BA - Common Issues

[flybywire]

The moderators will forgive me for opening a new thread, but I cannot stand the fact that BA love us to feel like two (or more) companies! While I agree that someone starting with LGW SF needs more LGW specific info- and the same for LHR- there are some issues that are common to all of us. Whether they like it or not we are ONE company despite we all know the difference in contracts that "divide" us at present.


One issue which affects anybody from any department and indeed base is EG300.

This is the latest email I have received which I can openly say made me so angry and so upset I have even thought of leaving. Now it might only be the hormones doing the talking (god knows how hard I worked to get to where I am now) but I am so angry that I hope something major happens now or it will spoil my career. THEY simply CANNOT DO IT!!!How can they change the agreement so easily without consulting us first???By calling it "refinements"???

REFINEMENTS TO WORLDWIDE ABSENCE REVIEW INTERVIEWS (ARIs) – STAGES 1 & 2

"As you are all aware, absence is currently at unprecedented levels – especially on Worldwide. Additionally, keeping on top of Absence Review Interviews (ARIs) has been difficult. Consequently, we have reviewed the application of the EG300 process in IFS with a view to making it easier and quicker for all concerned. As a result, from 1 October we are refining the way we schedule ARIs.


Why change things?
Previously, if you reached an attendance trigger you would be sent a letter from the Attendance Team scheduling an ARI for a date in the future, sometimes as much as six months ahead. In addition, and on more occasions than we would all like, ARIs have had to be rescheduled or cancelled resulting in an increasing backlog. The refined method aims to deal with this issue.

What is an ARI?
It is a meeting conducted by a member of the Inflight Service Attendance Team.

During this meeting your level of absence will be discussed and we will offer you any additional support or a referral to BAHS if appropriate. We may agree an improvement plan with some attendance targets to meet over the coming months.

As an ARI is slightly more formal than a return to work discussion, you can bring a colleague with you if you wish. This is not essential however and the meeting can, and often does, take place with just you and a member of the attendance team.

How is an ARI triggered?
If you have had two or more occasions of absence in a rolling three month period or you have been absent for more than 4.5% of available working hours in a rolling 12 month period or you have been absent for more than 21 consecutive days, you will trigger an ARI.

What's changing?
If you trigger an ARI after 1 October your ARI will need to have been completed before you are able to fly again. If you can't attend the first, or a rescheduled ARI, within 5 days your ARI may be held in your absence.

After you have called the OST to confirm that you are now fit to fly, the Attendance Team will identify if you have reached a trigger in the EG300 process and call you with an interview time for the next day, if applicable.

If you do not attend this ARI another one will be booked for you within the 12-hour availability window. If you miss this second appointment, the ARI will be held in your absence. Once your ARI has taken place, you will be returned to 12h/24h until your flexi trip.

How will I find out when my ARI is?
A member of the Attendance Team will call you to let you know the time and place of your ARI.

What if I can't attend the first ARI appointment?
A second appointment will be made for you within the 12 hour availability window. If this too is missed, your ARI will be held without you.

Will I be disadvantaged if I can't get a colleague to join me?
No. The discussion is between you and a member of the Attendance Team and the outcome of the ARI will be based on that discussion

How will this help us tackle absence when I'm stopped from flying once fit?
Being able to hold the ARI as soon as possible after you have gone fit will help us identify any support you require to manage your absence more quickly."


I apologise for venting this out, people who know me well know how much I love(d) this company, but being a victim of crappy EG300 sub-laws myself I am absolutely beside myself :mad: :mad: :mad:

[yellowdog]

FBW,

You go girl. I do think the joint thread is a great idea. I would love to see more cooperation between the two units.

However can most LHR crew and more so the unions, honestly say hand on heart that they give a flying fcuk what is going on at LGW. The evidence I've seen over the years, unfortunately says no.:( :* :( :* :( :*

YD

[Flying_Sarah747]

That's exactly what I said in the LHR post flybywire! I totally agree with your anger and frustration!

I don't understand how the unions can help us if BA can change things like this at a drop of a hat, without consulting us and getting permission from the unions. I don't understand the point of the union? Ok, so a strike is one option we've got, but since BA seem to be allowed to change everything without consulting the unions, then are we gonna have to strike over everything to get what we want? It's not feasible and we wouldn't have a job anymore if it came down to that, so what I'm trying to say here and over in the LHR post is how can the unions really help us when BA just go ahead and do whatever they like anyway!?!?!?! I'm very worried, I must say. :(

Another thing...What actually happens in these ARI's??? I've not had the pleasure of having one!What happens if it is conducted in your absense? Is that a bad thing? Surely the same outcome will be achieved whether you're there or not, that being you're put into phase one of the 'process' (Please do excuse my ignorance on these subjects, I've not really taken much notice until now)

[Tess Tickelss]

So, if you're a commuter from Europe or long distance UK, you have to travel for an interview the day after reporting fit, return home again and wait for a trip............Nice one BA!!

[Off Stand]

Unfortuantely Tess, BA maintain that commutting is your choice. They stipulate that you must live within 2 hours of base and that would be their reply if you ever mentioned that. Again, sad but true.

With regards to being treated differently, that is so true. But more by the management than crew. At LGW, we no longer have a proper canteen and area for airport stand by crew, all display stands for the new club world, etc are up at LHR only, staff shop has gone and as for the quiet room, I'd be better off sleeping in the car park! When I started 3 years ago, we occupied all 4 floors of JB House, now we have the 4th floor and OPS on the 3rd, down sizing???

I love my job and flying for the company, just that some areas are so badly led, starts affect morale.

[marlowe]

Flybywire can you and your LHR and LGW collegues realise that there is more to BA then these two bases!!!! Crew at BA CONNECT are just as p:mad: ed off about things as you are!! The BA world does revolve around other places other than LGW and LHR why dont we all unite, there are an awful lot of use BACON crews out there if only you would take the blinkers off and look a little further than the edge of the M25!!!!!

[Off Stand]

Malowe, you are right. My apologises. Where are you based? If it is BHX, I collect my staff tickets from there, so feel free to give me a slap!!!

[banewboi]

Although ba con are employee by ba it isn't a mainline contract, i'm sorry but it isn't, bmi has baby, ba has connect. There's no point in standing together because we're separate companies.

[marlowe]

Offstand i would never slap you, you might enjoy it!!!! lol!!!! banewboi yawn and yawn again same old story from people who can never see past the M25 you are right in saying that we are sort of run as seperate companies but the bottom line is that BA ultimately pay my wages and yours. we all fly around on aircraft that are in the same colours, and from the customer point of view they dont see the difference!! we are all cabin crew at the end of the day regardless of base or contract maybe its time to take your head out of the sand.

[keeperboy]

SFG I think that BASSA/BALPA are hoping that the mere threat of a strike will help things along a little. Whether this tactic will work or not, remains to be seen.

The idea behind firing a 'single bullet' in terms of combining the pensions issue, EG300 and pay in one ballot is because it's pretty much guaranteed that EVERYONE in BA will have ONE of those issues that they feel passionately about.

For example, if BASSA put a ballot up just for EG300, or JUST for pay, these issues only affect a certain proportion of crew so a ballot would unlikely be successful. But if you heap in both of them issues, and add in the pensions issue as well, whether you are a senior CSD with two years to go before retirement or a new starter that started last year, you have something to gain.

I admit, it is a risky proposition. If we lose, we will lose on all three issues. And to be honest, when it's gonna cost BA £500million per year to maintain the current pension if it is not reformed, perhaps a strike at say a cost to BA of £40M per day will be a more attractive option to them!

[Off Stand]

Might enjoy it?? I left BHX (although was at circusair) at the end of 2000 and my rep still remains!! LOL!!:E

Anyway, back to the topic.................

[SuperBoy]

Flybywire can you and your LHR and LGW collegues realise that there is more to BA then these two bases!!!!

I am sure that FBW and just under 15 000 other cabin crew members at the aforementioned basis are blissfully aware of how much more there is to BA

people who can never see past the M25

I might be mistaken but LGW is just over 8 miles away from the M25 (but I guess that depends on where your looking from and what your looking at :p

you are right in saying that we are sort of run as seperate companies

So I guess BA and its unions should really get involved in any and all future talks regarding T&C's for any and all other airlines, seeing as they are sort of separate companies?

Marlowe, I'm sure you have your issues with your company but this thread is supposed to promote communication between LHR and LGW so that we can stand united regarding alot of issues that are affecting US directly. If you read the first post on this thread that might have become clear to you. Apologies if this comes across as being sharp but seriously how is EG300 and the changes to ARI going to affect you? So you are sort of linked to BA, FANTASTIC!!!! shout it from the roof tops if you wish but that still isn't going to change the fact that this thread isn't:

'Let's discuss BACON, BA LHR and BA LGW'

[marlowe]

No but it should be! things that are going on in BACON could well affect you sooner than you think.

[4potflyer]

Please feel free to tell me to get lost, or words to that effect, however, can these 'meetings' be held over the telephone?

Seems like a waste of everybody's time to rearrange, cancel, reschedule, travel, for something that 2 civilised people should be able to do over the phone.

[keeperboy]

That would be great in an ideal world 4pot.

However, in the original agreement between BA & unions, union presence/representation at any meeting/interrogation is a right of the employee.

If the interview was conducted over the phone this couldn't happen. The attendance unit could add/alter/omit things said or not said over the phone in their notes (everything you say in an ARI is written down).

In the interview the union aren't actually allowed to express an opinion or fight your corner. They are there to a) witness what is said and by whom. b) Ensure the interview follows the laid down procedure. And, 3) they can ask for an adjournement to the meeting if they feel the crew member is talking themselves into a P45!

[4potflyer]

I see thanks for the details.

I guess a 3 way call would work, however it would be harder for the union rep to give 'the stare' or a swift 'kick under the table' if such was needed.

[flybywire]

No but it should be! things that are going on in BACON could well affect you sooner than you think.

Marlowe I am sad that you feel that way about my words. I specifically said "two or more companies" because I was referring not just to LHR&LGW but to other bases as well - although they are closing down most of them, look at MAN and GLA....

BAConnect are a fully owned subsidiary, and I do not want to sound rude or anything (believe me, *those* explicit and implicit discriminations that unfortunately make us at LGW very sad are far from being part of my character) and when I referred to LHR and LGW I also specifically meant new recruits needing proper advice - I am more than sure that recruiting and training at BAConnect, including contractual T&C are somewhat different from LHR and indeed LGW.
But I opened" this thread to discuss common issues to all BA employees, whether belonging to mainline, subsidiaries, or even franchisees I do not really care. The more we are the merrier.
At the end of the day as an example the club service in SH mainline is the same in GB etc and we might have the same issues we want to discuss!

So please do not react like that - I only know too well how it feels to feel the way you probably felt:ooh: (now make a smile for me, pleeeeeease!!!)

FBW

PS:Sarah....I have had an ARI and took my better half in with me who wrote down, word by word, all what the lady who wanted to offer me "support" said.....it's all crap I can assure you. She agreed with me (I would say she agreed with herself) an "improvement plan" which basically was "You cannot be sick anymore for the next 12 months. If you are, then you'll be in the :mad:" Mr FBW was beside himself and has been actively trying to shake things since then (with little success unfortunately!)
Considering that I am one of those who's never been late, always did the company favours when practically and safely possible, save their a*se in many situations including during very critical periods like 7/7 bombings etc etc, I couldn't stand the fact that they made me feel like a really bad employee for catching bugs from passengers and crew scared of EG300 alike. Not considering having to stand at the back of the 737 with doors open during refuelling "enjoying" the lovely british weather, turnaround after turnaround!! (by the way, health&safety act-1974 I think but not sure-will work for us too from now on, but only while in the UK...we'll see who is going to be in the :mad:...)
So I asked Jackie the "supporter" if she wanted to review my whole attendance history since it is an Attendance Review Interview and asked her to get my file and start reading it, but she pretended not to listen. Let's just say I sent letters to my PM, her manager and Suzanne Stass....surprise surprise still waiting for a reply :mad: but at least it's all black on white.

That day, with all my heart I said to Mr FBW: "I cannot take this anymore, either you get me preggers soon, or I will leave BA!" :E

[flybywire]

HA!!!

I have just noticed that they have changed the wording Attendance into Absence........so it's now an Absence Review Interview......

PATHETIC PATHETIC PATHETIC..........

Day after day they are showing me that they value us less and less and they also think that we are only a bunch of trolly dollies after all....most of us have one if not more degrees and we can work out their stupid mind games.....
I promise, if not that I should keep my stress levels down at present I would keep fighting like I was doing before.
They are so good at selling smoke, we say in Italy...
Now It's about time they stopped agreeing plans and changes with themselves. I hope the Unions will act as opposed to bend over for a change.

Ipsa Dixit :E

FBW

[Carnage Matey!]

most of us have one if not more degrees
Dunno what its like down at 'University Challenge' Gatwick but that certainly isn't the case at LHR. If it were then they'd have worked out that you can't keep taking far more days off sick than other UK cabin crew without expecting the management to do something about it.

[flybywire]

Dunno what its like down at 'University Challenge' Gatwick but that certainly isn't the case at LHR. If it were then they'd have worked out that you can't keep taking far more days off sick than other UK cabin crew without expecting the management to do something about it.

I think we're talking two different languages here.

I am not talking about people throwing a sickie every now and then (or more often) because they do not want to fly to that destination or because they have a long duty or just because they had too much to drink.
I am talking about how long it actually takes to heal from some bug that affects your ears for example.

This EG300 policy is affecting not only crew at university gatwick, but also their majesty the flight crew. So many of them are in the process, most of them on stage 1, many on stage 2 and I think it's only one on stage 3.
You do not need a Doctorate to realise that this policy is not to "support crew who are genuinely sick" but to save BA a few pounds, even at the cost of harassing the crew member.

On my interview that ugly lady kept bringing up an episode that had happened a year before and had been discounted, and although I kept asking her to stop reminding me of it as it hurt me, she kept going on, making mr FBW really angry and making a fool fo herself as well. What had happened in the past had to be left in the past, we had already dicussed that and it was discounted. Full stop.

By the way, if you call in sick because you've had vomiting/diarrohea BA will discount the first 48 hours as FCO vol 2a says that for health and safety reasons you cannot fly after dealing with this stuff. Great news for people who have a bit too much to drink on saturday night then!
And the same thing should apply when pax hand you a bag full of sick or a dirty nappy then........

They want to play hard....we'll play their same game, exploiting those same rules that they have stupidly made for themselves.

[Flying_Sarah747]

One more question, is it that you go sick twice in 6 months, or sick twice in 3 months? I'm totally confused about this whole thing, cause I've just been rostered an ATI and I don't think I should have one because I was sick for 2 weeks in February with gastroenteritis (vomiting/diarrohea), which I picked up in Dar Es Saalam, which I provided a doctors certificate for, then I had to go sick for a day at the end of June. Now I thought if you had vomiting and diarrohea then that didn't count towards a sick day, so why have they pulled me in for this meeting??? Should I try calling the attendence support team and tell them?

[OzzieO]

Sarah my understanding is only 2 days are discounted when you have diarrohea under EG300.

[Boy In Blue]

I don't work in the industry. However, I did go out with a couple of Ba Girls. Both great girls, both LH. One at LGW and the other at LHR. Reading this thread has made me wonder whether their outlook was shaped by their base. Don't get me wrong, I know there is far more to Crew than just the job. I know you are all individuals. However, just for a bit of fun see if you can tell who worked where. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent!

Emily

1. Always concerned about her appearance.
2. Socialised down route if she knew people.
3. Tried to save allowances when on a trip.
4. Appeared a bit lonely.
5. Had sore feet.
6. Considered cosmetic surgery for boobs.
7. Been with the company a long time. Fed up and wants out but needs the money.
8. Trimmed beaver.
9. Razor sharp wit. 100% switched on cookie.
10. Drink - G&T.

