of Space et al manage to continue to fill their coffers at the taxpayers expence. It also may have something to do with many contractors' staff sitting in IPT's on a secondment basis and being able to rub shoulders with people in the know. But then again it might not, I'm only guessing.

[MReyn24050]

Oh, and the number of contractors putting in competitive bids? You don't have to take your mittens off.
There is another problem with future competion. If the present Contractor is the Design Authority for the equipment being supported any other Contractor wishing to bid will be required to pay a licence fee to the Design Authority which added to their bid will make it uncompetitive.

[Pontius Navigator]

There's a little known clause in the competition process that allows previously successful companies to be "awarded" new contracts because it's 'already proven' that they've previously satisfied all competitive requirements.

This was dressed up in one bid where the under bidder lost out to the sitting tennant. It was assessed that it would be less expensive to retain the sitting contractor rather than the cost of the underbidder and the cost of redunancy (if any) and the transition costs.

As the underbidder does not know this there is not a lot they can do is there?

[modtinbasher]

There is also another very good reason for the 'right' tenderer to be awarded the contract. It's possible that some very highly paid help with scrambled egg on their caps can then be hired on their retirement from the Service. They have a lot of useful connections you see. And the MIMechEs, FRAeSs and other assorted post nominals look ever so good on their swish letterheads! Mind you, their usefulness deteriorates over some 18 months or so, so they generally don't last long in the real world. I've even known some firms actually hire ex Service types to guide them through the tendering process, and it sticks out like a dogs dicky when the tender response is written in JSP101 format and reads like an Air Publication. But, all's fair in love and war I suppose. It's so galling though that it's the taxpayer that always picks up the bill when projects fail.

[the funky munky]

Hello all just wanted to get something off my chest. My nom de guerre is the funky munky and I am a Civil Servant. When I joined back in the eighties it I saw it a vocation to serve as I physically couldn't join up (not asking for sympathy so ram it!) nowadays I feel we are lurching from crisis to crisis and the CS is the present Governments whipping boy. Why bother with policies when you can publicly blame your Civil Servants and the Daily Mail will join in with the stoning.

It is my lot in life to ensure that you lovely girls and boys stay safe whilst flying your out of date and wheezing aircraft and get the job done. You can have anything your DEC will pay for and believe me they don't like paying for much. When you put forward a good suggestion there is much sucking of teeth and the statement "Sounds like requirement creep to me!"

For this I get paid the same as a Corporal, now I agree that I do shine a chair sat a desk all day but unless you want to pay 3x the costs by getting the DA involved or placing a staff officer in place again at 3x the cost then we do represent a certain value fo money.

By the way why not ask us when our pay rise will be! The CS are working dilligently despite no repect from the public, comrades or masters, no more money and to cap it all the risk that their jobs will be relocated, downgraded or transferred to the private sector.

One very unhappy chimp indeed.

[Willi B]

funky munky

If you and your colleagues are so dissatisfied with your lot, why not remove the intra venous fortnightly (or is it monthly in the UK) spondulicks drip, quit your sheltered workshop, and try your luck in a real world job?

Or are you so risk adverse, you can’t bear to be parted from the public sector mammary gland?

I'm not normally supportive of the UK Daily Telegraph. But the article at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/10/23/dl2302.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/10/23/ixopinion.html strikes a sympathetic chord in this self employed taxpayer.

[Aeronut]

Put in context, in my office in London which has a lot of C1 and C2's in (SO2 & SO1 types), the highest paid guy is our Army corporal.

C1 & C2 = SO2 & S01

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

[MReyn24050]

C1 & C2 = SO2 & S01
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
I know it is laughable but if one goes by the MoD Manual it is true. See the attached table of equivalent ranks.
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/ukds/2005/c2/table227.html

[Willi B]

MReyn24050

Equivalent public/civil service ranks!

In my experience that's merely another oxymoron devised by public servants to gain access to the Sgts' and Officers' Messes.

[Aeronut]

I know it is laughable but if one goes by the MoD Manual it is true. See the attached table of equivalent ranks.
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/ukds/2005/c2/table227.html


Thats just for train ticket entitlements and allowances.

C1 & C2 grades appear to be people that just couldn't get any other work.

[philrigger]

;)
Just to get it right for Beags.

After 10 Years as a Grade D (Ex PTO, EO equiv) my gross pay is £22,400.
I do not know any Grade D earning more that c£27.000.
This is not a moan. If I was that unhappy I would leave immediately.
For me there is more to work than money; Leave, flexi, working environment, travel time to work etc. That said, more money would not go amiss!
I work alongside Chf Tech/Sgt performing the same tasks.
The CS are still awaiting to see what our Aug 06 pay rise will be.

