RAF to reduce to 9 front line fast jet squadrons?

[pr00ne]

Hidden away in the depths of the Joint Combat Aircraft Basing Working study (JSF to Lossiemouth) by Group Captain Strategic Plans is an intriguing statement on the Tornado GR4 replacement, now known as the Future Combat Air Capability (FCAC).
This, it reveals, if the JSF is chosen, is to be 2 squadrons with a unit establishment of 8 a/c a piece plus an addition of 6 a/c to the JSF OCU. This to replace a current capability of 7 squadrons with a unit establishment of 13.

Add this to the rumoured 5 squadrons of Typhoons will leave the RAF with a front line of 9 fast jet squadrons, NINE!
( 5 Typhoon, 2 JSF and another 2 JSF as the fast jet element of the FCAC, plus the 2 RN JSF squadrons, that is if they can find any aircrew for them)

No wonder they only need 28 Hawk 128.

[ZH875]

How did Noo Labour let them get away having 9 FJ sqns, surely Comrades Brown and Bliar only require 1 sqn -and that is of comfortable VIP transport aircraft that will do Heathrow/Washington in rapid time..

[sense1]

This, it reveals, if the JSF is chosen, is to be 2 squadrons with a unit establishment of 8 a/c a piece plus an addition of 6 a/c to the JSF OCU.

A total of 22 aircraft then. Mmm, quite a small number - in fact that is so small that I doubt even a cash strapped British military would bother procuring such small numbers. Why not just get a few more JSF or Tranche 3 Typhoon - less support costs afterall, than going to all the effort to have a support set-up for a 'fleet' of just 22 jets. Are you talking utter boll**ks.......? Perhaps!

[pr00ne]

sense1,

ER, I think you've rather missed the point, what they are talking about IS buying more JSF, so that is an addirional 22 alongside, or part of, the original JSF buy. It would then be a buy to support the original 4 squadrons to replace the Harrier and these two to replace GR4, plus an additional 6 for the OCU.

It was the overall reduction in squadrons that took me by surprise.

Oh, and it's not me talking utter bolleaux, it's Group Captain Strategic Plans from HQ STC.

[Jackonicko]

Proone,

Check yer PMs!

JN

[Archimedes]

The study is available here (www.raf.mod.uk/downloads/documents/jca.pdf), if anyone who's not yet seen it wishes to read it.

[jindabyne]

Wouldn't such a paper be at least Restricted?

[BluntedAtBirth]

Pr00ne has hit the nail on the head - just add up the publically-released plans for Typhoon and JCA. The gap between the 'Mighty FCAC JCA' wing of 16 ac will, of course, be filled by whatever UCAV/missile solutions are drummed up by the programmes that used to be FOAS etc...

The next question, coming to a Public Sector Spending Review 07 near you, is , 'If we can do with only 9 FJ sqns in 2020 why are we wasting money on more sqns now?'

In the words of Private Wilson 'We're doooooomed'

[Archimedes]

Jin,

You'd have thought so, but obviously not... FOI and all that, I suppose.

[Wader2]

Archimedes see PM.

[Antique Driver]

Do we even need 9 FJ Sqns? For the past 5 years all we've used is AT and helos with a decent CAS package - less jets = more money for the fleets doing the work!!!:ok:

[Jackonicko]

And now here we are, six years on, with just eight frontline FJ squadrons (three Typhoon - 3, 6 and 11 and five GR4, II, IX, 12, 31, and 617) with every sign that the long term FJ fleet will be just six squadrons - five Typhoon (1, 3, 6, 11 and ??) and one expanded JSF Squadron.

9 Squadrons long term? I wish!

[recce_FAC]

HARVEST HAWK simples !

[Beermonkey]

Ah, has 'Admin Guru' been reborn as 'Antique Driver'? Surely that can be the only explanation for one of the most ill-informed, crass posts I have ever read here, other than flash baiting...

Same old story - more to do, less to do it with - I think UK PLC will realise at some stage in the not-too-distant future we can't continue with this fantasy that we're still a major power unless we fund accordingly, but until our politicians match egos to reality, we'll continue to man up and get on with it. Certainly makes life interesting!

[Rigga]

So that'll be ten line mechanics needing two 1/2" AF spanners, a Soldering Iron and a tube of superglue.

The rest'll be up to BAE.

[GreenKnight121]

Ah, has 'Admin Guru' been reborn as 'Antique Driver'? Surely that can be the only explanation for one of the most ill-informed, crass posts I have ever read here, other than flash baiting...

