More Merlins?

[RODF3]

Rumours are surfaceing that the RAF have aquired Merlins form the Danish and Portugese, in response to the shortfall of SH. This is a blatent fishing exped, but can anyone add substance? :ugh:

[South Bound]

I can categorically state that it is an official rumour!

There is another one about some Wokkas as well...

[Mr-AEO]

What a jolly good idea!

I often thought that the paintjob on a Danish I01 was better than that of our Mk3's!!

Why did we get the drab olive version and the Danes get the Metallic paint job option at nil cost eh? Looks so much better for pulling chicks.

I bet they even have free sat nav and radios / DAS suites that work. Clever pig breeding blighters, they must really have some well paid CS's doing their procurement.

:}

/If truth be told, Mr AJ of AW (Yeovil) may have 'offered' the aircraft to our Vice Chief, but as you know there is a world of difference between an intial unsolicited offer and delivery of the capability on the ground/

[Tourist]

A good adendum to that rumour is that it is not the RAF, but the RN who will be supplying 13 crews for the putative green JUNGLY Merlins.
But what do I know........................

[teeteringhead]

Wot???

13 Spare crews at a moment's notice from the hard-pressed jungly force ... shurely shome mishtake.........:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Tourist]

Mixed crews I heard from a little bird.
Jungly left hand seat.

[detgnome]

Whilst speaking to a secret personnel base in Gloucestershire last week, something was mentioned about personnel required for an entirely new SH Sqn next year - I wondered what at first, but posts above are clearing the muddied waters!

[junglyking]

More Pingalies?

I love it when a Sunday lunchtime rumour becomes fact on PPrune by Tuesday evening....

[JagRigger]

Are there no Sea Kings / Commandos in storage or reserve if sufficient crews can be found?

[junglyking]

No HC Mk4's - why else would the IPT strip out and partial DAS fit 5 HAS Mk6 to Mk6(Commando Role) standard to cover the shortage during the avionics upgrade?

There are a load more HAS Mk6 ASW paid off in 2003 or so in storage... Check the previous thread on Mk6(CR) for that discussion - time to convert/cost/Vmax etc. There's a whole lot that could be done to them, but they are still 18-30 odd years old...

Spare Junglies? I'll check the bottom drawer.... There's a few in Telic not airborne at the moment...

[Without Care]

Saw what you did there Detgnome - clever and prophetic.

WC

[RODF3]

Whilst speaking to a secret personnel base in Gloucestershire last week, something was mentioned about personnel required for an entirely new SH Sqn next year
Lets hope if true, the 72 Sqn number can be liberated, and put back to helos where it should be!
Anyone from 28 (AC) Sqn available to comment on the additional ac rumour?:confused:

[bandit]

If these aircraft were to be partly manned by ASW crews who would be looking at doing the training? (That is, assuming that any is planned, rather than OJT).

[Mr-AEO]

Pfft!

Training???! Whatever next? you'll want spares and maintainers to support them next!

You lot are never happy.:E

Anyway's just use a Chinny Mk3 can't you?:}

[Tourist]

Pingers are already fully trained in secondary roles.

[PTT]

Pingers are already fully trained in secondary roles.
There are big differences between "trained", "current" and "competent".

[Tourist]

as jungly instrument flying proves................

[ZH875]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/HGill1Cropped3.jpg

45 cylinders, 90 spark plugs, 162 valves and just short of 6000hp lined up on the disused runway at Carlisle Airport.

[junglyking]

Gosh - they've got that Lancaster cloaking device working at last....;)

[Cpt_Pugwash]

Pedant mode on...

Isn't the closest unit a Griffon? ( contra-prop)

And the furthest one is a radial??

Pedant mode off..:)

[Wader2]

Pedant mode on...

Isn't the closest unit a Griffon? ( contra-prop)

And the furthest one is a radial??

Pedant mode off..:)

Interesting prop blades too. Wonder what they are set up for?

[airborne_artist]

These lads are engine nuts - the props are there to provide resistance to the crank and stop over revving I guess. ISTR that they are somewhere in the NW - Lancashire/Cumbria area.

Must sound just great, but I wouldn't want their fuel bill...., still I bet their wives don't have to wait long for the washing to dry :E

[MReyn24050]

Further information here:-
http://members.lycos.co.uk/pwgrieve/

[RODF3]

Any chance of getting back to the point of the thread? or shall I start one for random comments?

[Mr-AEO]

No chance m8. Not round 'ere.

Perhaps you could say why/where you heard this guff from in the first place?

[airborne_artist]

Mr-AEO

Can I ask where you heard that it's guff? My sources are impeccable, and confirm the orig. rumour 100%.

Expect it to be announced in about .... (now that would be telling too much :E )

[junglyking]

It's very easy to confirm it as a rumour - I've heard it from 3 separate sources/communities away from PPrune - therefore I can confirm it as a rumour - slightly different to it actually being true. Professional Pilot's Fully confirmed truth network - I think not...?

[Melchett01]

Yes, I can confirm that it is true. Well it is true that it is rumoured that the MOD are looking at procuring a handfull of new cabs (sorry, couldn't resist - have just been listening to a similar comment by Sir Humphrey in Yes Minister :p )

Anyway, from talking to people in the know, I too have heard similar stories from various, usually reliable sources. And if what Mr AEO says is true, then logic would dictate that there is only one other place for them to end up - other than TELIC and being in pieces all over the hangar floor at Yeovilton!

[High_lander]

Well, its the strongest rumor I've heard.

[the funky munky]

My mole at wastelands whispered in my shell like the other day that the MoD may siphon Danish 101's from the production line. Not sure what the Danes think about his but apparently the RMs were drooling more at that thought than at 2 egg n bacon banjos mmmmm!.

This plus a tlae a few weeks back about a UOR for Mk 1 DAS suites and it seems someone in JHC wahts more Green Plastic pigs to play with.

[South Bound]

JHC wants more cabs in the sky, preference would be for wokkas but restrictions from Government over spending the extra funding is likely to mean a UK-solution, leading to only one choice, Merlin.

[Mr-AEO]

I don't debate that the idea is sound, and of course WHL want this to be the way ahead. But sat against a backdrop of FRC work looking at filling the Interim ML (of which Danish Merlins are not an option, unless they intend leasing them) and pressure from EC to give us Super Puma's - it just seems an 'Option' at the moment.