Sophie

1. Not too concerned with appearance when off duty.
2. Generally socialised down route.
3. Used company card frequently on trips.
4. Had quite a few good friends.
5. had sore feet.
6. Did not consider cosmetic surgery.
7. Been with the company a long time. lost some enthusiasm but not all.
8. Shaved beaver.
9. Good with a quick reply sometimes.
10. Drink - Vodka and tonic.

Please don't be offended guys. Just a bit of fun prompted by the thread. I went out with these girls because they were cracking fun and great people not because they were Hosties. You all do a difficult, hard job and I appreciate that. keep smiling even if the quality of SLF, like me, is in decline. Lots of people are jealous of you. Happy Flying.

[angels]

Forgive me for butting in, but as SLF I can't believe what you are all being subjected to.

If you're sick, you're sick. I don't patrticularly want ill CC serving me when you should be at home in bed recuperating. I don't know how the union works with you, but this really strikes me (sic) as being something that the union should go into bat for you.

Just my 2d-worth as an outsider.

[Flying_Sarah747]

Oooh, well that'd be why then! That's crazy, cause they make you wait 2 days AFTER your vomiting and diarrhoea has subsided before you go back to work! It doesn't make sense! Oh well, looks like I'm in stage one of the 'process' then. :=

[flybywire]

Sarah my understanding is only 2 days are discounted when you have diarrohea under EG300.

Correct. That is the two days after your last episode of vomiting/diarrohea. If you are ill for 6 days then you feel fine you must take another 2 days to comply with FCO. You must be clear of symptoms for 48hrs before you can fly again.

So it is actually easier and less problematic for someone to throw in a sickie for 48 hours claiming to have had gastro-intestinal problems than for someone to be genuinely ill.

I wish I knew who is the idiot who got a huge bonus for coming up with such a ridiculous idea fo the EG300. While it can work for people on the ground, they have to realise that it simply cannot work for people in the air!!

Thick thick thick thick :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[yellowdog]

All,

Just to let you know, they didn't disallow any of my episodes of sickness and diahorrea. So therefore my two episodes put me in stage one. Oh goodie. I was told they would only discount with a doctors cert, and as I was off for only three days at a time I didn't have one. Next time however I will go to the docs and they will probably sign me off for longer. They just want to shoot themselves in the foot.

I am also away from work at the moment with an injury sustained at work, so guess who's going into stage two:O

The whole process is silly and it obviously isn't having the desired affect as sickness in most fleets is still as high as ever. Everything is put down to care and concern but we all know the real reason:hmm:

Just let them try and dismiss for sickness though:mad: Court of Human Rights springs to mind:ugh:

Please do not let the fear of going sick stop any of you from going sick when you are. The FCO states that you must only fly if you are fit to do so. Signing in when you are not is contravening the FCO's. Please do not do it, isn't fair on you, your colleagues or the passengers.

YD

[flybywire]

Oh poor you YD!!
What happened!!! :(

A medical certificate doesn't mean anything to them, if they do not want to discount the period they won't. I had a medical certificate to open and close my sickness period and they still didn't discount it (I was absent for about 14 days in a single episode due to a problem with my ears which I thought was going to make me deaf....I was crying at night in my sleep due to the excruciating pain).

As for diarrohea/vomiting they only discount the 48hrs you need after your last episode, that is if I have a flight today, go home and am sick once because tonight I have had too much to drink, tomorrow and the day after I cannot go to work to comply with FCO, so I must be off sick (although I feel fine) for 48hrs. The company will discount that episode.
However, if for the same reason I am sick for 3 days the company and those idiots who have decided to work in this field (some of them really believe it would work with flying staff) would discount only the last 48hrs and the first day would still count towards EG300. So if you're sick again in the next 3 months you're basically :mad:

[jetset lady]

Another thing...What actually happens in these ARI's??? I've not had the pleasure of having one!What happens if it is conducted in your absense? Is that a bad thing? Surely the same outcome will be achieved whether you're there or not, that being you're put into phase one of the 'process' (Please do excuse my ignorance on these subjects, I've not really taken much notice until now)


If it's anything like mine was, you'll find out about it accidently on your days off when you check your roster on the off chance your upcoming standby's have been changed. You'll then arrive to be handed a letter that "was" going to be sent to your home address telling you that you can have someone to accompany you. At that point, you'll be asked if you'd like to reschedule the appointment to arrange someone to be with you, probably in the hope that now you're there, you'll just want to get on with it on your own. Then just to add insult to injury, they will be most surprised to learn that one of your sickness's involved you being taken off the aircraft down route despite the fact that all the incident reports were done and the aircraft went out with 3 crew and came back with 2 (another sore subject!), so will discount this sickness making the whole thing a waste of time! Surely that should have already been on record. After all, they seem to manage to pick up when you've gone over your crew card limit quickly enough!

[SuperBoy]

I'm just wondering, they're offering over time down at gatwick for yesterday and today, I'm on standby and I know quite a few othersare too, yet those on standby are not being used? :bored:

Also virtually the entire base is barely working yet they offer WW temps to do long haul only from lgw for the next few months. Now I know there are various factors to take into consideration but it seems to me like they are just wasting more money.:bored: For a company that is hell bent on cutting back and saving money etc. etc. it just doesn't really add up.

Is there anyone that could clarify this, or have any ideas on whats really going on at the moment please pm me.

[Flying_Sarah747]

Well this is totally ridiculous then! How could I be expected to go into work when I was vomiting at 30 minute intervals, couldn't even move cause of the nausea. I honestly thought I'd picked up Maleria from Dar Es Salaam it was that bad. They can't possibly expect ANYONE to go into work like that, so how can they put you in a process for being that sick? Makes no sense at all! I hope they note that I had to loose a BKK/SYD over it also so obviously I wasn't making it up! This process certainly needs some fine tuning!

[AHA2218]

For a company that is hell bent on cutting back and saving money etc..

If you only knew what really goes on in the engineering department :eek:

Charter an aircraft from Bae Systems Weybridge to EDI as an RJ went tech around 23:00 and was required for the flying programme the next day.

At the cost of £7,600, would it not have been better to take a Tech Delay and fly the spares up from LGW on the next available BA Mainline flight? Don't think an RJ100 would make that much profit on 2 sectors????

[HZ123]

Come and join us on the ground there are still high levels of sickness usually the same old faces and nothing ever happens to them or to anyone else come to that. i very much doubt that on the ground level of sickness has decreased. I understand that the Compass has up to 400-600 blow out every day the higher figure at weekends and jubilee up to 100 daily. Does that sound correct, put it this way these are told to us by the logistics team.

[flybywire]

Come and join us on the ground there are still high levels of sickness usually the same old faces and nothing ever happens to them or to anyone else come to that. i very much doubt that on the ground level of sickness has decreased. I understand that the Compass has up to 400-600 blow out every day the higher figure at weekends and jubilee up to 100 daily. Does that sound correct, put it this way these are told to us by the logistics team.

I now personally know 2 pilots who are in the 3rd stage of EG300....if only I could replicate here what the interview was like and what they got told by their management, we would all have a big laugh.

"Take care of yourself, take some vitamins" hahahahaha!! How pathetic and patronising, :yuk: I heard that before.
If I catch a virus or a bacterial infection I am sick, whether I take vitamins or not. (btw some doctors say that vitamins are bad if you have a bacterial infection, as some bacteria use them as food to get stronger and more agressive)
Maybe BA's next step is to take blood tests of anybody who works for the company to see their level of antibodies and sack those who have an inferior number!?!?! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[geordi]

PS:Sarah....I have had an ARI and took my better half in with me who wrote down, word by word, all what the lady who wanted to offer me "support" said.....it's all crap I can assure you. She agreed with me (I would say she agreed with herself) an "improvement plan" which basically was "You cannot be sick anymore for the next 12 months. If you are, then you'll be in the :mad:" Mr FBW was beside himself and has been actively trying to shake things since then (with little success unfortunately!)...

So I asked Jackie the "supporter" if she wanted to review my whole attendance history since it is an Attendance Review Interview and asked her to get my file and start reading it, but she pretended not to listen. Let's just say I sent letters to my PM, her manager and Suzanne Stass....surprise surprise still waiting for a reply :mad: but at least it's all black on white.

That day, with all my heart I said to Mr FBW: "I cannot take this anymore, either you get me preggers soon, or I will leave BA!" :E

The UK has a very nice group of people called the Health and Safety Executive.... their rules and legislation is pretty firm....

I suggest that someone gives them a tingle, eg in your specific case - demonstrate that you had a validated sick leave, were sick and attending to work during this period would have put you and pax and other crew at risk.... that BA is discriminating against you based on this "disability" and in the meetings above is adversely affect the H&S of yourself and other crew.... that the cabin is your workplace, etc...

I am actually surprised that the inflight safety dept hasn't discussed this with the leave team.... i am a safety manager, and had similar discussions when our leave teams tried to pull something similar!

We now conduct safety investigations where possible, and under just culture, if the reason for the injury/incident was inadvertent then leave team is told to back off.... likewise for sicknesses, we tell the leave team to conduct investigations not just go on raw numbers.... we also spot review to ensure they're not harrassing crew...

suggest put a rocket up the safety team's backside - they're supposed to help company AND crew!
But first hand part of problem is some crew abuse company provisions and call in sick regularly.... we all need to work together to solve this,

ALSO ALSO ALSO - UK HSE need to be involved because you have firm provisions for consultation where changes affect the health and safety of crew - this falls into that provisions... also applies in Australia btw...

suggest call or write to the HSE and lodge formal complaint anti-discrimination people...

[eagle21]

http://www.heathrowtv.com/baclub.html

Your views...

[sinala1]

Hmmm its nice, but personally I still think the Virgin Atlantic Upper Class Suite is much better - I still cant get my head around the fwd facing/rear facing seating plan

[SuperBoy]

Hmmm its nice, but personally I still think the Virgin Atlantic Upper Class Suite is much better - I still cant get my head around the fwd facing/rear facing seating plan

Fwd/Rear facing seat configuration is copyright by BA and lets BA fit in an extra percentile of seats into the club cabin. Virgin and I am sure all other airlines want to be able to fit there cabins like this due to the extra $$$, but they can't. The club cabin accounts for 87% of BAs profits thus you could deduce from that there are alot of people who prefer it. With the new seats I am sure this will increase. Would you not prefer to have your own 'private space'?

I might be biased but the club cabin is lovely to work/travel in and I for one can not wait for the entire fleet to be fitted with the new club seats.:ok:

[tofster]

Was sent this email yesterday. I am no authority on this but it made interesting reading.

>Please read and pass onto all crew.
> >>
> >>All taken from the bassa website.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>just in from spending time in the BASSA stable. What I´m about to
> >>post is from the horses mouth......
> >>
> >>1) As of Feb 1st the upperdeck Psr is gone. The ultimate goal is
> >>have a 2 more gone by the end of 2007 leaving 1 CSD & 1 Psr on
> >>longhaul aircraft. The CSD role is also being looked at. Do we need
> >>one??
> >>
> >>2) CC89 reps are totally behind the BASSA action they are being
> >>held back by AMICUS who insist they must go to the enth degree to
> >>find a solution.
> >>
> >>3) SFG been told BA can no longer afford downtown hotels. Airport
> >>hotels are being sort.
> >>
> >>4) BALPA are not supporting us on our T&C´s issues. Pensions are
> >>our common denominator.
> >>
> >>5) Car stickers and other items will available shortly at BASSA´s
> >>expense. (Thank you Chief Wigwam for the idea).
> >>
> >>6) No big figures for severance. Statutory Minimum.
> >>
> >>7) T5 report time 1hr 10 before dept. Arrival 30mins.
> >>This will take SFO, LAX & NRT (new routing) out of LR and make them
> >>night stops.
> >>
> >>Quote from Mark Hassel: "Unions are history. Those were the old
> >>days. Negotiation is good but if you don´t agree will walk right
> >>through you. This will happen before our move to T5"
> >>
> >>I don´t know about you but that quote has got my blood boiling, let
> >>alone the issues we´re going to be balloted on.
> >>
> >>As a union we need 80% (office figure not mine) return to stop the
> >>BA train from steamrolling our T&C´S. It´s already started!!!
> >>
> >>If there´s still anyone out there who thinks it won´t affect them.
> >>Think on, Heathrow One Fleet is around the corner. VOTE YES for
> >>industrial action and protect our futures.
> >>
> >> This thread is for those people who have been asked to visit
> >>the BASSA website by colleagues so as to find out about the
> >>upcoming strike.
> >>
> >>Whilst I am by no means an authority on whats happening, this is
> >>what I understand about the current situation.
> >>
> >>1. HOW HAS IT COME TO THIS??
> >>
> >>BA and BASSA meet regularly, BA tell BASSA its proposals and plans.
> >>Normally what happens is they both negotiate, BA say what they want
> >>us to do and BASSA act on our behalf and agreements are made. One
> >>of the most recent examples of this is the Standby block, the
> >>starting hours, the hotel accomodation the night before an 0700
> >>start blah blah blah. Previous examples of this include Box
> >>Payments, MBT's, Back to Backs etc. These are things that BASSA
> >>have negotiated on our behlaf.
> >>
> >>The last time BA and BASSA met, BA outlined plans of what they
> >>wanted to do next, preparing us for T5. After this meeting BASSA
> >>had one of the quarterly meetings with its members and took a vote.
> >>The vote was if BA try and impose such and such, are we prepared to
> >>vote for industrial action?? There was a unanmous YES. So, BA and
> >>BASSA met again and tried to iron out the problems. BA would not
> >>budge and, acting in our interests BASSA did the same. Talks broke
> >>down and now we are being sent the voting slip to support
> >>industrial action.
> >>
> >>2. WHAT BA WANT US TO DO
> >>
> >>Reading this forum you can get some idea of what BA are asking for,
> >>some of it is speculation we will find out EXACTLY what it is in
> >>due course. Remember this, there will always be a bigger picture
> >>behind what they are seeking to do now. There will be more and more
> >>until they have got us eventually on
> >>
> >>1. Hourly/Daily rate to replace allowances, boxes and overtime,
> >>CAT, long day
> >>2. Lower standard hotels
> >>3. 3 crew on Airbus ( same level as current 737 at LGW )
> >>4. 1 CSD, 1 Purser on longhaul
> >>5. LA/San Francisco nightstops
> >>6. 5 sector days
> >>7. Removal of MBT's replaced with OFF days not fixed
> >>8. Single Fleet Heathrow
> >>
> >>
> >>These are things that our competetors do right now, Virgin,
> >>Monarch, easyJet. They all work to something called SCHEME. This is
> >>a set of rules governed by the CAA, some of you may be familiar
> >>with this already. FORTUNATELY due to BASSA and some serious
> >>negatiating, our agreements are different and we dont work to
> >>SCHEME, we have our Worldwide Agreement and a Eurofleet agreement.
> >>Do you ever wonder why crew who have worked at Virgin, easyJet, My
> >>Travel and every other airline in the UK all want to come to work
> >>for BA???Generally its because our conditions are better than those
> >>in place at those airlines.
> >>
> >>3 WHAT VOTING FOR A STRIKE MEANS
> >>
> >>Voting for a strike could be the very thing that stops a strike
> >>happening. Once BASSA announce the results of the vote, they inform
> >>BA. If the vote is a resounding YES, then BA may return to the
> >>table to negotiate further and reach an agreement. It sends a very
> >>clear message to the management at BA that we are not happy with
> >>what they are doing now, breaking agreements such as the EG300,
> >>taking away the breakfast allowance at LGW, the 900 hours carry on
> >>and all the rest of it. It also and more importantly tells BA that
> >>we are not just going to lay down and accept the things that they
> >>want us to do. It means that we want to keep what we have already
> >>got, with regards to pay, time off, crewing levels etc.
> >>
> >>The most important thing that voting for a strike means is that we
> >>are saying to BA, you have to go through BASSA first if you want to
> >>change anything. The reps act on our behalf, BA can negotiate with
> >>each one of us individually so they go through BASSA. If we dont
> >>support BASSA we are saying to BA, its OK, do what you like, change
> >>this, change that we will accept it, its fine, BASSA doesnt mean
> >>anything to us, forget about them, just do it.
> >>
> >>BA are not exactly skint, they are paying millions in bonuses left
> >>right and centre to managers who achieve cost savings. That means,
> >>by taking money off of us and making us work more, a manager at
> >>Waterside gets a huge bonus. Does that sound fair to you??? BASSA
> >>have agreed to many many things over the years to help BA out of
> >>the mierda, crew off a jumbo after September 11th, 3 licenses on
> >>longhaul without blinking, back to backs. We have always played
> >>fair with BA and helped out where we could because we all care
> >>about our jobs. Now theres no sign of any major problems at BA and
> >>they want to take everything away from us that made us want to work
> >>for BA in the first place.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>As I said earlier, this post is for those who want more information
> >>about why we are being asked to support a strike. I repeat, I am
> >>NOT an authority on whats going on and I have not been privy to
> >>things that BA have discussed at meetings with BASSA, I have been
> >>around just about long enough to see the way BA operate. Everyone
> >>can read about what BA management have said about us over the years
> >>including "monkeys can do that job" "We want a confrontation with
> >>cabin crew" "loyalty is not valued" the list is endless.
> >>
> >>If you are alarmed at this or you had no idea things were this bad
> >>between BA and BASSA, ask your colleagues on your next trip, if you
> >>enjoy what your job offers right now and want to keep it, you now
> >>have the chance to say to BA, I want to keep things the way they
> >>are now. Tell your friends about this, they may know something that
> >>you dont.
> >>
> >>I am so greatful to those cabin crew who were at BA before me,
> >>because of them I enjoy the things my job brings me now. Anyone who
> >>started in 97 or afterwards, we had to go through all of this
> >>before you started, we fought and did our best. We arent going to
> >>be around in years to come and now its your turn to make sure this
> >>union works. When the old timers have all gone, hopefully you will
> >>be heading the ship of BASSA, you will no doubt have your own
> >>battles with BA so remember this experience, it could be you
> >>writing the same post as I am in 8-10 years time.
> >>
> >>Going on strike one of the worst things you have to do in a job but
> >>hopefully by voting for one we can avert it. If it all turns to
> >>caca and we do have to do it, just remember why you are doing it

[keeperboy]

Just got bac from a B747 trip, 16 cabin crew.

