When to give up

[mad_bear]

Hi folks

I hope this is the right forum for this sort of question. Apologies if not.

I've recently started learning to fly, probably a bit later in life than most people (40-something). I've read some people's postings about their learning experiences, and I have to say that it's disheartened me a bit -- I'm not making anything like the same kind of progress that most people seem to. I appreciate that I've only flown four hours, but at that stage some people seem to be ready, perhaps with considerable assistance, to attempt takeoffs and landings. I can just about manage to keep the plane in roughly a straight line; anything more seems like a distant dream.

I guess this is partly the result of my age, but the fact that I don't have a lot of skill in the coordination or balance department doesn't help any.

I'm not expecting to be Biggles after a few hours in the air, but at the same time I can't spend an unlimited time learning to fly -- I just don't have the money. I will count it a failure if I spend a great deal of money, and yet never learn to fly well enough even to achieve a PPL. On the other hand, if I pack it in now, well, I've had a good time and I haven't spent a vast sum of money. Naturally my instructors are reassuring, and point out that just about anybody can do it in the end, with sufficient effort. That would be fine if I had a limitless supply of time and money, but I don't.

So my question is this, really: at what point will I be able to determine if my lack of progress is such that becoming competent before backruptcy is unlikely? How long did it take other people to start to feel that they were in control of the plane, and not the other way around? Is there anything one can do on the ground that contributes in any way to better success in the air?

I have no difficulty with the theoretical aspects, or with navigation, or procedures. It just doesn't feel like I will ever be able to master the important stuff -- flying the plane properly.

Any advice gratefully received. Thanks.

[BoeingMEL]

1: Your age should absolutely NOT prevent you from reaching PPL standard within a reasonable period...but your poor co-ordination might.
2: Personally I would have your next couple of hours at a different club or school.... it is just possible that your present instructor is not ideal for your particular needs.
3: Don't give up without a fight......... but IF 2 or more instructors hint or say that you're going to struggle.... keep the remnants of your dignity and £££££££££!

Good Luck anyway, BM:sad:

[Lister Noble]

I am 63 and got my licence a few weeks after my birthday this May, I started in August last year.
Took me ages to go solo,ie around 18 hrs but finished PPL in 53 hrs.
Instructors make a hell of a difference,it all depends whether you gel or not,they may be brilliant with other people,you may like them ,but they don't work for you.
As suggested try another instructor or even a different school but don't give up hope yet!
Lister:)

[mad_bear]

Thanks. As it happens, I have some time booked with a different instructor next week, so I'll see what happens.

But really the problem is that no instructor has even remotely hinted that I won't succeed. I'm just comparing my (unremarkable) progress with that of other student pilots. But I presume that flying schools won't lose a paying customer without a fight, and it's not in their interests to be other than encouraging.

I guess the question I need to answer is impossible to answer: how much is it going to cost me to get to test-passing standard? I decided, on no very exact grounds, that I was prepared to spend 6,000 pounds on training and the equipment that goes with it. But I'm a reasonably successful, middle-aged family man, with absolutely nothing to prove, and I can easily find fun things to do with the 5,500 currently left in the kitty. I wouldn't want to spend all my money, and still not be anywhere in sight of completing the training.

What I'm wondering is if there's some way to predict how long it will take to succeed, based on a measure of progress over the first ten hours or so?

[dublinpilot]

I have to agree. Your age should not be a problem at all.

I too think it may be more of an instructor issue. Some instructors are the nicest people in the world, but aren't very good at getting the necessary information across to their students.

I had a number of instructors in my training. Looking back I think I was very lucky that my principal instructor was excellent at getting the required info across to me, in a way that I easily understood.

I had a number of other instructors, that I didn't learn anything from. My PPL could have taken a very long time if it was done mainly with one of them. Some of these instructors were the nicest of people, and some of the other students really liked their methods......but they just didn't teach in a way that I learnt.

Try a different instructor/school. Much better than giving up. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to attain a PPL.

dp

[dublinpilot]

Looking at the costs, and saying I have £6,000 to spend on training is the wrong way of looking at it in my view.

When you get your licence the bills don't stop.....they continue on as before.

A much better way of looking at it, is saying how much am I willing to spend on flying each year. If you can't afford (or don't want to spend) to continue flying regularly after you get your PPL, then I don't see the point in getting the licence.

Set aside in your own mind, how much you are willing to spend each year.....then it becomes a matter not of how much will it cost me to get the licence, but more a question of when will I be able to forget about bringing an instructor, and be able to go by myself wherever I want.

dp

[vulcanpilot]

You've done 4 hours. You really cannot make a judgement that you CANNOT fly after 4 hours. How long did it take you to learn to drive? I seem to recall at 17 I had stacks of lessons.

My philosophy was that after a few trial lessons, I really ENJOYED the experience so I was going to give it a go. I was VERY daunted by the theory (initially) and scared myself to death reading lots of the books and stuff.

After a good few lessons whereby I was handling the aircraft, I began to calm down and feel more comfortable - but I had real problems landing - never consistent - sometimes driving into the runway, sometimes (mostly) flaring much too high. Then one day it just clicked - and its a bit like riding a bike - it will stay with you.

Try not to worry too much about the end result now, unless you are really doing the course on a very tight budget - I didn't complete in the (then) 40 hours as I had decided to stretch the whole thing out and enjoy the learning experience. Some of the 'johnny's' at the club wanted to finish in a week and actually ended up as not so good/safe pilots (IMHO).

In my day (not that long ago), solo was expected at about 10 to 15 hours of dual. Perhaps you need to have a good chat with your instructor (you do only have one instructor & you have hit it off, haven't you?) and tell him your worries. And get a full debrief after each lesson. Then when approaching 10 hours or so, get him to evaluate where you are towards going solo and compared to the average for the club.

I would also urge you to insist on 1-2-1 instruction with the same instructor. Chopping and changing instructors doesn't help as they will each want to revisit what the other has done with you. 2 steps forward, 1 back etc...

Keep at it. If you REALLY want to fly, then you will be able to.

Good luck.

Mark.

[Whirlybird]

Oh, for goodness sake!!!!! And I was going to say something far, far stronger! You have FOUR hours!!!!! That is absolutely nothing!!!!!! I couldn't fly straight and level at four hours. Neither can lots of people. I was about your age, yes, but age has bugger all to do with it, really. People learn at different rates, that's all.

Now, as an instructor - on helicopters, but I started with fixed-wing - if one of my students asked me after they'd done four hours flying how long it would take them to get a PPL, I wouldn't have a clue. What do you think we instructors are, psychic or something? We know that different people learn at amazingly different rates. We know that some people start quickly, and then get stuck later on, and vice-versa. We know it doesn't really matter, and that practically anyone can learn to fly, if they really want to. A huge amount of crap gets discussed on PPRuNe about hours, and hours to solo, and who's doing what at what stage, and I'm a better pilot than you cos I soloed in ten minutes and so on. Most people who can land after four hours are being helped, believe me. It's dead easy to give the controls a little tweak here and there, to give some young lad confidence and make him feel good. Maybe your instructors thought at your age you had more sense and they didn't need to fool you - ever thought of that? Or there was the lad at the flying school today, telling everyone he was in the circuit after four hours; of course he was; with a 600 ft cloudbase we could only do circuits or hover. But it wasn't proving anything except that the weather was crap and he had an instructor with imagination.

However, I agree with dublinpilot - if you only have £6000 to spend on flying, ever, pack it in now. What's the point of getting a PPL and not being able to fly afterwards? What are you doing now? Flying. What will you do when you have your PPL? Fly. There is little difference.

So stop comparing yourself with others, and fly if you want to and can afford to, and stop if you don't.

Oh, and if you really want to know, it took me well over 40 hours to go solo on fixed-wing, and there are people on PPRune who took longer than that. We just tend not to advertise the fact, that's all. Maybe we should, to redress the balance. And you know what? A year or two later, when you're off on your first continental flying trip or whatever, it'll be of no importance whatsoever.

[mad_bear]

However, I agree with dublinpilot - if you only have £6000 to spend on flying, ever, pack it in now. What's the point of getting a PPLand not being able to fly afterwards? What are you doing now? Flying. What will you do when you have your PPL? Fly. There is little difference.

So stop comparing yourself with others, and fly if you want to and can afford to, and stop if you don't.


Thank you for the advice, which I appreciate, although it isn't what I wanted to hear :)

The plain fact is that I want to, but can't really afford to. I'm flying now because I realize that, although I can barely afford to, I'll never be more able to afford to than I currently am. I'm flying because I always wanted to fly, because my earliest memories are of wanting to fly, not because I can afford to do it on a long-term basis. Of course, if I win the Lottery or (hah!) get a big pay rise, that may change.

You're right, of course, in that if I can't afford to fly long-term, it makes little difference whether I can get a PPL or not before the money I can justify spending on this runs out.

As an aside, it was the introduction of the NPPL licence scheme that set me off thinking that flying might be something I could just about afford. If one can get and maintain a licence in 32 hours or so training plus six hours a year, that is something that even I could afford. But I now know that virtually nobody could learn to fly competently in 32 hours; and I suspect that one couldn't maintain competence in six hours a year. So why are these hours stipulated??

[Gertrude the Wombat]

But really the problem is that no instructor has even remotely hinted that I won't succeed.
After four hours??

(In my case an instructor did start to worry that it was taking him too long to teach me the last few seconds of the landing, but I reassured him that I'd expected that, being sufficiently lacking in stuff like hand-eye coordination that I wasn't any good at ball games and so on. But that was at lots more than four hours and I got there in the end.)

[tiggermoth]

Good luck in your flight training. Keep at it.

It's a good thing that you may feel dissapointed with your progress at times, becasue it will make to want to learn even more. Don't get disheartened. You'll have plenty of good days and bad days.

Don't worry what the other student pilots are up to. Who cares if they go solo after 10 hours? If it takes you 20 hours to go solo, then so be it. The feeling that you've really worked for it will make it the more rewarding!

Happy landings,
Tiggermoth

[fox golf]

Have you considered learning on motor gliders?
You can get a NPPL for about £3,500 that way (about 55 hours).
Then you can simply do a type conversion to group A if you want to.
Forget doing it in 35 hours - you won't get a NPPL licence in any less time than a PPL licence but you can do it in cheap stuff like motor gliders.
Hinton in the hedges is fairly cheap, if you can get there.

[bencoulthard]

I have about 8 hours and I still wander in straighish and levelish.

How many driving lessons did you have? I bet you didn't think about how bad you were 10% of the way through those, you just thought book another lesson and get the test done.

Don't worry about it too much, just enjoy it for what it is, and don't compare yourself to others, some start slow and figure it out in the end, others start fast and never make it.
The likes of me and you start slow and stay slow :O

[Final 3 Greens]

Mad Bear

You are absolutely right to think the way you do and brave too.

It is too early to worry yet, but if you are still not happy in another 5/6 hours, perhaps you could consider always flying with an instructor and not gaining your PPL.

That way, you could still enjoy flying.

Whichever way it works out, good luck.

[Mike Cross]

Think back to when you were learning to drive.

You could steer or you could change gear, but not both at the same time. Learning to fly is a bit like that. Eventually it will click.

Don't pay a whole lot of attention to those who tell you that the expense is the same after you have your license - it isn't. For a start you don't have to pay for an Instructor to be up with you. Secondly you don't have to fly from a licensed aerodrome in an aircraft maintained to Public Tranport standards. Lots of people do, but it's certainly not mandatory. You don't even have to learn in that environment, you could get a PPL(M) flying from an unlicensed field on a Permit aircraft.

On the other hand, if you're not enjoying the experience don't let your pride get in the way of calling it a day. Do it because you enjoy it, not because you are trying to prove something.

Mike

[J.A.F.O.]

We're supposed to do straight lines? :confused:

If you enjoy flying then fly; who cares if it's solo, dual, licensed, SEP, microlight, powered glider thingies?

If you don't enjoy it then that's easy.

Oh, and always, always take Whirly's advice.

[Humaround]

If money is tight, gaining a PPL is not the only way to fly. Gliding is much cheaper in the learning stages, but rather time-consuming. You could do a gliding course for a few hundred pounds, and fly solo at the end of it.

The most expensive flying I did was gaining the PPL. i spent around £6,500 in 18 months. Since then, I have been flying about 75 hours a year for a total cost of about £2,500 a year, with a share in a PFA type, from a farm strip. It's a total blast. I have friends who spend considerably more on their golf and sailing habits.

Oh, and I was 53 when I got the PPL.

If you really want to fly, you will find a way to do it.

Good luck. :)

[Cusco]

Hang on in there:

I started to learn to fly age 48 with a view to getting my licence by age 50.