Plus, RAF don't acquire Helo's anyway. /semantics i know/

But like I said before, I like the idea because the Danish cabs have a great metallic paint job!:ok:

[Navaleye]

The one of tee back seem to have taught itself how to a radial engine.

[Hueymeister]

Rumour has it that 230 will disband, become a permanently detached flight from 33 and the Navy will stand up 825 NAS with a mixture of Navy and RAF SH guys flying the procured Merlins. Surely it would be easier just to add an additional flight to 28 (AC) Sqn, rather than stand a new Sqn up in this time of financial belt-tightening?

Wouldn't want to be a Merlin qualified guy in a rest tour at the mo.....the phone could be ringing soon....

[Wader2]

Des the magician said yesterday:

Importantly, General Richards judges he has the forces to maintain the relatively stable security situation that now exists. But I will continue to push for his requirements to be met, in full, as a matter of urgency.

Is there a contradiction here?

In Helmand, the UK Task Force also faces challenges . . . We are rebalancing our forces, taking advantage of the steady improvement in the Afghan army and police to concentrate our forces on the central area surrounding the provincial capital Lashkar Gah. . . .

Back in the UK, the main challenge – for me, . . . is to give our troops the resources they need to get the job done. This is a relentless task, but we are rising to it. We have now almost completely deployed the reinforcements . . . that includes: 2 more Chinook helicopters, and more flying hours for helicopters across the fleet; more capacity to train the Afghan National Army; engineers to take forward development; and more infantry.

Is thgat 2 more Chinooks from yesterday or from 10 Jul?

On 24 July I announced a new package for protected vehicles for both Afghanistan and Iraq, including 100 new Mastiff and 100 additional Vector, funded by new money from the Treasury.

And?

I believe we have shown we can be responsive to the requests of commanders and we will continue to be so.

Are, so they have the kit now?

In Afghanistan, we have to tackle the South and the East if we are to secure what has already been achieved in the rest of the country.
In Iraq, we have to support the Iraqi government, and their army and police

We will do all of these things – we cannot afford not to.

I am sure the House will join me in paying tribute to them again today.

How many tributes is a pint of beer?

[Archimedes]

Seems that the cunning plan may involve using Hip and Halo from a PMC, which would be interesting....

Daily Torygraph report (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=KG113FPWDJVEBQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2006/10/11/uhelicopter.xml)

I note that the total number of Merlins on offer from Denmark is allegedly six.

[High_lander]

There's been one of the jobbies in and out of WHL for the last three days.

Nice and shiny.

Saw it as I went to get me lunch.

[junglyking]

Perhaps that means the Merlin idea is nothing more than AW's answer to Eurocopter's unsolicited Cougar bid to JHC - you can't blame them for trying to make it a more even playing field, even if they had previously been told they were not allowed to make unsolicited bids, can you?

[Tequila Sunrise]

From the Daily Torygraph report (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=KG113FPWDJVEBQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2006/10/11/uhelicopter.xml) ...


“doing everything we can” to bring into service eight special forces Chinook helicopters that have never been flown after they were certified unusable following mechanical changes made by engineers.
So there's another eight S/F Chinooks then?? :confused:

Coz they surely can't mean the HC3's can they?? :hmm:

I'd somehow got the impression that the reason that the HC3's hadn't flown was because of a bit of a procurement/requirements/software-validation c:mad:k-up.

If they DO mean the HC3's then that's a pretty nifty ' Hey, let's make it sound as if some tech boffins foolishly buggered 'em up when no-one was looking ' sort of move that someone's pulled there! :rolleyes: :ugh:

Cheers,
TS

[airborne_artist]

Found this on a Rotorheads thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=248444).

MoD forced to hire civilian helicopters in Afghanistan

By Francis Elliott and Raymond Whitaker
Published: 15 October 2006

Britain is so short of helicopters in Afghanistan that military chiefs are being forced to scour the world for civilian aircraft to support its troops after the US rejected a plea to help plug the shortfall.

An ageing fleet of just eight Chinooks is working around the clock to supply and reinforce soldiers in remote outposts facing waves of Taliban attacks. The only Chinook in the Falklands was taken away for use in the campaign.

The revelations come in the wake of the outburst by General Sir Richard Dannatt, the army chief, against the Government's military strategy last week.

The Independent on Sunday can also reveal that reconnaissance and intelligence missions in Afghanistan are being affected by the lack of smaller and more flexible helicopters. But senior military officials said that when UK commanders asked for temporary deployment of US helicopters in Afghanistan, they were told there were none to spare.

Instead, the MoD has been forced to seek out commercial operators for non-combat operations, to free more military craft for use at the front line. So urgent is the need that Britain is understood to be asking other nations that have ordered Merlin helicopters from Westland to allow the MoD to requisition them.

Just last weekend Tony Blair said: "If the commanders on the ground want more equipment, armoured vehicles for example, more helicopters, that will be provided. Whatever package they want we will do."
...

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

Well, as we're the guys flying the mighty grey Merlin Mk 1, and therefore in the know, we can confirm the following rumours are in fact true:
1. :mad:
2. :mad:
3. ...and out of those, :mad: are going to :mad: very soon.
bugger. got one of those new fangled "anti-rumour" MoD computer keyboards, so it won't let me tell you about :mad: or even :mad: .
bugger again!!
VFTC

[RODF3]

Latest news from just behind the front. Six Danish Merlins have been diverted to the RAF. The first manufacturers course for crew starts in Jan 07, with further crews to be available in Mar 07. No real news as to sqn numbering or whether they will be an extra flight on 28. The aircraft have considerable differences from the HC3s (they are more like the Merlin we should have).

[Mr-AEO]

Now all we need is some top brass to sign the approval:}

[Could be the last?]

and the crews to fly them......:ugh:

[nutmeg]

Don't worry CBL you are on the top of the list to come across and take part in the new adventure. Will be interesting to see if the new Merlin Sqn boss wants to set up the Sqn properly and include a Crewman Leader like proper SH Sqns have/had......................



Or B........................

If the new Sqn boss is reading this, please take advice from those in the know.

[Could be the last?]

It would be nice to reverse the trend.......

[Jackonicko]

RODF3, Nutmeg, Mr AEO, Chillwinston,

Please check your PMs.

