To get or not to get an IMC rating

[ZuluWhiskey]

Hey all, I've tried searching for this and no luck so here goes...

I'm in the process of planning hour building to 150 hours before starting the CPL (currently PPL with ~90hours). Looking at Clive Hughes' book, he first says that the IMC "gives no exceptions from the JAA IR" and then later on "IMC holders may be exempted from 7 hours of flight instruction of the IR module". Obviously I'm not too sure which one to believe. Furthermore I've been told by a FI that the IMC can reduce hours.

What's the definitive rule? Will the IMC reduce the amount of IR hours required? I think it would be useful to do during hour building but I doubt I'll bother if it's unnecessary expense.

Cheers

[Olof]

IMC meaning exactly what in this case?

[GusHoneybun]

There is no reduction in the IR course if you hold an IMC rating. You will need to do 55 hours minimum (50 if you hold a CPL).

That all said, it is a worthwhile rating to get as part of your hourbuilding as it gives you a bit of a headstart on your IR.

olof, the IMC (Instrument Meterological Conditions) is a UK only rating. It is a cut down IR, allowing the holder to fly in zero vis outside of Class A airspace. The minimums for instrument approachs are raised by 200 feet. It is aimed at PPL holders who want the ability to fly on instruments, but don't want all the hassle of a full blown IR.

[FougaMagister]

I'll second that. While the IMC rating is a CAA (not a JAA) rating, and therefore is not valid overseas and not necessary as part of the JAA frozen ATPL, it does give a good headstart with the IR - and the ATPL groundschool. Also, it helps to do hour-building in marginal VFR in the UK when you would otherwise look at the wx forecast and think: "mmmm... maybe not today". As has been mentioned, the minima are higher than for the IR (plus 200', with a minimum DH of 500' AGL), but I found that having done the IMC rating helped a great deal when getting to grips with the IR. By then, I had actually practiced NDB/VOR holds, precision and non-precision approaches, etc.

Cheers :cool:

P.S.: another piece of good news is that the IMC validity is 25 months, and that it is renewed by that amount every time you renew your SPA/IR.

[ZuluWhiskey]

Thanks GusHoneybun and Fougamagister for the answers to my question, much appreciated! I wasn't going to consider the IMC if it didn't reduce IR time (due to cost) but from what you've both said it sounds like it's worth the effort during hourbuilding.

Thanks again
ZW

[FougaMagister]

It's ironical that the one rating that isn't mandatory is one of the most useful that you can get...

Cheers :cool:

[High Wing Drifter]

Keep in mind that you will do quite a bit of instrument training during your CPL, so if you are planning on doing the CPL before the IR then maybe an IMCR will not add much. You do need to be pretty comfortable with instruments in the CPL skills test. Granted, there are the approaches and holds, but as an IMC holder I'm not convinced I got much from the IMC as there are a number of differences in the techniques so some unlearning might be required. A clean sheet start in the IR might actually be a benefit.

If you are thinking about using the IMC during hour building, then consider that the majority of IMC holders have not used the rating in anger, so without knowing anything about you I would venture that statistically at least, niether will you so there is a possibility that it will just be more unecessary expense.

With regard to other arguments that you learn to fly more accurately my experience, as one who is no more than average, that my ability to fly and plan accurately and efficiently is related more to my mental attitude and not really from any extra ratings I've collected along the way.

[Cutoff]

I had an IMC before both the CPL and IR, I would recommend it if you have the spare cash. It makes hour building easier and more fun as you can tackle cross countries with a slightly more relaxed view, of the weather for example, it also means that whilst you do need to do 10 hours instrument work toward a CPL, it means that this 10 hours can be used where you are weakest rather than trying to cover everything, and an IMC also stands you in good stead for the IR itself. You are already familiar with plates, NDB's / VOR's etc and have come across some of the radio chatter.

