Which Microlight?

[pilotjax]

I have held JAA PPL(A) now for 6 years flying club Cessnas and Pipers. Cost of this is becoming an issue and since a friend introduced me to his microlight, I have now found myself at a local field (Damyns hall) and been doing a conversion on a CTSW (spoilt I know) but I now have the flying bug again!

I am now looking to purchase a microlight of my own and am presented with a vast choice. This is my first posting and from viewing some previous threads there are many like minded people out there with a vast amount of knowledge.

I am favouring a shadow at the moment as it has the required two seats and looks to be sensible in the running cost catagory. As this is to be my first departure into aircraft ownership I would appreciate thoughts and advice from those in the know.

[Confabulous]

- What's your initial budget to buy the aircraft?

- Yearly budget for fuel, oil, hangarage and maintenance?

- What do you want to do with the aircraft? (Long trips, buzzing around, aerobatics, taildragger, unusual, farm strips?)

- Do you want to share capital and monthly costs with others or buy outright?

Answering these questions will make the recommendations a lot more specific to you :ok:

[tangovictor]

if speed isn't your main thing, a lot of folk like the skyranger
http://www.skyranger.co.uk/
I haven't flown one, myself, but those that have love them, good value for money,

[Them thar hills]

Jax
The Skyranger is very popular. Lots around these parts.
I know a local one that may still be for sale.
No microlight is cheap, not present day ones anyway.(£20+K)
Have you sampled a Jodel ??
A 2 seat Jodel can be bought for £14k upwards. Yes it may well be 40+ years old, but represents very good value for money, and most will do 90+ knots and have good short field performance.
( I haven't seen a 40 year old microlight so can't make a comparison ):)

[Rod1]

If you have a PPL A then hours spent in a Micro do not count to keeping the licence. Have you considered getting a VLA? A lot of the UK micros have “big brothers” which are almost identical versions but with a higher take off weight. For example a Eurostar with an electric fuel pump is a VLA, without it is a micro. Running costs are identical but you can fit more kit and carry more bags.

My MCR01 Club has an extra 40kg useful load over the micro version of the same aircraft! If you have a full licence there are no disadvantages to the VLA route.

Rod1

[7120]

Rans S6 with either Rotax 582 or 912. Cruise at 70-100mph, trail dragger or tri-gear.
Can build your self fairly quickly and keeps good residual value. Wings fold if you have hangerage problems. Shadow has tandem seating: a bit anti social plus passenger's ears are next to engine.

[trevs99uk]

As your from Essex..

http://www.essexmicrolightclub.org.uk/

we have a monthly pub gettogether...

Next club meet will be Mon 9th October at 7pm Stewart's Bar (top of Western Rd, Billericay) then eat at around 9pm (pizzas at Prezzo).

trevor

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Shadow has tandem seating: a bit anti social

Unless you fly with pretty lady passengers. Is it time for my medication?

[IO540]

I hope this is not too off topic, but could someone explain the difference between microlights and Permit planes?

For the comparison, tet's take a reasonably high performance microlight, not a bottom-end machine which is basically a hang glider with an engine.

I know (I think I know) that in the UK microlights are limited to 450kg.

All of the above are limited to VFR, and I believe they can't fly at night, well not in the UK where night=IFR, perhaps...

But (as an aircraft owner myself and thus knowing pretty well which bits cost money) I don't see an obvious difference between operating costs of the two (assuming, as I say above the ML is not a bottom-end type).

One curious difference is that one can fly a ML on an NPPL and take it to France, but one can't do that with a Permit or a CofA type without permission.

[tonyhalsall]

I have held JAA PPL(A) now for 6 years flying club Cessnas and Pipers. Cost of this is becoming an issue and since a friend introduced me to his microlight, I have now found myself at a local field (Damyns hall) and been doing a conversion on a CTSW (spoilt I know) but I now have the flying bug again!
I am now looking to purchase a microlight of my own and am presented with a vast choice. This is my first posting and from viewing some previous threads there are many like minded people out there with a vast amount of knowledge.
I am favouring a shadow at the moment as it has the required two seats and looks to be sensible in the running cost catagory. As this is to be my first departure into aircraft ownership I would appreciate thoughts and advice from those in the know.
Ha - welcome back. You have done exactly what I did although to be fair I was not introduced to microlighting in something as wonderful as a CTSW. I met a Thruster!!
I subsequently bought a Shadow and have had about 5 years of very safe and uneventful flying in them - truly a fantastic pilots aeroplane and can be picked up relatively cheaply these days. I think I can give you chapter and verse on them if you are interested? Just PM me.
There are some very cheap 3 axis machines to be had at the moment as everyone seems to want Rotax four stroke engines and this is depressing the second hand market for aircraft powered by Rotax two stroke engines. My old 503 air cooled never missed a beat and was certainly up to the job of what I wanted to do in terms of microlighting.
Tony
(I have actually got one of the newer hotship microlights myself now but I would still say that for pure piloting fun you can't beat a Shadow - my motivations have changed that's all)

