Scrap the RAF

[Strawbs_Albert_fixer]

I notice that in "The Times" this morning, under the letters to the editor, a Richard Need states that the RAF should be scraped i.e. disbanding the RAF as a separate arm of the forces.

"The Fleet Air Arm and the Army Air Corps could absorb aircrew and aircraft dedicated to specific sea and ground roles. A General in the field would have direct command not only over his armour, artillery and infantry but his air support as well. The admiral at sea would have absolute control not only over his ship borne aircraft but also those based in various Fleet Air Arm bases all over the world."

I think we have tired this already with the Harrier and if memory served me well the PVR rate on the Harrier Sqn went sky high. Do we fancy wearing green's all the time? or the Navy Blue?

[ORAC]

but also those based in various Fleet Air Arm bases all over the world...... :}

[The Helpful Stacker]

Isn't this just a re-jig of what a certain seemingly clueless ex-infantry officer said and then apologised for saying?

[PerArdua]

Richard Need states that the RAF should be scraped

I think we are being rubbed up the wrong way here!!!:=

PA

[Mead Pusher]

A cursory look at history should stop the debate. The RAF was formed because the single service route was inefficient and ineffective. Wasted resources, competing requirements, lack of support because the air assets were owned by a different organisation to the ones needing support, etc.

The RAF is a better way of doing things, which is why it now exists!

[Wiley]

Anyone who thinks this idea has any merit should take a look at what the South Vietnamese Government did in the years 1973-75 with their considerable air assets. It doesn't make pretty reading.

[truckiebloke]

Having experienced working with the army, I have found that their knowledge of aircraft roles is terrible. Using a hercules to carry a single Major somewhere because he requested it and couldn't wait until 3 hours time when a Herc was going that way anyway.....etc etc

Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals!

[mutleyfour]

Not sure this is even worth arguing about, after all the cutbacks recently it won't be long until theres nothing left to argue over.

[Skunkerama]

Come on, the writings on the wall, Joint this, joint that, JPA etc etc.

Resources getting smaller and smaller.

Welcome to USMC UK style. And yes it could work and be an improvement, but we all know that it wont, it will be fudged and messed about etc.

[truckiebloke]

Well I can only suggest that we continue to downsize whilst taking on more and more commitments around the world, invest lots of money in such schemes as JPA and capped actuals.

And maybe we can rely on our hierachy to say that everything is really alright and that guys love spending all their time away, not seeing their families or friends...

And maybe come up with a nice phrase such as, hmmm let me think...

''stretched, but NOT overstretched...''

[Father Jack Hackett]

"Centralized Control, Decentralized Execution"; "Airpower not effective in penny packets"; "Concentration of force" etc, etc...

Just raided my copy of AP 3000, point being that Trenchard, Douhet, Mitchell et al hacked air power theory early last century and the central tenets still hold true. Armchair Generals / ACMs / ex COs 1RIR should either make the effort to understand airpower before spouting off or simply STFUp.

The RAF lead the way in being the first independent air arm and the rest of the world eventually followed so I think we probably got it right.

I don't want to have a go at the army and I hold the AAC in high esteem, however I've seen what happens when the Brigadier has "a Puma on the front lawn" doing nothing when it could well be doing something useful for someone else. Imagine the chaos with a gaggle of Hercs, Harriers, Sentinels etc sat on some brass-hats capacious lawn while some other poor bugger in a different AOR is crying out for air.......

This cannot be allowed to happen.:ugh:

[Wiley]

Imagine the chaos with a gaggle of Hercs, Harriers, Sentinels etc sat on some brass-hats capacious lawn while some other poor bugger in a different AOR is crying out for air.......This is exactly what happend in South Vietnam within months of the Americans leaving the ARVN to run the show themselves. Every divisional commander demanded and got his own private air force, and the result was all too predictable - fragmented air assets which were refused to neighbouring ground formations because they might be needed sometime later by the ground commander who had them under his direct command. (And besides, they looked good on the lawn outside his HQ and made him feel important.)

On to a far more controveresial point, (and one that I'm sure will elicit howls of outrage from some quarters in Australia), look what happened when the Australians handed over all their rotary wing assets to the Army. For years, almost the whole fleet of Blackhawks languished on the ground for want of scheduled service, because the Army treated the choppers as trucks. (For quite some time, only three aircraft were serviceable from the whole fleet.)

And then the perdictable happened - the tragic crash in Townsville when two Blackhawks meshed rotors on a night exercise and the best part of a SAS Troop were killed.