PS Last week we were told by a Vice Admiral that the CS rates of pay are proving to be an obstacle when to recruiting at the Abbeywood site.


'We knew how to moan but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[tornadohotas]

Willi B ..........It also helps people who retire from the service and then walk into CS roles (not that I am disregarding their vast experience). They can then then carry on in the manner to which many of them are accustommed. TH

[Wader2]

I know it is laughable but if one goes by the MoD Manual it is true. See the attached table of equivalent ranks.
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/ukds/2005/c2/table227.html

Surely the original point was that it should have read C1=SO1 and C2=SO2. Your link proves this and not as you implied the other case.

[Wader2]

Willi B ..........It also helps people who retire from the service and then walk into CS roles (not that I am disregarding their vast experience). They can then then carry on in the manner to which many of them are accustommed. TH

TH, you are entitled to hold that view and I have seen a fair number where the job spec has been carefully written to allow that move.

The other side however is that the regular servicies need these jobs doing but they have been identified as non-core jobs that do not have to be done by a fully paid-X-factored employee. The operational studies guys at the training establishments are a case in point. They need operational and wide service experience but they do not need to be current or employable operations type.

[MReyn24050]

Surely the original point was that it should have read C1=SO1 and C2=SO2. Your link proves this and not as you implied the other case.

Forgive me you are of course correct. However it is still laughable because in reality a C1 Post held by a Civil Servant(CS) in the MoD today is in fact equivalent to a SO2 Post and a C2 Post equivalent to a SO3 Post. i.e. the C1s are in fact holding posts equivalent to Lt Cdrs, Majors or Sqn Ldrs not the equivalent ranks as stated in the MoD Manual. I recall back in 2001 when recruiting a CS for a C2 position within a section where the Head of Section was a Major the Major could not sit as head of the selection board because he did not hold the rank required according to the MoD Manual yet he was going to be his line manager. Whether this is still the situation I am not in a position to confirm.

[Wader2]

a Major the Major could not sit as head of the selection board because he did not hold the rank required according to the MoD Manual yet he was going to be his line manager. Whether this is still the situation I am not in a position to confirm.

To interview a prospective SO2/C2 still requires an SO1.

The line manager may be an SO2 but if the C2 holds a similar rank in the reserves this requires the agreement of the C2.

[Wyler]

I've just been through all this nause. I leave on 30 Nov and start the next day as a simulator instructor at the same place. I will be a C2 CS. All this equivalency crap is just that. I have decided to leave because 25 years in the RAF, two marriages, 14 MQs, a total of 7 years overseas and a very tight No 5 is enough for anyone. I like the job but hate the bull**** so I have taken the option that allows me to keep the good bits and discard the rubbish.
The interview was painful to say the least because they had to find an SO1 equivalent (:} ) CS to interview me because my Line Manager (Ex student of mine) was of the same status (:} :rolleyes: )
The documentation I have been through is pure torture. Pages and pages of gloop written by god knows who.
I have taken a big drop in earnings (even with pension) but I get the added benefit of regular hours, flexi time etc. It is a good deal and any CS who bleats about how hard they work is talking pure hoop. It's a cushy number and I can't wait.



So there.

[Jimlad1]

I'm becoming convinced that certain people are reading this thread, seeing something and hitting "reply" before actually reading further.

I'm not comparing like for like when it comes to C1 / C2's and SO1/SO2's - I pointed out that they are seen as roughly equivalent. What I have already pointed out and will do so again is that the equivalency tables were drawn up in the days when promotion was a lot slower in the CS. Back then you would expect to be promoted to C2 (HEO?) after 8 - 12 years service, and a similar time again to C1(SEO). So in terms of relative experience, back then the average C2 would be roughly as experienced in "the system" as the average SO2 (although once again I fully accept they are not the same thing). Nowadays of course that has changed and people get promoted much faster - see my comments earlier about need to change these tables.

Also once again, given how often the services deride these tables, they're the ones that seem to perpetuate it. I've lost count of the number of courses I've run where they call me Major rather than Mister. I don't want to be called Major as I like people to know that I work for a living :E

[TheInquisitor]

I work for a living
That was tongue in cheek, right?

I have worked at ABW. Come 1630, you couldn't find a CS anywhere in the place - they were all out the door like a shot. The Mil there stayed until their work for that day was done. Hence it took the CS 3 times as long to get anything done as the Mil.

If MoD CS disappeared overnight, we'd still be able to function - and we'd be able to get things done a damn sight quicker too.

[Pontius Navigator]

So why would they call you Major if you are just a civvy?


Sir. If I let them.