I had a sh*te first ten hours, but then it all seemed to come together aided I'm sure by having the same instructor for about 85% of my training (thanks Will)

I (thanks to a particularly mild English winter) got the licence in six months Oct-March.

That was 13 years ago and it just goes on getting better: I'm now retired and can fly all hours God sends instead of being at the mercy of weekends and on-call rotas.

Like everyone else has said four hours ain't nuffink: start to get worried when after 40 hours you're still not doing the take-off.

(only joking)

Safe flying

Cusco

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree with everything said, above, but thought I'd put my own slant on it.

I've flown more different types of flying machines than most - and every single one was great fun. Microlights, gliders, motorgliders, light aeroplanes, fighters, helicopters - loved them all. But the cost isn't constant, so stick within your means. If you can get twice the flying by going for something cheaper, forget the snob value and do it: particularly if your budget is limited.

Secondly, you are going for hobby flying. I have two hobbies: flying and Jiu Jitsu, both of which I'm reputed to have some skill at. Both of them I enjoyed learning, the latter I teach (and the former people seem to regularly come to me for advice for some strange reason, although I'm not formally an instructor). Yet both, I regularly go and spend time with teachers of all sorts, learning more, improving myself, developing skills. Learning is FUN, as well as regularly frustrating - it also never stops until you do. So, my advice would be not to get hung up on a specific objective - treat learning to fly as your hobby, budget to do it at a rate and in an environment that you can manage, and have FUN.

Do it that way, and you'll probably learn faster anyway - as well as enjoying yourself more. When you get to a licence (of whatever form) you'll be less supervised, but still having fun, and still learning.


Incidentally, I've been flying for 17 years, and practicing Jiu Jitsu for 18 - and have firmly reached the conclusion that I'll never master either. This worries me - because it means that my time to practice both is limited and I wish it wasn't. But not that much.

G

Edited to say, I have a student at the moment - in my Jiu Jitsu club. He is a yellow belt, agonising over the fact that his inability to perform a particular technique (forward rolling Ukemi for those in the know) is stopping him making orange belt - sounding not entirely unlike mad_bear!. In the meantime, he's one of my best students - everything else he's doing is developing brilliantly, and by the time he's cracked that he'll probably leapfrog orange and make green belt! Anybody see anything wrong with that? I don't, he's just an individual, and thus on an individual learning curve.

[JackOffallTrades]

Mad Bear,

Don't worry, I spent the first 4 hours just trying to find a way in to the cockpit.

Good luck sir.

[ChampChump]

Always, always heed what J.A.F.O. advises above: Whirly's right.
I have nothing wise to add to that already said, but would like to add my 2d's worth anyway. Since you've indicated you've always wanted to fly, I think that once you get past the feeling that in four hours you haven't learnt anything, you'll probably become so absorbed you just won't notice that it gets into the blood and under the fingernails and - oops - there you are - totally addicted.
Few of us can afford it. We just find ways of doing it. Gliding, motor gliding, shares in a Permit aeroplane, microlights...exploiting new friends (yes, they come with the package and they're free) are but a few examples that come to mind. It might not be easy if you have family commitments, but casual conversations with colleagues at work suggest that we all have different perceptions of what is necessary for the soul once the body is supported - and what we are prepared to pay. Those with a passion, whether it be for fishing, golf or jet skiing, seem to do more on less and are happier for it. Unscientific and simplistic, I know, but I suspect you're already headed in this direction and you know it.
It took me about forty glider flights to acquire four hours and I had a wide selction of instructors to boot. I was probably too stupid to analyse it, but if I had, I'd have not reached a more settled learning phase which led, over the years, to where I am now: plenty of time logged and still as daft as a brush, but with fond memories of each phase of my flying. It all just grew, like Topsy.
What's a little odd is that when I began, I coudn't really afford the gliding lessons. Now I can't really afford the Avgas. Curious, 'cos I've been flying throughout.
Please spend a bit more money then come back to us.

[drauk]

Don't know where you are based (your profile says "London") but if you fancy a flight from North London you're welcome to come along with me for free when I am not doing anything more specific. Don't know if it'll help much, though at least you can practise flying straight and level for free. I do have an autopilot but it isn't voice activated.

Put another way, if you decide to give it all up at least you can get airborne and if you decide to keep going I can at least show you an easy way to get Notams...

[Andy_RR]

I have found in my (so far) short flying career, that when a specific skill has been difficult to master, it's because I have not grasped, or am not using a fundamental concept.

For example:

taxiing - looking towards the horizon, rather than straight in front of the aircraft

turning accurately in the circuit - picking my horizon reference point on the wing before I commence the turn

bouncing on take off (tailwheel) - getting the stick forward before opening the throttle!

losing directional control on landing (tailwheel) - keep that stick right back!!!!

PFL's - getting and keeping the 30-45° view to the landing point

X-wind landings - know and understand (and don't forget!) what each of the controls really does for you on finals.

etc.

I'm sure some people's description of the 'key skill' will be different, but if you are struggling with something, then recognise that you have missed a key element, try to find out what it is and then focus on that element for a couple of tries - even if your instructor is helping with some of the other tasks.

As an example, my confidence in X-wind landings got a huge boost when my tailwheel check pilot took me to one of his mate's strip that had a 20-25 knot X-wind and made me approach and fly down the strip without landing. We probably could never have landed the thing without a ground loop at the end, but the exageration of all the control inputs required really helped drive home what everything was for.

Last of all - dream through each skill in your idle moments! Even virtual practice makes perfect (I think! - I'll tell you if I get there! ;))

Don't give up!

A

[Whirlybird]

mad bear,

As an aside, it was the introduction of the NPPL licence scheme that set me off thinking that flying might be something I could just about afford. If one can get and maintain a licence in 32 hours or so training plus six hours a year, that is something that even I could afford. But I now know that virtually nobody could learn to fly competently in 32 hours; and I suspect that one couldn't maintain competence in six hours a year. So why are these hours stipulated??

OK, now I know where you're coming from. :ok:

I think what you're doing is putting extraordinary pressure on yourself to do the PPL in minimum hours because you can't really afford it. I really, really wish people didn't have to do that, and many do. You can't relax because you're worrying about all the money you're burning.....and guess what, you can't learn to fly unless you relax! :{

mad bear, you just have to take the pressure off yourself. I wrote what I did yesterday after a hard day's instructing, and I was really too tired to think clearly. Although I meant most of it, it was a little too black and white. Don't, whatever you do, believe those who say you should always listen to Whirly!!!!!! But as you'll hopefully have realised by now, four hours isn't enough to know how long it'll take you to get your PPL. OK, maybe it'll take you the UK average of 60-70 hours, or maybe more; it took me 90 hours to get my PPL(A).

Option 1. Chill out. Enjoy the flying. When you run out of money, go away and save some more. You're young - people learn to fly in their 50s, 60s, and 70s. What's the rush?

Option 2. Switch to gliders or microlights, which are a bit cheaper.

Option 3. Borrow the money to get your PPL(A), then get a share in a permit aircraft, or switch to microlights then, or ask on here about all the other cheaper ways to fly.

Option 4. Buy lots of lottery tickets.;) :)

I suspect others will give you more options.:ok:

As for the minimum hours requirement, remember it's a legal minimum. Some of those people will have flown other types of machines, or be ex-military, or been flying as passengers in parents' aircraft since they were born or something. You're got to have a legal minimum somewhere. Though many agree with you that 32 hours is ridiculous. And the six hours a year? Again, you've got to have a legal minimum. As a helicopter pilot, I reckon I can just about maintain my fixed-wing currency to fly non-demanding aircraft in nice weather on about a hour every couple of months, so long as I realise my limitations. Why should I have to do more because some other people need to? The problem is that people perceive the legal minimum as what everyone can do, and they're very different.

OH, just BTW, people do occasionally win the lottery and learn to fly. One of my helicopter students won a cool million and a half. And there's penniless little me (all my dosh went on helicopter training) giving him advice on what helicopter to buy!

[Rans Flyer]

Some have hinted on it, but I would take some time and really think about doing a NPPL on fixed wing microlight.

Plus points are:

1. You can get a licence in 25 hours (most people do it in 30).
2. The theory is a lot simpler.
3. Lessons are cheaper.
4. You can buy a fixed wing microlight from £3500! And if you train in your own aircraft the lessons are usually £45 per hour.
5. You can buy into schemes where for a small cash investment, you can hire a decent 4 stroke microlight for £30 per hour wet!
6. You can fold the wings up, put it on a trailer and keep it at home, or pay less for hangerage.
7. Running cost is small (I use 14lph in the cruise at maximum weight).
8. Landing fees are cheaper (Sandown is £6).
9. Modern Microlights can cruise at 140kts, and have more room than a 152.
10. You can maintain it yourself.

Negative points:

1. Microlights can only take 2 people.
2. You are restricted to Daytime VFR flying.
3. Weight can be an issue in some Microlights (my Rans S6 can carry 30 stone of occupants and 3 hours of fuel).
4. As it's a permit aircraft (and an NPPL-M licence ), you will need to get written permission to fly abroad (I’m off to Africa next year).

Running costs based on my Rans S6ES 582.

Fuel/oil = £14 per hour.
Permit = £180 PA
Insurance = £622 PA
Maintenance = average £130 PA
Costs of keeping it at a small strip can range between £30 - £150 per month.


So for £6,000 you could have a licence and your own plane! It might not be the prettiest or fastest thing at the airfield, but it gets you in the air, and really thats all that matters ;)

Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk

[shortstripper]

All brilliant advice, esp Rans flyer's bit. Mind you you could do the same with motor gliders or for slightly more by buying your own PFA type and training in it (but that's probably a step too far in most cases).

It does worry me though, that we all seem to think that you have to have money to continue flying after you gain your PPL and that if you don't that you shouldn't bother. Rubbish! Like Paris Dakar say's, so what if there are periods that you can't afford it? Or even if you never fly again! I know at least one person who learned to fly because he saw it a challenge, gained a lot from the experience but was happy to walk away at the end and never fly again. We all have different motivations and we all have our own minds, so take all the advice and cherry pick the bits that suit your situation.

Have fun and don't beat yourself up if progress seems slow at times.

SS :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yes, I think that Ransflyer is right.

Microlighting is often misunderstood. Many people think it's dangerous (only if you are), about flying the lightest thing possible (only if you want to), or about flying the simplest rag-and-tube aeroplanes (it can be, but needn't).

Microlight flying is about flying as cheaply as possible, with the minimum restrictions on you - if budget is limited, you've no intention to become an airline pilot, and you just want to have as much fun as possible airborne, then flying a microlight is the way ahead.

I'm not going to provide anybody with free advertising, but I just looked up the website of a well know microlight school an hour's drive from London. It's helpfully very detailed about costs, although I suspect not the cheapest.

Full training, club, equipment, examination etc. : this comes out at £3,447 for a full licence course.

£1,777-£3,650k buys you a share in an aeroplane looked after by them + £20/month syndicate costs once you've got you licence, + £39/hr for your flying.

So, going for the cheaper aeroplane (a Cyclone AX3 - slow and ugly, but easy and pleasant to fly), your £6k would cover your licence course (okay, assuming you do it in minimum hours), a share in an aeroplane, another year of fixed running costs on the aeroplane, and another 13 flying hours.

http://www.microlightflyingschool.co.uk/fleet-ax3L.jpg

Add £2k, and you can either have your own aeroplane outright, or buy a share in something that'll probably outperform what you've been learning on so far...

http://www.microlightflyingschool.co.uk/fleet-icarus-c42.jpg


Or you could, with care, go a few grand cheaper - learning and continuing to fly something older and more basic (but I hasten to add, equally safe) and spend what's left over on even more flying.

G

[S-Works]

Jesus I have 2000hrs and cant fly straight and level........


Dont despair, it will click and you will stop worrying. Flying is about the challenge and expanding your personal envelope. Keep working it at and you will become as hooked as the rest of us!!!

[mad_bear]

Thanks to everybody for the advice, which is much appreciated.

I did consider microlights, etc., but I suspect I'm too tall, to wide, and too heavy. I'm 6'5'' tall, 3 feet wide, and weight about 19st :) In a Cessna 172, with the seat wound right down and pushed right back, I can just about get in, with about an inch clearance over my head. Quite honestly, I would be happy to fly anything. But I've got to be able to fit in it.

[Saab Dastard]

Just back from the Gat Bash, so rather woozy -

Best thing I was told at the initial stages (and later as well) is that the aeroplane is designed to fly straight and level - let it! It requires a certain "leap of faith", but literally letting go of the controls entirely and allowing the aeroplane to fly itself usually works out much better than pushing and pulling it all over the sky! (Subject to caveats about trim, turbulence, & rudder trim etc.)

The trick is finding out how little you have to do, not how much.