15 BASSA, 1 in CC89.

16 out of 16 said they would ballot to strike. :D

[Glamgirl]

Hi there folks. In danger of causing upset, can I just say that all the LHR crew who are talking about striking about new conditions, what happened to you guys supporting us little 'uns at LGW? We've had worse pay conditions, work conditions etc than you for years, we now work 3 crew on most 737's, we're doing mixed flying (looking like we'll lose our breakfast allowance) etc etc (I won't go on as you probably know most of it anyway). We just get on with it though... I'm not saying change is necessarily good, but how about finding out more details before talking about strike action? If another strike happens, we might all be out of a job, and that's what I and lots of others worry about. I'm not saying that all the new conditions rumoured are right or just, but please make sure the unions talk it through properly first. We're all colleagues at the end of the day and I hope we can all support each other on issues within the company.

Hope I haven't offended anyone, that wasn't my intentions (I'm just worried about job stability etc). Sending happy thoughts and happy vibes.

[keeperboy]

Hey Glamgirl.

I'm no expert on the LGW situation, but one thing I know for sure is that we had no union ballot at LHR about it. I know there was one for both Eurofleet LGW and LGW Worldwide though, the result of which came back supporting the proposal for the formation of Single Fleet LGW.

What I don't understand, is why the overwhelming majority of LGW crew voted for the new proposal without the fine print being written.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is outrageous how you guys are being treated down there. But surely there should have been a campaign to 'Vote No' in the ballot on LGW SF, or at least to ensure the fine print had been written before that 'Yes' box was ticked.

[flybywire]

Single fleet LHR? I do not think so! This question was asked at the latest forum a couple of weeks ago and the answer was a clear no. So do not worry!

5 sector days? 5 manchester sectors maybe. Some airlines do 6 sector days.
Not that I would like that to happen or that I would agree to it. In fact I would tell the :mad: useless unions what I think about them once for all if that were the case.

[SuperBoy]

What I don't understand, is why the overwhelming majority of LGW crew voted for the new proposal without the fine print being written.

Quite easily answered.

1. LGW WW wanted an easy way into LHR WW
2. LGW EF have been gagging for long haul and jumped at the first chance, signed the first piece of paper that came along, even though the conditions are ABSOLUTELY appalling compare to that of LHR.

[keeperboy]

Thats not quite right superboy.

LGW WW and LGW EOG voted in DIFFERENT ballots.

LGW EOG to accept Single Fleet LGW.

And LGW WW to accept the transfer options offered.

LGW WW had no 'yes' or 'no' vote in accepting single fleet.

[Off Stand]

LGW WW wanted an easy route to LHR WW, did they?? I think that most of those WW that are still based at LGW are there because they want to be. I had the opportunity to transfer to 'big school' in Aug 2005, but I was and am happy at LGW. I will be based at LHR in Feb, only because there will be no more routes at LGW for us WW crew to operate.

Keeperboy's last post is completely correct in that who was balloted about what.

[SuperBoy]

I think that most of those WW that are still based at LGW are there because they want to be. I had the opportunity to transfer to 'big school' in Aug 2005, but I was and am happy at LGW. I will be based at LHR in Feb, only because there will be no more routes at LGW for us WW crew to operate.

Fare enough.

I stand to be corrected but last I heard only 3 out of the entire lgw ww base opted to transfer to sf gatwick. You yourself is happy at lgw but have also opted to go to lhr.

I know there was one for both Eurofleet LGW and LGW Worldwide though, the result of which came back supporting the proposal for the formation of Single Fleet LGW.

Yes lgw ww had different options but they still nomiated to "go up the road" and EOG still grabbed the first chance to get some LH no matter how bad the conditions.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is outrageous how you guys are being treated down there. But surely there should have been a campaign to 'Vote No' in the ballot on LGW SF, or at least to ensure the fine print had been written before that 'Yes' box was ticked.

Don't get me wrong I'm not anti LGW I'm actually pro LGW. However the t's & c's are horendous. Ie. LGW is profitable, LGW saved money etc. etc. but Hotels are being changed to airport hotels. GVA Hotel is at the end of the runway and you might as well be lying on the tarmac trying to get some sleep. However LGW Flight crew, LHR CC and LHR Flight crew get coached into town to a nice little hotel. Why am I and all at lgw not good enough to be in the same hotel as everyone else?

Don't even get me started on the money side of things, one of the dom's tried to tell me that I'm earning the same as someone at LHR.

Please don't turn this into a mud slinging match. Everybody is fully aware of what they signed up for and where they stand with the company. I'm pinning my hopes on the fact that we'll apparently start earning more as of FEB. Here's hoping.

[Glamgirl]

I think I've been a bit misunderstood... I think single fleet in theory is a good thing for us at LGW, it's the breakfast situation that bugs me about that one.

The point I was trying to make, is that no matter what the company hits us with at LGW, we don't get the back-up we need from the union (you'd have thought bassa/cc89 at either base is the same, but no...), nor have we had any support from our colleagues at LHR. Basically what I'm saying, is that if LHR crew are looking for strike support from "little brother" about your recent issues (rumours or otherwise), then a lot of us are thinking why should we? We've been trying to join NSP for years now (as after all we all work for same company doing the same job), but the union reps at LHR have been putting spanners in the works constantly. Also, we've had no support for all the changes we've gone through in the last few years (3 crew, fewer nightstops, etc etc). I'm not saying that all crew at LHR are like this though, I have plenty of friends up there, most crew at LHR are absolutely lovely and I could've gone up there 5 years ago, but turned it down as I like LGW (believe it or not). It's just the different conditions and pay that irks me, really. Sorry if I've upset anyone.

[Off Stand]

I opted for LHR eventually as a) I live in Birmingham, not exactly handy for short haul and b) I am happy with the agreements I have with my contract. If the single fleet hadn't have happened, a lot of us going to LHR would happily stay where we are.

Don't get me wrong, I know you guys are getting a raw deal at the moment and I totally support you in any fight to get your agreements improved.

[lgw30]

[quote=SuperBoy;3001662]Fare enough.
Don't get me wrong I'm not anti LGW I'm actually pro LGW. However the t's & c's are horendous. Ie. LGW is profitable, LGW saved money etc. etc. but Hotels are being changed to airport hotels. GVA Hotel is at the end of the runway and you might as well be lying on the tarmac trying to get some sleep. However LGW Flight crew, LHR CC and LHR Flight crew get coached into town to a nice little hotel. Why am I and all at lgw not good enough to be in the same hotel as everyone else?

quote]
i spoke to cc89 rep today and asked about us changing to airport hotels he said this was rubbish. they are looking at a new hotel in tampa as there have been a lot of complaints about it. the gva hotel is temp move while the hilton is being done up the move was so quick they could not get us all rooms in the same hotel so they split us up they are looking for another one somewhere else for a few moths

[yellowdog]

Guys

This has all been covered before on the BA LGW thread.

Superboy,

as someone who joined the Company just a little while ago from BMED you must have known all about the t&c's before you started? So why is it such a surprise that we are treated so differently. Would you have held out for other t&c's and risked losing everything. Do you really think the Company were going to offer us the same as WW LHR? They needed to save £13m so that was never going to happen.

I know the unions at LGW do their very best for us all. Yes they appear to give in a bit more easily but trust me they don't. As someone who has seen plenty of discussions from both sides of the coin, the Company have us over a barrel and they know it.

Put yourself in the shoes of a LGWWW crew member what would you have done when faced with this dilemma - do I take a 40/50% pay cut and stay where I really love to be or do I keep my money and work somewhere where I choosen not to in the past? WWLGW didn't want an easy way into WWLHR they already had it. It was just a case of waiting for those who had joined recently, however for most they already had the opportunity to go but choose not to.

Please see my note about the GVA hotel on the other thread. Did you do a report about how noisy the hotel was?

"2. LGW EF have been gagging for long haul and jumped at the first chance, signed the first piece of paper that came along, even though the conditions are ABSOLUTELY appalling compare to that of LHR."

That statement just gets right on my breasts:mad: Try having been in the company for 9 years putting up with all the cr@p. Then someone who's been in the Company since May comes along and makes a stupid comment like that. I just hope I don't find I'm flying with you soon.

Rant over!!

Glamgirl,

Unfortunatey it has always been the same with the WW LHR unions. They see us as a base that doesn't really matter. It's only when the changes that we have had to put up with start happening to them that they start getting on the high horses. How dare the Company do this to us! Oh it already happens at LGW, really?:mad:

Yes the single fleet at LGW is great for us and I do feel genuinely sorry for the new recruits that have been sat around on loads of days off and STBY's earning no money. All I can say is, it has to change once all the routes come over in February. Don't forget that we only have had until recently four of the nine routes.

Let's wait and see what happens with b&b, after all it is in our MOA.

YD

[SuperBoy]

That statement just gets right on my breasts:mad: Try having been in the company for 9 years putting up with all the cr@p. Then someone who's been in the Company since May comes along and makes a stupid comment like that. I just hope I don't find I'm flying with you soon.YD

I'm sorry you feel that way. How many drafts were set up for sf before it was accepted?

However whether you have been with the company for 9 years or 9 months doesn't change the fact that the t & c's aren't even a third of LHRs. I never expected the same t & c's as LHR but I did expect to be able to live. Add to that the fact that I was blatantly lied to by the recruiters up at the rivers with regards to how much money can be expected (no I'm not alone in this as I have asked alot of people who have joined in the past year and the same recurring amounts come up)

I like working for BA, the people are fantastic and I enjoy it tremendously but If you saw my pay slips you would understand why I am not as happy as I and so many others could be. I'm not asking for very much but hey I've only been at BA for a few seconds so I guess I'm not entitled to anything. :ouch:

[yellowdog]

Superboy,

Perhaps I was a bit strong and I apologise. However to say that LHRWW earn three times as much is pushing a bit far.

Before the massive recruitment to cover the new SF maincrew were earning about 1200-1400 on average a month. You have to understand that at the moment the wages are not normal (as I said further down my post).

Don't know who you have been speaking to but maincrew at LHR do not earn 3600 per month.

Speaking to some of the temp WW people on my flight the other day, they came up with the figure of around 1800-2200 on an exceptional month. Working things out in my head I would expect maincrew to earn between 1300-1600 once and I repeat once all the routes come over. You must be able to live on that.

"like working for BA, the people are fantastic and I enjoy it tremendously but If you saw my pay slips you would understand why I am not as happy as I and so many others could be. I'm not asking for very much but hey I've only been at BA for a few seconds so I guess I'm not entitled to anything."

So what are you asking for? If it is continual long haul then you have to understand two things;
1. All the new people have to be kept current on the B777 so trips will be limited.
2. Being a base that has preferential bidding, newer people will never acheive a 100% hit rate on their bids.

I know that is not what you want to hear but it is the unfortunate truth.

BTW, did you report the GVA hotel?

YD

[keeperboy]

Fare enough.


Don't get me wrong I'm not anti LGW I'm actually pro LGW. However the t's & c's are horendous. Ie. LGW is profitable, LGW saved money etc. etc. but Hotels are being changed to airport hotels. GVA Hotel is at the end of the runway and you might as well be lying on the tarmac trying to get some sleep. However LGW Flight crew, LHR CC and LHR Flight crew get coached into town to a nice little hotel. Why am I and all at lgw not good enough to be in the same hotel as everyone else?

Don't even get me started on the money side of things, one of the dom's tried to tell me that I'm earning the same as someone at LHR.



Super, I totally see your point. Many of the ex-LGW EOG crew that I fly with at LHR WW say they still miss the people from LGW EOG and that although the t&c's were bad, they had a great time.

I guess the problem with LGW is that it is often seen as an 'entry point' or 'stepping stone' to either quick-ish promotion or LHR. Crew down there don't seem to hang about as long as the BA average (120 years LOL), I know there are some exceptions but most people hang about til they can get transferred out or promoted.

There always seems to be a ready supply of young, enthusiastic crew down there whom don't kick up too much of a fuss and are just happy to be flying for BA.

As nice as the ex-EOG people I fly with are, once they are out of LGW EOG they seem to be quite happy to forget the conditions at LGW and what they have left behind. Whether anyone thinks this is right or wrong I guess is down to personal opinion.

There is also the 'numbers' issue. Now as the old saying goes 'safety in numbers!'. I have no idea what the exact split is of the 14,500 odd BA cabin crew. I know that WW LHR has about 8000 ish, EF LHR 3800 ish and the rest made up of ex WW LGW, LGW SF, EF MAN, EF GLA/EDI and ICC. So, around 12000 of the total are based at LHR. It sort of stands to reason that BA management would have more success chomping away at the benefits/t&c's of the 'easy game' (small bases) before starting on the jewel in their money saving crown, LHR. Whether they will risk pi**ing off the crew at LHR and potentially seeing their cash cow shut down for a few days is yet to be seen.

We DO know that the conditions are crap at LGW super. But, without sounding brutal, the crew at LHR tend to think there are a lot more bigger (on more personal to them) issues at hand than defending the t&c's LGW.

Unfair, YES. But at the end of the day, the general concensus is that those at LGW a) signed up for the deal, and, b) only need to 'serve their time' before transferring out anyway.

It is VITALLY important that you, your colleagues and Pursers stand up and be counted. Most of us in this profession are recruited as we are 'caring' and even with unrealistic crew compliments we still rush like mad to serve that last row.

DON'T DO IT

If 3 crew on a 737 or 10 crew on a LGW 777 aren't enough then don't break your back to serve everyone. If you miss out the last three rows because you are on a full 737 with 3 crew TOUGH. Apologise to all the un-served passengers, explain that there are only 3 of you to serve 140-odd of them, give them a comments card each and encourage them all to send it back in with their thoughts. Likewise with passengers on the 777 that aren't happy. BA will have to do something to stop the tide of complaints. If no-one is complaining and the job is getting done, managers will think it works just fine! Likewise for crap hotels. Get all the crew to fill out a report about the unsatisfactory noise/standard. And if any of your Cabin Managers think they are CSD's and can stroll around a 777 all flight leaving 9 working crew, again, stand up and be counted. Tell them otherwise!

