U.S Flag ? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Roadster280

13th Sep 2006, 03:47

Not too sure if this has been asked before. . .
but i'm interested to know. . why do U.S troops wear there flag patch on there uniforms backwards ?
:confused:

Hmm, depends on your definition of "backwards".

If worn on the left shoulder, the familiar layout is appropriate. If the same patch is applied to the right shoulder, it is backwards, as the stars canton would be to the rear.

If, alternatively, the correct patch has been produced for wear on the right shoulder, it may appear to be backwards, with the stars to the right, but is in fact correct.

Essentially, the idea is to signify advance, not retreat.

In the military, such things are taken appropriately seriously, but it is not uncommon to see tin-pot security uniforms with the "normal" flag on the right shoulder, and it looks ridiculous.

speeddial

13th Sep 2006, 07:36

It can be worn on either shoulder but the stars always face the front, to replicate the way the flag hung when it was carried into battle on a staff.

The stars on the flag always face forwards (if sideways on) or to the left (front on).

jetflite

13th Sep 2006, 08:35

Thanks for the info. . my interpretation was it was worn in facing the heart, thanks for the help.
JF

Zoom

13th Sep 2006, 09:38

On the subject of national flags, I get really wound up when I see the Union Flag being carried upside down, usually by sportspersons who have just won a gold medal at an athletics meet (rare indeed) or by the baying morons in the crowd at international football matches. :ugh:

Nat O'Thee

13th Sep 2006, 10:14

I am told that the US will wear the stars and stripes on their left arm on normal duties and peacekeeping, and only on the right arm during warfighting, peace enforcing ops.

Saw this in Albania in the late 90's when we had USAF units supporting the refugee ops with flag on left arm and then US army units that were war fighting with the flag on the right arm.

Dont know if its still the case?

cockneyrock

13th Sep 2006, 10:39

I heard that it had something to do with the child labourers in the third World Country employed to make the badge, produced them the wrong way round?:}

Hirsutesme

13th Sep 2006, 11:23

I thought it was so you could identify them in the rear view mirror:E

yggorf

13th Sep 2006, 12:40

Essentially, the idea is to signify advance, not retreat
Ah but then, how do the Canadians, Dutch, Swiss etc. show that they advance and not retreat?

jetflite

13th Sep 2006, 12:45

Ah but then, how do the Canadians, Dutch, Swiss etc. show that they advance and not retreat?

clearly a smart choice in flag design. . the can advance and retreat at will!

hence the reason America & Australia only advance!

phil gollin

14th Sep 2006, 07:29

For those who used to be train spotters when young and happy

British Railways (in the days they used steam kettles to haul things around) used to have a proper crest (known by all and sundry as the "lion on a dartboard") and did the same thing, changing its orientation so that the lion faced forward when looked at from either side.

Someone pointed this out to the school of heralds (or whoever) and they told them it was wrong, any heraldic device only has one way of being displayed and hence British Railways had to change things around.

I would assume flags are also heraldic devices.

(Also, are people who paint the flag on planes as if they were just flags flying from a flagpole just stealth wanna-bes who think their plane is invisible ?)

Roadster280

14th Sep 2006, 10:44

Someone pointed this out to the school of heralds (or whoever) and they told them it was wrong

Be sure to let the US Department of Defense know, won't you?

Surely it is up to each nation to decide the orientation and flag protocol for themselves, as their national history evolves. The flag of Sweden for example has been around since 1569, and predates the UK's flag, as the Kingdom was not United then.

speeddial

14th Sep 2006, 11:06

The DoD maybe wrong but Americans, in general, as a nation respect their flag and country far more than we here in England do.

Our flag is our nation's identity, if only it were respected like some people respect their religion.

OCCWMF

14th Sep 2006, 15:47

On backwards? Is that why it's U/S?

SASless

14th Sep 2006, 17:15

Our flag is a symbol of "Freedom" that was won by defeating an oppressive government. Thus, we honour that symbol as a way of remembering what this country is all about and understand what individual freedom means. Our Constitution limits the power of government and protects the individual against the excesses of oppressive government.

So it would seem The People ,in this country, see the flag as more than a mere national ensign.

Those who have fought under that banner have even a stronger affection for the flag than those who have not. Every Veteran is entitled to a flag covering their casket at their funeral and it is presented to the next-of-kin after being folded by the Honor Guard.