Also, as an observation, not a criticism, you seem to be mentally preparing yourself for failure, rather than success!

SD

[Crash one]

I'm 66, started 2 months ago, so far after 16 hrs, went solo on Friday.
last week at 14 hrs I was still landing way left of centreline, drifting, nose wheel first etc, even nearly stalled on climbout, 55 kt, then it all seemed to click.
Stick with it, don't get disheartened this early. As for the budget Iv'e put 4K down but I don't think I'll make that, your 6K looks more possible.
Good luck

Trevor

[shortstripper]

I'm 66, started 2 months ago, so far after 16 hrs, went solo on Friday.
last week at 14 hrs I was still landing way left of centreline, drifting, nose wheel first etc, even nearly stalled on climbout, 55 kt, then it all seemed to click.

Brilliant Crash! well done you!

I remember learning to waterski! I just couldn't get it ... then one day everything just clicked? still don't know what it was but it all came together!

SS

[Crash one]

Brilliant Crash! well done you!

I remember learning to waterski! I just couldn't get it ... then one day everything just clicked? still don't know what it was but it all came together!

SS

I wouldn't like to take credit unduly, I did fly gliders 20+ yrs ago & took 4 hrs power at that time inc ex 14, so I was a bit miffed at myself for "losing" it & taking so long to get it back.
Instructor said it was quite normal but then when I did it the first time he was barely on solids which I also find embarrassing. However, done now & chuffed to bits.

Trevor

[Rans Flyer]

I did consider microlights, etc., but I suspect I'm too tall, to wide, and too heavy. I'm 6'5'' tall, 3 feet wide, and weight about 19st :)

My old 503 powerd Rans (stacks of head room) could haul 31 stone with full fuel. You just need to find a 12stone instructor! :)

I'm not sure about other types, but there's 4 thrusters for sale on www.afors.co.uk for less than £5K (2 of 'em are £4K ono), thats cheep flying.

Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk

[Whirlybird]

mad bear,

Don't make assumptions about microlights; do some research. There's another 6ft 5in microlight flyer around that I keep hearing about. I believe Genghis knows him and could confirm this, and also tell you loads more about microlights...where is he when he's needed?!!!!!!

[the dean]

like everybody tells you...at four hours you are not in a position to make any judgements about you flying...thats the function of your instructor.

you are being too hard on yourself and it will reflect in your flying.

lighten up and stop expecting too much too soon.put your faith in your instructor/s.

in my experience...the older you are the longer it takes to acquire the skill but you will get there and in the end remember that even if it takes a little longer it still adds to your experience.

enjoy what you are doing....your flying will be better for it.

good straight and level is one of the most difficult things to do properly.you will get a lot of fun out of the challange and your flying long term will be the better for it.

do'nt forget good straight and level is achieved by having your eyes outside the cockpit 8 out of every 10 seconds and 2 checking the dashboard...and most importent...trim it out .

as one contribitor said...the aircraft was built to fly..( if you were you would have feathers ). it knows how to do it..so do'nt overcontrol it...just control it.feel what the aircraft is telling you but do'nt allow it to do what it wants.

so take it slow and leave the worrying to your instructor|s...if they feel you are wasting your money i am sure they will tell you but even for them its too soon...so how could you possibly make a meaningful decision at this stage.

good luck and do'nt worry...:ok:

[effortless]

Training: are you having fun? If yes then continue and enjoy it, if no then stop. Try different types and clubs. Go to Cambidge Flying Group for a trial lesson. You'll get the best part of an hour for a ton in a Tiger Moth. Even if you don't qualify you will have a ball. My mate had ten types in his log book and forty ours before he soloed. He still hasn't qualified for medical reasons but he gets about ten hours a year dual.

Cost: Slingsby, find a gliding club with one. It will cost you a couple of hundred a year membership but flying will cost you about sixty per hour. This will usually include instruction.

[cessna l plate]

Couple of different ways of looking at it.

Yes, money is an issue, it always will be as, let's be honest, this is not the worlds cheapest hobby. What has been said before is true, budget to fly an amount of hours every year, either training or post training. It doesn't matter if it takes you 10 years to pass a skills test, the end result is still the same. The only thing to take into account is do you like flying?? If the answer to this is yes, and trust me it gets more addictive the more you do, then carry on. No-one cares how many hours you take to get your ppl, and those that do fall into the "bold pilot" category. Law of the playground, my bike's better than yours sort of thing. Who cares, both bikes do the same job. Forget the legal mins, that is what they are, a minimum. Put this way, it is possible to turn up at a driving test centre on your 17th birthday and pass a driving test, not really plausible, but possible. Who is the better driver, the lad who did that, or the guy that had 25 hours training before test?

To make this understandable to you, lets look at something everyone knows about, driving. Lesson1, controls. Student goes nowhere. Lesson2, straight line driving and simple turns. It's all the student can do to change one gear. That would account for, in todays learning enviroment, for about 3 hours. You are at a similar stage in learning to fly. Straight and level, like all exercises will come with practice. That said pilot induced oscilation happens to all of us, those approaching test like me, or 2000 hour pilots. Don't worry about it, honestly! It is a known fact that your age does play a part in training hours. Driving instructors use the 1 hour for each year principal. a teenager will go through test in about 20 hours, a 40 year old is looking at 35 - 40 hours. Nothing against your age, it is a simple fact of nature, and different people learn different skills at different rates.

I was at about 22 hours before I went solo. I know a guy who was solo at 15 hours. He has so far spent 10 hours on dual nav training and still doesn't get it. My instructor is happy to send me off on solo nav after about 5 hours at it dual. All horses for courses.

The are a few things to remember. Don't count the money, if you can't afford it wait until you can, even if that means a couple of hours a year. You will learn at your pace, and everyone gets hung up on something. Normally landing or nav, maybe your hang up is S&L and you will whizz (notice I didn't say fly) through the rest of it! This hobby is more addictive and more expensive than any drug, once bitten you will never let go. I took my first lesson in 1990. I came back to flying in 2000. I ran out of money again in 2002. I have just come back to it on a limited budget like you. I am prepared to stop flying after I qualify, and just do what little I can.

Now a question, how often are you actually getting airboune? Curreny is the key, if you go up every week, there will be less skills to brush up before the next topic. Fly once a month and you will spend a great deal of that lesson covering and refreshing what has gone before. There comes a point when the S&L will be second nature, and something else will take your attnetion.

Above anything else, do it for fun, if it isn't fun why do it? If that means never getting a licence and flying with an instructor twice a year, then accept that as your version of aviating, I know people that do that.

Good luck

[Nil Flaps]

Bear, check your PM's.

As an addition, vulcanpilot's early experience sounds v. similar to my own now. Have to disagree with Whirly's comments about the 6K though. Even if you blew that amount and couldn't afford it afterwards, it'd still be the most enjoyable 6 grand you could've blown.

But given you're a fairly successful businessman in your forties, you can afford it.

Can't say I'm successful at my age but I still manage it somehow!

[mad_bear]

But given you're a fairly successful businessman in your forties, you can afford it.


I wish :) Like most people my age, I have substantial outgoings -- the mortgage company takes most of my earnings and the kids (bless 'em) take the rest. All my expenditure has to be approved by the domestic financial planning committee, i.e., my wife. I'm not short of money, despite the mortgage, etc., but my family all have ideas how it should be deployed -- dull things that don't involve flying, like holidays, school trips, extensions to the house, saving for university fees, the usual stuff.

I have negotiated the expenditure of 6,000 pounds on flying over the next 12 months. Taking out the cost of equipment, examination fees, insurance, books, etc., leaves me with enough for about 40 hours of Cessna172+instructor time. I'll probably be able to get, say, 1,000 pounds per year after that.

My original plan was to spend the six grand all at once on lessons -- at least two a week -- in the hope of qualifying for a PPL before it ran out, and accept that I might then not be able to fly again for a year. But from what other people have said, that increasingly sounds like a bad plan. I've been quite surprised, from the preceeding posts, how long most people take to get to qualifiying standard. Even if I were more-than-usually competent, and I have no reason to think I am, it seems that hoping to qualify in 40 hrs is optimistic. In any event, combined with my work obligations and decreasing hours of daylight, the crappy weather at the moment is limiting me to one flight a week.

I'm coming around to the idea that spreading my expenditure over a longer period of time is more sensible. I could certainly afford one hour's flying every 2-3 weeks for the foreseeable future, but that means it would be several years at least before I got to PPL qualifying standard, if I ever did; and being the driven, goal-directed kind of person I am, that's a hard nut to swallow.

But life is about compromises, I guess.

[mad_bear]

mad bear,
Don't make assumptions about microlights; do some research. There's another 6ft 5in microlight flyer around that I keep hearing about. I believe Genghis knows him and could confirm this, and also tell you loads more about microlights...where is he when he's needed?!!!!!!

I don't think I'm making assumptions -- I'm aware that there are microlights that can carry 30st or so. I'm just not sure how to begin a conversation with a microlighting instructor: ``Hi. How much do you weigh?'' :)

I'm certainly not anti-microlight. I often see them fly over my house (near Watford, North London), but when I've looked whistfully upwards, my wife's reaction has been ``Don't even think about it!'' I'm aware that the safety record for MLs isn't really any different from that of light aircraft, but my wife doesn't know that.

If there are microlight schools in the North London/Herts area, that are like to have big machines and small instructors, I'd be more than happy to give it a go, if I can overcome the wifely disapproval.

[cessna l plate]

Wfely dissapproval. Let me put it this way, I have heard the following phrases within the last 12 months

"You love that plane more than me"
"You are having an affair, only she has wings"
"You'd love me more if I had wings"

Trust me, whatever you fly, get used to it

[Mad Girl]

In any event, combined with my work obligations and decreasing hours of daylight, the crappy weather at the moment is limiting me to one flight a week.
Nothing wrong with that…. Because of work commitments I can only fly on Saturday’s – WX permitting - and so do a lot of other people.

I could certainly afford one hour's flying every 2-3 weeks for the foreseeable future, but that means it would be several years at least before I got to PPL qualifying standard, if I ever did; and being the driven, goal-directed kind of person I am, that's a hard nut to swallow.
Tell me about it !!!

Success in your professional life DOESN'T mean success in your flying life.
One of the things I'm trying to learn is to relax and chill out and just enjoy the flying.
Determination to do well (as you do at work) could make you worry too much and screw up your flying - this could be what's causing your “perceived” problems with your straight & level - and then of course you're kicking yourself and thinking you can't make the grade (which makes it 10 times worse!!) - Been there...Done that - and for the same self critical reasons!!!!

DO listen to WhirlyBird - she and a few others have been trying to get me to relax for month's – and it may finally be working.

I don't have the same financial restraints as you (no kids) but have gone through a long period of being convinced I can't "get" various bits of this flying lark and it's going to take me forever.

Would I give up and call it quits ?? - quite simply… I wouldn't know how to stop now - no matter how often I could fly in the future.

Do it.
Do it anyhow you can and as often as you can - life is too short to miss the exhilaration of being "up there". :ok:

[Mad Girl]

Now I've got the totally over the top, emotional and enthusiastic reply out of the way I'll put my practical hat on.......

Take a look at this....

http://www.oldsarumflyingclub.co.uk/ikarus_c42_pricing.asp

Mods - I'm not advertising - Just trying to show the guy what some clubs are arranging these days.

Look at the 20th share option - Get 25 hours instruction and if it takes you longer...you'll have money over to pay for the additional hours you need and you'll end up owning a 1/20th share in an aircraft which is cheap to run.

It is classed as a micolight but looks like a small aircraft - so no microlight suits or freezing cold weather around your ears - your wife may approve - and she doesn't have to know it's part of the microlight family of aircraft :O .

After you've got your licence (or 12 months) it will cost you £300 per year to pay your monthly costs which leaves you £700 (or 23 hours) of flying.

Now, I know I'm over simplifying - so the rest of you PPruners DON'T jump down my throat - but this is a very realistic option for people with very little budget.

Check out clubs in your area and you may find a similar deal.

Another practical tip - Buy your books on Amazon. I managed to get "NEW" for approx £7 a book less than my club or any of the pilot internet stores. Yes... I had to pay a healthy amount of postage but it still worked out a lot cheaper - Gives you even more money to spend on flying.

Good luck and I hope you stick with it. :)

[Whirlybird]

Have to disagree with Whirly's comments about the 6K though.

On reflection, I disagree too!

being the driven, goal-directed kind of person I am, that's a hard nut to swallow.