[Compressorstall]

Can anyone with any info on the 'new' Merlins or Sqn plans PM me?:)

[SamCaine]

100% RAF? You 100% sure? :hmm:

[Merlin the Happy Pig]

Bighead - having just got my other half back from his last escapade to a giant sandpit, I would be interested to know what you know as he is far too keen. Would be grateful to know what you know via PM.

Before you ask, my other half is in the dark at the moment as well.

MTHP

[airborne_artist]

brandnew - bear in mind that not only is there an -aq and an -an that need RW assets, but there will soon be an -ur as well, although probably for a short and pre-defined period.

[tabloz]

Think it's going to be joint RAF/RN sqn at benson. 78 sqn was menioned. Flying Mk3As from the Danes.

[Jackonicko]

-ur????

Am I being VERY dense?



And why did Mr Harding in the DTel say:

"The MoD is also considering an offer from the Danish military to purchase six Merlin helicopters which its military are said not to want because of the high maintenance costs, defence sources revealed."

I know that some Merlin operators are peeved with the spares shortages, and that some are having problems with aircraft availability as a result, but I'd thought that the Danes liked their Merlins.

[Tourist]

The Danes problem is I believe a bit like the AAC Apache.
Lots of aircraft but not enough people trained to fly them, so getting rid of a few for a while probably looks like a good deal to them for the moment until they sort out their pipeline.

[Jackonicko]

That has more of a ring of truth. Thanks, T

http://forsvaret.dk/NR/rdonlyres/C20C25B2-70B2-4483-8046-828D71834EE4/23797/EH101grafiktroppe.jpg

Wonder what the folk singing position is for?

(The Fol-de-rol er....)

[Could be the last?]

16 Seats..... So what is the differnce between this and the Super Puma?

a. Cost

b. Cost

c. Cost........:ok:

[Compressorstall]

It's still more new helicopters...how many Super Pumas do we operate now??:ugh:

[Jackonicko]

Do you KNOW the cost of the Danish TTTs?
Do you KNOW the price offered in EADS' unsolicited bid?

I suspect the answer to your question is:

Cost
Commonality
Capability
Survivability
Noise signature
Performance

And I suspect that the interior can quickly be reconfigured to carry as many troops as the HC3s.

[Pilot Pacifier]

And I suspect that the interior can quickly be reconfigured to carry as many troops as the HC3s.
I suspect you are right, but only if you want to fly them a short distance! Just how far will the Mk3's go? Considering the Mk2 has approx 2.45hr flight time with a full load of troops and the Mk3's have double that amount of fuel with no off set of payload v fuel...
The Mk3's, such a shame, such a waste to just be sitting there at Boscombe...

[Compressorstall]

I think he meant the Merlin HC 3!

[Pilot Pacifier]

Doh...

Taxi for one...:O

[SamCaine]

The clue's probably in the thread title :rolleyes:

[Squirrel 41]

Jacko,

I suspect that the "-ur" could be Darf"-ur"... and about time too! Even the Americans agree that there is genocide going on. And politically would be very good if we can be seen to be protecting innocent Muslim civilians from a genocidal "Muslim" government.

S41

[movadinkampa747]

Jacko,
I suspect that the "-ur" could be Darf"-ur"... and about time too! Even the Americans agree that there is genocide going on. And politically would be very good if we can be seen to be protecting innocent Muslim civilians from a genocidal "Muslim" government.
S41

But why should they when many Muslims who are so eager to condemn the U.S. or Israel for actions taken against Muslim peoples are silent about what Muslims themselves may do in the name of Islam. If the Muslims can't be persuaded to speak up against the genocide in Darfur because the victims are human beings, perhaps they will speak up when they realise that the victims are Muslims.

[Squirrel 41]

Mov747

This is precisely why we should do it - AFAIK one of the few sensible things that GW Bush, Esq. of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, DC has said since 11/9/01 is that the ideological battle between the West and Bin Laden's crew is that we disagree on the form of society.

The (modern liberal) west believes that there are certain universal values underpinning human decency - of which stopping genocide is one.:D

OTOH, Bin Laden believes that the best human society ever was in the Arabian desert in the 7th Century, and that we should return to that immediately if not sooner, slaughtering all who don't agree. :=

And protecting those who their co-religionists massacre would be morally right anyway - as was using Hercs to help in the Ethiopian famine, for example - and it's also great in policy terms by reaching out to the moderate Islamic world who see an entirely one-sided US / Western policy on Israel / Palestine and assuming that we're all rabidly anti-Islam.

See you in Dafur!!

S41

[Could be the last?]

Comp,

That is the point, it is/was one of the options to replace the ageing Puma and Seaking fleet. With the amount of money that is being banded around, surely now is the time to make the decision for the new long-term ac?:confused:

[Compressorstall]

CTBTL

There may be a fair bit of money sloshing round, but to buy helicopters long-term requires a planned allocation of funds to cover the procurement period, this will be from an emergency pot of cash from under Gordon's bed (or Comd JHC's) to buy something quickly, this is just one finger going into the leaking dyke (cue some worrying banter about a less than PC topic).

The Merlins are in the showroom and ready to drive away, if there were loads of Chinooks (please don't restart yet more 'If we had the Chinook Mk3...'), then we would probably be buying them. The other types are a bit of a non-starter as they are not available and we are adding to a current inventory.

[Could be the last?]

Comp,

I don't think they are fresh off the production line........ One previous owner!

The biggest draw back of the current ac is the lack of spares. Seems pretty pointless buying more airframes when there aren't the spares to fix the current ones.

I am sure the Through Life Cost (TLC) of standing up a Super Puma/Cougar 2 fleet would be comparible with the entire EHI01 Fleet. The big difference being the spares support and the total number of airframes; ultimately, this boils down to value for money.

It will be a shame if they arrive and are canibilized for spares, much the same as the Mk3s. But hey:ugh:

[k3k3]

That has more of a ring of truth. Thanks, T
http://forsvaret.dk/NR/rdonlyres/C20C25B2-70B2-4483-8046-828D71834EE4/23797/EH101grafiktroppe.jpg
Wonder what the folk singing position is for?
(The Fol-de-rol er....)


It's where they keep the song books, Foldereoler means Publication Shelves, as in A.P.'s.

I hear on a Danish grapevine of Danish pilots getting ops training with the RAF as part of the deal.

[Jackonicko]

You rotten killjoy bug.ger.