We buried a young Marine a few weeks back, killed in action in Iraq. Members of the VFW, American Legion, Marine Corps League, and others attended the funeral. Retired Marines were in their Dress Blues, Active Duty Marines were there in Dress Blues, others were wearing Red Blazers as members of the Marine Corp League, other Veterans wore their headgear.

The sight of the Flag, smell of cordite following the firing of the salute, and the sound of Taps made for a very emotional experience.

Yes, that Flag is special to us.

derekl

14th Sep 2006, 23:27

SASless: Indeed.

But the founding fathers retained one connection: the colo(u)rs of the flag derived directly from the red, white and blue of the Union flag of the United Kingdom.

Blood is thicker than water.

GreenKnight121

15th Sep 2006, 00:10

http://www.usflag.org/colors.html

What do the colors of the Flag mean?

Sentimental writers and orators sometimes ascribe meanings to the colors in the flag. The practice is erroneous, as are statements on this subject attributed to George Washington and other founders of the country.

From the book "Our Flag" published in 1989 by the House of Representatives...
"On July 4, 1776, the Continental Congress passed a resolution authorizing a committee to devise a seal for the United States of America. This mission, designed to reflect the Founding Fathers' beliefs, values, and sovereignty of the new Nation, did not become a reality until June 20, 1782. In heraldic devices, such as seals, each element has a specific meaning. Even colors have specific meanings. The colors red, white, and blue did not have meanings for The Stars and Stripes when it was adopted in 1777. However, the colors in the Great Seal did have specific meanings. Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress, reporting to Congress on the Seal, stated:
"The colors of the pales (the vertical stripes) are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness & valour, and Blue, the color of the Chief (the broad band above the stripes) signifies vigilance, perseverance & justice." Also this from a book about the flag published in 1977 by the House of Representatives...
"The star is a symbol of the heavens and the divine goal to which man has aspired from time immemorial; the stripe is symbolic of the rays of light emanating from the sun."

Roadster280

15th Sep 2006, 00:58

The Grand Union Flag of 1775 seems to be the prototype.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j99/roadster280/300px-Grand_Union_Flag.jpg

A quote from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Union_Flag) on the subject:

At the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776, this was the most commonly flown flag, and was present at the naming of the country, "the United States of America," on September 9, 1776. The flag was the official flag for the beginning of the American Revolution. The Grand Union Flag formed the basis of the Stars and Stripes, which would adopt stars for independent states instead of British colours for British colonies.

Seems pretty clear to me.

SASless

15th Sep 2006, 01:16

Flag Folding Ceremony

UNITED STATES FLAG STARS AND STRIPES FOLDING CEREMONY

We fold from the stripes toward the stars, for whereas the stripes represent the thirteen original colonies that founded our republic and they are now embodied in the fifty sovereign states represented by the stars so that the stars cover the stripes.

The first fold of our Flag is a symbol of life.

The second fold is a symbol of our belief in the eternal life.

The third fold is made in honor and remembrance of the Veteran departing our ranks who gave a portion of his (her) life for the defense of our country to attain peace throughout the world not to have been in vain and shall never be forgotten.

The fourth fold represents our weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, for it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in times of war for His divine guidance.

The fifth fold is a tribute to our country, for in the words of the immortal Stephen Decatur, “Our country, in dealing with other countries, may She always be right, but it is still our country, right or wrong.”

The sixth fold for this is where our hearts lie – and it is with our hearts that we pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The seventh fold is a tribute to our Armed Forces, for it is through these same armed forces that we protect our country and our Flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of our republic.

The eighth fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the Valley of the Shadow of Death, that we might see the light of day, and this fold is made to honor Mother, for whom it flies on Mother’s Day.

The ninth fold is a tribute to our womanhood, for it has been through their faith, love, loyalty and devotion that the characters of men who have made this country great, have been molded.

The tenth fold is a tribute to Father, for he too has given of his sons for the defense of our country, since he was first born.

The eleventh fold, for in the eyes of a Hebrew citizen, this represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon, and glorifies in their eyes the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.

The twelfth fold, for in the eyes of a Christian citizen, this represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies in their eyes God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

When the Flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost, which reminds us of our national motto, “In God We Trust.” After the flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on an appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, and they, followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, have preserved for us the rights, privileges and freedom which we are enjoying today.

phil gollin

15th Sep 2006, 06:27

............. by defeating an oppressive government. .........

