MD902 vs EC135

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Hi Team,
Just wondering with all this wealth of info on here could the above drivers give their point of view on which one is better,Good points,Bad points etc.Have trolled thru the EC135 thread but want a more up to date argument:E .Cheers:ok: :ok:

[Head Turner]

Nicest things about the MD is the cockpit logic and big square cabin. The worst things about the EC is the hover power margin, it's poor payload and short range. They have equally bad points (MD) and good points (EC). Neither do a really good job.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Dis-Mystery of Lift,

What role are you looking at for the aircraft?

FNW

[tbc]

Head Turner: "They have equally bad points (MD) and good points (EC). Neither do a really good job."

Can't let you get away with that one old son!!

You need to explain and give evidence to back up such a forthright comment.

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

One outsells the other by about 10:1 ???????

[5.0]

I've driven both and the question is essentially this:

Do you like cats or dogs?

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

So one of them must be a dog then..............

[Flingwing207]

From the websites:

MD900
Useful load 2900 lb
Max cruise 135kt
VNe 140kt
Range 260nm


EC135
Useful load 3200 lb
Max cruise 138
VNe 145
Range 350nm

On paper, HOGE and HIGE performance looks pretty similar. There's my contribution!

[fone_effect]

Is there a future for the 902 given the reported state of the company ?

[tbc]

G C N - 10:1?

[Lima Oscar]

..........

[Droopy]

Wow! I wish we had one like that....ours would go ominously quiet after about 380nm at that cruise speed....

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Used in various roles Utility/Corporate.

Thanks for the info so far:ok:

[helopat]

Having read the posts here, I'm left with a feeling that I've tossed the baby up in the air and it hasn't come down yet.

I don't know squat about either aircraft, either before or after reading this thread.

Helopat

[widgeon]

the big difference is in spares support.................. do you prefer hearing excuses for late deliveries with an American or German accent :)

[Eurobolkow]

Lima Oscar, are you sure your EC135 isnt being towed along at that cruise speed by an Agusta Grand:)

Vne: 168 kts
Max Cruise: 155kts
Range: 510 nm

I know what I'd have every time!!

[Head Turner]

OK I'll come clean...............our 135 cruises at 125-130 kts with 9 bananas on the FLI and 2 hours 20 minutes is the best we have achieved with no fuel left in the main tank and 40/35kg in the supply tanks. That equates to roughly 300 nms. I would love to swop our's for the one Lima Oscar has just for those extra 50 nms.
Hover performance is pretty lethargic. I won't give figures as there are too many varibles, but only to say that my experiences with 'limited power' now are very useful.
Once at and above 40 kts it flys very well and the autopilot is superb. Silly place to put the Cat A switch but believe that this glitch is being addressed.
With 7 pob and no luggage the range is about 70 nms/ 45 mins flight time which is pittiful.
Luggage space is excellent and CG is manageable.
We have a bleed air heater and no a/con as it was too heavy and assessed that we would probably need it only on a couple of occasions.
An Agusta Grand would have been a better choice except that the TR is vunerable to damage being close to the ground in situations of off airport landings. And more expensive. So as a compromise we have the 135 with the harsh ride in turbulent conditions.

[5.0]

So one of them must be a dog then..............
Yup - reliable, faithful, simple,
um,
starts first time,
er,
big cabin,
no it's gone.

[zorab64]

Dis - Mystery - could I suggest you do a search on this site where you'll find this subject has been discussed, in great detail, more than once. The only real difference in the last 6-12 months is that the EC135 T2i upgrade is now in the pipeline (extra 75kg / 20 mins endurance) and the 902 lost out in the LUH contract; admitedly not to the 135 but to its stablemate - built on parallel production lines with many similar parts and an almost identical cockpit.
Take a look at these links to start with:
EC135 – http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189945
MD Explorer - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=197460
Have fun! :ok:

[quichemech]

Where's PAN, he's usually popped up by now to slag off the 902:rolleyes: From an engineers point of view the 135 is easier to work on unless you've got an Ambulance fit trim and then that can be a bit of a laugh to get out when it's time to change the Aris pots:ugh:

[doublesix]

Hi Rich, how's it going? Hope to see you at Christmas for a drink.

:O

[PANews]

Ah, did someone call?

Slag off the Explorer?

Why?

Most of what I said came to pass and a lot of backs are now turned against the type, not my choice or doing it was something quite predictable for quite a while.

If Mesa can keep its act together there may well be a new dawn but not yet this side of hand-wringing, dreams and 2007/08.

Meanwhile the customer has voted with their billfolds at a disparity level of about 5 to 1 [certainly not 10 to 1 even if you include all the alternatives].