I'm sure there'll be some who'll correct me on the details, but in a nutshell, the ground force commander decided to amend the operational procedures that had been practised in daylight, in particular, the formation they would adopt and the route they should fly. The more junior air element commander, also Army, unwilingly agreed to the changes, where a junior offer from a separate service could have safely said 'no' with no reprucussions to his career - as had happened on numerous occasions in the past when senior Army officers attempted to micromanage an air op. (And this was the main reason so many senior Army officers wanted control of the helo force.)

[teeteringhead]

When I was first about to join the SH Force (SRT in them days), I was told "the most important thing you can learn is how, as a flying officer, to tell a major to f:mad: k off"..... the answer of course is "not in those exact words".

Proved true for years and years, when I was a few pay grades higher than a flying officer, and could tell a general to f:mad: k off ...... but not in those exact words.......;)

[mutleyfour]

When I was first about to join the SH Force (SRT in them days), I was told "the most important thing you can learn is how, as a flying officer, to tell a major to f:mad: k off"..... the answer of course is "not in those exact words".
Proved true for years and years, when I was a few pay grades higher than a flying officer, and could tell a general to f:mad: k off ...... but not in those exact words.......;)

Its because of people with attitudes like yours the RAF will be dissed from now until kingdom come. The sooner the Air Force weed out you and your kind the better!

[Wiley]

Sorry Mutley, but the Townsville Blackhawk accident wouldn't have happened (and a lot of good men wouldn't have died) if the junior officer had been in a position to safely say 'No' to the senior officer without putting his career under threat. I've been in the position myself on more than one occasion as a Flying Officer or Flt Lt where I had to tell a Major or a Colonel that I couldn't do what he was demanding because it was unsafe.

I've also spent considerable time defending my ground crews from silly bloody WO's and Majors who wanted them parading around in full uniform with spit shined boots while sweating their arses off working on aircraft in the open in tropical conditions.

The same WOs and Majors couldn't seem to get their heads around the fact that these ground crew should have some 'down' time during the day because they worked sometimes until midnight servicing the aircraft when the aircraft had been out operating all day during 'normal' working hours. They wanted them to be see to be 'usefully' employed at all times between 0750 and 1700.

I'd be very interested to hear any comments from a current junior Army Aviation officer how he handles similar situations.

[South Bound]

Don't think so Mutley, it is because of attitudes like TH's that we have not lost more aircraft and people when being asked to do something that really should be done another way.

At least people are now starting to learn who the aviation SMEs are and now ask the crews 'what is the best way to deliver this package', rather than saying 'fly here, land here, die horribly'!!!

[mutleyfour]

Ok Apologies from me, I went off at the handle on the literal meaning and should have read, paused and then replied.

I understand there is a need as Aircraft Captain to be firm but fair to coin a phrase and after all your the person in charge regardless of Rank on or off the aircraft.

With regard to the AAC Junior Officer, we normally crew him with a grumpy NCO like myself. As my previous post is evident I don't mind gobbing off.

[Sailor Vee]

please tell me this is not to be? Who can the rest of the Armed Forces take the p**s out of.:E

[MightyGem]

The RAF was formed because the single service route was inefficient and ineffective.
Hmmm...now I always thought that the RAF was a single service combined from the RFC and RNAS.

[SASless]

A cursory look at history should stop the debate. The RAF was formed because the single service route was inefficient and ineffective. Wasted resources, competing requirements, lack of support because the air assets were owned by a different organisation to the ones needing support, etc.

The RAF is a better way of doing things, which is why it now exists!


Wasted resources, competing requirements, lack of support because the air assets were owned by a different organisation to the ones needing support, etc., now seems to be the problem all over again.

The Army and Marines who are engaged in shoot outs with the bad guys seem to be getting the dirty end of the stick when it comes to allocation of air assets are they not?

[London Mil]

SASless, it would be interesting to see the evidence. In my book, one set of comments from an individual doesn't necessarily mean theat the entire RAF are "utterly, utterly....". maybe someone should be out there collating/disseminating evidence that the RAF are actually delivering in many areas?

[Arthur's Wizard]

The RAF are utterly utterly useless.

There you go, that's two people's comments. Surely that makes it true:}

[blodwyn]

That makes the assumption that it has value !

[L J R]

The largest AIR FORCE is actually the US Army!

[mikip]

Why all the recent fuss about scrapping the RAF isn't that what successive governments have been slowly doing for the last 30 years or so?

