Tail Draggers!

[S205-18F]

Well today I finally took the plunge and started to learn to fly my Luton Minor! I started by taxying up and down the runway looking for the inevitable ground loop and sure enough I found it or was it found me:E Not as terrifying as I first imagined plenty of room and virtually no speed, it was drummed into me not above walking pace down wind. I then progressed onto lifting the tail which is a novel experience after 100 hours in trikes! The best part was the experience of chocks and hand starting the VW engine was a delight to start and idled beautifully. I am typing this with a grin on my face the likes of which was last there after my first solo, hope this thread is not out of place but I just had to share my experience.
John.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I presume you've done the differences training for taildragger? If so, why the ground loop?

[S205-18F]

Yes but it wasnt in a vintage aircraft with castoring tail wheel, heel brakes and a cross wind. Probable cause was a momentary distraction and missing the brake more practise on type required!

[Them thar hills]

Well done John
For what its worth, I'd pick a day when there's NO crosswind, more like 10kt on the nose. (Not a windless day either)
I'm not a fan of trundling about on the ground !
Once you know what the 3-point attitude looks like, and how the brakes feel, I'd get airborne asap. Or leave it in the hangar.
If you've done a tailwheel conversion there won't be a problem.
Keep smiling !
:O

[shortstripper]

Just out of interest, what reg Luton Minor? I ask as my old group's one, G-BBCY has winged its way north.

Lovely aeroplane with extra controls ... steer by putting arm out into the slipstream :D

SS :ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

So you bought it then! When and where did you do the differences training?

Groundloop? Shouldn't really be inevitable ol' boy. Just get those feet working a bit harder!

[blue up]

Just finishing my engine runs before my first permit renewal. 3 years of rebuild after the previous owner parked it rather heavily. I last flew a single about 10 years ago and have maybe 5 hours on tailwheels.
I've got "grandfather rights" to have them on my licence but would like to get some proper training in.
Left throttle, right hand individual finger brake levers, metal tailskid, no handbrake. I've fitted a shorter prop for my taxying trials!!:} :ok:
So, where to go for tailwheel training?
Any volunteers? I'm in cardiff but can travel.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/foggythomas/fredinclose.jpg

[S205-18F]

Short stripper you will be interested to know it is G-BBCY and it is a very nice aircraft the engine is particularly nice unit very smooth.
SAS I had trouble finding a taildragger to do the training in but managed at Perth. I was Talking to Dai but I think the pitts was out of my league.
Blue Up nice picture I will post a picture when I get round to resizing good luck in your quest for training its not easy to find!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

If you're still asking in a month, drop me a PM - hopefully both of my shares in vintage, difficult to fly taildraggers will be up and running again (both down after, err, problematic annuals right now). I'd gladly swap a few hours for a go in the Luton.

Failing that, let's be honest - you're flying a microlight there - it's weight, drag, probably rather antique flying qualities, are all more microlight than modern aeroplane. The best training is almost certainly going to be in something like a Thruster TST (or better still, an Escapade if you can find a helpful owner, since it has heel-brakes - although not a castoring tailwheel - the nosewheel version is castoring, and quite easy to groundloop).

Try PMing Wyvern or Madambreakneck they both have a lot of experience successfully teaching people to fly such things.

G

N.B. If that's you in the photo, the problem may be that you need to use a few more cushions?

[Lister Noble]

Finished the tailwheel conversion today,in truly excellent conditions.
As opposed to yesterday with a 15 knot 90 degree crosswind,well outside the Cub limits which I found very tricky before we stopped flying!
In all I've done 9hrs 15 mins in the Clacton Cub and throughly enjoyed it,but it has taken several weeks to complete the course due to poor weather and other people booking the Cub,very selfish of them ,I thought;) ;)
Now just need a check ride in the local group Cub and I'm up and away.
This is the start, I hope,of many, many, happy hours flying.(Seems to be a lot of commas in there.)
Lister:) :D

[shortstripper]

You'll be alright then S205-18F :) BBCY is a real lady and will look after you! The castoring tailwheel was never an issue with her as she has a powerful rudder and is very predictable. Her engine has been rebuilt since my days flying her, but it was always ok if treated with respect. my T31m is not unlike her, but does have a rather longer wingspan at 43'


http://www.ivan.pfanet.co.uk/g-bzlk001.jpg


You can't beat this kind of flying for value for money and pure FUN!!!