To echo mad girl, "tell me about it". I've been there too, really. If you're the sort of person for whom things have come fairly easily, who's usually been successful, and whose usual reaction to difficulty is to grit your teeth and redouble your efforts, flying can come as a real shock, because that sort of effort doesn't work. I found it out, and with hindsight, it was a far more useful learning experience than all my previous successes. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found a way to get that across to my high-achieving, driven students who are having similar problems, and finding that the battering-ram-technique doesn't work when it comes to flying, while chilling out does. Seems we all have to learn it for ourselves. :{

[mad_bear]

If you're the sort of person for whom things have come fairly easily, who's usually been successful, and whose usual reaction to difficulty is to grit your teeth and redouble your efforts, flying can come as a real shock, because that sort of effort doesn't work.


Wow! Have we met? This certainly sounds like me. My normal reaction when things don't go as planned is to curse roundly, thump something, and try again with gritted teeth. While this approach has served me well on many occasions, I've found that it usually doesn't work for things that really matter. I wouldn't be approaching flying this way if it weren't for my budgetary constraints. The problem is that it's difficult to chill out when you're burning money this rapidly and not seeming to make any progress, if you see what I mean.

I am certainly willing to investigate forms of flying that allow more airtime per pound spent.

Now I've got the totally over the top, emotional and enthusiastic reply out of the way I'll put my practical hat on.......

Take a look at this....

http://www.oldsarumflyingclub.co.uk/ikarus_c42_pricing.asp



I'd be very happy to fly something like this, if I could fit in it, and still have room for an intructor and fuel. But with a maximum load of about 30st (if I understand correctly), I'd be looking for an instructor in the 8st region, or very frequent fuel stops, I think. I know I can't fit in a Cessna 152, and my understanding is that most microlight aircraft are smaller than that. Or am I misunderstanding something? I'd be very happy to be misunderstanding, because this is the (only) kind of flying I could probably afford on a long-term basis.

[high-hopes]

mad bear

I, too, have read pprune stories of people taking off and landing after 2 hours or so (funnily enough, never met anybody at the club that has done it !)

I started flying less than 7 months ago with a 5 hour package, and by the time I got to the 3rd hour, I thought I had wasted my money - thought I wouldn't even fly the remaining 2.
This is not for me - What a waste of money - I'll never make it and so on.

As a matter of fact, each lesson became less of a struggle and now I am at 40 hours (10 of which solo) preparing for the skills test.

Difficulties make success much more enjoyable. I would sincerely give it a little more time before you call it a day.

[Mad Girl]

I'd be very happy to fly something like this, if I could fit in it, and still have room for an intructor and fuel. But with a maximum load of about 30st (if I understand correctly), I'd be looking for an instructor in the 8st region, or very frequent fuel stops, I think. I know I can't fit in a Cessna 152, and my understanding is that most microlight aircraft are smaller than that. Or am I misunderstanding something? I'd be very happy to be misunderstanding, because this is the (only) kind of flying I could probably afford on a long-term basis.

If in doubt... ask the people who know!!! Ring Old Sarum flying club on 01722 322525 and ask them the weight, fuel & size issues of the C42 - then you'd know for sure.

I've only been in it once and was told that if I had both myself and my partner (combined about 23 stone) we could carry a full fuel load which would give us a range of 1000km with no problem.
The instructor who was flying it was a good 6ft + and he still had room above his head. I don't know if the seats are adjustable but I know I would have needed at least a 4 inch thick cushion behind me to bring me close enough to get my feet on the rudders but I'm only a short ar:mad: e.

The other nice thing about it is that it can fly with a SEP(A) licenced instructor so you're not limited to purely microlight instructors.

I don't think any club would object to pairing you up with their lightest instructor....and there are 8 -9 stone instructors around - we've got a couple of "littlens" at my club.

Get back up there as soon as possible - you know you want to!!! :ok:

PS Lots of deep breaths and try not to let your performance matter so much - it works!! Says she...still trying to do this herself!!!!

[Whirlybird]

My normal reaction when things don't go as planned is to curse roundly, thump something, and try again with gritted teeth. While this approach has served me well on many occasions, I've found that it usually doesn't work for things that really matter. I wouldn't be approaching flying this way if it weren't for my budgetary constraints. The problem is that it's difficult to chill out when you're burning money this rapidly and not seeming to make any progress, if you see what I mean.


I do that too...or I used to. But I've found that I have to split my life into two parts, ordinary life and flying. For the flying part, I refuse to think about how much I'm spending; it takes what it takes, and when I run out of money I stop, at least for a while. It was the only way I stopped being so driven and stressed that I was my own worst enemy when I was learning. Now, as an instructor, I try to teach my high-achieving students the same thing, but it's still hard. Yes, deep breathing helps, so does consciously giving yourself a shake to relax, and similar tricks, but ultimately it needs a fundamental re-assessment of your attitude to flying and life and success and failure. And it's a very useful lesson when you can learn it - I speak from (painful) personal experience.

[cessna l plate]

Got to agree. I fly for this reason alone.
At work I am stressed, at home is the same, mainly as the phone never stops for work.
When I am flying, the phone is turned off, no-one is bugging me, and I recognise that I must devote my grey matter to the event in hand, I don't fancy becoming another statistic!

One thing to consider is this. We are all driven by money, some more than others, but it plays its part in all of us. If you are at 100' on final and start worrying about how much the landing is going to cost then you shouldn't be there! Switch off totally and concentrate on the job in hand, and relax! Look out of the window, look down at the millions of people who have never experienced the view you are enjoying. Think about the millions that cannot take a day trip from Northern England to France. Enjoy it for it's solitude and a good chance to clear the overworked brain, just don't drop the ball!

It might sound easy to say, and indeed is, but the harder you work the harder it gets. Chill out, relax, don't look at it as work, look at it as something that stimulates the mind, but can be in itself a relaxing experience. Whatever your favourite relaxation technique, remember there is a time and a place for everything, and as for worrying about the cost, that place is firmly on the ground!!!

[J.A.F.O.]

Like you I try to plan for the "what next" and budget accordingly but the truth of the matter is that none of us knows what's next.

I started flying 20 years ago and have gone for years on end without getting airborne and, conversely, have spent years when I've hardly been on the ground.

I couldn't have foreseen the way that flying, and my flying in particular, would go.

The main point is that I've enjoyed every second of being airborne whether it be as pax, crew, P u/t, P1, whatever.

I've recently done a tailwheel conversion and I found it quite difficult, not the flying but the taking-off, landing and taxying - all of which are fairly important. I tried hard and wouldn't let it beat me and it did beat me every single time; I chilled out, had fun, enjoyed myself and bingo, it worked.

Enjoy today, enjoy the flight, we are very, very priveleged people to be able to view the world from the perspective that we do; enjoy it and don't worry about the next flight or next year or where it's all going. One of the great things about flying and about learning something new is that it makes us concentrate on the here and now and that's where life is.

[mad_bear]

Thanks to everyone for the advice, which I appreciate very much :)

[cessna l plate]

Just as an after thought, either take a look at the "spare seats" thread at the top of the page, or get to know pilots at your flying club who might take you up for half an hour, you might be surprised.

This will show you what is acheivable after the ppl, the types to fly and places to go. You never know, you might "get a go" from the right hand seat, and I have learnt more from some old pilots doing this than some instructors have taught me (See spotty 19 year old with 250 hours)

This will hopefully show you what is available post ppl, and might turn on the light at the end of the tunnell.

For me, I was having the money dilemma a couple of weeks ago, can I justify it sort of thing. So I decided to go on a nav exercise. I planned it, worked it all out and flew it. I got to see some fantastic scenery, went to a nice little airfield that I know, had a coffee and bacon sarnie with some friends I met there and then flew back again. I re-started my interest and I have now booked a week off work to finish my ppl next month. Try it, if there is no-one, ask the instructor if you can do a little nav ex to a nice little field nearby, and explain why. It might just give you the kick start you need, and whatever you do, good luck and happy landings!!!

[Confabulous]

Have to agree with everyone about this - the aircraft/money problem becomes far less when you research it.

When talking about flying with airline pilots, many of them go misty-eyed remembering their Pitts S1C or C152 or Thruster or whatever - they WANT to fly GA, but a lot of them hardly have the time. Yes, they fly for a living, but they willingly pay good money to fly something without an autopilot or glass cockpit simply for the fun of it. That's how much it means, and that's what makes me wonder whether I'd be better off staying at PPL level and buying an old Pitts!

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are a lot of different microlights out there, and empty weights and seat limits vary.

However, it's quite easy to check. If you go here (http://www.bmaa.org/techdocs.asp?DocumentTypeID=6&DocumentType=Type+Approval+Data+Sheets+%28TADS%29) you'll find the list of microlight types approved for use in a flying school, and for each one a data sheet (TADS).

For example, go to the third page and look at the data sheet for the GT450 (a lovely aeroplane to fly BTW) - on page 1 we have:

Maximum take-off weight (MTOW): 450kg
Typical empty weight: 217kg
Limit per seat: 110kg
Maximum fuel consumption: 13kg per hour

So, a quick back of envelope sum tells us that two 17½ stone people, plus an hour's fuel can go flying together.


As for questions about weight and height - microlight instructors are very aware of this - it's an important issue to them. Just ask if at your height and weight they can teach you or not, nobody will be offended.

G

[i.dingbat]

How about if after 36 hours, you're still flying circuits your instructor tells you are 'pathetic'. Is that code for 'Give up'?

Relevant info - also in my 40s, money is tight (hence fortnightly lessons) and I chose to learn in a tailwheel a/c. Finished first area solo with a very ordinary landing and tried a session of circuits to fix things up, but felt worse after the lesson than before. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Seriously, should I take a break for a few months, save up, then go back to weekly?

Or just remain feet firmly on the ground?

[cessna l plate]

[QUOTE=i.dingbat;2884139]How about if after 36 hours, you're still flying circuits your instructor tells you are 'pathetic'. Is that code for 'Give up'?

Relevant info - also in my 40s, money is tight (hence fortnightly lessons) and I chose to learn in a tailwheel a/c. QUOTE]

Nothing like learning the hard way !!!!

I would imagine that you are simply trying too hard. Maybe have a couple of weeks away from it, then go and do something else like a nav trip, or some general handling, then as you land back it will all fall into place.

[Confabulous]

Dingbat,

Find a new instructor - preferably a good one! :uhoh:

I've flown with two instructors so far, one took me through aeros and low level flying on my trial flight. He ended up writing off a club a/c (without me in it) and afterwards being fired from an F/O position for gross incompetence.

My second instructor was my best friend (still is, just doesn't train me anymore) and possibly overestimated my abilities, recovering from (very) unusual attitudes on my second lesson. I did get to land on all lessons, which made up for any uncertainties on my part. Still disconcerting though.

My point is that instructors are human and make mistakes, misjudgements, have attitudes and may not be suited for instructing sometimes. Some people respond well to insults as a training technique, many don't. It's unprofessional to insult someone, especially while they're doing a complicated (for the student) task like flying circuits. You're not paying to be insulted, you're paying to learn and receive critical appraisal of your current skills. If a skill is taking longer then usual to perfect, feedback is nessecary, insults and jibes play no part.

New instructor, post haste. As an aside, ask yourself what you know, what you're sure about. What's left needs to be worked on.

[Genghis the Engineer]

If your instructor tells you that you are pathetic, it's a good sign that you have a lousy instructor. (Unless you've just joined the Army Air Corps, in which case it means he likes you.)

There are plenty more out there.

[MyData]

How about if after 36 hours, you're still flying circuits your instructor tells you are 'pathetic'. Is that code for 'Give up'?


Unless you are on good banter terms with your instructor I would take that as a pretty negative statement from your instructor - not at all constructive. You shouldn't have to be concerned if it is code for 'give up', if the instructor is of any merit then they will also be able to have an honest chat with you.

As for time to give up - well, I'll restate what has been said so often before. It is tough and hard at times, I almost felt like quitting on my PPL(A) at around 35hrs - I started to have a crisis of confidence in my ability in all areas (circuits, landing, R/T, nav...) but pushed on through and qualified last year. It *does* all fit together eventually.

I'm now a single-hours rotary student and still get tense and think too hard about what I'm trying to do - the secret really is to just relax and it will fall into place.

Keep at it! It is worth it in the end :ok:

[cessna l plate]

The trick as an instructor (i have trained as a driving istructor) is to critisise effectively. This is a black art and no doubt. You need to be able to pan your student, but not go so far as to knock what little confidence they have for a six!

What you are looking for is someone that can say also praise the good bits.

The guy I have now has a lot more confidence in my flying than I do, as him sending me solo yesterday when I didn't really want to is a testiment to. This is because I have had all the confidence kicked out of me earlier in my training, and am not that self assured at the best of times. His methods worked and I now feel 200% better about solo flying, the praise he heaped upon me was great, but was also tempered with "you screwed that up nicely" and "see, I told you, take that as a lesson learned and move on"

That is the sort of thing you want, tell you what you are doing wrong, to a point let you make the mistake in the first place, without compromising safety, to see if you can recognise it for what it is and put it right.