[C Hughes]

Please note that my book says " IMC holders may be exemptedfrom 7 hours of flight instruction of the IR module in the future".

Easy to miss the last three words!

[no sponsor]

Try and be taught the IMC rating by someone who is an experienced IR rated pilot. You will be wasting your time and money if the instructor does not have an IR, and you will most likely have to be un-taught bad habits.

If you are taught well, it should mean you pass the IR in minimum hrs, and that will save you money considering every extra IR hr will cost around 350 pounds!

Also consider that the IMC does not make you an IR pilot.

[BEagle]

Standby for some very good news about the IMC Rating coming soon!

It seems that the UK IMC Rating will receive credit as the 'basic' phase of the forthcoming 'modular' IR - a recent LSST meeting at Hoofdorp has confirmed this. But I have no information about the precise accreditation or timescale..

One thing which I will certainly be pressing for is that wherever completed, the UK IMC Rating should receive this credit - including at a RF. Not just at a FTO! The IMC Skill Test is carried out by a CAA-authorised Examiner, so there should be no logical reason to refuse recognition of training carried out at RFs.

[LFS]

Have also heard a similar thing to Beagle. The original draft was saying 10 hours credit towards the IR reducing it to a 45 hour course. Although it did mention in there that the IMC would have to have been completed at an FTO and you would receive a certificate for completing the basic IR module. There was also potential that the 10 hours instruments in the CPL would also count as this basic module. None of this is gospel and until the CAA/JAA produce the final document we won't know the exact details but it is a step in the right direction.

[moggiee]

Copied from the other, similar thread.

Most of our customers who have been through the system generally reckon that doing an IMC rating whilst hour building makes sense. Certainly more sense than just boring holes in the sky for little benefit.

An IMC rating gives you more flexibility when flying solo building your hours, it gives IF skills that can built upon doing the IR training and it is cheaper to keep current than an IR if you subsequently take a while to get a job!

There IS little point in doing it as an add on after completing hours building, though - you can get an IMC rating signed off by the CAA examiner when you do your IRT - but as a near-freebie to be done during hour building it makes plenty of sense.

[2close]

I've also heard that there is talk of introducing a 10 hour post-PPL 'Basic Instrument Flight Training' accreditation for PPLs which can be credited from either the UK IMC qualification or towards the full JAA IR.

It's all outlined here.

http://www.pplir.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62

By the way, I think you'll find that the increased minima for IMC rated pilots is advisory only and not mandatory. The only legally required minima are those stated on the IAPs. If I'm wrong I'm in a world of pooh!!

2close

[chrisbl]

...............By the way, I think you'll find that the increased minima for IMC rated pilots is advisory only and not mandatory. The only legally required minima are those stated on the IAPs. If I'm wrong I'm in a world of pooh!!
2close
You are not wrong - they are recommended only and if a pilot is in good practice then there is no reason why he/she should not fly nearer the mins on the IAP.
IR or IMC whatever, the personal mins we set ourselves are often above the legal minima anyway.

[kala87]

Having done both the IMC and JAR ME/IR ratings, I'm surprised to learn that the approach minima for IMC-only rated PPL's are advisory. I was taught that the DH on an ILS for an IMC rated PPL was never less than 500 ft above rwy threshold height, and never below 600 ft below rwy threshold height for an NDB approach.

Personally, I found that having an IMC rating before doing the ME/IR was not as useful as I thought it would be. Although I was familiar with approach plates and procedures, the step up to flying IFR in a twin was a big one. Also, the IR is done to commercial standards, with big emphasis on managing the flight, check lists etc. You are very very busy flying instruments in a light twin to commercial standards, and the IMC rating did little to prepare me for this.

I agree though that doing an IMC would be useful for your hours-building cross-country flying, and is a good way to become more familiar with weather and flying approaches in IMC.

