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virgo
3rd Oct 2006, 15:41
I've been reading a book titled "Aircrew" .....the story of the men who flew the bombers" by Bruce Lewis and the subject of Lack of Moral Fibre is raised.
According to his reports, any aircrew member suffering from LMF was off the squadron within hours, demoted and given a deliberately humiliating job - like cleaner in the airman's mess as discouragement to the others.

I never heard of any such problem in my time, but no-one was shooting at us - unless you count the odd Yemeni or Indon having a crack at us with an old Lee- Enfield .303.

What happens nowadays ? Is there a more sympathetic approach or is the prospect of personal humiliation still a deterent to saying you don't really want to get killed ?

Navaleye
3rd Oct 2006, 15:43
I understand the RAF's treatment of one of its own during the Falklands war was far from considerate and understanding, much to the dismay of his RN colleagues.

Monty77
3rd Oct 2006, 18:08
Also, you must consider the difference between conscription and volunteers. If you volunteer for it, expect to be shot at.

There are many in the States who join up to take advantage of the excellent training and qualifications that the US offers to folk who have few prospects.

The downside is, you may have to go to Iraq, as a 20 year-old female with an 18 month old kid. It said it very clearly on the packet when you bought into it.

Big hand to all the female scabbers in the UK who took 'discrimination' compensation when they suddenly changed the rules because Brussels said they had to back in the 90s. 'Oh but I was destined for Air Rank.'.

'But you're a nurse!'

'But I "might" have been AOC 1 Gp'

Yeah, right.

Grabbing plonkerkangorillacows. Just detracts from the females who do a very good job, and pisses everybody off who go OOA to cover for the special needs individuals.

Er... AAAArrrrrgggggghhhhhh

insty66
3rd Oct 2006, 18:20
Big hand to all the female scabbers in the UK who took 'discrimination' compensation when they suddenly changed the rules because Brussels said they had to back in the 90s. 'Oh but I was destined for Air Rank.'.

'But you're a nurse!'

'But I "might" have been AOC 1 Gp'

Yeah, right.

Grabbing plonkerkangorillacows. Just detracts from the females who do a very good job, and pisses everybody off who go OOA to cover for the special needs individuals.

Er... AAAArrrrrgggggghhhhhh


Are you feeling alright Monty?:} I thought this thread was about LMF and current attitudes.

I dipped in here as I'm re-reading Len Deightons "bomber" and one of the main characters is grounded due to this issue.

Severance
3rd Oct 2006, 18:29
Monty, that's the most spectacular tangent I've had the pleasure of reading in quite some time. I applaud you sir, I'm still wiping the tears from my eyes....ooohhhh my ribs.

I love this board:D

Cornish Jack
3rd Oct 2006, 18:56
Virgo
Just an update - LMF has gone AWOL;)
When last working for Auntie Betty the terminology was 'Forfeiture of Commanding Officer's Confidence' - now there's a mouthful.:hmm:

4fitter
3rd Oct 2006, 18:59
I witnessed a case during GW1. The pilot was treated appallingly and was removed so that " he wouldn't infect the other aircrew" :(

SpotterFC
3rd Oct 2006, 19:07
Monty,

One of my schoolfriends grew up to be a lawyer (terrible thing to admit I know...) but whilst in training one of her 'holiday' jobs was to go through files at Innsworth reading claimants Fs 6442 to make an assessment of whether they stood a cat in hell's chance of getting anywhere with their claims before they were taken on by her employer's chambers. She said it was often quite amusing to compare people's claims of greatness against their (confidential) assessments.

Apologies for the thread creep!

Monty77
3rd Oct 2006, 19:23
Once again, I've tried to write an attitude but the reply hasn't appeared. People are replying but due to the absence of my post, nothing makes sense. Moderator : reply?

Monty77
3rd Oct 2006, 19:37
Insty66.

Glad I amused you. If you want thread creep, we can talk about the F1 Grand Prix. It's all perception really.

You join a fighting unit to (potentially) fight. If you end up fighting you may (potentially) die.

If you choose to grow a straggly hippy beard and hang around offices waving placards when you have no chance of gainful employment in that building - then I say: the best of British luck to you.

Chuck another box of tea into the harbour, why don't you, 'cause we don't care.

Young men and women are dying to guarantee (bet you couldn't spell that) you're right to spout of.

Bet this post lasts as long as the last one.

virgo
3rd Oct 2006, 19:39
Cornish Jack...............OK they changed the name (as they do) but was the treatment the same ? Instant demotion to the ranks and to all intents and purposes, public humiliation - or were they quietly and unobtrusively allowed to leave the service after "suitable psychiatric treatment" ?

I know there were a couple of cases of chaps deliberately putting their aircraft u/s at the time of Suez, but that was a "political" objection rather than LMF and in my opinion, they deserved everthing they got.(You can't have a referendum on who you're sent to fight)

Any lawyers out there got any comments ????

philrigger
3rd Oct 2006, 20:20
;)
Spotter FC

One of my schoolfriends grew up to be a lawyer (terrible thing to admit I know...) but whilst in training one of her 'holiday' jobs was to go through files at Innsworth reading claimants Fs 6442 to make an assessment of whether they stood a cat in hell's chance of getting anywhere with their claims before they were taken on by her employer's chambers. She said it was often quite amusing to compare people's claims of greatness against their (confidential) assessments.