I thought it was a tax dispute

GreenKnight121

16th Sep 2006, 01:27

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

Read the full text... there are 28 grievances listed... only one of which has anything to do with taxes.

SASless

16th Sep 2006, 04:13

In case you did not read the text as linked....

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

We suggested the King and his men to sod off basically!

mike rondot

19th Sep 2006, 09:14

They don't. The photo was printed flipped horizontally.

SASless

19th Sep 2006, 15:43

Crossbleed,

As I recall the original population of that island called Oz have some complaints about the way they were treated as well.

At least in this country we treat their reservations as states and provide payments to them. In addition, most of the Indian Tribes have Casinos now where they continue to scalp the White Man but do so much more profitably and legally.

Did you trespassers in Oz do the same for your Aboriginal People?

Crossbleed

19th Sep 2006, 16:26

:ugh: Yeah actually, we do almost precisely that. An erstwhile welfare state created on land nobody white ever wanted.
And now they're fleecing you with their nasty casinos??
Where do they get off??

Crossbleed

19th Sep 2006, 16:38

Aboriginal law applies to many parts of the continent, and they have a great deal of autonomy over the running of this land. They don't turn it into Vegas though, I don't know why exactly. (no, they have television, so I've lied there)
The slaughter of the original inhabitants was very organised and in one state led to virtual extinction. But they were less practiced in the art of warfare compared to the North-American Indians, and this fact meant their enslavery (for want of a better word) was so comprehensive.
I deleted my original post on this topic so for those wondering what the hell is going on, SASless is replying to an invisible post.:O

tonkatechie

19th Sep 2006, 20:51

The Yanks (affectionate term before anyone kicks off) are very proud of their flag, and there are a number of rules regarding it's use and disposal, which I discovered having bought one as a souvenir (strange habit, I know) when I visited the U.S., when a a small pamphlet fell out the packaging. Aside from the usual non-flying during hours of darkness that most countries observe, I beleive it should also not be flown in the rain (cue digs about the colours running) and should only be disposed of by burning (and my memory is a little shaky, but I think it was recommended that it be done by a Veterans group? I'm sure SASless can clarify). Anyway, back to the point of the thread, when hung horizontally (say over a podium at a sports event) most countries just turn their flag 1/4 turn clockwise, but the U.S. flag is turned and reversed, so that the stars remain in the left hand upper.
*Geek mode to 'OFF'*:8

Crossbleed

19th Sep 2006, 21:21

Left,Hand,Upper.
Check , roger, and Got It.
WHY??

SASless

19th Sep 2006, 21:46

Crossroad,

As to the "why"....beyond it being the specified display in that manner...I have no clue as to why. Over the years I have always found that particular situation a bit confusing. I will keep looking for the pukka gen on that.

As to retiring a flag....burning in a reverent and dignified manner is the approved method. Veterans groups, fraternal orders like the Elks and such, Boy Scout and Girl Scout groups often times offer this service.

My American Legion post maintains a "Flag Drop" for public use and periodically we will have a Flag Retirement Ceremony and retire the flags left there. It is not unusual to visit Schools and other Youth Organizations and have the kids participate in the ceremony.

Here's a link that has the rules regarding display and respect for the flag.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html#1

maxburner

20th Sep 2006, 06:32

SASLess,

I have a great affection for things American - especially the gorgeous Californian girl I rescued from all those palm trees and married. I like the reverence your flag is held in, I wish we Brits could show more respect and awe for our flag and hence our nation. I dislike the sneering attitude shown by many here towards displays of patriotism. I for one am proud of what the UK stands for and has done in defence of freedom around the world. I'm also mighty glad we choose to stand with the US on most issues.

TwoDeadDogs

20th Sep 2006, 09:37

Hi all
Next time you stroll out to a Ryanair 737, see how many of them are apparently "flagged" in the Ivory Coast.I was always led to believe that flags are painted on aircraft or vehicles or clothing as if a flagstaff was on the left, regardless of whether the carrying item was advancing or retreating., that is, either left or right side, it doesn't matter, it must be orientated correctly.The flag-folding-into-a-triangle thing has come into vogue over here for the burial of military deceased.I think it's a fashion statement more than an honorific.
regards
TDD

Roadster280

20th Sep 2006, 10:29

SASLess,
I have a great affection for things American - especially the gorgeous Californian girl I rescued from all those palm trees and married. I like the reverence your flag is held in, I wish we Brits could show more respect and awe for our flag and hence our nation. I dislike the sneering attitude shown by many here towards displays of patriotism. I for one am proud of what the UK stands for and has done in defence of freedom around the world. I'm also mighty glad we choose to stand with the US on most issues.