[High Wing Drifter]

kala87,

With regard to the usefulness of the IMC for the IR, I agree with you. I suppose it comes down to what area you struggle with. I suggest you are similar to me in that getting to grips with the enroute workload was the primary constraint, the terminal area procedures and instrument flying per se isn't really a problem. Somebody who would otherwise struggle with those terminal procedures, holds, etc could possibly benefit. But how do you know? I think any benefit would be marginal.

The increased minima for an IMCR are indeed advisory. I specifically refer to the the addition of 200' (plus PEC) with a minima of 500' (precision) and 600' (non-precision) respectively.

The guidelines for the IMCR are laid out here: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aerodromes/30101.PDF (para 3.3.2.1)

As it happens, I had a specific issue with the wording as the paragraph seems to infer that the 200'/300' adjustment is optional but the 500'/600' is mandatory by way of the use the words "but" and "absolute". I emailed the CAA for a clarification and the reply went along the lines of: The IMCR increases in minima are all optional, but if you were to come a cropper and live when below those recommendations, we'll probably use it in the ensuing prosecution against you!

[topcat450]

Just thinking out aloud here - but as far as I can tell there's nothing to stop you going for your IR before your CPL? Is there?

Assuming you got that, that'd knock 10 hrs off your CPL course too.

If after doing that you were still short of hours - you'd be able to get them in what would be marginal weather for a bog-standard PPL, hopefully without much difficulty.

Unless I'm missing something blindingly obvious?

[Bob Stinger]

Do your IMC .I did mine when i had around 80-90 hours , since then I have used it in anger about 15 hours worth of anger.
I now have just over 230 hours and as others have stated it improves your VFR flying and gives me that extra confidence if it looks a bit dodgy you can carry on or you can turn back without sweat running down your brow.
I am studying for the ATPL exams at the minute so I don't know if the IMC will benifit me if I attempt an IR.
However if you want to hour build go and get it, it will help!!

[Pwrigtom]

Hi

I've recently come into some money and would like to use it to help my flying; i currently have a basic PPL and have thought that an IMC would be useful so that was what I have decided to spend my money on. However I’m now informed by several sources that this my not be the best option if i want to go into such schemes as CTC or oxford as the extra training will hinder by chances of getting excepted, as they prefer a fresh start.

I was hoping someone could give me some advice, just for background I’m currently at uni doing aero engineering and would not be intending to start professional training for another 2 years.

Thanks

Tom

[Superfly]

Hi,

If you consider doing a CPL/IR, whether it being modular or Integrated, later on I don't see the point in doing it. However you'll be able to use the money for an MCC for example. Personally I think that the IMC may be good if you intend to keep flying on a PPL. Otherwise it is a waste of money.

SF

[gcolyer]

I actualy think do it. Especialy as you want to go commercial,

1) It i will count as hours towards the 150 hour commercial pre-req
2) The hours will be quality hours and not just buzzing about for fun
3) Your flying skills will improve to meet the minimas required for IMC (i.e. Altitude and course holding)
4) It lifts some weather restrictions for you private flying
5) Gives you a bit of security if you get caught in crap weather
6) It will certainly give you a heads up when it is time to do your IR

[Callsign Kilo]

I did an IMC almost straight after completing my PPL. Although it may be considered to be an extra extravagance to those on the commercial route, I did find it gave me a great insight into instrument flying and whether I had the ability to cope with it. I realise the IMC and the IR are two completely different kettles of fish, however I felt that my rating helped to improve the accuracy of my flying and RT, alongside providing me with a greater appreciation of the many aspects of IFR flight. I would consider myself to be a more confident PPL because of it.

CK

[swervin'mervin]

I did it the other way round - when you apply for your IR to be issued as long as you REQUEST it you will receive an IMC for Free - yes FREE from the CAA! What is the point? Well once your SP MEIR becomes a multi crew IR (hopefully you get a job) then you cant fly single pilot IR anymore - get an IMC which lasts 25 months will cover you though for pleasure flying and is much cheaper to renew than the multi IR for single crew.