Are you sure about this ? I cannot believe that Records Office will let outsiders into their files.

'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

QFIhawkman
3rd Oct 2006, 20:35
Young men and women are dying to guarantee (bet you couldn't spell that) you're right to spout of.


Bet I can spell "OFF" though.

Seriously Monty, your answers do tend to veer off into the ether. This was a thread about moral fibre amongst aircrew and all that. And you go into the realm of nurses etc.
It wasn't (with the greatest of respect) what was asked.

Going back to GW1, and back to the thread, I didn't hear about any pilot suffering from lack of moral fibre. As for the Falklands, current campaigns etc, I couldn't comment.

insty66
3rd Oct 2006, 21:13
:rolleyes: Monty.
I guarantee I can!
As I understand it to be a subject close to your heart I shall expand.
Cowardice, LMF or FoCOC as it is apparently known is a highly emotive subject. You only have to look at the campaign to have WW1 soldiers names cleared to gain an understanding of what stigma is attached to these labels.
I have served in the RAF for 23 years and have been lucky enough never to have faced direct fire. I like to think that if I had or if I do I could respond in the correct manner and not let down my men/Sqn etc etc. BUT I don't KNOW that I would and can't know until tested in that way. This is true I believe for the vast majority of human beings.
Those that have been under attack have my utmost respect, as not only have they proven that they can "do it," they know what is coming next time and still go and "do it."
It is not at all suprising to me that there are people who find that they can't "do it" even less so that there are people who can't "do it" again. We are all after all only human (pilots included;) )
So you tootle off and worry about my sense of humour and and let me know when the next F1 race is there's a good chap!
Young men and women are dying to guarantee (bet you couldn't spell that) you're right to spout of. I think you'll find that it's your right to spout off.:hmm:

Kitbag
4th Oct 2006, 06:51
Insty 66

Nicely put, couldn't agree more.
I have a great deal of respect to those who have faced those challenges and go back again, and for those who have faced the challenge and can't go back again I wonder if, perhaps, there but for the grace of God go I.

FoCOC is such an emotive subject it would be interesting to hear any (anonymous?) tales

Virgo

As for the referendum on who to fight I recall several long, tortuous and fiery threads here re recent and current conflicts

HTB
4th Oct 2006, 13:42
HawkMan

I know of a GW1 pilot who was sent home on the eve of the rough stuff starting - claimed he was suffering from migraine brought on by excessive consumption of coffee. Dhahran. Don't know how it was explained officiially, but he left the service shortly after to fly civil.

CarltonBrowne the FO
4th Oct 2006, 16:17
Pardon an intrusion from a civilian... I thought the real imjustice of LMF was in the way it was applied to aircrew who had gone out on missions, some of them many times, but had simply run out of steam before their tour was complete? Obviously I cannot know first hand, but I am told battle fatigue sets in at different times for different people.
Someone who refuses to serve at all may indeed be a coward, as may someone who goes once but never goes out again. Can anyone who has voluntarily gone on 2 or more missions be said to lack morale fibre?

maxburner
4th Oct 2006, 16:31
HTB,

I would have thought that the diagnosis of migraine was enough to have hime grounded and sent home. I doubt LMF entered into it.

SPIT
4th Oct 2006, 16:51
Hi
In one off my previous posts (I cant remember when:confused: ) I stated that NCO Aircrew in WW2 were treated differently (harsher) that Commisioned A/C.
Nowerday's with mixed crews like the Nimrod if an NCO menber of the crew went LMF would he be treated any differently that Commissioned members of the same crew who may go LMF ???
(PLEASE EXCUSE ANY SPELLING MISTAKES):\ :\

hobie
4th Oct 2006, 17:03
Can anyone who has voluntarily gone on 2 or more missions be said to lack morale fibre?

..... imagine this guys morale fibre during WW2 .....

$$$$ $$$$$$$$$, flew over 1000 missions and was shot down himself sixteen times. ...

SASless
4th Oct 2006, 17:05
Virgo,,

Comparing the casualty rates of other wars and campaigns, the treatment of "LMF" cases, and current events is an unfair comparison.

Bomber Command and the US bomber crews were suffering huge losses. How may times do you roll the dice before you start considering the odds?

With the advent of modern psychological studies of "Shell Shock", "Battle Fatique" or nowadays....."PTSD", much knowledge has been gained on the correct methods of treatment for that.

Pinning a White Feather on the person, demoting them in rank, assigning them to menial tasks as a punishment is the exact wrong way of handling the problem.

A few days rest, good hot meals, a hot shower....clean clothes...basically a decent respite from combat duty works miracles.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is real. PTSD can be a very debilitating problem over time if not treated correctly. We are all, each and every one of us, susceptible to PTSD given the right kind of exposure to horrific events stemming from combat or tragedy/catastrophe.