Meanwhile, in the UK emergency services market at least, there are three clear choices [135,145 and Grand]. Until that situation alters the Explorer remains sidelined. Not dead, sidelined.

The Explorer [or something similar without an EC badge] is needed in the light twin market but whatever it is will be no good unless it works and works well.

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Thanks Zorba,
Have trolled thru all that.What I wanted was guy's flying/or flown the types to comment.Have got some good gen:ok: and some dribbling but thats the way it is.Appreciate the input anyway..thanks guys:ok:

[fkelly]

So why did a certain East England ASU recently buy one in the full knowledge of the chronic spares situation?

[PANews]

Cambridgeshire ordered their aircraft long before the s*** really hit the fan with MDHI. Allegedly it may well have cost someone their wings. Anyway a much delayed delivery [recently] has been into better times so lucky them - although they are not entirely clear and home free.

Yorkshire?

Yes spent some money and they will probably buy a second shortly but both were second hand and already over here. The price quoted in the Yorkshire Post for their purchase of their leased machine was shall we say 'extravagent' ... twice what HEMS were being offered for theirs. Therein lies another stoty.

Yes, there will be sales but what we are talking about for the survival of the Explorer are SALES... buying up a couple of old machines is not turning the corner, more like going round a bend!

This is domestic UK internal dealing with no feedback for MDHI. The survival of the type does not actually rely on what one air ambulance charity does week by week. Even Kent AAT's recent tender for new aircraft is thinking outside the box and they have loved their Explorer for as long as most.

Stand back a bit.

[MINself]

PANews I don't agree with your choices for the Emergency Services helicopter being just the 135,145 and the Grand. I don't have anything against these other types or those who operate them but them that operate the 902 rave about it too.

Its difficult to find 1 type that fulfills all the roles for a UK Emergency Service helicopter but I think the 902 is as good if not better a contender for the role. IMO its down to the needs of the operator but to dismiss the 902 as you do so is very blinkered, when you speak to those that have to operate the 902 they talk of its merits with the NOTAR, high set main rotor, fantastic forward visiblity and especially its large and quite cabin, if the customers happy alls well!

The problems you talk about are behind MD and to infer that they aren't is akin to saying that just as any new or old helicopter suffer periods of difficulty this will always make them second rate, regardless of how many years ago this was or the level of support to the operator in recent times.

:ugh:

Ms

[whoateallthepies]

What I wanted was guy's flying/or flown the types to comment

PANews. Can you fulfill this requirement?

Why do you think units still buy the Explorer, second-hand or not? It is supremely good at what it is required to do. A shame about the historical troubles but on a purely operating level it is a good helicopter.

It's such a shame that you cannot be objective or unbiased about this. Do you get much funding from Eurocopter/Mcalpines?

[HeliEng]

Has anyone done a feasability study on the Bell 429 for the UK Police and EMS market?

[quichemech]

Heli-eng, it says 135 902 at the top! Wakey wakey! Anyway bell what?:rolleyes:

[Head Turner]

Dis-Mystery of Lift

So you have it... all the info that you requested.

So now what we want to know....What is your hoice based on the mirasma of users knowledge.

And tell us why you have chosen either the MD902 or the EC135....all the grizzly details for sure we want to know.

[Coconutty]

Zorab mentioned the 135 T2i upgrade giving an extra 75Kg - Isn't anyone going to mention the 902 tail boom extension being offered as a "free" upgrade to exisiting users, and quote the extra MAUW figures ( 6500 lb ?? ) ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

I do not meet the criteria, so I did not invite myself. I was mentioned so came in.

..................

Yes the 429 may well get a looking in, yes the Explorer may get a look in. But the manufacturers of both those types have gone on record as saying they will not be able to adequately service the market with new airframes before late 2007 or 2008. There is a suggestion that the needs of some might well precede that sort of dateline. So my list stands as given.

whoateallthepies I would severe exception to your statement that [the Explorer] is 'supremely good at what it is required to do' and then to mention the 'historical troubles'... that does not compute as a balanced statement even if only on the grounds of the 'troubles'.

No helicopter is 'supremely good' all are a compromise and this thread is supposed to be asking for ideas from ppruners about the good and bad points between two candidates to enable a choice to be made. 'Supremely good' suggests there is no choice, and is hardly a balanced assessment of anything aeronautical. On the contrary more than 501 customers say there is an alternative to the 'supreme' being. Or perhaps you think PAN bought them all up from massive profits as a scam just to wind you up!

Yet, on a 'purely operating level [the Explorer] is a good helicopter'. As reported it hasn't always operated!

Overall it just sounds like you are mighty biased towards a particular product which I rarely if ever knock on flying quality or capability. Reporting the problems - of which there have been a few - is not bias it's reporting.