And a good de-brief afterwards, covering the good and bad bits, but always ending on a high note, and an overview of what you will do next time are a must.

As for calling you pathetic, someone started down that track with me once on a course, and got both sides of my tongue and was left in no doubt what I thought of his teaching methods. He was attempting to knock the stuffing out of me for a more than beligerant reason only came across a brick wall, and when asked the question "that is diabolical, who the hell taught you to do that?" got the reply " your companys other effing instructor, when you can all sing the off the same sheet have a pop, until then belt up whist you still can!!" I stopped the course there and then, and refused to pay his invoice as well. Take note, your money is valuable to you, don't waste it on some numpty that has a bad idea of motivation!!

[Whirlybird]

dingbat,

Get another instructor, immediately! You don't need someone sapping your confidence. Been there, and I know. :{ No, it DOESN'T mean you should give up, it means your instructor should give up instructing.

[JackOffallTrades]

If you give up people will think you're gay. So stick with it, get mad, punch your instructor and then get even. :=

[sortedtoo]

Thanks. As it happens, I have some time booked with a different instructor next week, so I'll see what happens.

But really the problem is that no instructor has even remotely hinted that I won't succeed. I'm just comparing my (unremarkable) progress with that of other student pilots. But I presume that flying schools won't lose a paying customer without a fight, and it's not in their interests to be other than encouraging.

I guess the question I need to answer is impossible to answer: how much is it going to cost me to get to test-passing standard? I decided, on no very exact grounds, that I was prepared to spend 6,000 pounds on training and the equipment that goes with it. But I'm a reasonably successful, middle-aged family man, with absolutely nothing to prove, and I can easily find fun things to do with the 5,500 currently left in the kitty. I wouldn't want to spend all my money, and still not be anywhere in sight of completing the training.

What I'm wondering is if there's some way to predict how long it will take to succeed, based on a measure of progress over the first ten hours or so?


Try some training in california - spend a couple of weeks, and i'm sure that with continuity of flying every day you'll advance really quickly - and have a great time

[AlexEvans]

If you give up people will think you're gay. So stick with it, get mad, punch your instructor and then get even. :=

Implication being what exactly? That gay people are quitters?

I'd say get another instructor before you give up - otherwise you may beat yourself up for giving up on a lifelong dream.

Good luck mate.

[Piltdown Man]

Last week you said that you had another lesson booked in a week's time. No pressure but time is up: How did it go? If you haven't had the lesson yet, the secret is to trim the thing (use finger tip pressure to sense the load on controls) and make sure that you look out, not in.

Best of Luck

PM:)

[mad_bear]

Last week you said that you had another lesson booked in a week's time. No pressure but time is up: How did it go? If you haven't had the lesson yet, the secret is to trim the thing (use finger tip pressure to sense the load on controls) and make sure that you look out, not in.


Thanks for asking; I think it went a lot better than the previous ones. At least the instructor didn't look green with motion sickness by the end of it. I was able to either fly in a reasonably straight line, or climb and descend, but not both at the same time. That is, whenever I try to climb or descend, I end up facing the wrong direction.

According to my instructor it is typical to be at this point after five hours' flying -- inasmuch as it is possible to judge -- so I'm not beating myself up about not being Biggles right now.

But this doesn't change the fundamental problem, which is that I can't really afford to fly :( To get to PPL test-passing standard before the money I have negotiated from the domestic finance committee runs out, I need to make more than `typical' progress. I had hoped to be able to make good any deficiency in natural talent by working harder. But, as other people have pointed out, it doesn't seem to be possible to get better at flying by working harder at it. It seems that the only way to learn is to keep stumping up the hourly fees, and not worry how much it is costing. Ouch.

I doubt I will ever be able to fly more than an hour a month on a long term basis, given the number of other demands there are on my earnings. And if I try to learn to fly on an hour a month, well, I'm not sure that is even possible.

So I still have a difficult decision to make: (i) fly as often as I can afford on a long-term basis, and accept that I will probably never get any good, or fly very often, or (ii) fly once or twice a week until my money runs out, whether I get to test-passing standard or (most likely) I don't. Tricky.

I have investigated flying microlights, but my height and weight make that difficult. While I might, with harsh dieting, just squeeze under the maximum seat weight in a C42, I've phoned all the clubs within an hour-or-so's drive of where I live, and none seem very keen on having me as a student (I'm nearly 6'5" tall, and three feet wide at the shoulders). This is fair enough, I guess -- who would want to teach somebody to fly in an aircraft that was loaded to within 20kg or so of MTOW, and only carrying an hour's fuel? So it seems that I'm stuck with flying expensive planes, which compounds the problem :(

Oh well, that's life.

Thanks to everybody for the advice and support.

[cessna l plate]

Mad Bear
Let me tell you a story, are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin

In 1991 or 15 years ago, whichever you like, my parents bought me a trial lesson. I immediately, and totally fell in love with aviation, and joined the club on the spot. I had another hour the week after and was looking forwards to training as a pilot.

2 days later the boss calls us all in the office, "times are hard" "end of the summner season" and so-on, and we all had our 40 hour week cut to about 25 on a good week. There were other pulls on my finances at that time, although being 21 they more of the "birds and booze" variety. 12 months later I lost the job, and spent 6 months on the dole, followed by 5 years in the employment wilderness trying different careers, some paid good money, but I spent all that repaying debts I run up when on the dole.

Flying never really left me, it just got shoved to the back of my brain. I met a girl, we got married, had a daughter, all the usual pulls on the money we all suffer from. Fast forward to 2001, and I decided I wanted a hobby. After nearly collapsing at the local golf club when they told me about the membership fee I thought "that's half a ppl". It then struck me, that's what I love, go for it!

So I did, I joined a club in 2002 and started training. Took me ages to get my head around stalling and circuits but got there in the end. Move to 2003 Then one night, after having a word with a neighbour about his noisy dog, I awoke to find my motor on fire outside the house. The financial manager of our house declared that we had to move, in hindsight a sensible thing to do really. Bought a new house (bigger of course) moved in the day after my first solo. Bigger house means more money, guess what suffered?

Moving to today, our daughter is no longer in a nursery that cosrs half a wage packet every month, and I can afford some more training. Having retired from being a DJ, when I can sell my equipment it will pay off the credit card bill I am currently running up. I will finish my training this time, it has taken 15 years from start to finish, and post ppl, save for a few hours flying freinds and family about to showcase my new found skills, the money will dry up again. I know it will, but occasionally there will be something in the pot for an hour here and there.

The moral of this story, don't beat yourself up. As for "affording" flying, none of us can afford it, justifying it is a different matter. It doesn't matter how long it takes. For me it has been a journey of 15 years since I first climbed into a GA plane, but I will get there. And if I never fly again post ppl (which I hope wll not happen) I will have acheived something in life that doesn't involve earning money. If for no other reason than it is one of life's great challenges, go for it, as and when you can afford it. When the money runs out, just stop. Start again when you have some more money, you will be surprised how much you will remember!

Whatever you do, good luck!!

[Whirlybird]

cessna l plate,

Great story, great post. :ok: Should be required reading for every impoverished PPL student who's wondering what to do next.

[Johnm]

Mad Bear

I can relate to your situation all too easily. I was given a flying lesson for my 40th birthday, I thought it was fantastic and started buying the Thom books with a view to going further. For all the restrictive reasons you described earlier I didn't resume my lessons until I was 52 and got my licence at 53.

I found that learning the theory and doing the exams and flying with an instructor most (but not all) weekends was a really enjoyable hobby in itself. If I had my time over again I would have done that rather younger and not worried about whether it actually led to a licence.

In fact there's little doubt that £6000 would get you a licence. That's roughly what it cost me and my spatial perception is rubbish.

I don't know where you are based but I would try to get involved with a club and more mature instructors who will be more relaxed and better equipped than the hour builders to analyse your flying and explain technique in ways you can easily understand. In a club scene you can make friends and get good right hand seat time to add to your lessons and that will help you ask good questions of your instructor as well as adding to the fun at minimal cost. (Custom says you buy the bacon sarnies and pay the landing fees;) )

Just enjoy what flying you can get and relax until you get older freer and more in control of your wallet.

In my case (now 59), I have 300 hours P1 110 hours dual which got me PPL/IMC/night and complex, all of which were great fun and stand me in good stead when flying my newly acquired Archer 2:) :)

[cessna l plate]

Just thought I'd bump this up a bit. We have all moved a week nearer our goals, and meeting our maker so let's have an update mad bear

Whilst you are at it, where do you fly from? I will hopefully and with all the ducks in a row (you can tell I work for an american company) pass the skills test later this month or early next month. Post ppl I think it might be nice for those of us that are currently able, to meet with mad bear and take him up for half an hour to just show him what is available to work towards. I am sure we are all very familiar with the local training area, but I for one would like to take MB out for a bit so he can gain the required motivation.

What do you all think, and MB, tell us where you are!

[mad_bear]

Hi

OK, I live in Kings Langley, which is on the remote fringes of North London, and about a 15 minute drive from Elstree, which is where I fly from.

I've had another hour in the air since my last update, making six in total :) I feel I did a lot better last time. I managed to taxi, take off (in perfect weather), fly around a bit, and get within about 20 seconds of landing before having to give up the controls to the instructor. So I feel I'm doing a lot better, although it still feels as if the plane is flying me, rather than the other way around.

The money problem is still a problem, however. As I said earlier, I have a fixed budget for training, and when it's gone, I won't be able to afford to fly more than once a month, if that. I have enough money in the `training kitty' to pay for 40 hours (total) of Cessna 172+instructor time. If I don't get reasonably competent by that time, I'm not sure that one hour a month thereafter will allow me to make much progress towards getting to PPL standard.

I appreciate that thinking this way leads to ruin but, being the kind of person I am, it's hard not to.

Best wishes
Bear

[cessna l plate]

OK MB
You are about 6 hours in, around about the point that aviation becomes addictive. Sounds like you had a good lesson the other day, and as for giving the landing to the instructor, I still do that at 40 hours on the odd occassion!
So ask yourself this, and be honest to yourself, no point in lying to yourself, "do I enjoy it", "is it a challenge"?
If you answer yes to either of these, then you are an addict, welcome to the club!!

I fully understand your financial situation (see my earlier thread). To begin with you have negotiated 40 hours flying to get your licence. A couple of reality checks here for you, legal MINIMUM for qualification is 45 hours JAR. 32 hours NPPL, but the syllabus is the same anyway. The reality is that most people take about 60 hours to qualify. Just working to minimums, you have budgeted too short to start with by 5 hours.

So after the 40 you can only fly once a month. So ??? I take it that you are quite happy in your chosen career, and have no ambition to become a boeing driver? If that is the case, then why worry about it, if you enjoy it then do it, and if you can only do it once a month then do it that way. None of us know what the future holds, and you could win the lottery next weekend. Fancy giving it up just incase you don't??

Just accept this for what it is, a great hobby, surrounded by great people, and one of lifes great acheivements, and do what you can when you can.

I promise you this, keep flying and I will come to Elstree after I qualify to take you up for an hour, just to show you that it isn't that hard, and what the end result looks like, however if someone else would like to do this sooner then all hands please help this poor tortured soul!

[S-Works]

why dont you switch to a 152, cheaper to fly so more hours for your book. I happen to know that Elstree have a superb 152 fully equipped that is cheaper to fly. I sold them my 152!

My friend just got a job with BA flying Dash. He spent the first 100hrs hanging onto the aircraft by the tailplane he was so far behind it. You are no different in this respect.

I think you are pushing yourself to hard and just making things more diificult for yourself. Chill out....

[cessna l plate]

Got to agree with Bose here.

This has already been said here many times, but it is worth re-iterating. Chill out!!!!!!

In life, as a whole, the best teacher we have is experience. Some we take out ourselves, some we glean from others, but experience is it. Nothing else will teach anybody anything.

I appreciate that you are one of those people that works hard to acheive goals, and that is admirable, although I have to say that in my opinion, any fool can work hard, the clever guy works smart!! But that aside, experience is the only teacher we ever have in life be it ours or someone else's.

That is why you need to chill out, you cannot work a bit harder at this game. If you push harder at work for your goal then you will acheive it, but remember this, at work you are on terra firma and it wont kill you if you disrespect it! What you need to gain is experience and lots of it. As you have said the last lesson went better than the one before, the next one will go better again, and so this will carry on, that is why we have an hours limit in aviation, so that you not only have the skills at the end of the course, you also have a reasonable level of experience. Don't forget that a ppl is a licence to learn though.