[tonyhalsall]

I hope this is not too off topic, but could someone explain the difference between microlights and Permit planes?

For the comparison, tet's take a reasonably high performance microlight, not a bottom-end machine which is basically a hang glider with an engine.

I know (I think I know) that in the UK microlights are limited to 450kg.

All of the above are limited to VFR, and I believe they can't fly at night, well not in the UK where night=IFR, perhaps...

But (as an aircraft owner myself and thus knowing pretty well which bits cost money) I don't see an obvious difference between operating costs of the two (assuming, as I say above the ML is not a bottom-end type).

One curious difference is that one can fly a ML on an NPPL and take it to France, but one can't do that with a Permit or a CofA type without permission.

Factory built microlights operate on a BMAA Permit to Fly which is issue by the BMAA as part of their delegated responsibility to the CAA. Home built microlights 'generally' operate on a PFA Permit to Fly which is also issued via delegated responsibility. The PFA are also responsible for Permits on larger aircraft such as Jodels, Luscombe's, Vans, Europa - more traditionally recognised Permit aircraft.
A microlight is defined by a legal weight limitation as opposed to a physical one and aside from adhering to an airworthiness standard called section S a microlight must have a MTOW of no more than 450Kg for a two seater allowing for for 2 x 86kg human cargo and one hours worth of fuel ax max rpm. This means that many 'hot' BMAA factory built microlights have legal weight issues as opposed to physical ones because exactly the same aircraft with exactly the same engine can be made via the PFA as a kit and have a much higher MTOW and operate as a VLA.
Take the CTSW mentioned earlier in the thread although it can't be home built as a kit anywhere in the world (AFAIK) the exact same airframe engine combination is certified at MTOW ranging from 450Kg (UK) right up to 600Kg (US).
It is all a bit of a nonsense really and there is hope that a more rational certification policy will come out of the EASA debate notwithstanding the fact that depending on who you talk to microlights will either be in it - or out of it - who knows??................................
The Permit operating costs between the BMAA and PFA are broadly the same with the PFA possibly being marginally more expensive, or the BMAA being a tad more depending on who has most recently changed their fee structure. Certainly in the greater scheme of things there ain't much difference on that side.

[Rod1]

“I know (I think I know) that in the UK microlights are limited to 450kg.”

The above micro could be on a PFA permit or a BMAA permit. No difference in restrictions, no Night or IFR. 450kg is MTOW of a micro, stall speed etc also comes into the definition. The MCR01 ULC (a Micro) has a biger wing in order to get the stall speed down to the Micro limit. This makes the Micro heavier and slower than the Club version, for exactly the same operating costs.

“I don't see an obvious difference between operating costs of the two.”

Depends what you compare. A PFA Permit aircraft can have 4 seats and 260 hp, but as stated above the VLA versions of micros have the same running costs but higher useful load and sometimes better performance as well.

“One curious difference is that one can fly a ML on an NPPL and take it to France, but one can't do that with a Permit or a CofA type without permission.”

I understand that the French have given permission for an NPPL (SEP) to fly in France, but I am waiting final conformation. This is how the Micro PPL’s first got permission to fly in France. The French then got fed up with issuing separate permission so allowed a blanket approval.

Rod1

[pilotjax]

wow, what a response, many thanks to all.

In my mind I am looking to spend in the region of £10k. Being selfish I want to keep the aircraft convenient to where I live (most convenient to me is Damyns Hall unless the wife has failed to tell me we are moving) and know its available when I want it. That may well make the decision as to whether I am outright owner or share an aircraft.