:D :D :D

(Especially the bit about Californians needing rescuing!)

BEagle

20th Sep 2006, 15:28

Ah - so I guess a flag 'borrowed' from the Barksdale O-Club after GV and then hidden amongst the DetCo's golf bats, before being freed to grace the 35 Sqn Crew room doesn't really meet the requirements....

It was one of those posh ones too - all the gold frilly bits, a 2-piece flag pole with an eagle on the top and a ****king heavy base plate. Stan never did know - we'd promised to take his golf bats home and 'old glory' looked like an umbrella when stashed amongst them. The base plate was stowed in some anonymous cardboard box and labelled 'Calc 3 spares' or something similar.

When 35 folded, the flag was auctioned off at the final pi$$-up. I wonder where it ended up??

derekl

20th Sep 2006, 15:54

[snip]Aside from the usual non-flying during hours of darkness that most countries observe . . .

Not how things started out in 1812 --

"Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?"

-- which would indicate that the flag was indeed flown through the hours of darkness.

West Coast

20th Sep 2006, 21:15

Beag's
From all the little adventures you post here I have to wonder if her majesty ever received a full days work out of you? How many stars were on the flag you lifted, only 48? I know its been a while for you since active duty.

SASless

20th Sep 2006, 21:49

Derek,

It is quite permissible for the flag to be flown at night....the only requirement is it must be properly illuminated.

As the fort was under bombardment by armed forces of a small nation with great ambition.....we felt it right and proper to keep it flying at the time.

forget

20th Sep 2006, 22:00

Very topical. Now say 'thank you' Sasless.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/flag.jpg

brickhistory

20th Sep 2006, 22:06

SASLess,
I have a great affection for things American - especially the gorgeous Californian girl I rescued from all those palm trees and married.

So, you abscond with a girl from California, a place with one of the best climates on the planet and hold her in Britain, not exactly known for its sunny clime.

And yet we, the US, are castigated for holding some nasty SOBs in Gitmo.

Have you no sense of decency, sir? None at all? :E

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

20th Sep 2006, 23:15

As I see it; other nations have stars and other ranks have stripes.

A very interesting thread.

Always_broken_in_wilts

20th Sep 2006, 23:37

I'm with you on this one BrickH,

I see very little sense in marrying a Californian godess, please nobody shatter my aged Baywatch enhanced illusions, and then bringing her back here for a life of wind and drizzle:eek:

Max take her home you ar@e so she can re bronze and spend the rest of her days in a swimsuit..............................and send me some pics:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol

SASless

20th Sep 2006, 23:46

This is proving to be a learning lesson to me as well....and also learning about the flag.

Now lads, getting her to Blighty is easy.....but convincing her to stay and succeeding, deserves admiration.:ok:

This link answers the questions about the design....hit the Affidavits section wherein the kids swear to the actual design.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagtale.html

Old George wanted six pointed stars but Mrs.Ross suggested she could make five pointed stars with one snip of the scissors.

Most American women are pretty clever at snipping with scissors....ask John Wayne Bobbit if you doubt me. Bear that in mind Maxburner!:eek:

Now if she had just used Pinking Shears....old John could have been a real sport!

maxburner

21st Sep 2006, 16:31

Chaps,

My Californian beach bunny (all the way from Santa Barbara) is indeed a godess. If I knew how to post a picture I would! She moved here, ''for about 2 years'', 14 years ago. Still here and loving it, but looking for us to move to a warmer and more tax-friendly climate in the next year or two.

:)

BenThere

21st Sep 2006, 18:26

Considered Hawaii, Max?

I married my Darwin, AU wife and brought her to Northern California, where I lived at the time. Way too cold for her, so we moved to Hawaii. Then 9/11 hit. Now we live in Michigan and Winter is approaching. My only salvation with her is we still have the place in Hawaii and are going to retire there for two years, then back to Oz for her.

maxburner

21st Sep 2006, 18:31

Yes, we've considered Hawaii, but favouring Spain at the moment. Then again we were in Florida in Febrruary and really enjoyed the trip - to the Destin area. Who knows what the next few years will bring.