You'll be saying that the Skinner til fast is nothing to do with stand up comics, or that the Stige isn't where Stig sits.

Bas.tard.

[vecvechookattack]

I wonder why the Danes wanted 6 Merlin? What were they planning to do with them? Maybe this is a blessing in disguise for them....having realised that they had been sold a kipper they quickly off loaded them to some other mug.

[Jackonicko]

The Danes bought 14 Merlin, eight SAR cabs and six tactical transports.

We're getting the tactical transports - but Denmark will then replace them.

This is handy for them, because like the AAC were with the AH-64, the Danes are short of people to fly the cabs at the mo.

The Portugese were also asked for four, and they said no.

The HM.Mk 1 may or may not have been a 'kipper' - but if it was, then surely that's down to a Cold War role and LM's mission system, since most users seem pretty enthusiastic about the cab as a support helicopter.

And has it ever lost a competition?

[BEagle]

Whoever 'Drejestol til besætning' is, he seems a bit of a Billy no-mates!

[Mr-AEO]

Apart from some internal schematics in Danish - which are mighty humorous! Could someone in the Technical know please lay out some of the fundamental differences between the RAF Mk3 and the Danish version - shouldn't be a state secret should it?:}

[Jackonicko]

All Danish Merlins have an advanced NVG-compatible EFIS cockpit with six ruggedised flat panel, 6.3-by-6.3-inch active matrix liquid crystal displays (AMLCDs) instead of the cathode ray tube displays in the earlier variants. They also have a nose-mounted FLIR Systems Star SAFIRE II FLIR, a laser obstacle avoidance system and a Telephonics RDR-1600 multi-mode search and weather radar. The radar display can be presented on any of the cockpit IDUs. They are much more comprehensively equipped than the RAF's existing HC.Mk 3s, which look pretty austere by comparison.

I have not found any details of the Danish DASS fit.

[Jackonicko]

Someone will doubtless point out who I've missed, but I believe that the UK, Japanese, Danish, and Portugese aircraft are those with RTMs, and that Italy, Canada, and the planned US version use the GE 'donk'.

The Danish engines are designated RTM 322-02/8 (the same as the RAF engine designation, according to Jane's, so massive doses of salt required) with a T-O rating of 1,670 kW (2,240 shp), but I understand that they may have a different DECU.

However, it appears that engine commonality between RAF/RDAF may be greater than between RAF/RN engines.

[Compressorstall]

They also have EGPWS, SATCOM and DIRCM and a 'user specific EW suite'...

[requiem1973]

I think you will find the aircraft that are going to be supllied from the Danes are the SAR aircraft already in country . They are going to be flown back and stripped of all Danish equipment and refitted to whatever the RAF ask . All this by May of next year :ugh: whilst still trying to achive VH-71 contract.The Merlins in Denamark need a lot of change orders done to them whereas the aircraft at Yeovil are pretty well uptogether , the Danes aint silly on this one. Also I think they made a lot of money on this sale back to the UK . Providing the rumours are true :mad:

[BEagle]

"They are going to be flown back and stripped of all Danish equipment and refitted to whatever the RAF ask....."

So that'll be Eureka 7 and a 10-channel VHF set then.....

[High_lander]

Well the ones I've seen flying in and out of WHL today and yesterday seemed like the utility ones.

Saw a couple of pilots getting lunch in the canteen, with their cab parked outside.

________

Any way, I thought the reason we got them was that we'd buy them, as we need SH rather quickly, and the Danes can pay at a later date.

Or is this just a rumour?

[late developer]

Whoever 'Drejestol til besætning' is, he seems a bit of a Billy no-mates!Please please forgive the intrusion but I have smiled so much reading this thread (you guys make me feel a whole lot more optimistic than some in the civvie section!).
'Drehestol til besætning' may or may not have no-mates but I can confirm he or she can in fact choose to talk to you if he or she wants to cos that one swivels:p
And the folk-singer station is not just a Publication shelf/bookcase but a folding publication shelf/bookcase so you can dispense with the books as necessary to accommodate any alternative inflight entertainment.
One thing to remember though ... the Danes are sticklers for good design so for Pete's sake don't let them strip out the Hans Grohe plumbing before they deliver! It's streets ahead of Armitage Shanks!

[Mr-AEO]

JA - It'll be GARP. I'm sure that they are thinking of this issue, and learning the lessons from the Mk3's.....;)

[Jackonicko]

GAR? GARP? Explain please, chaps.

[Jackonicko]

Requiem,

I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you stand up your claim that the RAF will be getting the SAR aircraft?

I can see three powerful indicators that it is otherwise:

1) The number being discussed is six.

2) There are six TTTs, only one of which (DEN 01, first off the line and the Danish trials aircraft) has been delivered (last Friday).

There are eight SAR cabs (DEN 02-09).

3) Westland say that it's the TTTs.

Unless you KNOW different, of course.

[the funky munky]

The whisper I hear from wastelands is that it is the TTH 101s with a lot of functionality inhibited i.e. no worse than the HC 3 why do you think they are being called the Mk 3A.

[phil gollin]

.......... as we need SH rather quickly .........




The abbreviation gets used a lot, but what does "SH" stand for ?

[Almost_done]

SH = Support Helicopters

[Mr-AEO]

GARP = Generic Aircraft Release Process. Used to provide Release To Service (RTS) for the Melin HC Mk3, although the Merlin HM Mk1 is RTS'd under Military Aircraft Release (MAR).

They look and work quite differently; perhaps someone else can explain exactly how because I'll make a mess of it!:bored:

[Jackonicko]

It would be interesting to have an explanation of that, certainly.

As to TTT or SAR, I'll add a 4) to the list of evidence in favour of the TTT.

4) On October 12, the Danish Defence Minsiter, Mr. Søren Gade, responded to a question from one of his colleagues in the Danish Parliament, saying that:

- He had ordered the Danish Defence Command to evaluate the British request for taking over some of the Danish Merlin airframes due to serious lack of British helicopters for operations abroad
- This would only concern the TTT variant and not the SAR variant
- Denmark must receive replacement TTT airframes as soon as possible
- The only consequences for Denmark of such an arrangement would be a postponement of the implementation of the TTT variant in the Danish Air Force
- The implementation of the SAR variant in the Danish Air Force would continue unaffected

I'd call that conclusive.

Nor do I believe that there will be any inhibiting of core capabilities/functionalities, which is why type conversion to these aircraft will be required even for existing HC3 aircrew.