[Two's in]

I think the name of the letter's author, "Richard Need", is probably a typo of the formal contraction, "Dick Weed".

[SASless]

The largest AIR FORCE is actually the US Army!


The Largest Navy is the US Army....really!:ok:


http://www.usmm.org/armynavy.html

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

?? Navy or Army?

Or was that satire?

[althenick]

How about this
We have not 1 but 2 RAF's - One for the navy and one for the Army
Think about it, Both RAF(RN) and RAF(Army) personell could assimilate to their parent Services (Uniform/Rank etc). For assets that aren't controlled by the other 2 services then a Home command could be formed Jointly by the 2 RAF's.
Thinking out loud again...:(

[ORAC]

And you could call them the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Navy Air Service. Then we could have a committee on how to coordinate them (http://www.rafweb.org/Air_Boards.htm)and the tricky bit about how to divide up the blue and green bits to defend an island...... :} :}

[Wader2]

We have not 1 but 2 RAF's - One for the navy and one for the Army: RAF(RN) and RAF(Army) personel could assimilate to their parent Services (Uniform/Rank etc). For assets that aren't controlled by the other 2 services then a Home command could be formed Jointly by the 2 RAF's.

Great Idea.

Then under CAS we could have CAS(RN), CAS(Army) and CAS(Air). Then of course we would need the approproriate DCAS, VCAS etc. If each type is nominally in STC/1Gp then we would need . . .

[Melchett01]

We have not 1 but 2 RAF's - One for the navy and one for the Army

Now what would we call these air forces? I know, how about the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service :hmm:

And who would decide which personnel were assimilated into which service? Whilst I have a lot of admiration for both the AAC and FAA crews, I have to say I'd rather go and work for Richard Branson's air force than the army or navy. Most people join the RAF because of the 3 services, that is the one that lets them do the job they want, but also because the air force ethos and way of doing things appeals more than the army or navy's. Any forced assimilation would only lead to an even bigger flood of people heading towards the exit.

[scroggs]

The Canadians went down this road several years ago. In fact, they went further: they combined all three services into a single command/rank/uniform structure. It was, by all accounts, an unmitigated disaster. They have since returned to a three-service structure, though with a broadly purple top end.

[Kitbag]

Any forced assimilation would only lead to an even bigger flood of people heading towards the exit.

And wouldn't that just suit the politicians of all parties? :ugh:

[Navaleye]

If we got rid of the RAF the Navy would only have the Army to bitch about and that wouldn't be much fun.

[LunchMonitor]

So, if they scrap the RAF then would we all be made redundant, obviously being paid redundancy, and then be expected to sign new contracts/apply to join the Navy/Army?

[HEDP]

No but you might be expected to work for a living for a change!:E

[Army Mover]

So, if they scrap the RAF then would we all be made redundant, obviously being paid redundancy, and then be expected to sign new contracts/apply to join the Navy/Army?
Just hope they don't offer you statutory redundancy - it will come as a shock to some. Check this out:

http://www.dti.gov.uk/cgi-bin/er_reconner.pl

[Navaleye]

You wouldn't even get that. I'm afraid "continuation of employment" comes into play and your contracts would be transferred to your new employer.

[BluntedAtBirth]

And you could call them the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Navy Air Service. Then we could have a committee on how to coordinate them (http://www.rafweb.org/Air_Boards.htm)and the tricky bit about how to divide up the blue and green bits to defend an island...... :} :}

To stict to form they should technically be the Military and Navy Wings of the Royal Flying Corps for about 2 years while everyone ignores the destinction...

[The Helpful Stacker]

You wouldn't even get that. I'm afraid "continuation of employment" comes into play and your contracts would be transferred to your new employer.

Would they?

I joined the Royal Air Force not the RN or the Army (well actually I was in the RGJ's until I saw he light). I'm sure that any right-minded employment lawyer would make mince meat of an MoD attempting to force RAF personnel into serving under another branch of the military.

[Pontius Navigator]

Navaleye is quite correct. Under TUPE you would be offered the chance to transfer if your job, under your new employer, existed in substantially the same form. If you chose not to accept you are assumed to have opted to leave. You would retain your pension rights to date but would be entitled only to working your notice.

[GlosMikeP]

Sad but true.