I've visited Darwin a couple of times on stopovers, but don't really know the place. Seemed hot and flat, but that's just a quick impression. Northern CA sounds much nicer.

BenThere

21st Sep 2006, 18:42

Destin, the best place I know for oysters. Add a wide, white, sugar sand beach, clear waters with dolphins swimming between your legs ... you could do worse.

Darwin is so hot, especially in November, as to be almost uninhabitable. We're going to Cairns, I think. I like Southern Spain, loved Southern France,but I fear European living is on a rapid decline. I'm sitting in Liege, Belgium now, watching it disintegrate.

QFIhawkman

21st Sep 2006, 19:52

Can I interject for just one second please.........

WHAT THE HELL does ANY of this have to do with the US FLAG FLYING THE "WRONG" WAY ROUND ON UNIFORMS?

Any chance we can keep to thread just for once on this forum?

Always_broken_in_wilts

21st Sep 2006, 20:22

QFIhawkman

21st Sep 2006, 21:11

So let me get this right you want to talk about some daft bl@@dy flag instead of listening to these good folks describe their gorgeous women and some fantastic places round the globe:rolleyes: ......................me thinks Valley has scrambled your brains QFIdude:ugh:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

The title of the thread takes you, you hope, to a discussion on that very subject.

It somewhat blows away the original thread when you see "I'm shagging a bird from California" or whatever. If people want a thread on who they're shagging, (or married to) and where they're from, perhaps they should start that very thread.

Perhaps you, ABIW, should be the starter for ten! We all know you loadies have a girl in every port! (Or at least Gander, Halifax, etc!!)

QFIhawkman

21st Sep 2006, 23:03

Does that mean you Pilots at Valley have a sheep in every field? (Or at least Bangor, Holyhead,etc!!!)

I generally land in one place! So that makes Bangor etc out of the sheep field.

I was only having a go a ABIW as I know he lands in Halifax, Gander, Ottawa, Winnipeg, etc. Having been down route with these guys, I know there is at least some shagging going on!

And it ain't "df" alcohol induced!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

22nd Sep 2006, 01:48

Semper Jump Jet

22nd Sep 2006, 02:40

I have to say that on reflection, the US flag is way too complicated. I mean if you had to take to the streets, it'd take ages to get organised. It be a lot easier for the French , three bits of cloth and a couple of rows of stitches. Easiest of all would be the Japanese. One old bedsheet and a bottle of ketchup and you're off to the riots.

...even easier if you were on your honeymoon :hmm:

I agree to the extent that it IS complicated, but it works the other way too. Think about all those dudes burning home-made American flags world wide. You have to give them credit for all the effort they went through. Also now you know who to aim for....;)

Jim Dean

22nd Sep 2006, 05:08

I once saw the S & S put to good use as a security pass. At a secret UN base in East Timor I was approaching the gate behind 1/2 a dozen uniformed yanks(affectionate term). The UN at this place were real PITA about passes and as the little local timorese security guard challenged them for their passes the lead yank just pointed to the flag on his shoulder and breezed past. He was obviously the guide for the others (probably off the visiting ship) as I heard him go on to say, in a really strong southern drawl, "You're supposed to have pass for these places but if you get any problems, just point to the flag."!! It was very well executed.

SASless

1st Oct 2006, 23:04

I guess I am not as "Traditionalist" as I put on.....why is it I am less offended by this use of the flag as compared to some I have seen?

http://www.sexyswimwear.com/store/images/items/zoom/1226.jpg

buoy15

2nd Oct 2006, 17:01

"Flags are to be hoisted by a single halyard"

Admiralty Manual of Seamanship - c1775

Suggest a cutlass to belay the others and re-send the photos:ok:

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

3rd Oct 2006, 23:28

Ah, BR 67. Haul away handsomely!

SASless

6th Oct 2006, 18:40

Mount Suribachi, Island of Iwo Jima.....

USMC lost 8,000 Killed in Action, 16,000 wounded.....Japanese lost 21,000 Killed in Action

http://www.goodolddogs3.com/1-iwo-jima-flyover.jpg

http://www.goodolddogs3.com/1-iwo-jima-today.jpg

http://www.goodolddogs3.com/lwojimaflag3.JPG

http://www.goodolddogs3.com/iwojimaflag5.JPG

Melchett01

6th Oct 2006, 19:24

It be a lot easier for the French , three bits of cloth and a couple of rows of stitches

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh I think you'll find you are mistaken there. The French flag requires only one bit of cloth - the largest piece of pure virgin white cloth you can find. Mounted on a stick and waved vigorously whilst running in a backwards direction.:E

"For sale, French rifles, never used, only been dropped once". :ok: (Forgive me for the digression, but it was Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh that started off on the French!)