Perhaps there are things I caused? Perhaps you think I have magical AOG powers?

And back to that age old juvenile finger pointing....

No, Eurocopter have never ever advertised in my publication. McAlpine, Eurocopter UK currently do not advertise in my publication, they like most of the the major manufacturers UK representatives and aircraft suppliers have advertised in the past. Both MDHI and Boeing have advertised the 520N and the 900 in the past.

And to top it all you have formed your very biased negative opinion on my reportage of perhaps 50 words in 50,000 by regularly reading PAN.

So I am well satisfied!!! That's all I ever asked of you.

PAN has given you a biased opinion!

[Daft bat]

MINself
but them that operate the 902 rave about it too.

I take it you have never spoken to the West Mids ASU then. saw their new EC135 P2 at McAlpines the other week.

[handysnaks]

Um.......................no, maybe not!:eek:

[Helinut]

In the real world the support (or lack of it) that a manufacturer provides is and should be a major factor in choosing a hele where you need it to fly (rather than be a sexy static exhibit and/or ego extension). The other important issue is the required maintenance (scheduled and non) An extra 5 knots on VNE matters little if the bl**dy thing is in the hangar.

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Sorry guys not my final decision...I can make recomendations but it's up to those that have the wallets in the end.By the way I will believe the 429 when it's sitting on the pad in front of me!!:ok:

[whoateallthepies]

I love it when someone bites! Especially when it's an anorak/helicopter groupie.

Some PANews quotes:-
I would severe exception to your statement that [the Explorer] is 'supremely good at what it is required to do'
Nice English. Look me old, it is, I've used it, when you have flown one come back to me. Don't argue semantics.

Overall it just sounds like you are mighty biased towards a particular product which I rarely if ever knock on flying quality or capability
Oh no? How about this bit of disinformation?
Mind you it busts the myth about Notars never having loss of tail rotor authority!
I never said I believed the myth about tail rotor authority!

There's a nicely balanced statement for you! But you are happy to promote that bit of disinformation? Typical journalist.
900s break as often as the other airframes [well maybe a bit more often]
Where are your figures? No biased speculation there then. Ah, but that is explained at the end of this .

And when you sneered at Cambridge's choice of the EXplorer:-
clearly before choosing the Explorer above all others because it was ‘Cheap as chips’
No bias here? Cambridge obviously bought it just because it was cheap? No wonder 902 operators don't talk to you! -----
It is an unfortunate twist that no 900 unit is among those that voluntarile send me material.

Again, top of the class for spelling.

And back to journalistic tendencies:-
one lone journo was consistently saying nasty, unpalatable, things [that he thinks were regularly close to the truth]
Journo rule #1 "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story".
In which case its down to you to point out the errors.
I see now. You just spout what you like as long as you think it's close to the truth. That's OK then and it's up to us then to point out your errors. You could get a job with the Sun with that kind of journalism. Well done. You have made the transition from Helicopter anorak to full-fledged, make-it-up-as-you-go-along, journalist

[MightyGem]

Cambridge obviously bought it just because it was cheap?
That's what they told me.

[PANews]

Whoateallthepies....

Perhaps you should get out more.

Did you really sit down and compile all that lot... were you ever really that bored...

I guess a few of those were taken out of context... and of course you left out the other bits where I moaned about restricted headroom in the rear of both the EC135, 145 and 109, aris pots problems and a few other gems because I guess they do not fit in with your assumption that I have a highly developed slag onto the Explorer alone.

But other than that I recognise the style of writing so I certainly cannot be ar**d to go and pull together where you might have over-laboured the context.

So you win, I am wrong.

I hereby declare that the UK EC135 does not regularly achieve well over 95% availability [as the police forces concerned announced] and the Explorer fleet significantly lower [as at least one police authority report announced], the MD has never crashed through a Notar failure [as reported by NTSB], that the Dutch got out of the programme, and of course I am witholding the news that there are 400 potential operators waiting to buy the MD900 with delivery of all of them by Christmas 2006.

Most of the other 'severe moans' are about typos.... perhaps Pprune should let us have a spell-checker or expect to to get our touch typing accurate!

[whoateallthepies]

PANews
Perhaps you should get out more.

One fact I won't dispute.
However, it doesn't take long to pull a few quotes from a history of postings. There is plenty of ammunition there.

Your perception is that I am biased towards the explorer because of my posts. In fact that's not the case but that's your perception and I'm happy to leave it there.

My perception (and that of many of my professional colleagues) is that you are biased towards Eurocopter products based on many years of reading your excellent publication. I know you vehemently deny it but I'm afraid that is the perception from what has been written

As a journalist it should be a matter of pride, surely, that your grammar and spelling are correct? It detracts from your posts otherwise.