[Rocket Chucker]

please tell me this is not to be? Who can the rest of the Armed Forces take the p**s out of.:E


Newcastle United fans for a start - everyone else does :ugh:

[WPH]

TUPE does not apply to servicemen. If it did it would be very difficult to write availability contracts giving our second line work to industry! TUPE does apply to our Civil Serpants and is therefore a big stumbling block for availability contracts. Anyway, the RAF isn't going anywhere for quite some time yet so it's irrelevant.

[Daf Hucker]

Nit PIcking Mode - On

IIRC the RAF wasn't first independant air force, I think it was the Italian Air Force, but standing by to be corrected.

Nit Picking Mode - Off

[The Helpful Stacker]

Nit PIcking Mode - On
IIRC the RAF wasn't first independant air force, I think it was the Italian Air Force, but standing by to be corrected.
Nit Picking Mode - Off

It was the Finnish Air Force, not the Italian Air Force.

[femmers]

I've seen people mentioning the Vietnamese as a reason why it wouldn't work, but just because they got it wrong, doesn't mean that it can't work. It's almost like saying Chelsea can't use the 4-3-2-1 formation because West Brom got relagated using it. Well if you've got better player's, better coaches, better management and more cash, you can win a league with that formation. Before people start picking me up on that comparison, it is merely an example of the point that just because someone else got it wrong, doess't mean we would.

And for the people who make the points about the Army not knowing what to do with a/c. Well...if the RAF was absorbed into the Army then of course the RAF would bring all their expertise and lessons learned with them and use that to the advantage of the military as a whole.

The guy who made the point about "Joint" and JPA has a good point....it does seem to be the way things are going so it may happen in the future. I'm not saying it will, or should, just "may", and the RAF/Army shouldn't be narrow minded about it - again, before someone quotes that, Im not saying that the RAF/Army as a whole are being narrow minded about it, but certainly it seems alot of people in this forum are (mainly RAF I pressume).

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Fair point but it would only last for about 10 years. The "expertise" would then align itself to the Service with the most investment in the joint "Force". Flexibility and recognition of the uniqueness of the air battle space would be lost. The aircraft would again be Army's mobile artillery and the Navy's additional weapon system. We've already had experience of air assets being under-utilised by submariners.

JFH is a success then? Well I suppose standardising on mudmovers has helped. Before we confuse banter with petty single service rivalry, it may be worth remembering why the RAF was formed. Jan Smuts was not an idiot and saw how things would progress. Do we want to now argue that he, Sykes et al had it wrong then? If that's the case, I'm certainly glad that we got the 2nd World War and the Cold War out of the way first.

Disclaimer

Any adverts or extraneous words appearing against my title are not supported nor agreed by me.

[Faithless]

Sack the Crabs...No, How else would we get an overnight stop on the p1ss in Cyprus because of some lame excuse that the Tristar has bird sh1t on the wind screen. SAC Fcuknuts has knocked off for the night so now onward travel allowed and they are out of hours........because they got up at 0600hrs and missed breakfast.

Stand by its on its way, soon JHC will have its own cap badge!!!!

[glum]

And we'll get ANOTHER new set of No. 1's!:eek:

[GreenKnight121]

Having missed this thread the first time around...

"I've also spent considerable time defending my ground crews from silly bloody WO's and Majors who wanted them parading around in full uniform with spit shined boots while sweating their arses off working on aircraft in the open in tropical conditions."


How true, in 1986 I was a Sgt in Headquarters & Maintenance Squadron 13 (USMC)... which provided second-tier maintenance for 2 A-6E, 4 A-4M, and 1 KC-130 squadrons.

We got a new Sgt Major... fresh from Infantry via Embassy Duty. He was horrified by our lack of training in the essentials of "Grunt Marine", and proceeded to institute all sorts of PT (daily, during normal working hours), leadership training, etc. to "make us better Marines"... including changing the weekly "working uniform inspection" to a daily one, with other uniforms being worn for inspection once a week.

He was especially disappointed that the 365 E-4 & 5 NCOs were "not properly supervising the E-3 & below enlisted (all 375 of them) on liberty"... despite the fact that there was no formal liberty on MCAS El Toro (southern California), as all personnel were considered "on liberty" any time they were not at work or in the active "duty section".

This all used up ~15 hours of our normal 40 hours per week of work time.

It all came to a head when the 3rd Marine Air Wing CG came over for the monthly flight hours needed to keep his flight status... and all of the aircraft he was qualified on were "down". It seems that the engines that went in that type were all in for repair... and the techs were all out doing their training!