Crossbleed

8th Oct 2006, 16:19

I know the Yanks have it in for the Frogs because of 'em not having a bar of the Occupation of Iraq.(Neither the Germans, most Britons, Most Australians, Most of Europe, All of the Middle-East(tee hee), the Africans, and well, let's face it, most of the world. But how do the Italians always seem to escape notice? Hmmm

Thoughts, gentlemen?

GreenKnight121

11th Oct 2006, 09:24

You mean the Italians who DID send troops with us?

Wader2

11th Oct 2006, 11:17

As to retiring a flag....burning in a reverent and dignified manner is the approved method.

Interesting that it is burnt. I wonder if that is why protestors burn your flag in what is clearly intended as undignified?

In UK we lay our flags up. Sqn, Regimental, Service and other flags are placed usually in a church and many are very worn. They are usually where a unit was last in action or based and serve as a focal point for reunions or even solitary remembrance. There are of course many other places such as St Clement's Danes for the RAF, in museuma or in Catherderals. Threadbare where they have been in contact with the ground over many years, shot and holed where they have been in action.

One White Ensign was used by the German forces to honour dead sailors in Guernsey. It was then 'stolen' and hidden until after the war and finally laid to rest in St John's Church.

LowNSlow

11th Oct 2006, 11:47

Easiest flag in the world to make is that of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiryea or just plain Libya to the rest of the world. It's a simple green sheet, nice and cheap to bedeck the streets with when Mohammed Quadafi takes a stroll.

Crossbleed

13th Oct 2006, 14:09

There are Italian troops in Iraq ??

GreenKnight121

13th Oct 2006, 18:57

Remember this BBC headline from August 24, 2004?
"Italy says it has no intention of withdrawing its 3,000 troops from Iraq in the face of demands from kidnappers who have seized an Italian journalist."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3595618.stm

As of Sep. 21, 2006, Italy has about 1,600 troops in the country, mostly in Nasiriyah, and that force is expected to be withdrawn by year’s end.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14935006/

While they are withdrawing now, at least they have been there since near the beginning!

DC10RealMan

13th Oct 2006, 19:15

Melchett01

I am sure that they were no white flags at Verdun in 1916 where the French Army fought the German invader whose avowed aim was the "Bleed the French white". Millions of Frenchmen died in defending La France. I think that your comment was a cheap shot, even if it was meant as a joke.

Crossbleed

16th Oct 2006, 12:12

While they are withdrawing now, at least they have been there since near the beginning
What do you mean by at least?
By this logic one can say the Italians are quick to reverse themselves when the error of their ways becomes apparent, and the French are worse than the Italians for not getting involved in the Iraqi quagmire from the get-go??
Given the historical perspective of Indo-China, I would say there's more than a few similarities between the French and Yanks anyway. Both got chucked outta Vietnam. Oops, don't mention that one. :E

brickhistory

16th Oct 2006, 17:38

Given the historical perspective of Indo-China, I would say there's more than a few similarities between the French and Yanks anyway. Both got chucked outta Vietnam. Oops, don't mention that one. :E

Oh no, by all means keep it in our memories, lest we forget what doesn't work.
So far, we're roughly 10-1 (depending on what we decide counts as a conflict), with one current one undecided. And your side's stats?

Capt W E Johns

17th Oct 2006, 02:53

And your side's stats?
Do I see some cracks appearing in the Coalition of the Willing?
So far, we're roughly 10-1 (depending on what we decide counts as a conflict), with one current one undecided.
Well that depends on what we decide counts as a Mission Accomplished, doesn't it. Which side of the ledger did you put Somalia on?

Crossbleed

17th Oct 2006, 03:30

Oh no, by all means keep it in our memories, lest we forget what doesn't work.