Hats off to the Sun for getting the phrase "Danes saving our bacon" into their Monday story, but with the criticism that they dropped the ball by failing to use the term "Big Chopper".

[airborne_artist]

And yet it would have been so easy: "Danes' big choppers save our bacon"

[Jackonicko]

Nice! Whatever you're doing, you're wasted in a cockpit, AA.

But will it be 78 Squadron 'Pornstars' or 230 Squadron 'Baconeers'?

[Ed Winchester]

Why would it be 230 anything? Last time I checked, 230 Sqn was already an operational front-line SH Sqn supporting overseas operations.......

[ORAC]

This time, it´s the squeal thing...... :cool:

[Archimedes]

Ed, I suspect that JN was picking up on the previous suggestion/rumour that what is currently 230 would become a detatched flight of 33, with the numberplate transferring to the new Merlin unit.

Rumour control to date has the possible numberplate as being 78, 230 and 825. Any more bidders?

[MaroonMan4]

Being a bit thick here (and I have read the whole of the thread!), but lets just confirm that these new Merlins (of whatever spec) will be flown only by RAF crews conducting an accelerated training programme at Benson?

Is this purely to alleviate the issues raised on Ops and in the NAO report and not the SABR/FASH/FRC (whatever we are calling it this month)? I know that they are all linked but does this mean that the Sea King drivers will have to continue with that airframe for many years to come?

Will it at least free up the ageing Sea King to atleast return to sea in its designed role (ideally WAFUs do the Amphib sea stuff and Crabs do the Land stuff - as we know, not always the case - but ideally!).

However, I do feel a bit of sadness for the Sea King guys that have been waiting and waiting and waiting for something a bit more capable - and now they see us having another slice of the BH/SH funding pie.

Have read this right or is there something that I am missing?

[toddbabe]

Watch out if you are a winchman on SAR, apparently they are trawling the fleet for crewmen to man the new helo's.
Sar winchmen already been told a few will be retraining!!

[tucumseh]

Jackonicko

(Extract from AP3456)

Generic Aircraft Release Process

With effect from 1 November 2004, the management of release for all new
aircraft is in accordance with the Generic Aircraft Release Process (GARP) (see JSP 553, Annex J, Appendix 3). Most of the existing aircraft projects retain their traditional aircraft release management procedures (and are now referred to as 'legacy'aircraft). However, legacy projects will, in due course, convert to GARP documentation.

The main changes introduced by GARP include the following:
a. There is no MA Release document.
b. The Safety Case and Aircraft Document Set reflect the 'as flown'
aircraft configuration.
c. When the aircraft is in service, the Safety Case will be 'owned' by the Release to Service Authority (RTSA).
d. Amendments to the Release to Service document are agreed jointly between the Integrated Project Team (IPT) and the RTSA.
e. Service Deviations will not apply under this process. RTS information which has not been derived from a fully substantiated Safety Case is termed a "Clearance with Limited Evidence" (CLE) and is recorded in Part F of the RTS.


Hope this helps.


Each will have his or her own take on this. I twitch at the “as flown” bit, when considered against various benchmark rulings from within MoD. To me, this is related to the “test and declare” status afforded some projects, whereby the trials a/c lacks kit (often Service Engineered Mods), kit does not meet its spec or where kit hasn’t been integrated properly; so the aircraft does not conform to, and cannot be assessed against, the Whole Aircraft Specification (not that many have one that’s current). In other words, it is common for the MAR build standard to be wholly unrepresentative of that actually needed to fulfil the operational role. It is up to the IPT to ensure that all subsequent build standards, of all aircraft in the fleet, can be traced back to the MAR aircraft. This is configuration control, the importance of which is often ignored. Very few aircraft types have such a robust audit trail. More often than not, an aircraft will be deemed safe upon acceptance off-contract (notwithstanding CDP’s ruling that this is not actually necessary, which rather negates the reason for having a contract) but it is quite a different thing to MAINTAIN that safety throughout its life. Again, the latter is often forgotten about, and certainly no longer understood or practiced by many in DPA.

[tucumseh]

Maroon Man

“However, I do feel a bit of sadness for the Sea King guys that have been waiting and waiting and waiting for something a bit more capable - and now they see us having another slice of the BH/SH funding pie”.


When this question comes up I always recall that the RN “EHI 01” (now Merlin Mk1) was originally planned to have two roles. Primary was ASW, Secondary was “Commando”. That is, to augment what at the time where recently procured Sea King HC Mk4s. Reversion to this Secondary role would have been lengthy, involving removal of the sonics kit (at least) and insertion of seats; also, the Commando variant was to have an augmented secure comms capability. The issue became academic when the numbers were slashed (from over 100). I think the radar was to be retained (the plan was conceived before anyone actually saw the avionics suite put together) as at the time the Mk4s were planned to be fitted with ex-Mk2 radars (very similar to Mk3s). This latter plan remained current for many years (well into the 90s), with the kit held in storage awaiting funding. In the end, DNO gave up on it for good reasons which I can’t mention.

[Shackman]

There's only one SH Numberplate really deserving bringing back into the fold - 72.

[Jackonicko]

So why not just GARP the Chinook HC3s.....?

Now where did I put that coat?

[Without Care]

Maroon,

The answers to your direct and indirect questions are:

No, no, yes, no, yes, no, no and plenty.

Hope this helps.

WC

[Almost_done]

There's only one SH Numberplate really deserving bringing back into the fold - 72.
I bet they bring back 60.

Oh well there was all confused as to the demise of the Wessex Sqn at Benson then.

[Paul McCacksdown]

Shurely some mishtake?? Sixty is alive and well in Shropshire. 90th Anniversary earlier this year.:ok:

[airborne_artist]

Anyway - here's the Sqn T-shirt

http://www.retroduck.com/images/products/07/07-0285r.jpg

[The Helpful Stacker]

There's only one SH Numberplate really deserving bringing back into the fold - 72.

Perhaps the Uruguayan Air Force could be tempted to sell back the Wessex's to re-equip 72 ;) .

The best aircraft to have to refuel on a cold night as the front point had a conveniently placed heater.

[Jackonicko]

Airborne Artist,

I thought you had a future with a Tabloid newspaper.

I now realise I'm addressing the next editor of Viz.....

Sir!