I think the LGW SF situation is really an issue that can be sorted out by you guys down there standing together and having the conviction to stand up and be counted.

[Off Stand]

If I remember correctly, BA/your union need 7-10 reports in one week in order to look into any problems with hotels. So, the more of you do it, the more chance of something being sorted out.

[SuperBoy]

However to say that LHRWW earn three times as much is pushing a bit far.

I did a IAH last week and saw 2 WW Temps pay slips and it really was nearly 3 times what I earn currently at lgw. I know the circumstances are not normal at LGW thus I'm waiting for feb as are we all.

1300-1600 once and I repeat once all the routes come over. You must be able to live on that.

I don't want to go into too much detail wrt current wages but like I said I'm not asking for much.

So what are you asking for? If it is continual long haul then you have to understand two things;

I'm actually bidding for sh trips and am getting myself on the airbus.

I know that is not what you want to hear but it is the unfortunate truth.

Like I said I'm aware of all of this. I probably have not expressed myself clearly. I am pro LGW it's just hard to see the silver lining at the moment.

BTW, did you report the GVA hotel?
It was put on the flight report. I would've liked to email someone wrt to the hotel and get a response but no one I spoke to seem to be very accommodating with a contact person.

The same goes for the new hotel in IAH.

[superairhostess]

Go Superboy!

I'm with you all the way!:D

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Well well. What an exciting turn this thread has taken!

I would like to get behind everything YD has said firstly about this issue (not the personal stuff about others).

I would like to add however that superboy is very good at his job and is not the type to voice his discontent and bring others down or let it affect his proffesionalism on board or attitude to customers (well done SB).

My own personal feelings on these issues are this.... (if anyone's interested)

I voted YES for SFLGW because it was indeed a way forward for EFLGW which was in fairness a fleet that could not go down in morale any further. and of course I wanted an opportunity to do something different and the chance to go up the ladder and earn more money.

I put my faith in the unions that they would do their best and then live with the consequences.

Well... I for one was not totally happy with the package put together for SFLGW. Mostly the CM package (which more work than CSD and less money), and of course now we have all the wrangling with breakfast and the tipping etc etc.

I am of course a realist and knew that a crew member would be taken off and we'd lose a PSR maybe. But hey BA would probably get their way or the union would come to a compromise.

I still think we need a extra PSR of the 4 class, and I guess we'll see if that happens.

What really gets me now is this......(deep breath)

While all this SF negotiation was going on I never once saw a message from either union (particularly for LHR) saying how outrageous the SF proposal was and how everyone was going to go on strike then if it was passed and CSD was done away with and we lost a PSR etc etc etc.

Now....I'm no brain of Britain, or fortune teller. BUT ANY IDIOT COULD SEE THAT IF SFLGW WAS ALLOWED TO GO AHEAD AND OPPERATE 777 UNDER THE T&C'S WE DO NOW, THAT IT WOULD ONLY BE A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE THEY TRY TO DO IT AT LHR!

I'm a little supprised they've attempted it this soon, but hey...it shows they mean business.

I'm also very sceptical of the fact that the fact that ONLY WHEN THE CSD RANK IS THREATENED AT LHR IS IT NOW AN ISSUE.

Again...any idiot could see that if you let it get dissolved at LGW then it will eventually happen at LHR. The rot will have already set in!!!:ugh:

Retreating within fortress LHR is not going to save you as the management and accountants are living in there with you!!!!:eek:

SO.. now when the reps at LHR (all CSD's pretty much I think) realise that theri jobs are now up for grabs by the company the toys are out of the pram and STRIKE STRIKE is the call (and we're all supposed to join in).

I realise their are lots of other issues tagged onto this ballot as well, many just and with foundation.

However don't bleat on about losing the CSD rank or making it a working position or "just look at your SCM colleagues at LGW".

THEY LET IT HAPPEN. EFLGW could have been absorbed into the NSP years ago and none of this rubbish would be happening now...but no. The LHR unions didn't want it, so it didn't happen.

Now look what's happened. All that eliteism and xenophobia that was directed at EOG/EFLGW is now coming back to bite them in the arse. And it could have all been prevented.

Do I sound bitter? Good! I am when it comes to this subject. All this talk of we all have to rally to the war cry of STRIKE STRIKE and be one team/unit/community.

WE'RE NOT ONE COMMUNITY! There's LHR/ and what's left of WWLGW, and then there's everyone else.

By selling EOG/EFLGW/SFLGW down the river all these years and not allowing us into your precious NSP and allowing our T&C's to be dilluted down again and again, you've ended up selling your own down the river by giving the company a template (SFLGW) to bash you over the head with now at every negotiation by saying "Well they do it this way at LGW. We want to do it here at LHR. And why not? If they can do it, why can't you?"

If we'd all been one community we wouldn't be where we are now.

Make's my blood boil!:mad:

[traveller5]

It's a difficult call this one. Any workforce will fight to keep the most favourable conditions, but unfortunately for BA WW crews, the tide is totally against them. The airline industry is nowadays based on the low cost model (no just in the sense of no frills on board!) and BA WW crews are the only UK aircrews working under very dated and inflexible terms and conditions. The market forces demand that airlines have minimal costs in order to survive such a competitive field, and what was right for crews in 1993 is no longer true. Other airlines have proved that you do NOT need 4 pursers on a 747 and a "CSD", for example! The CSD role.....no comment.

Why have WW crews allowed the rest of the BA operation (regions, LGW, overseas ground staff) to take huge cuts, while they sat back and counted their pennies? Now they are under threat, they expect everyone to come running to the rescue - guess what, people won't.

Harsh words? Possibly, but change is around the corner in one sense or another. Food for thought: in view of other regions/airports taking massive cuts, what do LHR crews propose they can do to make the operation more cost effective? Are crews actually prepared to do anything?

[keeperboy]

I do agree, we are paid very well in terms of the industry we are in. However, it isn't ALL about money for all of us. I would trade in a proportion of my take home pay for less flying and greater flexibility IN A FLASH.

I have a friend whom flies for KLM longhaul. He earns about 30% less than I do. However, he bids for every one of his trips and works so little that he has a second job. In fact, he sees going to work like going on holiday. Similar for another friend who flies for AF. They are able to be flexible with their days off, for example, by taking only a day or two off a short trip and have a bunch of greater days off together later in the month.

The reality of life at LHR WW: we can request two days off in the country a month. We can request two trips per year. All of these are REQUESTS and so are often not granted. Promotion (as current with a CSD and FOUR Pursers on a jumbo) takes around 10 years. Same for First Class training. Part-time: Whats that????

Now A LOT of this is down to our own doing. Because of the complexity of our ancient scheduling 'agreements' we have where as a certain number of days are fixed per trip etc etc etc.

Change for us at LHR WW would not necessarily be a bad thing in many respects. I cannot justify the need for a CSD and 4 Pursers on a jumbo. I totally understand the reasons WHY the union doesn't want the position removed (freeze on promotion, redundancy etc) but we still know that it is a tough one to justify.

Ditto the hourly rate. A 3 day Cairo for us based on the current 'meal allowence' system is worth about £60. A 3 day BOM or DEL isn't worth much more. Many crew are saying that it is time that the hourly rate be looked at again, as it is only a repacement for meal allowances and not box payments, overtime etc.

As for the scheduling agreements. Well, personally I would rather get rid of many of the agreements we do have and see them replaced with more flexible agreements, ones that can work both to MY advantage AND to BA's.

The sticking point though, seems to be the 'bully boy tactics. I don't just apply this to BA management (who definitely are bullys) but also to many of the BASSA reps (whom display total ignorance and arrogance at times). I AM a member of BASSA because it is absolutely necessary in BA.

I just wish that it could be a bit of give and take:

BA Manager: "we want to change X, Y and Z and we are prepared to give you this in return...."

But it never happens like that. It is just like "we want to take x, y and z and then we've got that we will come back for a, b and c......".

Now I know BASSA probably aren't the best at 'negotiating' either. I just wish they could find some common ground and a deal that would benefit the ENTIRE crew community as well as BA.

[flybywire]

Unlike many people here I voted against the first and only SFLGW proposal. I found so many loops that the company would use in its favour that I was actually boiling with anger when I put my thoughts across (supported by the proof black on white) to the then CC89 LGW reps, who could only say "well we want it and if you do not agree you should vote against it. What the company wanted in the first place was much worse, you now get one extra day off per month!" I couldn't believe my ears.

I voted against because I knew that this SFLGW move was absolutely necessary for BA as it is nowadays, they needed it, not me, and if only we had all stuck together we probably would have obtained a better deal. It's like trying to buy a rug in the middle east, just a bit more complicated, but it's the same bloody game.

Having said that, the T&Cs I was under just before last october were already much worse than when I joined, so no, I didn't sign up for them at all, they imposed them on me and us all at EFLGW, so as they've done it with us they can do it with anybody else.
LGW has set a precedent which almost none of the thousands of LHR crew/unions cared about at that time thinking they were in a fortress, now this non-caring attitude is coming back to bite you in the rear. Not that I do not feel for you, don't misunderstand me, but I know it's just the inevitable truth.

It's just a matter of time, so far all what I was foreseeing has become a sad reality for us, so I am absolutely certain that it doesn't matter what you guys do or not do, it will happen. Willie could as well be speaking in german and I wouldn't notice the difference.

I hope this will teach us all something.

FBW

[flybywire]

Keeperboy I like your attitude. Some changes might be for the better, it's up to you all to fight for them though. Be tough, give up something but do try to get something equally important for you in return.

I love my lifestyle at LGW, (although I haven't tried BA's LH ops yet) I like the fact I can bid whether to do trips or stay in the country, whether to have certain days off and I like the fact I can call anytime and get a leave day for the following day. Not once have I been told it was not available. I can change my leave around after the rosters have been published to make it suit me better and so on.

Yes we earn less and have got ongoing issues, but for all the money in the world I wouldn't like to have a deal like the WW one where you struggle to get your 2 requests per year. There's life outside work for many of us, I adore my job but my personal like is much more important, takes precedence over anything else and I am happy that I can achieve a good life/work balance doing what I love most.
We are considered the "poor" BA crew, but we're not that poor, really, if you consider all the things as a whole :)

FBW

PS:for YD :E I should celebrate now, this is my 737th post on pprune ;)

[traveller5]

I get the feeling that the SFLGW will ultimately be an all round winner, for crews and BA. As keeperboy says, the current terms and conditions at LHR WW do actually restrict crews themselves...creating sickness...meaning the company try and get on top of sickness...meaning crew get upset at being challenged for being sick....leading to BA wanting to change the policy...leading to crews getting annoyed at any change in terms.....a right little vicious circle!

I don't think the bullyboy tactics work, but maybe a series of trials for proposed changes might give LHR crews food for thought.

[RNboi]

Superboy,

Working things out in my head I would expect maincrew to earn between 1300-1600 once and I repeat once all the routes come over. You must be able to live on that.

YD

Yellowdog if that is true then that would be maneagable. Just out of interest apparently the promotion from Main Crew to Purser will be relatively quick at LGWSF for the right people, what is the jump in basic to the bottom of the Purser scale?

[flybywire]

about £4,500 p.a. basic salary more than new main crew.

[RNboi]

Thanks for that FBW, not loads but a definite improvement, there may be light at the end of the tunnel afterall!

[Uncle Silas]

test test test test test:ugh:

[yellowdog]

All,

Firstly I would like to openly apologise to Superboy once again. It wasn't meant as apersonal attack on him, and if it came across that way then I'm sorry.:\ :\ :\ I must have been tired, emotional, and a bit the worse for wear:(

Trouble is this is such an emotive issue sometimes things get the better of me. Which funnily enough, for those who know me, isn't like me at all.

Anyway enough of the backtracking and apologising.

RNBOI,
FBW is right and the Purser promotion is about £14200, I think.

Keeperboy,
I really respect your attitude as well. I seem to think that WW conditons will have to change to suit the Company. However it does still get my back up when they ask for our support for the strike when, to tell you the truth, they have never given two pennies for us.

WLITS,
Once again you are the voice of reason. Thank you for supporting my thoughts. I, along with FBW by the sounds of things, was one of the few that voted against the whole SF fleet thing. Not because I didn't want the LH but because I was hoping that as the Company needed SF fleet more than we did then the t&c's may have been better. But saying that I am enjoying the trips and my money has improved considerably.

Superboy,
Once again it wasn't personal. The person you need to contact is, firstly your union. Write a complaint letter to them. Then copy in the person who is in charge of the GVA hotel. This info can be found on the intranet under the crew hotel guide. Each hotel has a person who looks after it.
I'm sorry you were lied to by recruitment what sort of figures did they quote you? I have just looked at my allowances for November and I can say that the LH is making a considerable difference.
I do look forward to flying with you, especially as WLITS says you are great at your job. Hopefully we can let bygones be bygones.

As I said in my original post I do feel really sorry for the new recruits because the money is so poor. It will get better though I'm sure, so if you enjoy what you do stick it out.

YD
Who will think before he types anything else:}

[twisted-diamonddolly]

I'm getting fed up with all you LGW crew saying everything is inevitable. ITS NOT!!!! Unfortunately LGW has always been screwed by the company and was formed from the ops of many airlines that ALREADY had inferior T&C's to LHR.... There seems to be this sense at LGW that "we've always been shafted and we don't deserve any better and I'm not in the union anyway". When SFG was proposed all everyone at LGW EF could see was the chance of longhaul and were blinded by it. LGW WW DID NOT VOTE on terms and conditions of SF, we only voted on the transfer to LHR. LGW EF accepted the SF deal , BASSA did the best they could but didn't have a strong hand ( because of the attitude of LGW crews), they DO at LHR.All crew should all log on to the BA BASSA website and see whats happening and educate yourselves. LHR is a much different base in terms of militancy and backbone than LGW. I say this as an ex LGW WW. So join your colleagues at LHR. VOTE YES and stop accepting everything as a done deal.:ugh:

[bad bear]

Can BA long haul cabin crew "sell" days off? i.e. if BA run short of Cabin Crew what do they do? Do they just cancel flights or do they offer money to crews on their days off

If so what is the rate of pay?

[tofster]

Twistediamond,
Well done for strengthening the LGW/LHR divide. I am in favour of striking but your post was inflamatory and I fear that it will turn more LGW crew against LHR and agaist a "yes" in the ballot.
Just an observation.

[flybywire]

Well done for strengthening the LGW/LHR divide. I am in favour of striking but your post was inflamatory and I fear that it will turn more LGW crew against LHR and agaist a "yes" in the ballot.

I agree entirely. Gives me (and probably many, many others) no motivation whatsoever to compromise my position in the company to give you guys a hand. :=

As for inevitable stuff, we'll see.... :hmm:
I have just read the CC News which states that the new EF service (which includes reduction in crewing levels) at LHR is well received by both customers and crew. WE know it's the opposite, really, they did it with EF LGW and now they're doing it with EF LHR in the exact same way. Did the big Bassa do anything to prevent that? Maybe. Were they successful? Ehm.....don't think so! Not until now anyway. Changes are happening, whether you want it or not.
Bad way of thinking on my part - I was famous in school for being the first to organize demonstrations and strike for the students' unions - but BA is another story. We have Willie up there. If you manage to piss him off big-time he has soooo many weapons in his pocket, you wouldn't believe.

I have seen an airline which was very dear to me close for one day just to re-open the following day with completely different t&c's......at that point it was a "take it or leave it and be grateful I am not making you re-apply for your jobs" situation........Many BA crew wouldn't even be given the job a second time if they had to be interviewed again....