Remember learning to drive?? After about 3 hours you could probably drive in a straight line and turn corners and make gear changes, but you had to think about it didn't you. Did you always drift left or right a little when putting the indicator on?? I know you did, all learners do, bet you don't do it now though, and change gear without even giving it a concious thought. That is because you have experience as a driver. Don't believe me?, try driving a left hand drive car for a couple of days, you will have to teach yourself to drive the wrong way round and your brain will hurt for a couple of hours whilst you get used to it, and that is what is happening in your aviating career.

There is nothing you can do about it, accept that you have to chill out, and it will fall into place a lot quicker. It is surprising how much more you enjoy it when you aren't under pressure you know!

And whatever else, along with other here, take our advice and don't quit. You will forever kick yourself if you do, trust me!

[mad_bear]

OK MB
I fully understand your financial situation (see my earlier thread). To begin with you have negotiated 40 hours flying to get your licence. A couple of reality checks here for you, legal MINIMUM for qualification is 45 hours JAR. 32 hours NPPL, but the syllabus is the same anyway. The reality is that most people take about 60 hours to qualify. Just working to minimums, you have budgeted too short to start with by 5 hours.


Sure. This is my problem in a nutshell. If I were to `chill out' properly, I would just fly once a month, which I can afford to do without too much hardship, and spend the money I budgeted for training on a family holiday in the Bahamas or something. I know my family would think this a better use of funds. I probably wouldn't ever get to PPL standard, because at my age I just forget stuff too easily if I don't do it often enough.

What's bothering me is whether I would be happy flying, knowing that I probably wouldn't ever be basically competent at it. Knowing the kind of person I am, I have a sneaking suspicion that the answer is no. Unfortunately. This is nobody's problem but my own, of course.

As for cost-saving measures, I fly a 172 because it's the smallest thing I can fly. I am too tall, wide, and heavy for anything smaller. I've done my research, and that's just the way it seems to be, unfortunately.

[ChampChump]

We all seem to be agreed here: if you want to fly and enjoy it, there is no point in fretting about progress at what is, after all, a fairly early stage in the training (which never stops, of course...).
My story might not ring bells throughout, but I hope parts of it might help.
I started to learn to fly in a glider and was HOPELESS, truly abysmally cack-handed. I didn't stop though, because I was probably too dim to think about it, but kept on, spending the pocket money, enjoying some occasional, temporary progress until I realised I didn't want to be anywhere else. The people I met obviously inhabited some superior world to my dull existence, but they seemed to want me to move there too. I still wasn't solo after %*$$$! launches but quite enjoyed having someone in the back to talk to and keep me safe....
One evening in the pub (which I couldn't afford either but that was part of the buddy system too) I learned from the guys that I was actually not far off solo, but seemingly lacked the motivation to be consistent. I didn't make much of an extra effort, because as has been said, you can't, but something changed and soon after I was sent off solo. From there, equally slowly, I progressed to other things. It all crept up insidiously and once addicted, I rebuilt my life around it. At one point when thing were particularly tough, domestically and it seemed I couldn't afford to keep my house, a change in the job yielded more money. Other problems arrived but somehow there was always a way to keep flying.
Of course your situation is unique and with family to consider you may feel guilty about the money spent on your 'hobby'. I'm sure you don't begrudge your family members their hobbies and they want you to be happy, so don't beat yourself up about holdays in the Bahamas. The point I'm trying to make, ineptly, is that even if you can't afford to fly as much as you want (who can?), if you are getting pleasure you will find a way. I'm not totally convinced by the 'you make your own luck' philosophy, nor that of Micawber, despite what I've written, but I do believe that if you can connect with the community prevalent in various areas of aviation, whether it's with microlights or gliders or the flight school at Elstree, any passion you feel will reap rewards. You don't have to have a specific goal, although much of what you read in the aviation comics might lead you to think otherwise. I certainly didn't ('I shall just keep on and if I make any progress, that's a bonus' was my mantra for a long time), but if you can look back on the last lesson, or any of them, with a degree of pleasure, there's your answer. Carry on while you can, for as long as you can. If you have to stop, you'll have logged experience that can always form the basis for a reprise in the future. Why think so negatively, though? You are flying now and although you've earmarked a finite amount, who knows what might change? Without knowing or wanting to know all your personal circumstances I suspect that there may be some wiggle room when you need it. Enjoy the journey and try not to worry so much. That's what makes it more enjoyable...
I'm sorry for the long post, much of which has just reiterated what others have said, more eloquently. I was moved to post again because I don't want you to give up on yourself. I wish I could say it better.

[robin]

I have to agree with everyone on this.

I had dificulties in the early days, but the main cause was my limited budget. It meant I could fly only once or twice a month, and that isn't good enough. It meant that I took longer than I would have liked to get solo, but later it got even worse - getting close to the NFT and GFT I had to spend more than I budgeted for - the NFT practice and NFT itself cost me 2 months flying.

I got into a downward spiral - I wasn't progressing, I had long spells when I didn't fly and I seemed to be going backwards when I compared myself to other students. In fact there were whole months when I didn't want to go to the airfield at all.

In the end, I summoned up the courage to get a bank loan for funding the last 15 hours or so and piled in the hours until it was completed. I have never regretted doing that, although I do sometimes regret the divorce that my flying caused.

[cessna l plate]

Mad Bear
At the risk of boring everyone by comparing flying to driving again, (I am more of an expert at that than flying) I understand what you mean. You do need to carry out a task often to be relatively competent at it.

That said, when you go off to the Bahamas for a 2 week holiday, when you get back in your car, are you as good as before you went away? Thought not, it takes a few minutes to re-adjust again, get your eye in if you like. Same with flying, again the more you do it the better you will be, but it doesn't mean that you are pathetic at it.

Affordability.
None of us, not a single one of us can afford to fly. Some might have more financial resources available to enable aviation, but no-one can actually afford it when the yardstick is other commitments like holidays. At our level of aviation, for once in your life, leave the brain out of the equation, and let your heart steer you. We all fall into two camps on this topic, those who admit that the heart rules the mind, and those that don't admit it!

Age
What the hell has that to do with the price of wet fish exactly? I can promise you the day you stop learning is the day they nail the lid down and pat your face with a shovel! They key part of flying and the number one skill is that of decision making, and making a good, safe one quickly. That skill has now spilled into my work life, and although there are other circumstances, I have gone from being a driver to being in charge of the whole operation, as I can be trusted to make quick decisions that work. All due to flying.

At the risk of sounding nasty, I don't mean to be, but you need a good swift kick in the rear. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and attempting to justify it to yourself, just get on and do it. Life is too short and too full of regrets to add another one!

Now a little help with the financial services comittee.
Yes, you could go to the Bahamas for a holiday this year on the money a ppl will cost. Now ask the kids, do they want a 2 week holiday somewhere exotic, or do they want their old man to get a ppl and have days, yes days, out in Northern France, Disneyland Paris, Scotland, Parts of near Europe etc. Would they like to be able to go to Spain (or wherever) and fly off for the day? No brainer really!! My good example is the wifes Uncle who lives 2 miles from Shoreham. We couldn't go to a party there this weekend due to other commitments, as it takes about 6 hours to drive, in each direction. It would take 1h40m by PA28. We could have gone, had a good day and come home again same day. She might not like flying, but she is sold on the part of the idea!

Now get down to Elstree, stop feeling sorry for yourself and get a ppl!:ok:

[Whirlybird]

You don't have to have a specific goal, although much of what you read in the aviation comics might lead you to think otherwise.

Very true! But aren't people different. I had no goal when I started to fly (f/w) other than having something to look forward to at the end of every working week. I knew nothing about aviation. I didn't know or care how long it would take me to get a PPL, and I didn't even know if I ever would....mad bear, I'm older than you, and I had the same beliefs and prejudices as many in our ageist society, back then. I certainly had no plans to ever fly helicopters.

Somehow, things changed, I changed, circumstances changed, and not all that many years later (in the greater scheme of things) I seem to have ended up as a fulltime helicopter instructor. I sometimes wonder just how it all happened. :confused: I'm not saying I didn't help the process along, plan it, work hard, but somehow life seemed to run me rather than me it quite often.

As for the age thing, I'll fly, and instruct, as long as I can pass medicals and want to and feel safe to. When I eventually get beyond that point....well, Cranfield has rather a nice sounding M Sc course on human factors in aviation or something similar. That's always been a main interest of mine, and I'm qualified to do it. Maybe I'll go for a Ph D in that area....when I'm about 95. Why not? Age has little to do with anything really, that much I've found out.

The point I'm making, rather longwindedly, is....fly if you want to, and don't worry too much about where it all leads, and when. There is such a thing as being too organised.

[MyData]

mad bear

There is something else to consider - is your budget finite *for ever* or just for the next year or so? I say this because it took me 18 months to get my PPL(A). I can only fly weekends because I never know where I'll be during the week - so for 18 months, barring personal holidays I had a lesson booked every single weekend, sometimes double lessons over bank holiday weekends. The vaguaries of the English weather, the availability of aircraft etc. will conspire against you so that it might take much longer than you anticipate to get qualified. In my worst case I went seven weeks without flying, but it soon came back to me.

In that case you might find yourself 18 or 24 months down the line and find that your financial circumstances have changed and hopefully you have a few more £££ for your flying. But don't worry yourself too might right now, just get those lessons booked and get flying!

And as for a goal - I broke my training down to sizeable chunks: circuits, solo, QXC, GFT so that I could aim for the next major step over the next 10 hours or so, it makes the 45 hours seem much more attainable. I also had no time limit imposed upon myself, so I never got too downhearted with all the cancellations.

I'm now learning to fly helicopters and have the same motivations and thoughts - take it a step at a time, don't worry about the hours and don't worry about how long it is taking. My aim is to get a lesson every three weeks (budget permitting) but my next one is just two weeks after my last one at the weekend, whereas I had a four week gap between lessons 2 and 3.

You will get there in the end!

[ChampChump]

Right then. As I see it, there are 39 (ish) people, so far, all trying to encourage you here. That's a considerable amount of divese experience, but the overall picture is the same: mad_bear in an aeroplane, flying. True, there are some varieties in colour, texture, etc, but if 39 (ish) ppruners can agree :eek: , it must be a good picture...:D

[S-Works]

nah, I dont agree...:p

[cessna l plate]

CJ boy
At the risk of sounding wise here, for every Mad Bear with the bottle to ask these questions in public there are hundreds reading this thread that need the same information and motivation
In the absence of Agony Aunt, and given that a similar post in Jet Blast would attract replies like these, I think Mad Bear has made a wise choice in asking us here our thoughts about his crisis. Let's keep it going a while longer yet.

Besides a certain thread concerning a coloured headset is still running after several years. Leave it alone until MB has his ppl

[DeeCee]

My advice is to relax. Literally. Learn at your own pace and enjoy each lesson as it comes. It is not a competition. The learning curve at the beginning is a little steep because your are moving in three dimensions and there are unusual noises and vibrations. Enjoy!

[ChampChump]

nah, I dont agree...:p
:ugh::{ :{ :{

[Whirlybird]

My advice is to relax.

The best advice to give anyone at any stage of their flying. :ok:

And one of the hardest for most people to put into practice. :{ As one of my students told me, when I was telling him to relax when flying in a gusty crosswind: "It's easy for YOU to say".

But once you do learn to chill out, everything goes better, from hovering to landings to....the whole PPL course.

[vulcanpilot]

Talking of time ... I just looked back through my logbook. The 1st lesson was logged in 1990 (trial lesson) and I qualified in 1995!

I started flying as a bit of fun never EVER expecting to get my PPL - I just thought it would be much too difficult and costly.

I can still remember my 1st ever circuit at Jersey with the CFI (Phil Ringsdore - a VERY patient man :O ) - into Rwy 09 - all I could see was the cliff looming at me :} After that, I was well and truly hooked and by hook or by crook was going to do the thing properly. That didn't happen until 1993 and I got a bank loan to pay for the course up front as it was a bit cheaper than by the hour.

So, take it in stages. You don't have to rush it. But for gods sake enjoy it. After all, isn't that what it's all about? Unless of course you are pushing for a career at the pointy end of a flying charabang.

[ChampChump]

41 now - that we know of....(+ or - bose-x :E )
Of course it's easy for us to say relax and enjoy yourself, but going back to a thought I voiced earlier, perhaps you could get a little time with someone else, assuming an occasional opportunity amongst the private flyers. Now you're becoming a more regular feature of the aerodrome, you have the chance to talk to other people and wheedle your way into a spare seat. Many people are only too pleased to be able to fill a seat, if you offer to share fuel costs. Even if you don't get any hands-on, you can observe and - here we go again - just enjoy yourself, and the view, which tends to get ignored when you're concentrating hard in a lesson.
It probably wouldn't cost you more than a landing fee and the tea/bacon butty element of the flight.
That's it. Bossy mode is off.