[requiem1973]

Jackonicko ,
I take you point , i agree that it makes more sense for the TTT aircraft to be used . I was just going by what we have been hearing on the shop floor recently , but then again we only build the aircraft and are the last to be told anything :ugh: Still whatever aircraft it is lets hope it is of help to the guys that need it in the field of operations and it will keep me in overtime for a while longer :ok: Highlander , you mean to say you have seen the Danes up our canteen , brave bunch the Danes . The only place I ever see them is outside Westland Road smoking themselves silly :)

[TheWizard]

Think it's going to be joint RAF/RN sqn at benson. 78 sqn was menioned. Flying Mk3As from the Danes.
Try 10 Sqn :)

[GlosMikeP]

Jackonicko

(Extract from AP3456)

Generic Aircraft Release Process

With effect from 1 November 2004, the management of release for all new
aircraft is in accordance with the Generic Aircraft Release Process (GARP) (see JSP 553, Annex J, Appendix 3). Most of the existing aircraft projects retain their traditional aircraft release management procedures (and are now referred to as 'legacy'aircraft). However, legacy projects will, in due course, convert to GARP documentation.

The main changes introduced by GARP include the following:
a. There is no MA Release document.
b. The Safety Case and Aircraft Document Set reflect the 'as flown'
aircraft configuration.
c. When the aircraft is in service, the Safety Case will be 'owned' by the Release to Service Authority (RTSA).
d. Amendments to the Release to Service document are agreed jointly between the Integrated Project Team (IPT) and the RTSA.
e. Service Deviations will not apply under this process. RTS information which has not been derived from a fully substantiated Safety Case is termed a "Clearance with Limited Evidence" (CLE) and is recorded in Part F of the RTS.


Hope this helps.


Each will have his or her own take on this. I twitch at the “as flown” bit, when considered against various benchmark rulings from within MoD. To me, this is related to the “test and declare” status afforded some projects, whereby the trials a/c lacks kit (often Service Engineered Mods), kit does not meet its spec or where kit hasn’t been integrated properly; so the aircraft does not conform to, and cannot be assessed against, the Whole Aircraft Specification (not that many have one that’s current). In other words, it is common for the MAR build standard to be wholly unrepresentative of that actually needed to fulfil the operational role. It is up to the IPT to ensure that all subsequent build standards, of all aircraft in the fleet, can be traced back to the MAR aircraft. This is configuration control, the importance of which is often ignored. Very few aircraft types have such a robust audit trail. More often than not, an aircraft will be deemed safe upon acceptance off-contract (notwithstanding CDP’s ruling that this is not actually necessary, which rather negates the reason for having a contract) but it is quite a different thing to MAINTAIN that safety throughout its life. Again, the latter is often forgotten about, and certainly no longer understood or practiced by many in DPA.

This is absolutely astonishing. MAR was difficult enough but this.....! This will make it nigh on impossible to get a full clearance for an aircraft and, as far as I can tell, is way OTT compared to civil clearances through BCARs/FARs/JARs. Whoever invented it needs avoiding action.

[High_lander]

:ok: Highlander...brave bunch the Danes...:)


Agreed.:}:}

But here's not the place to discuss WHL canteens.

[MReyn24050]

Jackonicko
(Extract from AP3456)
Generic Aircraft Release Process
With effect from 1 November 2004, the management of release for all new
aircraft is in accordance with the Generic Aircraft Release Process (GARP) (see JSP 553, Annex J, Appendix 3). Most of the existing aircraft projects retain their traditional aircraft release management procedures (and are now referred to as 'legacy'aircraft). However, legacy projects will, in due course, convert to GARP documentation.

Be interesting to see if these aircraft will be considered as an existing aircraft project. If not I have sympathy for all involved as they will then have to contend with the management of the existing MARs for the Merlin Mk 1 and the Mk 3 and then the management of the Mk 3As release in accordance with this new GARP and how many different people will that involve? Well life is never simple.:)

[Gainesy]

Requiem, could you take a look at my garage door please? The uppy-downy thing is knackered.:)

[Jackonicko]

Cheap, Gainesy. Cheap.

But I laughed.

[electric.sheep]

Also from the Sun:

"Its three engines give enhanced reliability and the extra power means it can operate in the hot and high conditions of Afghanistan, where other choppers run out of steam."

Glad we're buying all this capability, sorry, forgot it was the Sun I was reading. :=

[Saint Evil]

Get the badge away from The fixed wing boys at Linton and get 72 back into the rotary world.

Never served on 72 but did take great delight when on JOCC watching some diverted Linton aircrew from 72 Sqn berating a Nav who claimed to have been on 72. The arguement went along the lines of "you're not a pilot thus you can't have served on 72" to which the response came - "I served on 72 when it was an operational sqn not put aside to train nerks(not the real word but a substitute - there may be kids reading) now do me a favour and f*** off before I plant you" or at least words to that effect.

[Could be the last?]

MMMmmmm

Merlins or SuperPumas..........:ok:

[ralphmalph]

Bothered!.............can we please have more products from Westlands!

CEO Augusta Westlands

[Compressorstall]

So does anyone have any concrete information on the new Sqn??:hmm:

[Spanish Waltzer]

If the Royal Navy is providing aircrew for this venture, will they look to retrain Sea King Commando, ie experienced SH people, onto the new helo or will they look to move Merlin Mk1 (Anti Submarine Warfare) crews and train them in SH roles and NVG? I hear that there are some Merlin Mk1s playing at SH stuff on exercise in Sierra Leone at the moment....coincidence?

Will the final crews be mixed service or kept single service & what would the role of the RN observer be without a radar to play with........doorgunner?

[Green Sabre]

:confused: First post.....No one is talking about this in the Engineers Forum, hence my boldness to go into the unknown and post in the Aircrew one!!!

I have been approached to provide Eng Support for the proposed new Merlins at Benson. Like everyone else I am waiting for some concrete nod as to whether this is really going to happen and when.

What is the proposed Sqn setup? Are the Engineers going to be RN or RAF???

If anyone has something other than speculation then please PM. :ok:

Safe as houses :ugh: Green Sabre - currently!

[workedover]

[from a good source] At least one sar winchman has been sent to benson with less than 2 weeks notice and another sar pilot has also gone early. does anyone know any other specifics on who will be flying these new aircraft?

[Without Care]

I gather both SAR people are happy with their future employment prospects - tentative as they are.