As to the usage mainly to bumble around UK mainly because I can, with occasional trips to Isle of Wight and Northern France with my once a year trip to the South of France to see my family and check on my inheritance. I also have this ambition to instruct so need to burn fuel to get some hours under my belt to be able to enter training for that. Range and speed is not of real consequence as the flying and visiting new places is part of the purpose of a trip to me.


Can anyone advise as to the pro's and con's of a type approved microlight?

Trevor - thanks for invite on 9th but have prior engagement. I will check website and maybe make a meeting in November

[Jodelman]

One curious difference is that one can fly a ML on an NPPL and take it to France, but one can't do that with a Permit or a CofA type without permission.
The European wide equivalent of the NPPL is on its way and will happen in the next couple of years. Part of the MDM032 recommendation on the regulation of non complex, non commercial aviation.

[tonyhalsall]

[QUOTE=pilotjax;2888328
Can anyone advise as to the pro's and con's of a type approved microlight?[QUOTE]

Type Approved = factory built. You can instruct on it in due course
Type Accepted = home built version.

If you ultimately want to instruct on the microlight which you intend to buy then with your budget you can only be looking at an older Thruster - though you won't be going to France it it too often I don't think.
Shadows are not brilliant as training aircraft though they are quite easy to land from the back seat the view is pants. Not sure how many students will want to learn in a cramped Shadow or older Thruster when most training establishments these days train or C42's and Eurostars.

£10,000 will get you Type Accepted:
X'Air, Shadow C or D or Streak, Rans and other similar
£10,000 will get you type approved:
Thruster T600N, Shadow C or D

If you just want to fly and have fun on your own then I would suggest you look at a Shadow - some good bargaining will get you a good one and you can still take passengers as occasionally as you want to. If you want to take passengers more often then an X'Air / Thruster / Rans type may be more appropriate - slower and not as sprightly as a Shadow but side by side seating and quite sure footed (so to speak) -

Good luck in your search

[Rans Flyer]

Pilotjax,
With a 10K budget, I’d go for either a Shadow or a 582 Rans S6, the shadow is a superb pilots plane but it’s very cramped in the rear, with no luggage space, The Rans is bigger, has luggage space and can be de-rigged single handed.

My mate fly’s a 532 Streak Shadow, and I’ve got a 582 blue top Rans. As well the local trips to Sandown and Popham, we flew around Brittan (2,500 Miles) in a week in June, and next year we are off to Africa and back in 10 days. Check out our site.

You need to try both types, Personally I needed a plane that could be de-rigged single handed, easy to repair (rag ‘n tube), plenty of interior room, decent range (300 miles), and could carry weight (29 stone with full tanks), and was manufactured with quality components (EG: Rans has CNC alloy jury strut couplings, The Sky ranger has a bent tube).
You pays yer money and makes yer choice….

Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk

[7120]

[QUOTE=Rans Flyer;2888620]Pilotjax,
we flew around Brittan (2,500 Miles) in a week in June,

Including Cape Wrath?

[BlueRobin]

I know someone who wants to sell asap and is prepared to let his Skyranger go for £18k. PM me for more details. Similar looking but far nicer and better quality than a Rans S6 (imho).

[sucksqueezeBANGstop]

If you ultimately want to instruct on the microlight which you intend to buy then with your budget you can only be looking at an older Thruster - though you won't be going to France it it too often I don't think.

Some chums of mine go every year to mid France in theirs!! And you can pick up a great second hand Thruster T600N Sprint for not a lot now - the very a/c I learnt in!

A fun and safe aircraft, and very reliable and responsive. They operate on a shoestring and make very forgiving aircraft to learn on. I'd recommend them :)

[B Fraser]

I did an hour in an Ikarus C42 a week or two back and was mightily impressed. A very easy aircraft to land well.:ok:

[pilotjax]

lots to think about, I am going to get out and fly some different types to see what suits best. Consenus would appear to be to go for a side by side seating arrangement rather than tandem. Skyrangers and Rans seem to rate highly but purely on price x-air, pegasus ax2000 or 3000 and Thruster may fit the bill initially.

From looking at various web sites some of the 'newer' composite types look exciting especially their performance. My head says to stick with initial thoughts to purchase something cheaper and gain hours/experience and then move on. My heart says " if you can't afford it, finance it!"

[tonyhalsall]

Some chums of mine go every year to mid France in theirs!!

Whch way way was the wind blowing?