One does not develop PTSD prior to exposure however.....a sudden onset of a great allergic reaction to having one's butt filled with fast moving junks of metal or bullets is not PTSD but plain old FEAR. Courage is not the absence of fear but rather being able to cope with fear and still carry out one's duties.

It takes a complete fool to suggest a soldier who has campaigned for months and/or years is a coward because he just cannot summon up the courage to continue. In time, we all have our breaking points.

Proper leadership will recognize the onset of this failure of spirit and take effective measures to mitigate or resolve the problem. Done the right way, the soldier will be able to return to combat duty and carry on as before.

Do a bit of Google rambling on PTSD and you will find a wealth of information here in the States. Our Veteran's Administration (VA) finally admitted to themselves this PTSD thing is real and has begun to effectively address those problems suffered by our Veterans.

The British Military can learn something from us on this....as taking care of your Veterans seems to be a rather sad situation of late.

After you read up on PTSD....compare what is known and discussed today and compare it to those dark days during WWII. It will be an eye opener I think.

Cowardice still deserves a Feather....but not those that had borne their share of the fighting.

Pilots flying transports did not have the "LMF" rate hard hit Bomber Command Squadrons did I will bet you. So how does one define a "Fair Share"?

The Gorilla
4th Oct 2006, 17:09
We had an individual on LXX Sqn at the start of GW1 who put his hand up and said not for me ta. Airmen Aircrew, he was simply discharged under LMF and was off the Sqn the same day. He was recently in the national news for saving the lives of some children in a house fire.

There were a number of reinforcee FC's who were recalled from the bunker at startex GW2 who arrived on the Sqn and did exactly the same. They were sent back to the bunkers and one has since been promoted!

Strange game this life eh?

:)

The RAF has recognised and treated PTSD for number of years and did have, when I served, excellent facilities at BZN. Whilst the Medics have a very good "cure" rate an individual who has suffered from PTSD never quite goes back to the way they were before. Yes the physical and mental symptoms appear to go away, but the experience that brought it on remains in the forefront. I always used to say, in my young immature days that PTSD was curtain syndrome, all they had to do was pull themselves together. I know differently now.
Can't speak for the other Services.

Monty77
4th Oct 2006, 17:13
Public apology to all on this thread for typing when pissed. Looking back on what I wrote, it wasn't a tangent, it was inter-galactic. Embarrassing.:ouch: :ouch:

Thanks for not flaming me as I should have been (QFIman). Can't promise it won't happen again.

Soz

QFIhawkman
4th Oct 2006, 19:35
Hey good on you Monty. It takes a man to fess up and apologise.

It's easy to drink and post, I've done it a few times myself. (As is usually evident in some of my own foul mouthed late night beer fuelled postings!)

Anyway, cheers for explaining.

DC10RealMan
4th Oct 2006, 19:49
Just out of interest. The Short Stirling bomber crews operating during the winter 1943-1944 during the Battle of Berlin were encountering casualty rates of 10-20% per raid. They had to complete a first tour of thirty missions before being "rested" and then they had to return for a second tour of twenty missions before being permenantly grounded. If they volunteered for Pathfinder duties their first tour was sixty missions prior to being rested. I know a few chaps who served with Bomber Command and they tell me that they encounted LMF very rarely. They were without doubt the "Bravest of the Brave"

RileyDove
4th Oct 2006, 20:44
I had the opportunity to speak with a Lancaster tail gunner recently. He recalled how before one mission the had been an uneasyness amongst the crew before the mission. They boarded the bomber and managed to get airborne but they were lagging slightly behind the bomber stream. The aircraft was misbehaving and she got slower . Nobody said anything over the i/c - everyone was starting to realise that they would be sitting targets once over Germany.
Thought's of being cast as 'LMF' went through my friend's mind - he didn't want to suggest it however .
The silence was broken by the i/c springing to life

" I think we better turn back" said the skipper - an audible sigh of relief spread amongst the crew .

Glass Half Empty
4th Oct 2006, 21:04
HTB,

I would have thought that the diagnosis of migraine was enough to have hime grounded and sent home. I doubt LMF entered into it.

depends if you knew him or not .....nuff said

mystic_meg
4th Oct 2006, 21:25
We had an individual on LXX Sqn at the start of GW1 who put his hand up and said not for me ta. Airmen Aircrew, he was simply discharged under LMF and was off the Sqn the same day.

Really? Don't recall that one. Maybe you could PM me to refresh my memory?

The Gorilla
4th Oct 2006, 21:46
Mystic

Check your PM

TG

insty66
4th Oct 2006, 23:17
No worries!:ok: :D

Accepted without condition:)

HTB
5th Oct 2006, 07:52
GlassHE/MaxB

GHE - you obviously did know him; Max - the syptoms of migraine came on very rapidly (and presumably disappeared just as quickly once out of theatre). The odd thing is that he never suffered from the condition (or at least didn't complain of it) during peacetime squadron flying, and his coffee consumption was not much different then.