The next morning the Sgt. Major found another Sgt. Major in his office... with orders for him to report to the 3rd MAW CO for "reassignment"!
:ok:

[The Helpful Stacker]

'Warfighter first, tradesman second' :ugh:
That'll be why so many in the RAF spend shed loads of time learning their trade but only one day a year playing silly buggers in greens then is it?

Roll on 31/10/07.






Please note, 'The Helpful Stacker' is a non-commercial enterprise and as such any adverts placed against his post are done so against his will. Placement does not signify endorsement of said products or services.

[BluntedAtBirth]

Please note, 'The Helpful Stacker' is a non-commercial enterprise and as such any adverts placed against his post are done so against his will. Placement does not signify endorsement of said products or services.

I am disappointed, Helpful, from 'your' add I thought you had branched out into 'procuring' as part of your resettlement - now that IS helpful stacking!

[The Helpful Stacker]

I am disappointed, Helpful, from 'your' add I thought you had branched out into 'procuring' as part of your resettlement - now that IS helpful stacking!

Not me, NEBOSH consultancy is the way forward, especially in the Logistics sector.:ok:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

'Warfighter first, tradesman second' :ugh:
That'll be why so many in the RAF spend shed loads of time learning their trade but only one day a year playing silly buggers in greens then is it?


A valid argument. One of the whole points of the Air Force was a professional projector of warfare through individual Trades. During my stint down South, the Brigadier type CBFFI had this determination to get the Air Force contingent out in the field exercising KPD etc. It went down like a brick budgie because they still had to find time to keep the air assets on the Line.
Is that the plan? cover the Army shortfall from the ranks of a disbanded RAF? We could always hire in Contractors to fill the resultant gap. After all, the MoD priority is the "here and now" at the risk of future operations.

DISCLAIMER.

Any adverts seen here are nothing to do with me.

[GPMG]

Armed forces should train for the type of role they may have to undertake so RAF personel should only have to practice base defence as far as getting all CS95'd up.

There is no real need for you guys to get all cammed up and dirty, other than the odd convoy protection duty. I agree that your formost objective is to keep those lumps of metal going 'up tiddly up up'.

[Sideshow Bob]

I'm not joining the Army, I worked too hard at school and I'm not quite that stupid :} Why run around in a field playing soldiers when I can sit at home and watch TV when I'm not flying.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I'm not joining the Army, I worked too hard at school and I'm not quite that stupid :} Why run around in a field playing soldiers when I can sit at home and watch TV when I'm not flying.

I used to be an infantryman (Rifleman actually).:uhoh:

Now I wear the coveted grey/blue.:ok:

[GPMG]

I'm not joining the Army, I worked too hard at school and I'm not quite that stupid :} Why run around in a field playing soldiers when I can sit at home and watch TV when I'm not flying.


Ahhhhh the old 'people that wear green are thick' jibe? Congratulations, you may not be stupid but you are incredibly ignorant. Mind you I guess the fact that your young and have no experience of life could be an excuse.

[Gnd]

I guess that Sideshow Bob will be a side show soon enough, he is bound to end up on the ground with such an ignorant attitude. OC Ops, bitter and twisted seems appropriate.:ugh:

[saudipc-9]

Gents,
I think Sideshow is teasing you!!!! You know.......banter!!!!!!;)

[Golden Flyer]

What are the contracts like for you military guys in the UK?

[A2QFI]

We don't have contracts, in the legally enforceable sense - we have Terms of Service which are not the same thing at all!

[Sideshow Bob]

Ahhhhh the old 'people that wear green are thick' jibe? Congratulations, you may not be stupid but you are incredibly ignorant. Mind you I guess the fact that your young and have no experience of life could be an excuse.

38 years old and 20 years service, you guess wrong :D
saudipc-9 Your right, but it's too easy with these green types, not very clever you know.

[sarmonkey]

The main issue here is being ignored, namely: if the RAF is scrapped, the RN and Army would have to find another force to try and transfer to. All the AAC chaps would try and transfer to the RN, who would be busy applying to the RAAF or any other country sensible enough to speak English and have an Air Force. The resultant chaos would decimate the Services and plunge the country into anarchy. In effect, the presence of the RAF is preserving national security saving the country from certain doom. Again.

Banter warning red: I am not being serious. I say again, I am not being serious. That is all.

[Sideshow Bob]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250335
GPMG
Now you see why we won't let you play with the big toys.:)

[endplay]

In my not inconsiderable time in the RAF I have known many people who have transferred from the Army or Navy to the light blue (of my last 3 bosses 1 was ex dark blue and 1 ex brown) but I can't recall anyone going the other way. I don't know if there's much traffic between the other 2 Services either.