FBW:mad:

[twisted-diamonddolly]

Guys from what I read I don't think my post made any difference. None of you were in the mood to support LHR anyway but I certainly didn't want to drive a wedge especially at a time when we should all be standing together. I had just come from compass was a bit tired and emotional and guess I was a bit pissed off because like it or not there is a sense on this thread that LHR are getting what they deserve.

ps maybe lack of backbone was a bit strong but you have to admit there is alot more apathy amongst LGW crew.

[SuperBoy]

there is a sense on this thread that LHR are getting what they deserve.

Diamonddolly contrary to popular belief EVERYTHING isn't always about LHR.

I'm much more interested in whats happening at LGW right now, same as LHR have been doing for years. Once LGW is sorted out then I'm open to possibilities wrt LHR.

There are many more factors but I would concider a strike if it affected all of us not just LHR. Losing the CSD position at LHR (we have CM at LGW) would not be one of them. Harsh I know but true.

As FBW said WW has many more tricks up his sleave. So far he has gotten away with everything that he has done and has anyone stopped him? Has anyone tried? Has anyone even attempted to stand up and say NO! I rest my case.

YD,
I didn't take it personally, as I have said many times before we all have different points of view and that is what makes this forum interesting. I too hope to fly with you. :)

[flybywire]

None of you were in the mood to support LHR anyway.

Well your supposition was in fact wrong!
I personally was going to go ahead despite 1) I am not in NAPS 2) I am grounded and my striking wouldn't affect BA anyway.

[tofster]

I'd second that, I know lots of LGW crew that would strike. Me included. But posts as yours makes me think otherwise, when you post on here as LHR crew you represent a lot of people. Some people will think that your oppinion is the general oppinion of LHR crew as its mainly LGW crew that tend to post here, shooting yourself in the foot a tad my dear.

[twisted-diamonddolly]

Guys think of me what you will but since I don't think you all have access to BASSA atleast read this please..

OPEN LETTER FROM THE BASSA BRANCH SECRETARY 08 December 2006
A message from the Branch Secretary – Ideologies clashing.

Having being involved with BASSA either as a rep or Branch Secretary for 15 years now I have seen at close hand how BA Industrial Relations behave. I have been involved in a few strikes and have lived to tell the tale but even I was amazed yesterday at the attitude of David LeBrecht who is the head of BA Industrial Relations.

At a meeting called to try and resolve our problems his barely concealed aggression, his outrageous statements, his dismissive manner and basically everything about him had the exact opposite effect in producing the better relationship that BA claim they want. If ever there was a case of throwing fuel onto an open fire it was Mr LeBrecht’s performance yesterday. 24 hours later the reps that were present are still shaking their heads in amazement and, to be frank, anger. To re-introduce the topic of hourly flying pay beggars belief. He would have done less harm had he thrown a live grenade into the air.

I went into that meeting hoping that we would see a shift in BA IR policy and maybe, with it, an improvement in our relationship. Well we did see a shift, a big one but it was in the wrong direction, and then some.

Being a curious man I always try and “comprehend” where the other side are coming from or, at least to try and view things from their perspective, but what I saw yesterday chilled me to the bone. BA are now completely driven by cutting costs to such an extent that they are becoming blinkered. Mr LeBrecht frequently mentioned BA’s desire to be competitive which is why he feels justified in attacking your terms and conditions and why he stated that your terms and conditions would get worse. Now I understand the desire to be competitive (and here is where BASSA and BA ideologies clash) but not to the extent where the employees suffer because of it. There are lots of ways of being competitive in the market place and keeping the workforce happy but sadly BA management are not interested in the latter. BA must be competitive at all costs is the BA mantra and look out if you do not choose to go along with them. It is this mad compulsive philosophy that must change if BASSA and BA are to ever work together again. Under David LeBrecht it is evident BA are determined to drive a coach and horses through everything we hold dear. This brings me to one of the fundamental reasons as to why we are asking you to take industrial action. It is not only because of all the “failures to agree” which we have outlined in the forthcoming newsletter but equally importantly it is to make BA see sense and to moderate this obsession that to be more competitive at all costs is the only way. I am not a businessman but I would have thought one of the best ways to be more competitive was to keep your workforce happy. BA need to understand this.

Finally as I said at the beginning I have experienced quite a few disputes with BA over the years but I can never remember such overwhelming support before. My computer has, since the orange flyer was sent, received nearly 1000 e mails from members offering support and checking to see if their details are correct. Literally hundreds of new members have joined BASSA in the last week. This is really heart warming and I can vouch that the reps have been much bolstered and heartened by your support. These are not pleasant times. From the amazing remarks made yesterday it is clear BA do not have a clue about how you feel. Come the close of the ballot I have a feeling there might be a rude awakening!

Thank you – Duncan Holley.

[SuperBoy]

DD,

As you are so involved with all this.

If LHR goes on strike and LGW doesn't will that change the outcome? As there are 14000 crew at LHR and only 1350 at LGW.

Say LGW decide to strike along with LHR how will this change anything for LGW?

Shocking as your description of Mr. Lebrechts attitude is, you forget that at LGW we are already working these "eroded conditions" and have already set the benchmark. I doubt that they can make much more cutbacks at LGW as we are already operating min crew.

I am sorry for the predicament that LHR find themselves in but I am yet to see a persuasive argument as to why LGW should also go on strike. Believe me I am desperately looking for a good enough reason.

I do however sincerely hope that LHR prevail over the corporate giant maybe that will give us the morale boost that most of us so desperately need.

Hypothetically speaking: LHR & LGW strikes. TU magnanomously prevail over BA then what? TU forget about LGW again.

It's happened before and it will happen again.

Apologies for the negativity but BA does what it wants and in my very limited dealing with the union so far I have found the reps to be disinterested and completely clueless (perhaps I caught them on the wrong days, everytime)

[Glamgirl]

I struggle to find a good enough reason for strike action on a couple of LHR issues...

Losing a purser on the jumbo (you have another 2 or 3, right?)

Making the CSD role a working position (At least you get a CSD and we're the only airline with a non-working position on board. CSD's get paid a vast amount of money, at least they could do some work for it - yes, I know some do...)

3 crew (we do this at LGW and most of the time, it's a pain in the backside, stressful and hectic. We also have lots of new entrants down here that we haven't got time to keep an eye out for due to this operation. No support from our "colleagues" at LHR though... and no ballot either)

I know changes in this industry are pants sometimes, but seriously, some of these issues needs to be addressed by the company in order for us all to survive and have a job. I'm not pro-BA, I think management stink most of the time, however, a militant union who walk out during talks and refuse to budge or listen is not doing anybody any favours.

Out of interest, I'm just wondering what these outrageous statements from what's-his-name were and what the actual proposals are please?

[twisted-diamonddolly]

Superboy.

For me what it really boils down to is my union asked me to strike. They would only do this if everything else had failed. I am on the new pay scale, have a **** pension and 14 years working for bmi before BA..so I know crap conditions... I value my My conditions so much and want to keep them and keep flying as a career a posiblity. the individual issues though I agree with most aren't the crux of the matter. BASSA needs our support. If we don't strike and the company percieves BASSA membership aren't really bothered BASSA will never be taken seriously again and there will be no protection for anyone at BA. and BA will be able to do anything. Surely thats bad news for all of us?

Guess I'm pretty more caught up in this than I thought. Bassa is no way a perfect union and I know gatwick have real issues which they don't feel are even priorities for the union. I can't really say thats not true. But can you imagine how much worse it could be without bassa?

sorry to antagonise everyone but I guess I love my job and want to fly for another 20 yrs but not if i'm always going to be just earning enough and tired . I've done that already.

[twisted-diamonddolly]

BA MEETING 7th DECEMBER (UPDATED 8th DECEMBER) Thursday, December 07, 2006
Today BASSA/T&GWU held an important meeting with our side being led by Steve Hart our Regional Secretary and the company led by David LeBrecht Head of Industrial Relations. At the start of the meeting Steve Hart confirmed his conversation with Amicus officials the previous evening, that they too shared all the same issues as BASSA.

The meeting was held in an attempt to resolve our many differences and the serious breakdown of our industrial realtionship with BA. We went into the meeting with open minds but we have to report back to you now that if we had any doubts about the need for an industrial ballot then BA's manner and the words they uttered, have completely obliterated any lingering doubt.

In this meeting Mr LeBrecht accused BASSA reps of 'not representing the membership' and of 'winding up the crews'. He then claimed that you were all 'happy and delivering excellent cabin service'. We responded that you were not happy, but angry, frustrated and determined. He patronisingly disagreed.

All this perfectly illustrates what is the fundamental problem in the relationship between the TUs and BA Industrial Relations. To accuse us of not representing you, when we hear from you everyday how the crew are treated by many elements of BA management is an insult. It is BA who are out of touch with their workforce, not us.

It may interest you to know that since the orange flyer landed on your doormats, over 100 non new entrant crew have joined BASSA determined not to miss our ballot - also over 1000 have contacted us with support and ensuring their correct addresses are logged by us. These facts alone show that we are doing something right in fighting YOUR corner.

BA then put some issues of their own on the table, their wish list included, wait for it - they now want all cabin crew to go on hourly pay! That says it all - the ballot remains on course.

Other quotes from BA (Mr LeBrecht)

"I feel sorry for you as a Trade Union as perserving and improving conditions within British Airways is no longer a realistic expectation"

"If the employer was that good you wouldn't exist"

"It's unrealistic for crew to expect promotion" said in relation to PSR switch upper deck

"We, (BA), will not tolerate a position where a Trade Union says NO"

"I don't know why we're here....these discussions are a sham"...this was his opening gambit

"Sometimes you may not like the answer...we are still going to do it"

BA then wanted to discuss their own agenda:

Disruption agreement and operational alleviations
Hourly rate
Holiday pay (lack of)
IFS business plan
NSP seating

In conclusion, not only did BA refuse to address any of our issues they introduced some extra items of their own including the very unpopular and already rejected hourly flying pay instead of allowances.

Even the most hardened rep was quite shocked at BAs complete lack of interest in addressing the issues we have between us. Then to introduce an item that they know is universally unpopular with Cabin Crew was beyond belief.

I think by now, if you read Mr Lebrechts quotes, you will be left in no doubt how BA regards your future. His words have certainly bought home to us how vital it is WE stand united and firm against BAs plans.

YOUR support has been over-whelming so far.

YOU are giving us the strength to take the fight to the company. KEEP IT UP!

[Off Stand]

Well said twisted!! We need to be united here. As the very first post on this thread says, The moderators will forgive me for opening a new thread, but I cannot stand the fact that BA love us to feel like two (or more) companies!.

Glamgirl, I understand why you're wondering why we are making a fuss over losing a purser off the 747, one of the reasons is that promotion on our fleet comes around once in a blue moon (with my date of joining, I am looking at 10-15 years), so losing a purser off that aircraft would leave less proportion of pursers needed on that fleet, so would prob have to wait for another 5 years on top of that.

I know that the CSD position is seen as a none working position, I can count on one hand (when we still operated all 9 routes at LGW) the CSD's that didn't help with the club or W/T service, esp when we operated that flying caravan that is the 3 class!!!

Don't forget, LHR EF, LHR WW and us guys at LGW WW were not actually balloted by any unions to go on strike over the t&c's now being endured by SF LGW. If a balloted had been actioned, I personally believe that we would have voted in favour of action.

I love my job and I enjoy my current t&c's as it allows me to live my life the way I am happy with financially and I would like to carry in doing this. If things change, I will have to reconsider doing the job I enjoy so much.

[keeperboy]

I think the issue at hand at the moment is that we have two very inflexible, quite arrogant parties at both ends. BA management at one, BASSA at the other.

Now I AM a BASSA member and will be voting YES to support industrial action. This is only based on the three issues currently being balloted on: Pensions, merging of old/new payscales, Purser removal and changes to EG300.

However, something that does annoy me with BASSA is the melo-dramatics that they go on with. The wording in their emails, the dramatic text messages they send. I mean, sound professional for gods sake. Please DO keep us updated with the facts. But please stop the emails and text messages that sound like they were written by the scriptwriters of 'Days of our lives'. I think the quotes mentioned by the IR manager which BASSA reproduced are really bad. But I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall and witnessed what came out of the mouths of BOTH parties.

I just want to know the facts.....in full. I want to know exactly what BASSA proposed, exactly what BA proposed, what BASSA said they were prepared to accept and what BA said they are prepared to accept.

I also think it would be ignorant of BASSA to pretend that EVERYONE is happy with the status quo, ie our t&c's. There is a growing call (particularly on Worldwide) for the hourly rate to be looked at again and some more flexible ways of rostering/bidding/swapping our trips which would fundamentally change the way days off etc are generated.

I think BA's next step in this issue will be to turn groups of the cabin crew community against each other to fragment any industrial action. For example, do a deal with those on the new contract and shaft those on the old contract. Or, come up with a deal that will give a huge benefit to one of the fleets but a huge disadvantage to another.

[Pax Agent]

Hi guys....i dropped my application for BASSA into the boxes opposite crew check out in Jubilee house a while ago but still haven't heard anything...I don't want to simply apply again as I may end up confusing some1! lol!
Does any1 have a number I can call for their lil' LGW office as I don't rele wanna go in on my day off and my check in times r wen they're closed!!!


Cheers guys.
Paxy XXX

[Glamgirl]

PaxAgent, check your PM's (not the ones in the office, obviously :} )

[Glamgirl]

Keeperboy, I hear what you're saying about the non-ballot of issues with SFLGW, and thanks for your intented support, much appreciated. It's just that BASSA at LHR surely could've tried helping us a bit more... especially when it comes to the NSP issue...Maybe I'm naive, but I thought that the union would support both bases, and not just where they themselves are based, if that makes sense.

I've always been on the hourly rate, and that in principle doesn't bug me, what does is different crew get different pay for doing the same job (LHR allowances/LGW hourly pay). Isn't there some law against this now? Before I get myself a reputation of being a miseryguts, I'd like to add that it feels great sitting down route, having a glass (or more) of wine and getting paid for it (it's only enough for a small glass per hour, but still...)

At least it's not all as bad as some other airlines, but that's another thread altogether:}

[banewboi]

Well, here goes, i haven't been on here for a while but i have been keeping up to date with things and i was determined to let the proverbial dust settle before i got on a soap box that really i didn't have any right to jump on.

i've now been with ba for 6 months, in fact wlits trained me (and an excellent job he did to!!) and fbw i think as well (is that right wlits?) i did my first lh the other day (my god i love it!!), so i can't say if it will make a change in my £££, however at my interview i was told a would take home £500 min flight pay.

i came from another airline so i know that bar money and flight pay can take months to kick in, but i have to say that i have realised £500 more or less for the last 3 months so when people keep saying the money is pap for new starters then to be honest i haven't really found that, if you are motivated enough to bother to really get to grips with carmen and they way she works you can get what you want right from the start.

for those of you that have been here for a while i understand that you think things are rubbish here, but the reality of the situation is that they are worse than before but better than anywhere else, this 3 crew moan? i think it works fine, there's no meal service in et and there's triggers for high club loads (which i think need a bit of adjustment) so really it just means that whilst you are at work you have to earn your money rather than floatin around getting in each others way and spending half the flight eating you way into another dress size or reading that latest gossip column. i can honestly say that i've never had it so easy, but conversly because of the cut backs, those of you who have been here a while have never worked so hard!

this isn't a dig at the veterans of dan air, city flyer, eog or just ba for a few years, but i must say that all it looks like a people complaining about actually working whilst at work. sorry guys.

the strike, i think that people should get over this whole lhr/lgw divide, we have more fun, they have more money, the new lhr xfers have said as much, sorry if any lhr guys disagree. but we are one company, this isn't a playground so lets stop bickering between ourselves and stand up to the bullies, i think that ba are relying on the fact that a huge majority of new entrants at lgw aren't in the union and a large section of the lgw community aren't strike minded. everyone needs to join a union and be counted. if someone isn't happy we have to support them, it's as simple as that.

lhr i'm sorry but wake up and smell the coffee, you are overpaid for what you do, and there's too many of you, it would be great to keep everything the way it used to be but welcome to the real world, one that changes every day. the company has had to change and we've had to follow suit but for a long term viable future we need to do more. the hourly rate? so you'd loose money but do you really think that what you do is worth all that cash? i know nurses and teachers that earn less than some of you guys, we are technically an unskilled service workforce, there isn't anyone in that sector that get's anything like what we get.

the world has changed, lgw might not be the blueprint for the future at lhr but there's lots of things that may well be, lgw is the future? quite possibly, the finance of the company dictates that we do it cheaper so why not make us do more? £££, pensions, psr on the upper deck, non of it affects me at the moment but i go to work every day with people whom hold it very dear so i will stand with them and will do whatever is asked of me.

i'm genuinly sorry if people don't like what a new starter with a mouth has to say, and i hope people don't take offence, i love my job, my choices and my work mates, i'm happy with my pay and really, i'm happy with my roster, maybe i'm too easily pleased but some are too easily p**sed off!!

love you guys!