[Mad Girl]

41 now - that we know of....(+ or - bose-x :E )

Make that 42...

As one of my students told me, when I was telling him to relax when flying in a gusty crosswind: "It's easy for YOU to say".

And when you're all tense learning to land, your instructor tells you to relax your left hand.... and then your left leg ('cos it just spasmed)............. You have to ask "Any other bit of my anatomy you want me to relax???" (with a despairing look on your face!!)

Agree totally with Whirls about the relaxing bit.

It's taken me over 20 hours to start to learn this, very simple, but extremely hard part of the PPL course 'cos I was just as driven to succeed as Mad Bear and screwing it up and making things worse.

I still slip back into the old way of thinking when it's a gusty day and have to try so hard to not let it matter. (Even to the point of trying to tune out my instructor and rabbiting away to myself like a demented looney :O )

[cessna l plate]

OK Mad Bear
Some good advice here from all of us ( +or- Bose-X ) So what are you going to do?

Keep us posted, and my offer of taking you up after I get my licence still stands!

[cessna l plate]

Just been reading through this thread again and have picked up on something.
Vulcan pilot said that he paid up front to get a discount. Mad Bear, whatever you do, do not be tempted by this idea at all. As others on other threads have said, never ever ever pay upfront at a flying school.

Although it is expensive, so are the overheads in running a school, and not all but some are in a precarious financial position, and this is more the norm than the exception. There have been thousands of pilots who have lost money paying upfront through the years. Small amounts are ok, ish! say £500 at a time max, but don't be tempted to pay the whole lot up front whatever you do.

So now 2 great pieces of advice on the thread, "chill out" and "don't pay upfront".

[vulcanpilot]

Just been reading through this thread again and have picked up on something.
Vulcan pilot said that he paid up front to get a discount. Mad Bear, whatever you do, do not be tempted by this idea at all. As others on other threads have said, never ever ever pay upfront at a flying school.

Although it is expensive, so are the overheads in running a school, and not all but some are in a precarious financial position, and this is more the norm than the exception. There have been thousands of pilots who have lost money paying upfront through the years. Small amounts are ok, ish! say £500 at a time max, but don't be tempted to pay the whole lot up front whatever you do.

So now 2 great pieces of advice on the thread, "chill out" and "don't pay upfront".

Not true in all cases - perhaps if you do it on the cheap abroad.

I picked a good, long standing UK FTO - and for me (and many others) it paid off. Perhaps if you are THAT scared, pay in chunks, but paying by the hour is the MOST expensive way of doing it.

I can only say what my experience was - and for me, it was the best thing to do. I also paid up for blocks of 10 hours to build time, and paid for my Tailwheel and NR up front. Perhaps I'm stupid, but as a businessman running a successful business, I think not! Just shrewd:E

[Piltdown Man]

Whirlybirds' words are absolutlely spot on! But if I had to add anything, I'd say that you should relax AFTER you have trimmed the bugger (nearly said "rimmed the bugger" - but this isn't a Cabin Cew forum!). Having the aircraft trimmed means that you can relax and not fly the damn thing (you delegate that to the designer) so that you can think about the bigger things in life and flying - like where are going to eat tonight? But seriously, that is the key to being able to relax.

PM

[cessna l plate]

VP
I didn't say all schools were nearly bust, far from it, and obviously it worked for you. As a succesful business man I am sure you are aware of the quantity of risk, and in business you have to accept risk and attempt to minimise and manage that risk as much as possible.

You were either lucky, or I suspect, made a sound decision based on business facts. But there was still the element of risk associated with coughing up a few grand at one go. Now transfer that to a personal point of view. As a succesful business man myself, I am more than happy to take risks with the companys money, and wont bat an eyelid at commiting the firm to a £6000 lay out. I doubt I would do that with my own personal finance, and that is the difference, because there is always the possibility that the school COULD go under, as any business can. I for one cannot afford to write off 6k of my own money that way.

It has worked for you, but there are thousands of posts on other threads over the years advising against it, it is not just my opinion, but that of thousands of us! Don't beleive me, have a search!

Weekend is here again, just off for a nav training session, what about you Mad Bear??

[jayteeto]

:ok: Who says that the other students are doing better than you???
Other students lie to try and impress!!
During my RAF training, a good friend of mine kept telling the rest of the course just how well things were going. We thought he might have been struggling and offered to help him if we could with drills etc. He insisted that nothing was wrong and he was doing great.....right up to the day he was chopped and kicked out. Everyone learns at their own rate, just relax and try to enjoy the training, smile as much as possible, keep in the books and join our exclusive club. Even if you do decide to pack it all in, make sure you fly solo at least once, no-one can ever take that away from you :ok:

[cessna l plate]

Now there's a thought Jayteeto.
The funny thing is a couple of years ago I thought I would never be able to fly again for financial reasons (see earlier post)


The only thing that kept a smile on my face for over 2 years was the First Solo certificate hanging above my desk at work, on view for all to see.

Remember, once you have solo'd you have been the commander of an aircraft in flight, and no-one can ever take that away from you!

[cessna l plate]

Hello again Mad Bear et all
What has happened to me this week might put your problem into perspective a little and demonstrate exactly what I have been talking about recently.

I decided a couple of weeks ago that I was nearly there, and would take a week off work to get the ppl done and dusted, that is this week.

On Sunday I pitched up with a plan of action, and money available to only just get it sorted. The planned navigation exercise went appaulingly, and over 9 legs I made a dogs breakfast of 8 of them (missing Skegness by about 20 miles was the pinnacle) This was a little set back, but I learnt from the experience, did the same trip on Monday and only loused up one leg, and even sorted out the diversion as well. All looking good.

Monday night I decided to have a look at my credit card statement. Big mistake!! There was nowhere near as much in the pot as I thought.

I re-evaluated what I did have available, and then changed the plan of attack. I went and did some more solo and general handling yesterday, today I will brush up the steep turns (does make you dizzy after a bit) and do some more solo, and tomorrow, with the last of my money I will be looking at doing the instrument part of the training.

My objective has dramatically changed due to money and for no other reason. The bad nav trip didn't help as I was paying to screw up, but I then looked at it positively, I needed to do that. If it had been prefect all the way round then if I ever where to get lost I wouldn't have a clue. What I am doing now is completing my basic training and trying to get my solo time up a bit. The next time I have some spare resources to fly with I will need a couple of hours to knock the rust off, and off to QXC and skills test, training complete. This also gives me time to concentrate on getting the ground exams out of the way as well, all in all I am far from happy, and indeed feeling down at the moment, as I cannot see a light at the end of the tunnel again, well I can, but it's a train coming at me, but I have been here before, and no doubt I will get there in a couple of years or so.

What I am trying to say is that like all things in life, just when you think things are OK, life and reality comes along and delivers a swift one up the jacobs. Flying is no exception to this rule, but stick at it and it will come. I have resigned myself to not flying again this year, and we will see what happens next year, but with what I have available I will have completed all my basic training and moved on from where I was 6 months ago. Until last week I didn't know how to navigate, now, although hardly an expert, I can get round, so I have moved on, gained something, and taken one more step towards my ppl.

Remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint and there are no prizes for passing quickly! Like those kids you see on the telly from time to time, passing degrees at 13 or 14. Great, but are they all multi-millionaires or MD's of large multi-nationals, or are the people in those jobs the sort that took their time about the learning process?

[bigflyingrob]

The snag is money as always. Are you handy with a few tools? If so look for a plane with a permit from either the BMAA or the PFA. If you bought a Thruster microlight you could have your licence and the plane for not much over your budget. Strip flying is great fun and much more challenging than landing on 2 miles of tarmac. You can also quite legally do your own maintenance.
I was quite amused a while back when we had a spare slot at our strip with the number of people who said it was too short. Gengis pointed out you can get an Islander, a 182 and a 65hp Aeronca in and out but there again it depends on your ability.

[JHM]

I hear what you say Cessna, i paid to fail my air law exam today and screw up a few circuits.

[Whirlybird]

JHM,
No, you paid to do a practice exam and learn from it, and to get more practice doing circuits and learn from them too. :ok:

[cessna l plate]

JHM You are right. I paid to balls up a nav exercise big time.
As whirls says, I also paid to gain some invaluable experience, and learn from it. Although in the scheme of things it was money that I didn't want to spend, and has set me back even further, it was still beneficial and although not exactly money well spent, there was a benefit from spending it.

Remember that mankind has only had wings for 100 years, in the great evolutionary scheme this is no time at all, and whereas most people have an idea of driving or boats when they come to it, not that many have had exposure to the pointy end of a plane. Remeber 45 hours is a minimum limit, aimed at RAF cadets that do nothing else all day.

[Baboon Boy]

My thoughts regarding people having difficulites with aspects of the PPL training are:

1) you will perform infinitely better if you chill out a bit in yourself. I can remember doing my training that at the start I was so tense that my instructor sometimes couldnt use the rudder, so rigidly pressed against the pedals were my feet. I was making no progress whatsoever, with each small error making me more and more wound up and hence perform even worse. When I did my first solo however things changed dramatically. I felt like all the pressure was off me, and the subsequent improvement in my flying was so great that I finished off the PPL in chilled out ease.
In my case certainly my problems were psychological rather than due to a lack off aptitude and I think that is the case for the majority of people who get frustrated with their progress.
2) Your instructor can make a huge difference. I had a couple of different ones during my ppl, one of which was completely useless, every hour spent with him was a waste of time and money, in fact Im almost sure that he was deliberately holding things back to make me do more hours and thus pay him more money. The guy was getting me more and more wound up and things finally came to a head when during circuit training I blew my top and let fly with a torrent of abuse at him, landed the plane and ended the flight. My next flight with a different instructor was a joy, and the change of instructor enabled me to gt my first solo in and never look back.

So in essence, dont put pressure on yourself, focus on being proud of what you have learny already rather than on what you cant master and be prepared to chuck in your instructor if they are crap, which a good many of them are.

[NutLoose]

Right then. As I see it, there are 39 (ish) people, so far, all trying to encourage you here. That's a considerable amount of divese experience, but the overall picture is the same: mad_bear in an aeroplane, flying. True, there are some varieties in colour, texture, etc, but if 39 (ish) ppruners can agree :eek: , it must be a good picture...:D


make that 40................ Stick with it Bud.

[cessna l plate]

A few weeks since we heard from Mad Bear, any chance of an update??

[mad_bear]

Hi

A few weeks since we heard from Mad Bear, any chance of an update??

Well, I've flown ten hours now, which is the point at which I told myself I would have to make a go/no-go decision on this flying lark. I think I've improved a bit but, because I'm flying circuits at the moment, my inability to maintain a constant direction and altitude isn't quite so obvious as it was :)

I can take off, fly a circuit without getting lost, and land without the instructor grabbing the controls until the last two seconds. I feel reasonably confident that I will be able to make a solo flight before my money runs out.

But the more I think about it, the more it is clear that I will not be able to afford to fly on any kind of regular basis. It's not that I don't have the money, it's just that there are too many stronger claims on it. In a way, it would be an easier decision if I really didn't have the money; then there wouldn't even be a decision to make.

So my feeling at present is that I want to carry on until I have at least made a solo flight -- money permitting -- and then retire gracefully.

I guess the only thing that would change my mind would be finding something that is cheaper to fly in the long term, and which I could fly rather than wear. Since I'm 6'5", 17st, and 3' wide at the shoulders, that doesn't seem very likely.

Best wishes
Bear

[Whirlybird]

But the more I think about it, the more it is clear that I will not be able to afford to fly on any kind of regular basis. It's not that I don't have the money, it's just that there are too many stronger claims on it. In a way, it would be an easier decision if I really didn't have the money; then there wouldn't even be a decision to make.

Oh dear, what a dilemma! Sometimes I am just so, so glad that I'm an impulsive person who doesn't plan my life down to the last dotted i and crossed t....or I'd never ever have made it to this great job I have as a flying instructor. After all, none of my decisions about flying made any long term sense, as lots of people made it their business to tell me at the time. But I went with the flow, and my gut feelings, and what I wanted to do at the time, and it worked. :ok:

If you want more details, mad bear, do a search for my posts - I've lived my life rather too publicly on PPRuNe for a number of years. :(

[Brian304]

Well i'm probably the youngest here, i'm only 17, but started when I was 14. And at that time they said I was the worst student going and I shouldn't fly, and don't think any of the instructors wanted to fly with me either. Then I stopped flying for 2 years. Just recently over the summer, I completed my PPL in america with first time pass in like a month and a half. So I think its about determination and not about age or skills, as its only a PPL, its a license to learn as my old instructor used to say. So don't stop yourself, go and get a new flying school or instructor, that would probably help.