[Head Turner]

We now have a bun fight between speculative journo's. Great! Don't believe anything that you read in the press.. that's nothing new so getting back to 135/900.
We bought the 135 on looks, functionality and a reputation that on the whole the EC product was well catered for on the maintenance back-up support. And to date we are happy that we didn't go the 900 route from what we know of the troubles that our close business friends are experiencing. Though we have to agree that when the 900 is not in the hangar it does work well. We have had unserviceabilities and ongoing problems but the maintenance outfit are doing a good job to keep us in the air.
Helinut has made the point very clearly that any purchase has to be out there flying and not languishing in a hangar.

[PANews]

You and I know that we are never going to get anywhere with this... sitting on two different hilltops and neither going down into the valley!

I really do not understand where you get the baggage though. There is a whole industry out there and I do try and get a good cross section of it. Although that is often thwarted by some sections not talking ... and its not just the UK MD community. Lack of of contact leads to lack of understanding and that will lead to incorrect perceptions. I was trained to talk [aka interrogate] but the 'Right of Silence' leads to the making of assessments and I guess that is where your gripe lies. Just plain reporting would never lead to this!

Eurocopter, Agusta and Bell have the lions share of the new aircraft market and pump out interesting material in a similar order so I would expect to feature them far more than Enstrom, MD, Brantly etc at any one time. And that is roughly what happens until something else pops up from one of the smaller operations [and I include fixed wing in there - emergency services is largely dominated by rotary] and temporarily steals the limelight. Like the Dutch situation and the groundings.

Sometimes I miss a 'nasty' about Eurocopter, the recent triple grounding of the Met's venerable AS355Ns is a case in point. Having missed it in July it then becomes a balance whether its of interest that the Met had sheer bad luck in making metal in three gearboxes in a month two months ago... probably not but I have it filed. Anyway EC are not the be-all and end all, it would be more important if it was the AS350 because it is a by far more important helicopter type in emergency service.

Overall I might see and interpret the news to the point of EDITING whether I use it but I do not actually create the opportunities. I try to limit myself under 30 pages in a month but I guess that will breach one day.

Bias?

Yes, everyone has bias - and this very thread is probably exhibiting our own personal lines of fire.

None of this explains an inability by some to talk and then for them to complain that the 'Right to silence' has resulted in a misinterpretation.

Funny in the main the complaints come from UK MD operators. An important, silent, but so tiny emergency services group. Perhaps that says something.

I think the typing is a bit more precise this time... maybe not!

Next!

[whoateallthepies]

PANews
I would like to "shake hands" across the internet and agree that we won't get anywhere with this.

Sorry about the gripe about spelling/grammar, it's a pet hate. (Now those interested can go back over my old posts to nit-pick!)

You do pull together a lot of interesting stuff from around the globe and I (and colleagues) enjoy the read.

More power to your elbow.

[MightyGem]

Ahhh, a truce, I think. ;)

[whoateallthepies]

That's the word, Mighty. I had my grumpy moment and got over it.
The trouble is, the present job gives me too much time to read Pprune. (And watch Pro Bull Riding)

[Coconutty]

PAN has been at it again I see -

Latest edition of PA News quotes a UK MD902 operator ordering a new 135 P2 ( Pratt & Whitney engines ), being the first in the UK not to select the Turbo Mecca engines...
West Midlands were already operating a particularly
unreliable PWC powered MD900 Explorer and so
had a very good appreciation of PWC’s customer service
and reliability within that negative reliability scenario.

I wonder what Pratt & Whitney make of the above statement :confused:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Lima Oscar]

Wow! I wish we had one like that....ours would go ominously quiet after about 380nm at that cruise speed....

hi !

We were talking about performance (at the beginning of the thread) and with the long range configuration on the EC135 T2 (730 kg of fuel) the range is 456nm at economical speed (128kt)... if you don't believe me, you just have to check your technical data !

at cruise speed (140kt) and with standard fuel configuration (560kg) we have 330nm... ;)

bye

[PANews]

Perhaps PWC would be pleased that the engines 'shone through' as being particularly reliable in spite of everything?

Clearly West Midlands were well pleased with the PWC engines and support.

Pleased enough to take the plunge and bring the P2 into the UK market. Not that difficult of course this time around of course as EASA certification means it just reads across to the UK. In the past the first one to have broken the Turbomeca mould would have faced some heavy financial burdens.

I assume you are not saying that West Midlands should have selected something different?

[Droopy]

Lima Oscar.....you didn't specify you had the long range option...

[Daft bat]

I heard that Northeat ASU has also bought a 135 P2 to replace their T1, Same person said it's already at McAlpines Oxford.

[What Limits]

You might find that the second P2 is destined for East Midlands.