[Jimlad1]

"That was tongue in cheek, right?

I have worked at ABW. Come 1630, you couldn't find a CS anywhere in the place - they were all out the door like a shot. The Mil there stayed until their work for that day was done. Hence it took the CS 3 times as long to get anything done as the Mil.

If MoD CS disappeared overnight, we'd still be able to function - and we'd be able to get things done a damn sight quicker too."

Yes it was tongue in cheek.

Why shouldnt CS leave at 1630hrs? This is the key difference in the mentality - forces are paid daily (soon to be monthly for JPA) so hours worked are irrelevant - you're paid 24/7 irregardless of being in the field or on leave and weekends. CS are paid to work usually 37 hours a week, and from the average CS's perspective why should they work longer? They won't be paid for it, it won't be appreciated it by anyone, and in mixed offices, it won't stop cheap jibes at the CS by the military. Its perfectly normal in most real world offices outside the military to finish work by 1630 - 1800hrs, depending on when you got there.

(Before you ask though, I do work late, as do many CS in busy environments - its a shame then that we have to get our meetings with the forces held by Thu PM, after all we'd hate to interfere with the sacred business of going home at lunchtime for weekend leave.)

[Pontius Navigator]

The Mil there stayed until their work for that day was done.


Me too but I get my work finished before 1630 :}

PS, safe bet but no emails after 1600 :)

[Jimlad1]

"So why would they call you Major if you are just a civvy?"

Because on many army courses, they get the list of names and grades of attendees. They then convert C2 - Major and C1 - Lt Col and go from there.

Frankly its pretty cringeworthy on 2 accounts - listening to a Army guy get stroppy when you ask him not to call you Major - in my case, I asked to be called "Mister" or if he had to call me a military rank, then Lieutenant as thats the rank I've earned through my own efforts. Secondly its pretty dire when you hear f*ckwit CS's happily go round accepting being called Colonel. I despise that as much as the next man.

[Pontius Navigator]

. Secondly its pretty dire when you hear f*ckwit CS's happily go round accepting being called Colonel. I despise that as much as the next man.

With you there Jimlad. I wear a uniform and can be seen to have a majority whereas I know one A** who is Colonel (up one rank) whereas he is actually a Mr C2 (down one rank).

Had great fun telling his boss I had a commision as well as being a C2.

[Wrathmonk]

Just to thread creep this back to BellEndBobs original comments I did a little “digging”. In an unclassified, non-caveated document it outlines that the Civil Service operational deployment allowance consists of two elements – the first is a flat rate £500 per calendar month and the second a variable amount that reflects the relative hardships and privation experienced while on particular deployments (currently between £1250 and £1750 pcm depending on theatre). These are subject to income tax so is likely to be a combined net monthly allowance of £1300 - £1700. It should also be noted that despite being in an operational theatre the working week is still 42hrs with overtime payable thereafter! This can either be claimed hourly, or, if approved a flat rate. This ranges from £1200-£2000 pcm gross, or approx £900-£1500 net. Potentially then an additional £2200-£3200 pcm, or in other words £13.2K-£19.2K for a 6 month det (and btw this figures cover the Balkans theatre as well!). An additional premium is paid if an individual is required to work on a bank holiday whilst deployed. CS are also entitled to an Operational Deployment Grant to cover the purchase of suitable clothes, luggage and personal toiletries that ranges from £180 - £500 (tax free) depending on tour length. On the down side, CS are only entitled to the same OWP as servicemen.:E

CS union - a job well done! Puts the little over £2K for a 6 month deployment into context (although I appreciate if you take the CS/mil rank equivalents previously quoted as correct then there is a marked difference in basic salary).

Makes you glad you get LSSA . . . . for the time being;)

[TheInquisitor]

from the average CS's perspective why should they work longer? They won't be paid for it, it won't be appreciated it by anyone
Neither will we, but we still do it!

One thing that struck me about ABW was the sheer frustration of alot of Mil guys who were working their nuts off trying to progress their projects, only to be held up by the CS - out the door by 1630 - "because we can!"

[GlosMikeP]

How many of these civvies have been to Sandhurst?
If you look closely enough you'll find a fair number have passed through Sandhurst, Cranwell and Dartmouth. Not all by any means but still a good number.

And not all cs are wasters any more than all mil guys are stars. I've been on both sides of the barrier and believe me, there are nitwits and stars in both camps, in pretty much equal proportions.

[GlosMikeP]

Neither will we, but we still do it!

One thing that struck me about ABW was the sheer frustration of alot of Mil guys who were working their nuts off trying to progress their projects, only to be held up by the CS - out the door by 1630 - "because we can!"
That's the difference between someone who has a life-style supported by a job he can resign from at a month's notice and someone with a way of life and career who can't go in less than a year or more.