Take Care and Good Luck.;)

Brian304:ok:

[mad_bear]

Hi

Oh dear, what a dilemma! Sometimes I am just so, so glad that I'm an impulsive person who doesn't plan my life down to the last dotted i and crossed t....or I'd never ever have made it to this great job I have as a flying instructor. After all, none of my decisions about flying made any long term sense, as lots of people made it their business to tell me at the time. But I went with the flow, and my gut feelings, and what I wanted to do at the time, and it worked. :ok:


Fair enough, but people are all different, no? I imagine that many of the decisions I've made in the last ten years or so would have been different if I didn't have children. But I do and, while I would be happy to live in a garden shed and eat nothing but baked beans to finance my flying, they would not. Nor should they have to. Much as I like flying, my family is more important to me than flying.

The terrible thing is that, if I told my wife and kids that we had to move to a crumbly old house and give up holidays, etc., so that I could pay for my flying, they would support me. And that is precisely why I couldn't contemplate such a thing. I guess that probably makes no sense to anyone but me.

What's more, I can't really bugger off to a cheaper country for a month to learn to fly, appealing as the idea might be. If I was contemplating a career change that might be a reasonable action to take, but for a hobby? I don't think I can justify that.

I don't want to put my life story up for public scrutiny, but my wife and I put off having children until almost the latest that was biologically possible. We both had things we wanted to do that would be difficult or impossible with children. The natural consequence of this decision, however, is that my children will be entering higher education, or starting work, or whatever, sometime after I have (hopefully) retired. The money I am spending on flying -- money I am incontrovertibly spending on myself -- is money that I ought to be saving to give the next generation of Bears a helping hand when they need it most. Of course, they may grow up to be stockbrokers or captains of industry, in which case they can bloody well pay for me to resume flying in my dotage :)

It's not a case of planning my life to the last dotted t, but having children in your 40s does mean you have to be a bit careful about long-term finances. You don't have as long to recover from financial screw-ups that affect your kids as you do when you're 20.

As I said, the situation would perhaps be different if I could fly anything smaller than a C172; but anything smaller is like a coat on me.

Best wishes
Bear

[S-Works]

Best to retire gtracefully now then. No point in wasting the money on getting solo and giving up because if you dont make it in the budget you will be even more dissapointed.

Good luck in the future.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

If there is any way at all of completeing that PPL, mb, - do it! With the right group, and depending what sort of flying you want to do, post-PPL flying can be a lot cheaper than flying training - with some experience under your belt it can even be free!

It's very easy to justify giving up, and maybe you should. But I'd advise that, if it's at all possible, then live your dream. It'll be worth it.:ok:

[Whirlybird]

OK, mad bear, point taken. No, I don't have kids, and it does make a difference. But neither am I 20...in fact, I can hardly even remember being 20. :{ .

So, here's a possible plan of action for you....

Do all the flying you can now, until the money you can sensibly spend on flying runs out. Don't worry about whether that's after first solo, halfway through, when you're nearly there, or whatever. So long as you're enjoying it, stop being so goal-orientated and just fly.

Don't retire. Or retire, and get another job. Or move to part time work. Use the extra money to fly. Or use it now to fly, and work then to help your kids. If they need your help that much...I had an idea that starting work meant you were earning money so didn't need parental help. But like you said, I don't have kids, and I'm not planning on telling you how to bring yours up.

60 or thereabouts is NOT 'in your dotage', not these days. No, I'm not quite that old, but pretty close. So trust me on this. And having started a new career fairly recently, no way am I going to retire simply because the calendar says I should, or because our ageist society thinks I'm getting old. Now, maybe you're in a job which will make you retire, but there's nothing to stop you doing something else to earn money, if you want to. Maybe you don't. Maybe you want to put your feet up. Fair enough. But I think you have a choice.

What I'm trying to say is that I think you have options. But I'm beginning to get the feeling that you're talking yourself out of continuing with flying by saying that you don't - that you can't afford it, that there's nothing you fit into, that it'll take you too long, etc etc. Look, if you want to give up, give up. It's your choice. But maybe you should look at what you really want rather than clouding the issue so thoroughly.

[cessna l plate]

As usual it is hard to disagree with what Whirls says.

Although I am a pesimistic soul at the best of times, even I do not think that I'll never fly again. Alright I have had to concede that I am not going to fly again this year, and to be honest the future doesn't look that rosy anyway. My option is a return to being a part time DJ, something I stopped doing earlier this year to spend time with my family, somthing that I don't really want to return to either.

Yes, I know what a strain it can be with kids, but as for your kids needing funding when you are in your dotage, well as Whirls says, 60+ is not a dotage these days. Indeed I have many a "right hand seat ride" from an old guy at my old club, now well into his 80's he keeps having the odd hour here and there. As long as you can pass the medical, there is nothing to stop you from flying at 120 years old.

It does sound like you are trying to justify not doing it to yourself though, and with a family at the heart and root of your anguish, it is easy to understand your rationale. As I said on a earlier post, after first solo you can call yourself a pilot. No-one can take that away from you.

On the other hand, I appreciate that going abroad is a lot cheaper, it is just a matter of justifying the time away from home. As for it being a decision for career not hobby, well, I can assure you that post ppl flying does get cheaper, even if you rent a club plane you are not paying for an instructor are you? Or you can join a group or whatever. I can also assure you that your flying career will outlast your employment one! Remember that in aviation even the amateurs have to behave like professionals if they want grey hair! (attributed to Alan "Bunny" Bramson)

The final decision is always going to be yours. Only you can justify the expense to yourself and your family, and it is certainly noble that you do put your family before yourself, many these days don't. I do this as well, although I do trade a little to enable a spot of aviation here and there.

I once heard of two old guys, well into their 80's, with type ratings that include Hurricane and Spitfire if you get my meaning. One was totally blind, the other as deaf as a post. Every now and then they would pitch up at the flying club to go flying. OK the CFI always went with them, as neither could hold a medical, but it was always claimed that the blind guy was a better pilot than a lot could ever hope to be and could do straight and level better than anyone! The moral of this story is that these two guys had a love of flying, and although mother nature hadn't been kind to them on the medial front they still wanted to, and did, get into the air whenever they wanted. They commited aviation, we all have our own brand of it you know.

Today we have project propeller. This is a charity where ppl's with access to a plane take WW2 pilot veterans from an airfield local to where they live to a fly in, and take them home again afterwards. This embodies the debt we all owe to anyone from that era, and secondly what a great and kind group we are in aviation. This thread embodies that, in that we have all given our time to help you, point you in the right direction and provide advice where we can. The final decision has to be yours, and I hope you make the right decision, whtaever it may be, for the right reasons. Sometines you have to do something for yourself you know!

Just one final point, you will let us know your final decision, wont you?

[stickandrudderman]

My God, I'm glad I don't think that much, I'd never get anything done!!:8

[cessna l plate]

I totally know what you mean Paris. I got up this morning took one look out of the window and thought "nice day for flying". Not "I need to de-ice the car" or anything to do with work, just nice day for flying.

This has to be the qualifier to the question "are you hooked?"

[mad_bear]

Hi

My God, I'm glad I don't think that much, I'd never get anything done!!:8

I dunno... some of the comments above make me sound like an unadventurous, plodding old fart. I'm not like that, really I'm not.

Or am I?

When I say ``I would really like to fly but, having regard to my family responsibilities, I don't think I can justify the cost in the long term'', perhaps that automatically makes me a plodding, unadventurous old fart?

Perhaps it is the case that you can only fly (for a hobby, not a job) if you're the kind of person who says `To hell with the future!'. Maybe being the kind of person who likes to know the long-term costs necessarily makes me unsuitable for flying? Or is it that thinking that there might just be more important things than flying, denotes a fatal lack of enthusiasm?

Comments welcome.

Best wishes
Bear

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Or is it that thinking that there might just be more important things than flying, denotes a fatal lack of enthusiasm?


Ha! Yes, that could be it. Few people can ever afford to fly. there are always 'more important' things to spend the money on, and there are about 10 squillion reasons why, unless money and time are no objects, you'd be mad to even consider it.

You have to WANT to do it badly enough that you will..... else you won't, if you get me drift.

SSD

[bigflyingrob]

The only one who ever worried me was one when asked what his first thoughts on engine failure were thought for a while. I drank my coffee, fed my dog and planned the next ice age. Eventually he came up with "someones responsible!" He was planning to sue the engine builder rather than try and get it down.
I passed him onwards but whether he ever go tthe idea i don't know!

[cessna l plate]

As I have said before, not a single one of us can afford this hobby. Some may have more financial resources than others, but no-one can actually afford it when the benchmark is family, houses, holidays and so-on.
We all have pulls on our money, it is a question of what you do with the disposable part that leaves room for manouver. It works like this, say I have enough disposable income to take my family to Florida for 3 weeks every year. Why not have 2 weeks in Spain or France, works out about half the price, and guess what happens with the balance??? Buy a new car every 4 years and not every 2. You get the picture?
No-one can fault you at all for putting your family first, we have all done that, and indeed that is what I am doing at the moment, self enforced grounding as the resources I made available have gone. It would be very easy for me to apply for another credit card and carry on. But how would I make the payments?
The thing to remember, and I have said this before as well, is that no matter what your money problems are, in the air is no place to consider them. I had a raging fit at the £10 a go landing fees at Sandtoft the other week, I was told of the cost on the 4th circuit. My fit started after landing, not before. If you start worrying about a landing fee at 50' on final with a 10kt crosswind I can guarentee that you will get more for your fee than you bargained for, things like firemen, ambulances, AAIB insectors, things like that.
Why not make the learning process part of your long term goal for flying. For instance, this year aim for first solo then stop. Next year aim to get upto nav then stop. The year after aim to finish it off. There is no time limit on the learning process and hours done now will still count towards the 45 in 10 or 20 years time, so what's the rush? Why put yourself through this, just re-evaluate your aiming points and stop trying to jump through hoops. You are not training to be an airline pilot, so you are, like the rest of us, flying for fun. Don't beat yourself up about it, just have fun and enjoy it!

[possel]

<snip>

I guess the only thing that would change my mind would be finding something that is cheaper to fly in the long term, and which I could fly rather than wear. Since I'm 6'5", 17st, and 3' wide at the shoulders, that doesn't seem very likely.


The answer to that problem could be to buy a share in a Beagle Pup 150 - shame I sold mine a couple of years ago.

[cessna l plate]

This was a very interesting thread a couple of months ago. Perhaps Mad Bear would update us a little. Did you carry on, jack it in, what??

[sternone]

This was a very interesting thread a couple of months ago. Perhaps Mad Bear would update us a little. Did you carry on, jack it in, what??

I have read these 7 pages completely and what i'm missing to this bear guy maybe the advice to start also home on Flight Simulator ? I know many of you will protest but isn't it a way ahead if you completely master everything on the computer ? it helped me looking at to much different things at the same time...

So my advice also is get those products: ( i have them both and love it)
CH Products Pro Pedals USB Flight Simulator Pedals
CH Products Flight Sim Yoke USB

Flight simulator X is very very nice, i love it alot, i also fly X-plane since i'm on mac (yes i run MS Flight simulator X on my intel core 2 duo MAC in dual boot)

http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulatorx/

and:

http://www.x-plane.org/
(much more realistic feeling than FSX)

It helped me to achieve faster quality time in the air.. good luck!

[sternone]

http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulatorx/
and:
http://www.x-plane.org/
(much more realistic feeling than FSX)


also don't forget that the new FS X has now Garmin G1000 support!!

[cessna l plate]

At the risk of accusing you of hi-jacking the thread, most pilots or students on here will agree that whilst MS flight sim is "useful" for instrument work, as an exact facsimile of the real thing it sucks! I watched a programme the other night interviewing the people that write the software, and they start well enough, but then admitted "dumbing down" what it does so as not to overload those that aren't pilots in the real world.

The basis of this thread is someone with a passion for aviation who is (was) struggling to justify the expense to himself, and on the whole we were providing a degree of support to him in the hopes that he will join our ranks and enjoy his flying. So Mad Bear, where are you??

[sternone]

At the risk of accusing you of hi-jacking the thread, most pilots or students on here will agree that whilst MS flight sim is "useful" for instrument work, as an exact facsimile of the real thing it sucks! I watched a programme the other night interviewing the people that write the software, and they start well enough, but then admitted "dumbing down" what it does so as not to overload those that aren't pilots in the real world.
The basis of this thread is someone with a passion for aviation who is (was) struggling to justify the expense to himself, and on the whole we were providing a degree of support to him in the hopes that he will join our ranks and enjoy his flying. So Mad Bear, where are you??

Yes i agree, it sucks completely compared to the real deal !! But i hope you got my point, PS: that's why X-plane is more realistic, the lead programmer is a Cirrus pilot....give it a try, you can download a trial verison from the site