Admin Guru


Last Activity: 13th Mar 2002 18:24
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5th Oct 2006, 03:49 #11 (http://www.pprune.org/2890111-post11.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/246632-raf-reduce-9-front-line-fast-jet-squadrons.html#post2890111)) Antique Driver (http://www.pprune.org/members/150219-antique-driver)

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 39


Do we even need 9 FJ Sqns? For the past 5 years all we've used is AT and helos with a decent CAS package - less jets = more money for the fleets doing the work!!!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Antique Driver


Last Activity: 21st Jan 2007 11:51
Join Date: 16th Aug 2006


Not only are you winging about a 6-year-old post, you are complaining about a poster who has been gone from the forum for 5 1/2 years! :D

For your own sake... put down the beer.
;)

[Knight Paladin]

It is clearly flash-baiting though, although the Odiham mafia would genuinely have you believe that you can solve all the world's problems with SH. One word answer to that... Libya. I'd suggest that future appetite in the UK for Afghanistan-like ops will be fairly low, but probably much higher for ops of the ilk of Libya, so the future requirement for all aspects of air capability seems clear. That probably counts as a bite, rather than a full blown flash...

[Jackonicko]

Further to my post above, I'm starting to hear intriguing rumours of a bigger-than-five Typhoon squadron FJ force (made possible by retaining Tranche 1), and a bigger than single-squadron JSF force.

People are even working on the old 138 JSF number, I'm told.

Shome Mishtake, Shurely?

[Navaleye]

In that case in order to make up a "routine" CVF deployment of 12 aircraft how do you make up that number one when the light blue sqns have at most 9 a/c and the dark blue only 8. Unless of course you plan to mix them which is waste of resource.

[Bastardeux]

Jackonicko,

Where did you hear that gen? Standard rumourmill or a substantiated source?

[Easy Street]

Mixing squadrons is perfectly achievable if everyone flies and engineers to the same SOPs....

Oh sorry, my mistake, yes that is virtually impossible!

[ExRAFRadar]

Agree with KP - future 'actions' will probably be lobbing things that go bang from a distance. Do we really have the will for another protracted COIN engagement ?

[Beancountercymru]

The latest MOD Business Plan shows this

Reduce the Tornado fleet from 40 to 18 Force Elements and Achieve 5th Typhoon squadron Initial Operating Capability (IOC) to accelerate Typhoon Force growth and increase multi-role capability both by March 2015, so how many FJ Squadrons will we have then?

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/21363C3C-5452-435D-9D6C-7B73069B6E27/0/mod_plan_final_11_06_12_P1.pdf

[Bastardeux]

interesting JSF at sea IOC isn't until 2021, but wasn't one of the big reasons for reverting back to the over-complicated turkey was that it would be on the carriers before 2020??

[salad-dodger]

Jackonicko,

Where did you hear that gen? Standard rumourmill or a substantiated source?

Don't expect an answer to your question Bastardeux. The journo has put the bait in the water, now he waits to put the snippets that will come out on here together to make his story.

S-D

[typerated]

Have I just read that right - down to 18 Tornados 'elements' by 2015?
Surely that does not mean airframes? There are more than 40 frames on strenght at the moment - can anyone explain what 'elements' means?

I thought one of the reasons for the U turn to keep GR4 rather than Harrier was that the force was much larger and could therefore continue to deploy for long periods without running out of steam.

[Bastardeux]

S-D,

he had me all excited there, fantasizing about Leeming becoming a front-line fighter base again...a man can dream eh!

[Jimlad1]

Typer - Elements means the number of GR4s that the UK can deploy on operations, and sustain on operations. Its different to the total number of airframes in the fleet, which will be higher - say 40-50 airframes at a guess to sustain the maintenance and training requirements.

As for other comments ref Jacko, I'll echo them, don't feed the journalist, he's fishing for a story that he'll get paid for to publish in AFM or some other rag.

[randyrippley]

jackonicko

You have to understand that the F-35 force is all going to the FAA. Yes, they'll buy all 135, but over a ten year period - or longer. Given training needs and the usual losses that really only comes down to enough for one front line squadron of 12, plus a 20-strong training squadron. The RAF won't be getting any F-35
By the time they come into service there won't be any Tornados left anyway. The plan is for FE@R to be reduced to 16 by 2015, and withdrawn completely by 2017. By then the RAF will have one fighter airframe - the Typhoon - which be five squadrons, two air defence, three close air support. If long range strike is required then that will be carried out by the navy, probably from land.
The doctrine of the future will be exchangeability, so that while the F-35 will be a naval asset, the RAF will be able to demand first call on the navy to carry out attack missions as /when required. The navy's own priorities wil come second.
Likewise, the RAF will also be able to demand that naval helicopter assets share in the RAFs support helicopter role: the RAF will be able to prioritise use of the RNs's Merlin fleet