WC

[snakepit]

I gather both SAR people are happy with their future employment prospects - tentative as they are.

WC

I guess that would depend on whether you want to be a civi in 2012 flying on a brand new chopper for more money, or stay in the Air Farce and get shot at whilst being "utterly, utterly useless".

You aint seen me right

[Without Care]

Snake P,

Apologies, I must have been mistaken.

WC

Of course, they are not exempt from becoming well-paid civvies in 2012.

[Stitchbitch]

A :mad: source mentioned that the slightly 'diffrent coloured' Merlins are arriving at the oxfordian cabrank and that 'they' may become a 'tiger' sqn...:ok:
Talking of the 'other' Merlin Sqn, has anyone won the plasma screen T.V. yet?:}

[NURSE]

wouldn't the UKDF be better of just ordering a load more merlins and replacing Puma and Sea King in transport/SAR role

[Jackonicko]

Of course, but how do you pay for it?

2/3 of the Future Rotorcraft Capability Requirement funding has gone on 70 or so Future Lynx (roughly 40 Army, 30 Navy) to replace existing Lynxes and on the Merlin CSP.

You might say that when the main shortfall (so starkly outlined by the NAO) is battlefield lift, spending 2/3 of the available budget on attack, strike and ISTAR is a puzzling prioritisation, and I'd have to agree.

70 folding tailed Merlins replacing the SK4, Puma, and SK6(CR) would solve the lift (and amphibious lift) shortfalls at a stroke, but would cost £1.5 - £2 Bn.

[PTT]

wouldn't the UKDF be better of just ordering a load more merlins and replacing Puma and Sea King in transport/SAR role
No. The Merlin is too big and can't physically get into places where SK/Pu can. It's also got a much larger downwash problem - an issue for urban ops. We need a mixture of large and medium lift platforms like, for example, a CH-47/EC725 mix...

[JNo]

Of course, but how do you pay for it?

This is the biggest question, as the Future Rotary Budget is pretty much spent up for the next 6 or so years getting the FLynx and the OSD for the Puma being 2010/2012 (depending on the day of the week) how do you cope? Read in Janes Weekly about the MoD putting a request for tender out for 20 or so "Puma sized' frames for 2010-2020 on a PFI. This would obvioulsy be more costly overall but would enable the MOD to put them into service without a big blob of money at the start and spread the cost over the years.

No. The Merlin is too big and can't physically get into places where SK/Pu can. It's also got a much larger downwash problem - an issue for urban ops.

This is very true, physical size/weight/downwash is a big issue - though transportation speed (transport touchdown to helo takeoff) is where the Puma really wins over other frames.

[RODF3]

This is very true, physical size/weight/downwash is a big issue - though transportation speed (transport touchdown to helo takeoff) is where the Puma really wins over other frames.[/QUOTE]


I think you will find the Merlin is as quick, if not quicker, than the puma, and it can slow down faster. Also with greater fuel capacity it does not need to waste 15 mins refuelling every 1.30.

[Tourist]

Merlin is no bigger than a SK as far as footprint goes, just a lot heavier.
Much shorter blades, hence the downwash.

[PTT]

I think you will find the Merlin is as quick, if not quicker, than the puma, and it can slow down faster. Also with greater fuel capacity it does not need to waste 15 mins refuelling every 1.30.

It's not faster than the Puma, but is comparible in speed (speaking first hand). Upgrade the Puma with engines with anticipators (heresy!) and sponson/fifth fuel tanks and it'll stop at least as quickly and have a decent endurance too. Much cheaper than a whole new fleet of Merlins, and with trained crews ready to go it'll be online sooner! You can also fit a couple of Pumas into the back of a C-17 and have them flying within hours of landing - how's that for a rapid deplyment option?

Tourist - you're right about the dimensions of SK v Merlin, but the downwash is a problem. I guess that leaves us with the Puma....

[Mr-AEO]

I hate to say this but my 'cynic gland' tells me that the only reason people are pushing for Puma is because it's flown by the RAF.

I would hate to think that empire building & fence making would ever get in the way of an objective COEIA:}

[JNo]

I think you will find the Merlin is as quick, if not quicker, than the puma, and it can slow down faster. Also with greater fuel capacity it does not need to waste 15 mins refuelling every 1.30.

You're missing everyone of my points there, but thanks anyway for the input.....


I hate to say this but my 'cynic gland' tells me that the only reason people are pushing for Puma is because it's flown by the RAF.

And just about every non-American Air Force/Army around the world. Must be a resaon for it.

[Compressorstall]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr-AEO
I hate to say this but my 'cynic gland' tells me that the only reason people are pushing for Puma is because it's flown by the RAF.

And just about every non-American Air Force/Army around the world. Must be a resaon for it.

Is the reason because it's cheap and the French offer great kickbacks for every Puma you buy..?

Also, I think that the Mi-8/Mi-17 might be used by quite a few operators as well. Is this thread becoming a "The Puma's still quite good..." thread? I thought it was about buying additional Merlins??

[NURSE]

would disbanding the RAF Regiment release enough money to buy some new Merlins?

[movadinkampa747]

If you got rid of the RAF Regiment who would do the Force protection?

[SamCaine]

If you got rid of the RAF Regiment who would do the Force protection?

Any old chimp? :}

[movadinkampa747]

How do you like your Bananas cooked? Oh sorry. You are applying for the position I assume.:8

[SamCaine]

Been there, done that, wore the t shirt and moved on to a higher evolutionary ladder ... you should try it.

[movadinkampa747]

Join the RAF Regiment? I have a perfectly good job thank you.

[SamCaine]

No, I meant being some kind of force. The kind someone could reckon and rely upon. Unlikely, I know :confused:

[movadinkampa747]

Are you saying that you can't rely on the RAF Regiment?

[SamCaine]

:rolleyes: :suspect:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Are you saying that you can't rely on the RAF Regiment?

You can rely on them to look cool in tailored desert kit whilst cruising between their accommodation in TDA117 and J1 village (Pizza Hut) in their very shiny WMiKs.:rolleyes:

"I'm afraid we don't have any spare personnel to release for convoy protection duties as we are tied up with out important duties at Basrah, you'll have to use stackers and admin lads to do the Al Amara run. Right 2 sqn, lets get back to the plunge pool for a tanning sesh before the good light dies...."