Well, isn't that what any nation should do? In any case it appears very similar mistakes have and are being made in Iraq, so who remembers what is a little moot, but I digress.
My side? Well, you asked:
Boer, First, Second, Malayan, Korean, Vietnam, East Timor, Afghanistan, Iraq.
Most all of 'em from start to finish.
But that's the country I call home, It's not really where I'm FROM. Same as you good self I'd suggest, Bricky. I could seriously muddy your waters by telling you of an ancestral line that as shown a propensity for conquest that would make Dubya weep with desire, but I digress further.
So we've come to this then have we, stats? My team / your team. IMHO you trivialise the whole discussion when you want statistics like that. How do you stack up against the British Empire Hmm? Or the Ottoman Turks, Alexander the Great, hell, while we're at it, the Romans?? Hell, I nearly forgot Napoleon.
The ability to prevail in most conflicts largely due to crushing weight of numbers and weaponry, in MODERN history, hardly equates to proof of moral right, don't you think?
And let's not forget who the "willing" are. U.K.- well, Blair's weak and they can hardly afford to miss this one if they still want to power-share the running of the world now can they? Aussies?- another downpayment on the busted ANZUS treaty, just in case Indonesia look our way. The Europeans that did go? Most of 'em needed the money for their coming- out ball when they appeared from behind the Iron Curtain and needed a new dress to wear at the NATO piss-up.

One current = Iraq, one undecided = Which??:confused:

eagle 86

17th Oct 2006, 03:56

Most of this trans Atlantic tit-for-tat is utter childish crap. The truth is that ALL Western nations have begun an inglorious slide towards oblivion. No Western country has the will to win anywhere, anymore. Most of you people are very lucky that you are not going to be around at the end of this century as your countries are going to be run in a far different way than they are now. Spare some thought for your grandchildren and the life you are condemming them to.
GAGS
E86

Crossbleed

17th Oct 2006, 04:05

Don't you mean trans-Pacific??:= :ok: :E

Capt W E Johns

17th Oct 2006, 07:33

Eagle 86, save your doomsday predictions for the street corners and the naive. The fact that George W and a select few lackies (Australia first among them) are bumbling around in the middle east is not indicative of some sort of imminent decline of Western civilization.

"Won't someone think of the little children?" Please.

eagle 86

17th Oct 2006, 07:37

Biggles,
I'd probably count you among the naive!
GAGS
e86

Crossbleed

17th Oct 2006, 08:42

Aaaah, well. This one's run it's course then. Just starting to get hot'n'heavy too.
Back to the bar.:}

brickhistory

17th Oct 2006, 11:46

Jeez, folks, lighten up. My tongue-in-cheek "stats" post was meant to be exactly that.

Crossbleed

17th Oct 2006, 12:14

Always_broken_in_wilts

17th Oct 2006, 14:14

Crossbleed,

Doubt there was much tongue in the cheek actually as in my experiance on these forums there are one or two "good ol boy's" who take real umbrage when you take a swipe the US:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Roadster280

17th Oct 2006, 22:56

ABIW,

I'm not sure I would cast aspersions on the good ol' boys. For better or for worse, I'm a Brit here in the US. In the UK, I've noticed a distinct loss of "national identity". In days gone by, those who sought to cast aspersions on the UK got a swift "orf with their heads". Ruthlessly.

As time rolled on, perhaps it wasn't entirely appropriate to rape foreign lands, and the Commonwealth came about. We matured. Our offspring, the United States, is still maturing as a nation. What defiant young adult hasn't set out to "show the world"? A couple of hundred years is a mere augenblick.

In the US, I've noticed a distinct solidarity of the nation. United behind the flag. Along the way, I can't help feeling the UK lost its way a bit. Perhaps that is what happens in old age. But for now, the US is a virile youngster, and making its mark.

Anyhoo (to use an Americanism), this thread started out about the US Flag being worn ass backwards. In summary, if the "traditional view" US flag is worn on the right arm, it is ass backwards.

brickhistory

18th Oct 2006, 03:59

Damn, I hate it when I don't spot the tongue-in-cheek!:O
You'll have to forgive us Brickmeister, old boy.
Ya public profile looks like a napalm 'em all sorta guy.:eek:
Or do you prefer to just watch?
Coat / Door

How could you get "napalm 'em all" from my profile? As a controller ('scuse me, "Air Battle Manager ((I kid you not!))), I much prefer watching at one g, preferably with a cup of coffee. Now nuke 'em all, that's a different story!!!

And for the Capt re Somalia - it was in support of a humanitarian mission. I certainly would not call that a war. Nevertheless, nearly two dozen good men died for no real reason.