[keeperboy]

BAnewboi, I hear what you are saying.

But, imagine at LGW SF if next week BA turned around and said 'we are changing the hourly rate to £1.25 an hour, and taking away two of your days off per month'. Perhaps that put things into perspective. That would be something YOU signed up for that was being changed without any negotiation.

Like you, I also left an airline with crap conditions (bmi) to join BA some years ago.

The reason thousands of crew leave airlines like bmi, virgin, easyjet, ryanair etc to join BA is because of the working environment, pay and terms & conditions. I think I could literally count on one hand the number of crew that have left BA mainline to join any of the afore mentioned airlines.

For once there seemed an airline where terms, conditions and pay were decent. I'm on the new contract, LHR WW and yeah the pay is good but not out of this world. I too, thought like you. WOW! Why are these people complaining???? They have it MADE!

I have to be honest. I am a different person at BA. When I was at BMI I felt no loyalty whatsoever to the company. I went to work with no motivation, no enthusiasm. I'm sure that came across in my interaction with passengers at BMI. At BA, I am happy to go to work. I am happy with the money I earn. I am happy with the way I am treated. I put in 110% and I think this comes across in the way I am in the cabin.

In a little way, I like to think that my attitude might contribute in a small way to the industry record profits we have made. £500M last year.

This is all until very recently.

There are so many issues Banewboi, and while few people are concerned by all/many of them, there is usually one sticking point for everyone.

For me personally, I am not really bothered with the pension issue or the UD Purser issue. The issue I have with BA is EG300. After hefty negotiations, BASSA and BA came to an agreement on a process for managing attendance. After that has been signed of and implemented, BA has just fundamentally changed it.

Now, EG300 hasn't been something that has (luckily) had any impact on me so far. But I thing the issue at hand for me is, if BA think they can come to an 'agreement' with their workers and unions, and then change them at their will, what will be next? The way our allowences are generated? The way our rest is calculated?

You see, you knew exactly what you signed up for when you joined BA. And so did I. It's not that I am asking for any more than what I have. I would also certainly look at any ideas that BA have for cost saving that would provide both a benefit to the company and the crew.

But with our new managers, the problem seems to be they don't understand the notion of 'give and take' or 'negotiation'. It just seems 'take take take'.

There are around 10,000 crew at LHR. Most of us belong to BASSA. And most of us are keen to protect what we signed up for. And with the current environment of 'non negotiation' from BA, there seems few other options available to us.

[banewboi]

I will support any strike that the union ballot's over purely out of loyalty and the desire to make things better but before a strike is called i think people must realise is that when you negotiate everybody gains something but everyone loses something aswell and i think many are unwilling to compromise.

[Hotel Mode]

Can i just say that us pilots are more than a little baffled at BASSA's timing and thinking on this ballot. Strike action normally has a long prior negotiating history and as far as we can tell this all came from a show of hands at a meeting (bound to be the most militant crew). I believ BASSA have told you that pensions are involved, i dont think this can be the case Negotiations are not complete and you cannot legally ballot until a failiure to agree, which has definately not happened yet (that said if and when it does we'll see you on the picket line)

I've just picked these from the first BASSA newsletter thingy from earlier. With the reasons why most of the nigels think its a bit quick to ballot
1) As of Feb 1st the upperdeck Psr is gone. The ultimate goal is
have a 2 more gone by the end of 2007 leaving 1 CSD & 1 Psr on
longhaul aircraft. The CSD role is also being looked at. Do we need one??
If this is true about the upperdeck purser then fine, but i havent seen anything apart from from BASSA that BA have imposed this. That said, long term, do we really need 5 supervisory crew on the 747? I think the upper deck purser is the wrong one to go myself. But if the promotional prospects were lost i think some form of extra allowance/training for upper deck crew would be good. As BASSA agreed to go to CSM and Psr at LGW on the 777 it does make it harder to justify the extra Psr ar LHR.

As for the CSD bit this is classic scaremongering. BA have never suggested this and ts certainly not a reason to strike now.
3) SFG been told BA can no longer afford downtown hotels. Airport
hotels are being sort.
Great spelling. But as i understand it the Location and some of the standards element of your hotel agreement was negotiated away a few years ago. Hence you're in Midrand we're in Sandton in JNB. And Club Quarters/ Grand Hyatt in SFO. BA havent made moves elsewhere as it is cheaper to keep us together. If your hotel agreement already allows this how can you strike now?
6) No big figures for severance. Statutory Minimum.
Well then noone will take it and BA wont lose any of the more senior crew, Thats more BA's problem than BASSA's, were not talking compulsory redundancies here.
7) T5 report time 1hr 10 before dept. Arrival 30mins.
This will take SFO, LAX & NRT (new routing) out of LR and make them
night stops.
Well the talk of NRT is utter rubbish, there is no shorter routing we already go the quickest way. The other 2, well T5 will result in shorter report times, so i dare say some flights will become nightstops and LR payments will be reduced, same applies to us(we'll most likely lose 4th man to HKG and GRU amongst others). But they can only reduce the trip length if its in your industrial agreement already (SFO will be similar duty day in T5 to SEA now), nowhere has anyone suggested changes there. So can you really strike about doing something thats already in your agreements?

Old/New pay rates : Very good aim but why now? Its never been mentioned before.

EG300 : With you 100% :D

By bringing so many issues to the table at once BASSA have just given WW an excellent opportunity to try and break the union, this is clearly now the plan (I dont think it was before the Ballot was announced) and thats why he's brought in other issues such as the hourly rate etc and started the dirty war in negotiations. By bringing so many items in you have to decide which ones will you come back to work for, because you cant win on them all.

The other thing is, will this unite the crew? I cant see Gatwick striking for these reasons at all (it would be illegal for most of them : secondary action) The SH crew wont strike for LH issues and vice versa, I suspect thats the reason New/Old contract was included otherwise its pretty much all LH. I suspect most of the European crew wont strike and I suspect BA will be prepared to let it run a few days whilst crew lose money/get disrupted and start trickling back to work. Theres high stakes here.
Good luck whatever is decided.

[keeperboy]

HotelMode you raise some really good points. many of which I have asked myself.

I think that BASSA is trying to throw as many 'issues' into the pot as possible to gain maximum support for the ballot. For example, the pension issue may only be of massive importance to those that have been in BA a bit longer than say 4 or 5 years. So, add the 'merging of new and old contracts' into the equation and you also have the backing of those with less than 4 or 5 years experience (obviously new contract).

BA have stated that they wish to remove a Purser. I do however (personally) support this position. As you have mentioned NO industry or company in 2006 can justify 5 'managers' for 10 'staff'.

What I have a problem with (on the BA side) is this: they have so many means of which to communicate with us. Our home address, ESS mail, crewlink etc etc. They could spell out every single issue that BASSA has said 'will happen' and give a black and white guarantee that those issues are not being discussed at the moment. And yet, so far anyway, BA chooses not to do this. Now in my eyes, this means one of two things. 1) BASSA is right. Or, 2) BA WANT a confrontation with the cabin crew to test their resolve and union support.

BA do things like propose the issue of an hourly rate, yet refuse to give us the figures per hour which can only raise the eybrow of the crew community. Again, I would support an hourly rate IF IT WAS THE RIGHT RATE. But without any figures it could be £1 p/h or £10 p/h. How are we meant to work out if it is a good deal or not? All we can rely on is BASSA's reccommendation.

Why not make a statement to crew that box payments, ETP, STP, 5 sector days etc are not in the pipeline (which are all things BASSA are claiming are). BA's silence on the issue really is quite deafening.

Saying that, I do really hope that some middle ground will be found. I hope the moderates from both BA and BASSA will come out of their holes and start some reasonable NEGOTIATION.

I believe that Willie is now concentrating on turning the various fleets/contracts within cabin crew against each other in order to ensure a total walk-out doesn't happen. For example, do a deal with those pn the new contract in terms of basic pay, yet introduce an hourly rate etc etc. As you mention, I think there will be many tricks up his sleeve.

[flybywire]

Superboy....I agree with you. In the current times the only thing that would move LGW crew to strike is the proposed NAPS deal (which stinks) and considering that SFLGW is a very young fleet i.e. lots of people on probation, most of us on BARP anyway (which stank from day 1 but we had no other choice) and that the only people who are affected by the NAPS changes are the few ex-DANair birds ;) and ex-CityFlyer/EOG who haven't left for LHR yet. So I would say that whether LGW strikes or not will make little difference to the outcome of the strike!

I have always said that we should be united as a whole workforce and that BA has worked to divide us, however we have always tried to feel closer to LHR and have always been kicked in the rear. It would be time for an effort from the other side, really.

As for the changes BA wants in the T&C for LHR I agree that some are not good. I do not like the idea of losing a purser on any LH aircraft (for LHR crew's info we in fact will have to fight to have 2 pursers on a 4-class 777 as we have only 1 at the moment and don't see that changing!) but at the same time 2 senior crew on a SH aircraft seem one too many in my opinion, especially when the one sitting at the front doesn't have a specific role in the service.

As for the hourly rate.....stinks but everyone else does it and BA know it! They'll try all the tricks possible, even making your life at work miserable if needed be. There are thousands of crew who do without meal payments etc and they do the same job in the same way as LHR crew. It's cheaper. This way they buy 2 cabin crew at the price of one (just like deals in tesco's). This is called good economy!
They will get that I am so sure. Strike or not. Sorry for being negative but unfortunately it's how it feels at the moment. Management stink, they were hired for a reason, which is not because they are nice and not even because they are stupid.

FBW

PS: banewboi I am not a line trainer.....sorry! I think I know who trained you though, I actually started at H6 just as she was due to have her baby :)

[WeLieInTheShadows]

If LHR crew want our support, get the union to sort out SFLGW ongoing issues first as a show of good faith. They are already ongoing and not proposed as all the issues detailed in the newletter are.

Our issues are: NSP entry (its been ongoing for years!) and Breakfast allowance for Longhaul (we're flying the routes, should be getting free breakfast, but not!).:mad:

Sort them, then you'll see some LGW support.

Not before:=

[disappointed]

I have not read all of this thread but I have read enough of it to understand what its all about. I dont post on this forum very often but on this subject I do have a few things to say.

Firstly, 'hotelmode', I have had a Cabin Crew manager on board my last two trips and both confirmed that the upper deck purser is set to go on feb 1st and that the intention is to have the crew down to one purser and one csd by the end of the year OR to remove the csd and have just two pursers.
They also both told me that there would therefore be 400 pursers surplus - some they hope, will accept severance, some would take part time, some would have to work as main crew but retaining their purser pay scale, and some would be promoted to csd. Now perhaps it is me thats nuts but do the last two options really make any sense at all? Pay someone to work down? what cost saving does that achieve? Pay to promote to a position that theyre considering taking away? hmmmm clever .

Meanwhile 40 new managers have been employed within IFS to 'manage' the pursers!!! you couldnt make it up could you?


Now to all of you at lgw who feel neglected and cant see any reason you should support this strike and vote yes:

I can only say that after 18 years at BA I know what will happen. If BA walk over us now and change terms and conditions at LHR I GUARANTEE that it wont end there - your terms arent great now - but do you honestly think that it ends there and that they wont come back to try and take even more away from you ?

Showing BA that we are divided now opens up the flood gates for the future and you will not be safe. BA will achieve what they want: Staff who do not come here for a career but who come to fly for 2 or 3 years and then leave... and people who are that temporary can be worked to death and walked all over with no concerns whatsover from their employers, so watch out.

Perhaps we at LHR didn't take enough notice of what was going on when your contracts and terms were being developed - do you think that not supporting us now makes things better? Two wrongs do not make a right, people make mistakes and learn from them.

[Hotel Mode]

Well I dont think CCM's know any more than we do, they're notoriously unreliable. I just keep coming back to why now? Willy needs a industrial victory, the pension is clearly proving too difficult as they keep back peddling. BASSA are just stepping straight into the firing line. This way WW can attack a fairly divided workforce who historically will always look after number 1 when the chips are down (LGW is a case in point) maybe force a strike (and with EG300 it cant be a cowardly mass sickout this time) and probably win most of the important concessions whilst giving in on others. Saves the company cash and comes out looking all butch. Meanwhile he quietly complies on the pension which would have brought the whole company to a standstill for a long while preventing further trouble. You're a much easier target than the whole airline combined. BASSA's communications are so low on fact and so high on emotion I think youre talking yourselves down a very big hole.

Theres also a ridiculous amount of talk about things BA might try in the future, and not much about what the reality is NOW, all to get support for a strike. If BA really do propose 1 CSD and 1 Psr I'll be with you on the picket line but they haven't. Your reps are using a maybe, possibly threat of future demands to justify this strike, is that not a bit odd?? Its seems very much like the famous "45 minutes" for Saddams WMD to me a technique into scaring you into a made up conflict. Nobody talked about striking 3 months ago, it was only when the most militant turned up for a branch meeting and had a show of hands, and now they are doing their best Daily Mail impersonation to scare you into a fight that i suspect the reps are relishing.

[justwannabeapilot]

Youre right Hotel Boy. BASSA reps have nothing better to do than sit around formulating plans to strike. I mean look at how many strikes we've had this year. Oh no wait .... we havent had any.

Never mind, we can always just lie down and take the steamroller treatment, instead of attempting to stand up for ourselves hey?

Its very easy to sit in the "Ivory Flight Deck" and look down and pass judgement on the "little people" but we have been and still are in a struggle not to try and gain anything better but just to maintain what little we already have.

If that takes industrial action to achieve then so be it. Unfortunate as that might be, I cant see another avenue for us to choose.

Well done for perpetuating the cycle of division between flight and cabin crew!!!

:ugh:

[Hotel Mode]

Well done for perpetuating the cycle of division between flight and cabin crew!!!


If you're not with us you're against us right? Very constructive.

We're all being battered by BA at the moment all i'm suggesting is you take a CALM look at the issues. You're getting all over excited about what MAY happen in the future. Removing 1 Psr from 1 Aircraft Type is not "being steamrollered". If you actually read what i wrote i'm not saying BA's right but by lumping everything together BASSA may be playing into WW's plans and I dont think anyone wants that.

Some of the problem is that theres no option for BASSA to use other than strike. At least BALPA can work to rule for a while to help negotiations on their way.

And its a bit disingenuous to put things like "little people" in quotation marks when its not a quotation.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Disappointed.

I like your post, you sound very reasonable.

It's also nice for someone from LHR to finally admit that you guys may have dropped the ball at LGW.

Your also correct that two wrongs don't make a right.

I absolutley argree.

Which is why it would be wrong of LHR not to stand by us when our T&C's are being erroded away RIGHT NOW (not just planned to happen like LHR).

You do mention that BA will not stop where it has with SFLGW. TOO RIGHT, they're trying to take our breakfast allowance as we type!

We need your support so we can keep it.

SFLGW is the benchmark BA is trying to get LHR to. If you let it get dragged down even further (it can't go much further!) then LHR will get dragged down even further.

Support SFLGW and we will support LHR.

I urge all LHR crew to speak to their reps to not let the bar slip any lower at SFLGW.