[Nomad72]

Back to the subject Gents. I don't understand this anti-Puma sentiment from my fellow nautical bretheren. Sea King is great stable platform for SAR and ISTAR but is too slow and unreliable as SH in todays warfare. We need Puma, not because it's an RAF aircraft, but because it's pretty quick, manouverable and, above all, reliable. Because there are 600 odd in the worldwide fleet, parts are also plentiful and alot cheaper than Sea King. In 10 years time, I bet the only people who have Sea Kings will be us - think of the cost then! Puma has a few achilles heels but nothing frankly that a simple, off the shelf and low risk, update programme won't sort out.

Notwithstanding all above though, the real answer is the EC725.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ec725/

http://www.eurocopter.com/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?mode=&noeu_id=100&lang=EN
Awesome capability (much better than the NH90 at present), proven design (Puma with the few bad bits taken out), ship capable, 28 troop capacity, 1000Nm ferry range and, with all the toys, only €20M a go. Puts Merlin to shame. Pity though thats its not made in Yeovil, I think that will be the governing factor.

[Mr-AEO]

:hmm: I didn't say I supported Sea King, I merely pointed out this 'thrust' for Puma, Supa Puma or Cougar (whatever you want to call it) appears to be driven by politic rather than capability.

As for quoting from EC's glossies:hmm: - we can play Top Trumps if you like. I choose troop capacity for Utility Merlin = 40, so I win.

As you know, we can't and don't believe the hype - it's not a straight comparison. In real life neither of these aircraft can carry anything like that number of troops over the distance we require - try 4 or 5.

And as for £20M a copy; they will make that up in through life costs I'm sure.

[PTT]

I take your "most troops" trump and beat it with a Chinook. Since we already have that capability how about we look at a decent medium-SMALL helicopter? Cougar, perhaps?

[ProfessionalStudent]

I have experience (to a degree) of all current UK SH types and would take nice shiney new Cougars over fewer nice shiney new Merlins every time. Nothing really against the Merlin, but it's expensive and a little too Gucci for a BH. Also, flying out of Bas, it's often not full, leading to a SK being used and (with tongue firmly in cheek) the troops would be quicker driving. We NEED a SK/Puma size of platform to bridge the gap. Despite what the girls say, bigger isn't always better (and that from a Chinny driver).

We have more chance of NH90 than Cougar (Finmeccanica - Agusta Westland's parent company - have a 17% stake in the NH90 project) - though I'd take NH90 over Merlin too as a Puma replacement.

If we could licence build NH90 or Cougar in Westlands' sheds (as we did with the Puma and the Gazelle) then it may happen - until then, we'll buy more Merlins and Chinooks ad infinitum.

For all it's faults, the Puma will still carry 12 in the heat of the desert (as long as you don't want to take them too far) with the minimum of fuss, disruption and noise - if you're doing urban ops it's far more suitable than our other 2 types (and please don't mention the fat wheezy kid in the corner (Lx)). It's horses for courses isn't it?

[clapperboard]

[quote=ProfessionalStudent;2960348]" Also, flying out of Bas, it's often not full, leading to a SK being used and (with tongue firmly in cheek) the troops would be quicker driving. We NEED a SK/Puma size of platform to bridge the gap. Despite what the girls say, bigger isn't always better (and that from a Chinny driver)."


wo wo wo delilah!!!!!:= I take it you haven't been to BAS beyond april where the only sight of a SK is in the hanger in bits or on the pan for a VIP show. As for the mighty one being half empty i must have been dreaming when we moved over 150 troops with only two refuels oh yes and at +47c. Oh yes, you can hear them in BAS now WHY ISN'T THAT MERLIN FULL??? "coz ops cocked it up again!!" Oh well just another couple of grand wasted in fuel on the pan.(No accusation of seaking ground runs there! i promise):E

[clapperboard]

And another thing as for something more seaking size here are a few dimensions to ponder: Seaking length=22.15M Merlin=22.81M 66cm difference(i think a small price to pay for an extra 100 miles or so, oh yes and being able to put Fighting Fit troops on the ground afterwards)......I digress.....Seaking rotor diameter(turning, but not often)=18.9M Merlin= wait for it.....even shorter at 18.6M What was your argument again????

[ProfessionalStudent]

Clapperboard

Wire locked to aggresive eh? Chill your herbs.

Yes, I have been to BAS since April and I do have first hand and intimate experience of heli ops in theatre. Now that the outstations are closed and most of your work is in and around the city (feel free to grab anything I say and take it out of context), I would anticipate that the Merlin is indeed full most of the time. What I meant was that on the occassions that there are 10-14 to move, it would be more efficient to move them in a frame LIKE a SK or Puma in size - like NH90 or Cougar, rather than firing up Mr Westlands newest bastard love-child and flying it around half-full (or perhaps as you'd prefer it, half-empty).

I think the Merlin's doing a sterling job in Bas (though in 3 months I only saw 100% servceability for 20 minutes - less than the SK for the record - fact, not conjecture), and I know the boys are working very hard indeed. My point was that we need a smaller, medium sized BH with a max payload of around 16 (Cougar can realistically take that number a good distance with kit), that has a smaller footprint and is cheaper than Merlin to REPLACE the Puma and SK. If we end up with a fleet full of Chinook and Merlin, there'll be an awful lot of empty seats on an awful lot of sorties, and neither can really do effective urban assaults without destroying the place with downwash and/or being heard from miles away.

Now, pop along back to your tent and get back to your Observer's Book of Helicopters.:ok:

[mutleyfour]

Are you saying that you can't rely on the RAF Regiment?


Have to say that during my time in Kandahar the difference between the RAF Regt doing camp security and our Allies was hugely noticeable. Hats off from me for a difficult job carried out with utmost professionalism.

[Without Care]

Prof Stude,

Interesting you should say [QUOTE](feel free to grab anything I say and take it out of context)[QUOTE] when you had only 50% of the previous clause correct. Good point about the size of replacement; 'empty seats' are wasted but 'no seats' is no good at all.

Clapper, quality rant for your second post. Any more left...?

WC

[ProfessionalStudent]

Without Care

Yeah, I knew I was using a fairly broad gauged brush about the area of employment - difficult to be more specific with op sec and space available.

We DO need a halfway house between the little wheezy kid and the big fat kid though. A Centre to compliment the lithe Backs and the bonecrushing Forwards.