SS

[S205-18F]

Thanks shortstripper I am certainly impressed with the build quality and finnish except for the cowl but I have been informed a new one is included in the sale. I am of the opinion that I will be a more competent pilot when I have a few more hours under my belt as it is a more demanding arrangement to land than trike set up. At least I will be able to dance better after all the foot moves with the rudder:O

[S205-18F]

Well done lister a man with taste all you need now is the vintage plane to go with the experience:D

[GK430]

Apart from flying in DC-3's, I'd never been in a taildragger until this year when someone kindly took me up for a short scenic trip. Quite enjoyed the experience.
Circumstances had lead me to look for another aircraft to fly for pleasure. I had enjoyed a fast modern six place single but with Avgas prices on the rise was becoming very expensive.
Having spent a few months wondering what I was going to fly I am now in an RV-6 and I am grinning from ear to ear:D :D
I can now see how pilots can get in and out of 450 m runways, enjoy better views over short stubby wings and put the plane just where you want it.

But please.....don't ask me to expedite on the ground:= I AM!;)

[Lister Noble]

Well done lister a man with taste all you need now is the vintage plane to go with the experience:D

I have a share in a US Army Cub that was based in France during WW2 ,still in original colours and markings.
Is that vintage enough?;) ;)
Lister

[S205-18F]

Ok Lister Touche! yes I will accept the Cub, there seems to be more of a following of older aircraft here than we can see on the surface, maybe we will have to create our own sub culture or is it already on the go!
Chocks Away!!!

[Flyin'Dutch']

I started by taxying up and down the runway looking for the inevitable ground loop and sure enough I found it or was it found me

Never quite understood what the rationale was for doing the fast taxying in the process of learning to tame the taildragger.

Just seems to prolong the time of exposure for groundloops in people that have little or no experience.

:sad:

Am I missing something?

[EGBKFLYER]

Flyin' Dutch - Would have agreed with you three weeks ago... However, I have a student at present who was having trouble with the landing roll - fine at touchdown but would over-control as we slowed down. I was persevering with full-stop/ backtrack circuits but not making much headway. A couple of weeks ago, thought I would change tack and try a few fast taxy runs to get some intense practice. In short, it's made all the difference and I'm fairly sure we've cured the issue.

As always, it's horses for courses - I have a wide grass area to play with, so an incipient groundloop can be managed with little problem and in this case, the benefit outweighed the risk...

[S205-18F]

Hi folks I have a grin from ear to ear! Today the conditions were great not perfect but hey its Scotland in September! Fueled up did all the checks 4 pumps of the throttle mags off 4 turns of prop to draw fuel up, chocks checked contact first swing of prop and off she went! Taxied down wind to end of runway turned checked mags checked all surfaces and opened the throttle and off she went wow climb rate was a heady 200 fpm but who cares with the wind in your hair (eek I am bald) and nothing to worry about I dont think flying gets any better!
2 hours flying for a fuel outlay of 18 litres £17.65 yup I like it, motorbiking in the sky!

[shortstripper]

I told you she'd look after you! ... Well done and congratulations :ok:

SS

[S205-18F]

You did SS and she certainly is a lady with no obvious vices! But I was warned not to get too complacent as that is when she will bite if she is going to.

[Crash one]

Great stuff guys. For a rookie stude like me to look forward to.
I want one!!!

[Dark Helmet]

Anyone know who does taildragger conversion courses near Cambridge?

[EGBKFLYER]

I think someone at Cambridge does them? Not sure.

Otherwise www.nsof.co.uk at Peterborough Sibson.

[EGCC4284]

Have You Had The Sim Check

[Dark Helmet]

Have You Had The Sim Check

Sorry, don't quite understand this. What Sim Check?

[EGBKFLYER]

Apologies Dark Helmet - the EGCC was talking to me!

EGCC chk your PMs...

[RTOagain]

I think someone at Cambridge does them? Not sure.
Otherwise www.nsof.co.uk at Peterborough Sibson.

Cambridge had a CAP10B but no longer - I too am looking for tailwheel training and spoke to them about it today. I guess the nearest must be Sibson unless you fancy the Tigers at Cambridge

[Lister Noble]

Anyone know who does taildragger conversion courses near Cambridge?

I did mine at Clacton in a Super Cub,I live in Norfolk and it's probably not too far from Cambridge.
They do a residential 2 day course but I travelled in from home when conditions were good and the aircraft was either booked to me or free.
Lister
:)
PS I've now finished my check rides and can fly the L4 on my own!:D :D :D

[hobbit1983]

Old Sarum also do taildragger courses on the Supercub....I know it's a bit far from Cambridge but the reason I mention it is because I've booked my conversion there in two weekends time!