[TooL8]

IMHO, Save your money. If you're committed to a full time course (integrated or modular), put the money you would have used for the IMC into a bank account called either i) Type rating I'll need to get a job later, or ii) SIM check practice prior to interview, or iii) IR refresher, or iv) a host of other really useful ways to spend your money towards your ultimate goal.

There's a well-trodden path to ATPL and IMC doesn't factor.

PS I had an IMC (now lapsed), and boy is that useful towards getting an airline job, NOT :(

[bluepeely]

If you've come into some money why not get a share in a plane and build some hours up, that or buy me a new car;)

[C172Navigator]

I did my IMC prior to starting the CPL and IR, and I think it was good preparation, and value for money.
If you're renting from a club then the difference in cost per hour from flying solo or with an instructor isn't that great - and if you have been flying for a while since your PPL it is good to get everything polished up by having the instructor there watching and pointing little errors or sloppy habbits.
You do some basic instrument work in the CPL, much the same as from the IMC, so it will prepare you well. It will also prepare you for the IR - and maybe save you some money too - learning the basics on a C172 or PA28 will be less costly than doing it in a Seneca for example during the IR.
Once you have the IR and CPL issued then it makes little difference that you did the IMC, and when you do the courses you won't know if the IMC saved you time and money, but I would say if you want to do it then why not?

[crap pilot]

Have you considerd an aerobatics course? I doubt that this would hinder your chances with CTC and would improve your handleing as well as making you a more confident pilot. Its also a LOT of fun.

[Jinkster]

Save the money - you never know when you might need it!

IR renewals, Flying Instructor Course, - Test fails (hopefully not many of those) or a Type Rating!

Regards,

Jinkster

"A Tight Yorkshire Man"
:ok:

[speedbird001]

Hi all,
I'm a relatively low hrs PPL and in the middle of doing Mod 1 ATPL exams, i'm really interested in doing an IMC rating as i don't know nearly enough about the instruments VOR etc, what i want to know is what are the pluses and minuses in doing it.
Cheers
SB001

[BEagle]

Pluses - it will improve your flying skills, awareness and airmanship. It will also mean that you will be able to fly more often at this time of year!

Minuses - it costs more money than the same time spent achieving valueless PIC 'hours' stooging up and down the coast of Florida.

[robdesbois]

What do people generally do at thsi point? I was reading up on this last night, and recall that if you do an IMC during your ATPL exams, then later when you come to do your IR you can knock off some hours, and of course already have some instrument flight hours in the bag.
Are you likely to save money / time overall by doing IMC then IR instead of just waiting for IR post-CPL?

--Rob

[MikeAlphaBravo]

I have just completed my CPL/ME/IR and can highly recommend doing IMC during hours building. It certainly helped me with my IR. With regard to the hours reduction, not sure on that one, but I think doing an IR in 50 hours will be challenging enough for most. Speedbird, where are you flying from at the moment? I see you are from Manchester and can highly recommend an IMC course by Martin Rushbrooke @ Barton. The thing is there are IMC's and there are good IMC's and you wont get more professional than Martin.
PM if you need to know more.

[LFS]

Unfortunately you do not get a reduction in the hours on the IR for having an IMC. You used to get a credit but not anymore. There are some proposals to reintroduce a credit for the IMC but I am not sure at what stage they are at.

[speedbird001]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys
SB001

[ZuluWhiskey]

I'm in a similar position and asked the same sort of question back in June. Here's the link to the thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=231827

Incidentally, after weighing it up, I think I'm going to start the IMC quite soon as it's clearly more constructive hour building than anything else I could do before getting to 150hrs. Plus, it's not drastically more expensive than flying solo at a club, say £30/hour extra, for 15 hours, that's £450 and a bit more for the exams and our friends at the caa (£100?). Then with the rating, you might save some money on the IR when you really start spending. My opinion anyway!

All the best