Each chose their way of life so there's no point the cs moaning the mil guys are better paid any more than there's mileage the mil guys complaining the cs leave on time. Those who don't like the impact of the others' terms of service on their activities at work should swap sides.

[vecvechookattack]

Comparing a Civil Service post with a military post is fruitless. They are 2 completely different jobs, career paths etc etc. No X Factor for the Civilians. We get paid a shed load more than our civilian counterparts and quite rightly so.

[Jimlad1]

"How many of these civvies have been to Sandhurst?"

Very few - and that was my point!

"Potentially then an additional £2200-£3200 pcm, or in other words £13.2K-£19.2K for a 6 month det (and btw this figures cover the Balkans theatre as well!). An additional premium is paid if an individual is required to work on a bank holiday whilst deployed. CS are also entitled to an Operational Deployment Grant to cover the purchase of suitable clothes, luggage and personal toiletries that ranges from £180 - £500 (tax free) depending on tour length. On the down side, CS are only entitled to the same OWP as servicemen"

The only extra fixed payment is the ODA - roughly £1500 - £1750pcm - don't know where you got the additional £500 from as that no longer exists. The OT varies - the flat rate is £1500pcm. The actuals rate varies depending on grade but is unlikely to be as high as £3200pcm unless you are B2 (Gp Capt equiv or above). The bank holiday premium is merely the standard OT as would be paid to any CS in the UK (and for that matter most workers - when I was a kid, Tesco used to pay me a bank holiday premium). The ODA grant covers the cost of getting desert kit, as CS are not entitled to any aspect of military clothing - you go to Chilwell and get respirator, body armour and helmet and thats about it. For some strange reason, the majority of CS don't own desert boots, maglites, light trousers, lots of polo shirts etc. We need to get kit in the same way as the forces - the difference is we have to buy it as under no circumstances are we allowed to be issued with any kit - even kit bags. But hey thats not the point, after all we can't let the fact lie that the CS might get up to £500 tax free to buy kit that the military are issued for free can we?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

You don't live in Brum then!

[GlosMikeP]

Comparing a Civil Service post with a military post is fruitless. They are 2 completely different jobs, career paths etc etc. No X Factor for the Civilians. We get paid a shed load more than our civilian counterparts and quite rightly so.
In general, absolutely right.

[Chugalug2]

Comparing a Civil Service post with a military post is fruitless. They are 2 completely different jobs, career paths etc etc. No X Factor for the Civilians. We get paid a shed load more than our civilian counterparts and quite rightly so.
Couldn't agree more VVCA, so why the system of equivalent ranks, when CS guys themselves agree that it is at the least inappropriate, and at times embarrassing? Presumably that is the intention of the scrupulous way in which a civilian is addressed as Colonel throughout a course when he keeps asking not to be! I see no problem if Mr X is placed in charge of a project, if he is the best qualified to be so, whatever his grade! The RAF certainly saw no problem in making me aircraft commander, the junior of the 3 officers, and the lowest paid of all 6 crew members! If it is merely a question of who is billeted where, then agree with your hosts the grades that go to the ORs, Sergeants' and Officers' Messes. What was an irritation in peacetime will fast become a running sore in war, if latter day Walter Mittys strut their stuff with assumed titles, while the rightful holders of those ranks do their duty in far off fields.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Ooh, look. A mild mannered CS Gd C2, on duty in a foreign field, receiving training on the Browning 50 cal.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Golf_Bravo_Zulu/50calme5.jpg

[Chugalug2]

Ooh, look. A mild mannered CS Gd C2, on duty in a foreign field, receiving training on the Browning 50 cal.

Looks more like a Lt.Cdr. to me, but glad to know he's mild mannered with a fully loaded .50 MG! Certainly no Walter Mitty, that's for sure, well done Sir!

[Pontius Navigator]

And a few fair years ago judging by the DPMs.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Yes, a uniformed C2. You will find more in RFAs FORT ROSALIE, FORT VICTORIA, FORT GEORGE and FORT AUSTIN.

[Chugalug2]

Yes, a uniformed C2. You will find more in RFAs FORT ROSALIE, FORT VICTORIA, FORT GEORGE and FORT AUSTIN.
Gallant and Honourable Ladies and Gentlemen all, subject to the articles and hazards of War! I salute you all! I recall RFA Wave Victor at Gan, under the protection of the RAF, and displaying words to that effect along its side! Reprisal, IIRC, for similar markings attributed to the RN emblazoned on the runway! The sins of the fathers.....! http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon9.gif