It would seem to me that people either made the right choice initially or have finally come to their senses and joined us later in life. It would make scrapping the RAF so disappointing for so many that we really should resist it on humanitarian grounds alone.

[TMJ]

In my not inconsiderable time in the RAF I have known many people who have transferred from the Army or Navy to the light blue (of my last 3 bosses 1 was ex dark blue and 1 ex brown) but I can't recall anyone going the other way. I don't know if there's much traffic between the other 2 Services either.


As I said on another thread, I know a couple of EngOs who've come to the end of their short-service commission and are looking to join the Army; that's more because there aren't enough slots for them in the RAF rather than a burning desire to be in the Army though...

[NVIS]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250335
GPMG
Now you see why we won't let you play with the big toys.:)

Not like the Chinny Boss who shut down one engine "pushing on" with the other, to then starve it of fuel......Never pass gas!
Or the Puma QHI who forgot to advance the ECL's after a PFL...Oops a little more thatn Cat 1 there.
We all make mistakes, get over it:ok:

[VuctoredThrest]

I know of one RAF pilot who was so taken with the Sea Harrier (who wouldn't be) that he transferred to the RN.

[cynicalint]

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/search/Search/show/nav.4701/pp/15/catId%5B42%5D%5B%5D/00300p004/contentType/conMediaFile/catId%5B43%5D%5B%5D/00300p/currentPage/2# (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/search/Search/show/nav.4701/pp/15/catId%5B42%5D%5B%5D/00300p004/contentType/conMediaFile/catId%5B43%5D%5B%5D/00300p/currentPage/2)

Look at the video titled 'The Unexpected'.I
f you transfer to the RN, this is what you can look forward to! At least the diver has the sense to jump out of the RN Helicopter.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Not like the Chinny Boss who shut down one engine "pushing on" with the other, to then starve it of fuel......Never pass gas!
Or the Puma QHI who forgot to advance the ECL's after a PFL...Oops a little more thatn Cat 1 there.
We all make mistakes, get over it:ok:

What about the Lynx pilot who ran out of go juice somewhere near XMG, resulting in one of his rather sheepish colleagues popping into our cosy TSW crewroom at R850 to see if a couple of us minded quietly throwing a pump, filter and hoses onto his Lynx and coming for a jolly in order that we could do an a/c to a/c refuel?

Just before Christmas too and even though we kept it strictly in-house rather than noting it in the DO log we still didn't get anything of the tight buggers for our efforts. At least floppy crews used to bring biscuits with them when they visited some of the other sites.

[movadinkampa747]

we still didn't get anything of the tight buggers

Mus have been ex RAF Stackers.

[Golden Flyer]

We don't have contracts, in the legally enforceable sense - we have Terms of Service which are not the same thing at all!

Why wouldnt you just answer the question since you know what I mean?:\.... Contracts, Terms of Service... TO ME, its all the same ****! Once you sign that paper, you're legally bined to it. Anyone out there that would care to answer my question, I'd be greatful....

Cheers...

[Golden Flyer]

A2QFI,

Check it out... "TERMS & CONTRACT":
http://www.rafcareers.com/istherafforme/payandconditions.cfm

[diginagain]

THS - if I may, on behalf of those portly, sweaty SNCO aircrew who forgot to thank you, thank you.

Hope you enjoyed the Bonios.

[emergov]

I am amused by the utter tosh Wiley posted in this thread. To infer that RAAF crews would not have made the same mistakes as Army crews in 1996 because of some mystical ability to resist mission creep is farcical. The accident investigation runs to hundreds of pages, and does not suggest a transfer of Army acft back to the RAAF.

The debate about Air Forces and their effectiveness is not new, and it is driven by the fact that Air Forces are expensive, and they sometimes fail to deliver the goods.
If the Navy, or the Army or the Marines are dissatisfied with the service provided, then either a) the service is inadequate, or b) they have been given unrealistic expectations. In my experience, users of aircraft don't give a rat's raspberry about the operator's problems. They just want their herc / fighter / helo / bombs on time, on target or both; and don't expect any understanding from people who aren't living in a/c or working a strict 10 hour day when you can't deliver.

[Maple 01]

What about the Lynx pilot who ran out of go juice

why has the image of The Lord Flashart just come to mind? Woof!