The worst of the damage has always been done. If you let it get worse you only make it worse on yourselves.


The other bone of contention I have is NSP entry.

Now I can see the reason that LHR crew would be pissed off with the removal of the UD PSR. The fact that it slows down promotion and transfer I can see is a big motivaor not to get rid of it, especially if promotion to PSR is up to 15 years on WW.

This is also the reason that EOG/EFLGW was not allowed into the NSP earlier as well.

If you look back a page or so you'll find a post from Yellowdog concerning an announcement concerning SFLGW entry into th NSP, which I had on very good authority was due at least last week.

Now of course the result of this would in theory have a similar effect to the removal of the UD PSR eventually down the line.

What really concerns me is....no announcement has happened.

If it's the LHR unions putting a spanner in the works AGAIN for WHATEVER REASON, LHR will be thin ice asking for SFLGW crew support in this fight.

Guess we'll see....

Let's hope it isn't the case for ALL BA crew sakes.

[justwannabeapilot]

Firstly I didnt say anything about you being for or against anyone. But you do seem hell bent on ensuring a constant theme of them and us.

Secondly this ballot for strike isnt just about one item (the removal of a PSR from the upper deck). It also includes, among others, the following items :

Breakdown in industrial relations

Pensions

Application of EG300

Joining of Main Crew new starter rates to old rates

Purser Junior swap

Fixed links

'Preferred seller'

Man Base closure

900 hours

Downroute report times

So its not just one sticking point as far as the cabin crew are concerned.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.

As for your last remark, about my supposed grammatical error? Quotation marks may also be used to set off specific terms or words and not just direct or indirect quotations. And for reference, the word disingenuous, infers insincerity. And that's just plain rubbish!

As a footnote, I am not at all naive when it comes to office politics. I am sure there are plenty of things that go on behind closed doors that we do not hear about. I assure you that I am not one to blindly follow what the union says nor what the company states.

However, based on my own personal experience of both sides in this conflict, I have to say I agree with the current stance of BASSA. If we do not stand up now, where does it end? Complete disregard for our current terms and conditions? Destruction of any future ones?

I hope not and as I said earlier time will tell.

[Carnage Matey!]

"Breakdown in industrial relations" So you're ballotting because you don't like the management? So how exactly do you get to win on this issue?

"Pensions". Again, no failure to agree as yet so quite possibly illegal to strike on this one.

"Application of EG300". Can't fault this one.

"Joining of Main Crew new starter rates to old rates " Signed away at the end of the '97 strike and it's not coming back. The whole point of the new contract was to save cash, do you think BA will tear that up and perpetuate having the highest paid crew in the industry?

"Purser Junior swap ". Do we need 5 supervisors for 10 staff? Really?

"Fixed links ". Errr you don't do them any more and at T5 there'll be no CATs for you anyway.

"Preferred seller". Work hard and make yourself more cash?

"Man Base closure" Its a shame but I didn't see anyone striking over the BHX base closure.

"900 hours ". Being run by BA exactly in accordance with the CAAs requirements. Nothing you can do about it.

"Downroute report times". What exactly are they doing to those? You already can report before the flight crew and the aircraft isn't going anywhere without them.

This seems to me, to an extent, to be BASSA reps throwing their toys out of the pram because they are receiving a taste of their own medicine. For years they have just said 'No' to BA and IFS management have capitulated.

"Want a grand for slipping in Macau during SARS? No problem"
"£200 each for working one down? Be our guest"
"You want to decide when we'll work one down for cash? Thats fine"
"Double allowances for a trip change on the day? Take it away!"
"Want to get off your trip cos your a minute late. No objections here"

Now that BAs management have finally learned to say 'No' to the BASSA reps they all start throwing a hissy fit and complaining about a breakdown in industrial relations.:rolleyes:

[jerrystinger]

Carnage Matey has brought up some very valid points. Some current terms and conditions are incredible - "destination" payments (ie turning up for harder flights), working down payments (get the CSD on the end of a trolley in the back cabin!!!), double allowances for changes in trips, 5 supervisors on 747s (!!!), going sick whenever and wherever and not expecting any come back......the list goes on! And now, everyone is upset because people are starting to put a stop to this nonsense and are even suggesting the crew did some work.

I and most of the public will not be behind the crews. Did the 1997 strike put a stop to the new pay scale? NO.

[Rach-G]

In the past when British Airways was not making money we have been willing to cut back and find ways of saving money, the Management have taken and then taken some more, but to help the airline survive we have given and got nothing in return . Now British Airways is making healthy profits, with a high share price and are about to impose Hourly flight pay which will mean massive loss of earnings, if they want to save money shouldn't they start at the top, with Willie himself and Half his salary, like he is trying to do to ours? If we where not making money, then of course we would accept anything to keep our airline running, but when it is just Greed that is fueling this, why should we accept anything, and any saving from the reductions in salary will of course be passed on to the management as huge bonuses for their hard work in shafting us. I think people who are commenting should find out exactly how much we actually earn because if you knew the truth you would be very shocked at how little it is.

[Carnage Matey!]

But I know the truth and a brand new entrant will take home £1600-1800 in a typical month, which is not a poverty wage by any measure. Your post, Rach G, is why the cabin crew don't have a great deal of credibility sometimes. You talk about giving things up to help the company, but really it was only the 16th crew member on the 744, and that came at a time when we were downgrading the capacity of the 744 from 395 to 299 seats! Meanwhile BASSA still extorted all the aforementioned payments from BA. Now people spout on about how the hourly pay will cost them thousands of pounds per year. It won't. It's an hourly rate from check in to check out. Not an hourly flying payment. People are getting all upset because BASSA say its bad but nobody can actually say how much BA are proposing to pay them, and very few dare to calculate what its actually worth overall and state that maybe, just maybe, it might be better for them overall.

[Rach-G]

Carnage you've just shown your ignorance, £1600-£1800 thats a good month, and with the cost of living in the south east that is a poor wage. Are you saying we don't deserve a decent salary? The wages at BA maybe slightly better one month or another than at some other Airlines but it is still an average wage, when the Airline is making huge profits and dishing out Massive bonuses left right and center to Managers, and employing even more Managers to Manage ARI's, why should we take a pay cut, BA wouldn't try to put us on Flight pay if we where going to make more money, its only going to benefit BA, not us. Just look at Single fleet LGW there flight pay is less than £2.50 per hour yes its from check-in to Check-out but its still terribly short of what they should be earning for the long hours and hard work they do,they haven't benefited from Flight Pay neither will LHR crew. Do you think BA have gained the reputation it has from employing the types that would work for peanuts in a burger bar or do you think it will maintain its reputation when it is paying peanuts, our first and club passengers will be happy being served by someone who wouldn't even get an interview at a No frills Airline? They'll save money now but lose alot more in the future

[twisted-diamonddolly]

Well said rach-G

[Carnage Matey!]

Aaaah I am showing my ignorance am I? This is why you lack credibility. £1600-£1800 is not a good month, its the average month. Don't tell me I don't know, I've seen enough of the payslips to know. And thats a poor wage is it? If you are averaging £1600 per month you would have to be earning £22800 per year in a normal job to achieve that. If it was £1700 per month then you'd be on £24400. If you can manage £18000 then you'd need to be on £25900. Compare that to an average salary of £22400 and I'd say you are paid pretty well for a low skill job that requires less than 6 weeks of training. There are plenty of people in the South East earning less than that and getting by.

The issue is not even that you are paid well (which you are for the job you do). It is that BA do not even get value for money. 5 supervisory grades for 10 main crew on a 747. A CSD with a non-service role. 2 supervisory grades on a 767. Less than 40 sectors per month from EF crew. Hugh standby requirements to cover crew walking off flights. BA pay you more and work you less than any other UK carrier, yet you have the audacity to claim you are hard done by?

[TightSlot]

Just a gentle reminder please folks - this is clearly an emotive issue for many and passion is understandable. However, comments such as Carnage you've just shown your ignorance contribute little to the debate except unpleasantness and a general raising of the temperature. For example, the above phrase might be re-written as Carnage, may I disagree with you - because... A little old-fashioned I know, but you get the point I'm sure.

Play the ball, not the player, and the world will sort itself out just fine!

[Rach-G]

Carnage- Whilst day in, day out passenger service may be "unskilled" i'm sure our flightcrew would not be prepared to fly with us if we were unskilled. How many unskilled workers would be able to deal with a incapacitated pilot, fire onboard, use a defibrilator and many other incidents we are trained for?

[Carnage Matey!]

I am one of your flight crew Rach, and I know full well the skill levels of the crew behind the flight deck door, both the good and the bad. I also go to SEP every year and see just how good/bad some of you are at using a defib, fighting a fire or locking an incapacitated pilot in his seat.

[flybywire]

I also go to SEP every year and see just how good/bad some of you are at using a defib, fighting a fire or locking an incapacitated pilot in his seat.

Carnage....I will probably attract the hatred and anger of all the LHR crew here for agreeing with you (somehow I agree in principle but have different reasons) for most of the bassa/ba issues you've illustrated above....
HOWEVER, as for SEP, I agree standards vary a lot, but I have had SEP with colleagues of yours (flight crew) who were absolutely useless too!! In particular one of them was supposed to play the captain during the fire drill and he was a total disaster! And he's paid as a captain on the 777!!! This doesn't mean that all flight crew are useless at their job though, does it?

Please do not underestimate the role of the crew at the back, they have their skills which differ from yours and that's partially why you're doing different jobs. Most do fly in their own free time too you know (I used to see many colleagues of mine at goodwood/shoreham/popham etc) so have good flying skills as well but would never do your job for any money in the world (like me!).

[Hotel Mode]

We only say what we're told to say in those SEP scenarios blame the Instuctors not the pilot.

[Carnage Matey!]

I've been the captain during the fire drill too. Its a contrived affair, sitting in a room being told by an SEP instructor when to give you your instructions to make the drill realistic for you. Neither the scenario nor the time frame are realistic and that exercise bears about as much relation to his command competence as his karaoke skills do! Remember we only know what the communicator tells us! Still I am glad that you have dared to put your head above the parapet and question some of the hot air that is bellowing out from BASSA HQ at the moment. I bet nobodys doing that on the BASSA forum!!!!!

[keeperboy]

Carnage mate, I don't know who's payslips you have seen but £1600 - £1800 per month, take home is definitely not the average for a new starter on short-haul. Perhaps at LHR WW, new contract, it would be fairly average, but on short-haul the average I would say is £1300-£1400.

I think the issue really at hand here, is with many of our terms and conditions, yes, they do seem out of date. And yes, they may be hard to jusity to someone who is not BA cabin crew. And yes, these t&c's probably do invoke anger in some BA work forces whom don't have an effective union and whom have seen their t&c's deteriorate over the years.

Most of us know we don't need 4 Pursers and a CSD on the 747. Most of us know we earn more than the average UK cabin crew member and have more time off. Most of us know the record profits BA has been earning.

However, in any job, in any company, in any industry there will always be one company at the top end of the scale in terms of pay and t&c's and one at the bottom. I mean do those working at Barclays get paid the same as those working at Lloyds? Do those working at DirectLine get paid the same as those working at Churchill? Do pilots or engineers working for Aviance get the same as those at Aer Lingus? I don't know the answer to any of these, but i suspect in every example, one of the companies enjoys significantly better pay, terms and conditions than the other.

And this is probably down to the effectiveness of their union - management negotiation. Unfortunately the NEGOTIATION bit is what seems to be lacking at BA at the moment, both on the management and union side. BASSA has a reputation of being staunch and inflexible, so BA bring in staunch and inflexible management to deal with them. The result? Well what is being witnessed right now actually.

The problem for us now is, we HAVE to vote YES. And if so, see it through to a 'strike'.
I feel a little like I am being held by the bol*ocks by BASSA. I don't want to vote to strike on any of the issues we are being balloted on (which is ONLY pensions, Purser removal and merging old/new contracts) because I don't think we have reached the end of the road negotiation wise.

BA will never back down totally on pensions (at a £500M per year cost to keep the pension status quo they would rather a strike any day). We know we can't justify in any way, shape or form 5 senior crew members on a jumbo. And the old/new contract scenario EU legislation will take care of soon enough anyway.

However, now that BASSA and the hundred odd members whom attended the last meeting have decided this vote is to take place, if there is not a big enough YES vote, when much greater battles come (WHICH I BELIEVE WILL COME SOON WITH THE MOVE TO T5)) we will have no sway what so ever with management.

Personally, I am more concerned with EG300, loss of box payments, loss of STP, loss of ETP. But we aren't being balloted on any of this. Yet, when all this does come to the table, if there had been a dismal YES return on the current issues, management will be able to steamroll whatever changes through because they won't fear a strike based on the previous (ie current) industrial action.

Get what I mean? It is a catch 22. I don't want to strike and don't really believe strongly on any of the issues we are ACTUALLY BEING BALLOTED ON. However, I will vote YES to keep the union in a strong position for when the rest of the stuff comes up. But I AM pis*ed off that BASSA has voted on a ballot now, instead of waiting closer to T5 opening and when more of our t&c's are up for grabs.

[traveller5]

I'm not sure that slanging matches between BA flight and cabin crew help.
BA flight and cabin crews seem to have an icy history anyway - perhaps envy on each side. From an outsider's point of view, and having read a lot in the press and on the net on the BA issue, it seems that both the pilots and cabin crews want, want, want. Times have changed and flying is a glorified bus service nowadays, but the flight and cabin staff seem to be kidding themselves otherwise, and cannot accept that they will have to work both harder and longer to justify the low prices their company are offering (£199 to JFK return for me next Feb).

[Carnage Matey!]

Congatulations, you got one of the cheap, cheap tickets to New York. However thats not the kind of ticket that keeps BA in business, its the 70 Club passengers up front paying several thousand pounds each that pay the bills, so turn right at the door and head right to the back of the aircraft little man.

PS I wouldn't be too smug about your ultra-cheap ticket to JFK. February is at the tail of the window when the cabin crew might strike and slap bang in the window when the flight crew couls strike, so you may well find us want, want, wanting while you're stuck in the terminal in JFK. I, on the other hand, have booked my tickets on another carrier.

[tofster]

Just received this email from a friend of mine....


British Airways Cabin Crew are set to vote overwhelmingly for strike action. This could take place anytime from the end of January through to the end of March but a strike is most likely to happen sometime in February.

British Airways Cabin Crew would like it to be known that they absolutely do not want to go on strike. As Cabin Crew, all we want to do is our very best to look after the travelling public, conveying each and every one of you as comfortably and as safely as we possibly can from A to B. Obviously there are occasions when circumstances conspire against us, both for you the public and us as your crew, but it is often these very circumstances when our passengers appreciate most that they are with a British Airways Cabin Crew. This is borne out by us constantly exceeding every customer service target British Airways have ever set for us and also the clutch of industry awards we win every year - including this year where thanks to our hard work and the votes of you our customers, we walked away with the Best Cabin Crew award.

However, things are not all rosy with the current management of British Airways. Historically, we have always had a proper business relationship with our management. As with any commercial environment or business scenario, there has to be an appropriate level of give and take on both sides in order for anything to work. However, our new management team have a lot of ‘new brooms’ and wish to make a lot of changes. They have approached these changes by refusing to speak to our representatives, declaring their intention to introduce the changes without discussion and openly stating that “we will walk right through you.”

These changes are both to our working agreements and to our employment contracts, including but not limited to cuts in pay, no pay increases at all after a certain time, cuts in promotion opportunities, less rest between flights, removal of working position choice and BA ignoring the wording of their own sickness policy when applying it to Cabin Crew. This certainly has health and safety implications.

These changes go beyond simply working harder in a changing commercial and security conscious environment. They will affect our lives outside work, our take home pay and most importantly our family life outside of work. They will also have a knock on effect to you, our passengers.

We are still trying to get our management to talk to us but they are telling us “we have nothing to talk about”. Unfortunately at the moment we are not seen as people - and we are just like every one of you, doing the best job we can to earn a living and go home to our families, we are seen as expendable staff numbers. And whilst on board, we see you going about your business, travelling to see friends or going on holiday with your families, our current management see you simply as pound signs in seats.