Having gotten to the airfield once & only getting as far as taxi practice (due to high crosswinds)

I have to ask - what's it like to fly, or any tips generally?

Thanks

[slim_slag]

Hardest part of flying a supercub is moving around on the ground in strong winds so sounds like you have done the tricky bit. It has a ridiculously low demonstrated crosswind, but it has a huge rudder and in practice you can sideslip it down the extended runway centreline in almost any crosswind that you can come up with. It's when you reach the ground the fun begins.

As for flying it, far more fun than a spamcan. I guess the biggest thing you will notice is the roll rate, it is extremely responsive compared to a spam can. You will notice that when you start base-final turns and you end up pointing nowhere near the runway. You can also land it on a sixpence. Once you have worked out how to land the supercub it will help your tricycle landings immensely. Flying the numbers is very important. With the huge rudder it's also very important to coordinate so make sure you can properly roll on a heading (dutch roll type of thing) before you start to do pattern work. IMO.

All in all it's an absolutely superb airplane and real flying (IMO).

[effortless]

Cambridge Flying Group do indeed do conversion training and I can reccommend them highly. They do not overcharge either considering what some others charge for Tigermoth hours. The taxi is interesting as you have to watch for Hercules induced crosswinds on a lumpy grass taxyway. Lovely people Google for them.

[High Wing Drifter]

Old Sarum also do taildragger courses on the Supercub....I know it's a bit far from Cambridge but the reason I mention it is because I've booked my conversion there in two weekends time!
That's where I did my conversion. The Supercub is great, except for the heel brakes! They also have the second runway for practicing high speed ground handling (take-off acceleration and slow down without actually taking off).

[TheBeeKeeper]

Less than an hour away from Cambridge you will find Henlow Flying Club, they have a Tiger Moth and a Chipmunk for Tail-dragger conversions.

Bit of a pain getting on site for the first time, but once that is sorted you'll find a couple of great aircraft to fly and an interesting hanger full of privately owned toys.... Tigers, Leopard Moths, Jackaroo etc...

TBK

[hobbit1983]

Thanks for the responses; Yeah, the crosswinds made things interesting whilst taxiing...I thought I was doing quite well until I had to turn through more than 45deg...!

Hoping the course will improve my landings. Looking forward to flying something a bit more interesting than the average spamcan. As far as I can tell so far however, the most difficult part of the conversion is getting in the front seat!

[Dark Helmet]

Thank you all for your responses. I will certainly do a bit more research.

[HAL-26]

Sorry its taken me so long to congratulate you, S205-18F, on joining the ranks of Luton aviators!

Having spent about 100 hours over the past couple of years jammed twix fuselage and wing (only people who've tried to enter a Luton will understand that!), I know how much fun you'll be having!

One piece of pertinant advice though that was drummed into me when I first bought my aeroplane. PLEASE use a picket to tie the tail down when starting, even if you've got the stick tied back. The Luton has a tailwheel weight of only 22 pounds, and its amazing how fast the tail will come up if you've got too many revs.

I escaped the fate, but I've seen two other Minors with cropped propellors in the past two years!

How about a "rookie's tale" for the Luton Minor website www.lutonminor.com (http://www.lutonminor.com) ?

PS. I can fully recommend Henlow Flying CLub and CFI Joe Wrights patience in a bouncing Tiger Moth too!
Steve

[S205-18F]

Hi HAL-26 Thanks for the good wishes, I have noted your advice on tying the tail down and I did wonder about it. There are 2 Lutons at Errol my own one G-BBCY and G-ATCJ. I will write a short note about being a Luton newbie and I have visited your site it is most informative. I also appreciate your comment about getting into the Luton then being between the wing and cockpit it is cosy!!!

[HAL-26]

I also appreciate your comment about getting into the Luton then being between the wing and cockpit it is cosy!!!

Just to illustrate, for those who haven't experienced the joys of the "Luton legover" technique for boarding.

http://www.lutonminor.com/legover.htm

If you think that's fun, just wait till the throttle goes up your trouser leg as you're half way in!:eek:

[S205-18F]

Hi Folks I am just back from Errol and flying today we had all the taildraggers out .Tom with G-ATCJ Luton minor, G-BBCY Luton minor, G-FOXG a kitfox and a streak shadow. I have photos of the line up but am not sure of how to up load them here. I wish I had read the "how to get into a Luton minor" article before I tried today, it is difficult if you dont have the knack. I will post the pictures soon.