At the moment, a strike is the only way we have of standing up for ourselves and forcing our management to open proper discussions regarding our contracts and our future employment. This can all be avoided with the application of a reasonable attitude and a dose of common sense from British Airways management, but anyone who followed the recent ‘cross wearing’ debacle will know that those qualities seem to be more lacking, the higher up the British Airways management tree you climb.

Should a strike happen and should you be caught up in the chaos it will cause, British Airways Cabin Crew humbly and sincerely apologise to you and ask for your patience and understanding whilst we try to get our managers to speak to us(!)

If you have non-changeable travel plans with British Airways from January to March next year, you can write to our chief executive Willie Walsh at

British Airways plc
Waterside
PO Box 365
Harmondsworth
UB7 0GB

Or e-mail customer relations using this link:

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/custrel/public/en_gb

Please urge him to treat his employees properly or simply provide him with your thoughts on British Airways current management style.

Thank you for your time

British Airways Cabin Crew

[Carnage Matey!]

Seen it before. Given that the decision to ballot was based on a show of hands of around 100 people (less than 1% of the cabin crew at BA) its rather presumptious to state that BA cabin crew are set to vote overwhelmingly for a strike. I predict a marginal majority for industrial action on a very low turnout, followed by a big sick out like in 97.

[Carnage Matey!]

My friend and his wife are both BA crew. One is old contract, joined early 90s, the other is new contract joined around 99. They are on married rosters, fly together on WW, live in a reasonable house in one of the more affordable suburbs of Maidenhead. Two cars, a couple of holdays each year and are saving for their wedding. Doesn't sound like the hard luck story so many proclaim here. He even has time and money for a round of golf, both at home and downroute, and plays rather well. I once dated a new contract stewardess for some time. Thats how I now what a new contract monthly take home pay looks like. I know lots of crew on a social basis from when I worked at a small base, and regularly stop to chat in Compass with crew friends from my short haul days.

You see Anti-Ice, I know all about what you earn, how many sectors you work, how many hours per year you fly, and thats why I can come on here and state facts. Thats right, facts. You and most of your colleagues can only resort to attempting to ridicule these facts and post lots of emotional outpourings in an attempt to obscure the truth. Which, coincidentally, is also the way BASSA work. It's much easier for you to stick your head in the sand and accuse anyone who criticises you of being anti-crew, having a god complex etc etc than to argue your case. Only a couple of posters have the nouse to look at the facts of the case and say many of your agreements are unjustifiable. That is different from saying indefensible, but I don't expect you to understand the subtlety.

[SuperBoy]

I can come on here and state facts. Thats right, facts.

I wish your facts were true wrt how much I earn.

[Dogs_ears_up]

I'm not BA - I'm charter.

However, that doesn't stop me raising a couple of points that I think you should consider:

Most crew in airlines other than BA would very much like to have BA money and T&C's: They aspire to be like that "one day". This in itself doesn't mean much, except that BA are viewed as being "better". Accurate or not, the perception is that BA earn more and work less. Waving individual payslips around in here won't change that perception, and if it goes to a strike, percption is king. In other words, in a strike, don't expect too much sympathy and support from other CC in the industry.

Th real issue, if striking (or threatening to do so) relates to public perception. If the great British public supports such action, you'll win, and if they don't, you'll lose - it's really that simple. Now ask yourselves just how much sympathy and support you expect to receive, and behave accordingly.

[disappointed]

So, the 'most crew in airlines other than BA' who 'aspire to be like that one day' and think BA is better------- Actually aspire to come to an airline that will ( if walsh gets his way) have no better terms and conditions than they already have at whatever airline their currently working at? So THATS why they wont supprt us!!

Strange how we already have crew from other airlines who are offering - OFFERING NOT BEING ASKED- to turn up on the picket line with our food and drinks - if it comes to that.

[traveller5]

Carnage Matey - Yes, I agree that my £199 ticket won't go far to pay towards your pension (or not, in view of the dire deficit), but for a family of 5 it's a question of sense ; BA can get us there at a very cheap price, meaning we spend extra cash on a 4* hotel in Manhattan. Your point of 70 J and 14 F passengers being the real money earners is totally true, but only when the respective cabins are full of real wealth and not upgrades or BA staff! Let us not forget that your job also goes beyond (rich) passengers and includes transporting valuable cargo.

BA obviously would like to invest more in their products, but a lot of the premium revenue would appear to go towards subsidising the flight and cabin crews dated work conditions.

In essence, it appears that BA want to change the balance of power and get employee costs and productivity to a sensible level.

[Strimmerdriver]

Carnage Matey! I only disagree with one part of your posts...£1800pm net is over £30k pa gross by my calcs if one was taxed as a "normal" uk tax payer.
Fresh from the rumour machine: BA are convinced of poor support for the ballot but expect a large sick out. Consequently if they are going to deal with a "strike" they are coming to the party with their whole shopping list;
Hourly rate, no box payments, scheme duty limits, basic hotels, no CAT payments, fixed links etc.
When a certain Copilot pointed out that SH were not exactly flying much yet BA were recruiting he was vilified. Why would BA want to be overstaffed?
This is showing all the signs of a very ugly fight with career changing consequences.

[flybywire]

When a certain Copilot pointed out that SH were not exactly flying much yet BA were recruiting he was vilified. Why would BA want to be overstaffed

Well that Copilot was talking out of somewhere else other than his mouth. Over 90% of the recruitment into BA in the last 12 months was fed into LGW for the new single fleet. We had to more than double our numbers to make that possible. Easy to prove as I'm working in training these days.
As for the SH one out-nightstop-one back trips, I do not know exactly how that works at LHR but at LGW we probably have 4 trips in a whole month like that (out of 1600+). We have a lot of two day-six sector trips and fixed links. I would be in favour of this kind of arrangement (yes, fixed links DO work people, although sometimes it means longer sectors linked together, but when it's a NCL-NCL fixed-link it means you get home some 90mins early!) as we have had for over 18months now and it is somehow working well. I think this is an area you should reconsider guys.

As for the new contracts being brought in line with old ones.....who are we kidding? Why didn't anybody do anything before? When I started at LGW I was (and many other people) on £9,000 exactly per year (gross) when LHR new contracts were some £600 more than us already, and nobody did anything to change that, despite our requests!!! Mr Karl BASSA at LGW even had an argument with me during the initial training presentation of BASSA and refused to address the issue as he kept saying that "it is not true it's all in your head"!!!!!:yuk: How can I - and many others - feel close to BASSA's positions now, just tell me?

The only one thing I agree with you "oldies" in BA is the NAPS issue, the fact that BA took huge risks by their own initiative, stopped paying into it because " things were going well" is entirely their own responsibility and fault and you and your families shouldn't have to pay for their mistakes. Those management ppl who thought they could go away with it should be fleeced right here right now.

As for some crew working for charter airlines thinking that BA is better is true. I used to work for a major UK charter carrier and couldn't wait to jump ship (for other reasons than money). We knew little about BA rosters, t&c's however we used to see that they were well looked after by their unions while our company even refused to accept we might have a union (CC89 at that time) who, by the way, couldn't care less about us. So the fact that the unions somehow are being proactive towards BA issues, whatever they might be, makes BA even more appetible for many of those crew Dogs_ears_up talked about.

[Carnage Matey!]

Well that Copilot was talking out of somewhere else other than his mouth. Over 90% of the recruitment into BA in the last 12 months was fed into LGW for the new single fleet.

Careful now! That still leaves 10% of recruitment going into EFLHR, plus there had been plenty of new faces prior to that. The LHR crew threw their toys out of the pram when that letter was printed yet when a response from a CSD was printed in BA News he revealed that a third of all EF tours contained one or more single sector days! Doh! Bearing in mind there are no four sector days for LHR crew in the middle of a tour that doesn't get a lot of sectors covered.

[tuismile]

to be honest the grass is not that much greener on the other side. I used to work for charter and came to BA for better T & C, apparently better pay and cos i thought the company looked after their crew. I was seriously mistaken!

I honestly think that working at charter was better in many ways. Firstly the company certainly looked after us better than how BA is at the moment. Did we ever have all these changes? NO. Did we ever have ballots? I've only known of one. Did I get paid more? OH YES! Was crew morale ten times better? Most definately. Was there this community division between bases? Never.

To me it seems like BA have got it worked out. Bully the crew as much as possible and we will give in. I never joined BA to join unions and disagree with management all the time. I joined because I love my job.

It's now getting to the point where I am considering joining my old airline again.

But one thing I will say is you must fight for what is rightly yours. And if that means going on strike guys then I'm well for it.

[flybywire]

Tuismile I am sorry you feel disappointed by BA (SFLGW that is, for clarification, otherwise you'll be eaten alive here!) and I am sorry you're thinking of going back to your previous airline.
We definitely didn't work for the same outfit then as for me, despite I used to clear 1500-1600 with them once I was doing mixed flying, the kind of work, kind of passengers, the way the company treated me and the stress they caused (and more specifically: my duty cabin crew coordinator) wasn't worth the money. So I changed and despite on an average month as a SFLGW purser I'd earn 1300-1400 per month considering my bidding preferences, it's sooooooo much better than my previous charter job.
True conditions have deteriorated before my eyes since I joined 3 years ago, and our unions, too busy looking after the golden runway's issues, let them deteriorate.
Am I any sadder now? Not really, the environment at work is great regardless, morale isn't any lower, believe me.

Having said that, Carnage, I'd rather do 4-sector-days in the middle of a 3 day trip than do single 4-sector days.....it's the driving back and forth on minimum rest that really kills me and I'd much rather be driven to a hotel and picked up the following day. So I am with you on this one too.
EFLGW used to have very efficient rosters - I used to constantly be on the 900hrs limit - however tiring, it does make sense for it to happen everywhere else too.

[miche2]

Oh dear! What a mess. Infighting and divided staff, shareholders cashing in millions,stories of management "bullying", a pension shambles, poor punctuality, baggage handlers on a go-slow, unions already printing ballot papers........I was glad I stopped working "on the buses" when I resigned, but am even more content now seeing this total mess. It will end with the weaker side losing........The selling of millions of share options spells out what WW has in mind. What's that smell of coffee?

[SuperBoy]

Yet another informative and constructive post from miche2.

Thanks

[flybywire]

Yet another informative and constructive post from miche2.

Thanks

:E (why isn't there a hugging smily little face...?)

[miche2]

:) thanks........

[SuperBoy]

I was glad I stopped working "on the buses" when I resigned, but am even more content now seeing this total mess.

It is a sad, sad person that begrudges another. I begrudge no one and I know I am a better person for it.

Your words show a great deal of your character. Unlike your wishes for me and thousands others I wish you well.

[jerrystinger]

Come on, everywhere I look it's the "woe is me attitude" and "us poor BA crew", "we don't want to inconvenience you, our dear, dear passenger, but..":{ :{ :{

[traveller5]

I have to agree that there's a lot of woe floating around. Unfortunately for BA crews I think the publicity around the issues causing a strike will not ensure a sympathetic public. We are seeing that other UK airlines work well to different terms and from reading this forum it is clear that BA staff are slightly unfounded in their claims. While I'd like to see them not go on strike, I can't help but feel that they should be on the same terms and conditions as other UK carriers. Unfair?

[Hotel Mode]

I can't help but feel that they should be on the same terms and conditions as other UK carriers. Unfair?

Amazing how many people believe in communism with regards to other peoples terms and conditions isnt it. whilst presumably accepting higher rewards for better jobs themselves.

Or look at it another way, if you want all airlines to go to the lowest common denominator of comfort/safety and service then yes of course all airlines should have the same T+C's our F + J pax will really love it.

[airbus777]

I am proud to work for BA on EFLHR,i work hard and have a family to support.Taking home between 1600 AND 2000 a month only just about makes this possible,but i love the job and Mrs A loves the id90s!!

VOTE YES!

[banewboi]

lgw have always been kept at arms length and been unsupported, on conditions, on pay, on nsp entry. this is now coming to bite lhr when they would LIKE our support, but the reality of the situation is lhr don't NEED it, just want it.

unfortunately lhr are overpaid for what they do and it's hard for anyone to give up money but in this next round between us and ba (because regardless of the divide we must MUST MUST MUST STAND UNITED) lhr is likely to feel the edge of the axe. lgw is a fantastic place to work, we aren't on great money but if t*ts and teeth count for anything you don't see wider smiles in the aisles than lgw right now.

this is how i feel:
WE have a common love and a common enemy right now, WE love our jobs, WE love our company and WE love the lives we are priveledged enough to lead around the globe, our common enemy however is our senior management. as long as he saves money he'll stay, no matter how much WE hate him. WE can't not serve pax because WE haven't the crew or the resources as it isn't the way WE do things, WE can't make him bring the old days back and WE can't make him give us more money. WE are valued above all other cabin crew in the industry and WE are lucky enough to have a superb safety record thanks to OUR flight crew AND OUR engineers, this is OUR weapon.

we can't strike until a failure to agree has been announced but colleagues from everywhere within ba, when this comes it is a call to arms. the business as a whole must defend the jewel in it's crown to stop British Airways becoming a white elephant. lhr, lgw, flight crew, cabin crew and engineers if willie walsh wants to test our strength and flex his muscles then let him, but lets make sure we flex right back.

some us might be young and pretty, some of us might be old and grey, some of us with degree's, some with gces. it is our diversity in skill and experience that makes us strong in our cabin's, deck's or hangers and it is our diversity that makes this airline what we have made it. everything needs to change and grow with market forces, modern culture and the business environment but we have changed and given enough and it is time to ask for something in return.

IF our unions ask it of us WE must stand united as one front to protect everything WE have now and to protect British Airways. if our management continue with this freight train of simply forcing policy we wil be a less motivated, less rested, over worked work force and could easily end up as the latest national carrier to fall to the low cost model. British Airways is not and never will be a low cost operator so we should not have low cost salaries and low cost policies. WE are a full service, 4 class, flag carrier. WE are the faces, the hardware and the driving force behind OUR airline. British Airways is not the brain child of our management, nor is it the garage sale of wille walsh for him to sell us down the river.

WE are Cabin Crew, WE are Flight Crew WE are British Airways AND WE MUST STAND TOGETHER.

[banewboi]

is that a bit much?

[twisted-diamonddolly]

I liked it.:D

[tofster]

I did too, well done matey! Maybe you should be a union rep if you aren't already :D

[eiggy]

Enough already!

At the end of the day what more do we want? We are employees, employed by a company, whom at the end of the day is only trying to do what every other blinking business on the planet is trying to do...BE A BUSINESS!

How soon we all forget the 'truly' unfortunate of our industry.

I am PROUD!!! to be British Airways Cabin Crew and thanks to the sacrifices me and those around me...(Go Gatwick!!!) have made over the past few years, I can continue to have something to be proud of!

Yeh lets strike! But also let's ask ourselves, with the LGW operation appearing to be the forumla for sucess, can we really expect to continue to survive as a business with such a ridiculous indifference in operations?

I've never meet Willie, well, never in a forum! Not sure what I'd say to him if I did but at the end of the day he has a job to do. Yeh he's over paid but what CEO aint.

Ask the majority of the UK population about taking home 1500K+ (apparently that’s what some crew earn, re: previous posts). I'm sure they will recon that we are quite erm...'well paid!'

I ain't a share holder (missed the Abbey share saver boat!...during the war kiddies!) but yes, lets protect British Airways, I mean thats just sense...is’int it?

"I for one will not be cutting off my hand spite my face, convince me otherwise"

At the end of the day we can never work to anything illegal, and to my erm, better paid colleagues, god bless yeh, welcome to the real world of...P.L.C!

[TightSlot]

This thread has become something of a catch-all for BA isuues. I've started a new thread HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256192) for BA Industrial Relations discussions - Please use that thread from now on, and we'll keep this one for other, general BA comments.

Thank you.