Package Deals

[jongriff]

Hi All

This is my first thread .... ever please be kind

I am a 20 hours PPL student. I have paid upfront for my PPL course but due to NEVER seeming to get in the air (twice this year!) I am looking to do it in Spain. However my school, who shall of course remain nameless, won't give me back what I haven't used.
So, is this right?
If it is right what can I do.
When I have asked if someone maybe interested in buying me out, calls, emails are not returned/ignored

let me know your thoughts guys

Laterz
J:ugh: :confused:

[no sponsor]

Silly boy. Difficult to know, unless you give some more facts.

What is the reason you have only gotten into the air twice in 8 months?
Did you sign a contract?
How did you pay the establishment - Credit/Debit card or cash.
Who have you spoken to in person at the school - owner/CFI? How have those conversations been, and what is the reason they are giving for not handing it back?

There are just too many crooks in this game to be paying up-front.

[Lister Noble]

jongriff,
What rotten luck,maybe they shouldn't remain NAMELESS.
Perhaps try and get some legal advice,even CAB could help with basic info?
Lister
Sorry CAB=citizens advice bureau

[maggioneato]

Someone I know who paid up front then found he had to move house before the completion of his PPL didn't get a refund as the price agreed and paid was a contract to complete in X amount of hours, and as he was breaking the agreed contract it was his loss. Never pay up front for many reasons, pay as you fly.
I think I can guess where you have been flying from your location, possibly the same place as my friend.

[helicopter-redeye]

If you would care to post the details of the contract, we will be happy to review and advise accordingly.

[tangovictor]

I paid up front, as it appears most schools offer a better deal, that way,
and I'm more than happy with my training, the occassional high wind or very rare tech problems, are annoying, however would happen anywhere, UK / US or Spain, I'd have a friendly chat with your school's owner I'm sure, he could do without the bad press, that could be generated, from not giving you a high% refund

[unstable_aloft]

Is there no mechanism for reporting or complaining about flying schools to the CAA? We see stuff like this time and time again on here.

If you have paid up front for them to deliver training, and they subsequently do not deliver that training, then if anybody has broken a contract it is them and they should refund.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to keep a diary. If you turn up to go flying and the lesson is cancelled, don't just take it, ask them why and write it in the diary? If they are palming you off with excuses of things like high wind, check the wind yourself, see if other light aircraft from other schools are off flying, again write down your findings in the diary. If they're as bad as you say, a pattern will soon build up, and you will have something to hit them with and show to the CAA or whoever to back you up.

I really hope it turns out ok for you,
Unstable_aloft

[jongriff]

Cheers for your words Guys

Weather, technical, instructor availability have been main reasons for not calling ATC with that wonderful "ready for departure" phrase I miss so much.

The airfield is not very local to me so it may not be as obvious as to where I am studying.
There was not " contract" signed but I do have the receipt and it was paid by cheque, which was quickly cashed.

I hold little hope of getting anything back which obviously doesn't bode well with the "breadknife" for requests to conplete abroad.

Are there many crooks in this game or am I very very nieve!

[robin]

Not so much 'crooks', as schools very close to the edge of financial viability.

Now the weather is about to close in for the winter, we'll see those that haven't built up enough slack finding themselves in big trouble.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Unfortunately you've found out first hand why you must never, ever pay upfront unless it's by credit card and even then you must be wary.

The CAA has no mandate to look into a schools funding or financial dealings.

Seriously though, let some of us on here know who and we may be able to help out.
If you don't want to post who on a thread, then send a PM.

You may have to accept some penalty, but this should be offset by the schools inability to provide you with what you have paid for.

Robin, you may be surprised to know that schools books often look better during winter months, as the revenue from trial lessons comes in , especially in the run up to Christmas. The summer is often spent flying these and has a cost, but the money is long gone to pay for it!

The sooner the sharks and incompetents are run out of GA, the better for us all.

[IO540]

The sooner the sharks and incompetents are run out of GA, the better for us all.

Very true but I doubt it's going to happen any time soon.

I can think of just two ways to make it happen:

A properly managed and funded school sets up at the same location, with new modern planes etc and, after a few years, the other one(s) go bust. The problem with this is that the "others" will always undercut the new one, because one can run old planes a long way into the ground before they can't be used anymore.

The airfield takes an active interest in the management of flying schools based there, allowing no more than one to set up, and vetting their finances (and whether the Directors have a "record" at the Companies House, CCJs, etc) beforehand. Rather than just gratefully accepting the rent from anybody, as most airfields seem to do.

[Kaptain Kremen]

Really sad to hear of this again. It's worth getting something in writing with regards refunds - that way you can be happy to pay up front and feel confident that you have some comeback in the event of a refund requirement. Not all schools are crooks though, at my school we offer refund written into the contract, though any discount you attracted by an up front payment will be deducted as you didn't fly off the requisite hours that attracted the discount in the first place. Fair all round.
I think that any self respecting school would rather refund fairly than risk a bad reputation. Maybe name and shame is best, or at least the threat of it would suffice.

[potkettleblack]

I wouldn't give up that easily just yet. Turn up in person and eye ball the owner and try and be as reasonable as possible. If that fails here are some things you might like to raise:-

- does he want the bad press from being named and shamed on pprune?

- how will he feel about you bringing a £50 old banger spray painted with "dont be rippped off by xyz" parked outside his club?

- ask him how he feels about a VAT audit followed by an income tax audit courtesy of HMRC

- mention that you are deeply concerned about the financial viability of his operation given that he is withholding your money and that you intend to write to your local mp, the chair of the aviation sub committee (or whatever it is called) and of course the CAA. Having contracted to the govt for a bit I can tell you there is nothing that gets a civil servant moving than having an MP chasing you. You will be surprised just how friendly some of these MPs are and how they love helping out. Afterall that is one of the things that you elect them for.

- ask him how disrupted his business would be if 50 ppruners all called up to book trial lessons over the next couple of months and then did a no show.

- also have a friendly word about the state of his aircraft and how you might have a mate of a mate who might write to the CAA concerning the safety and getting an audit undertaken of his maintenance records

- tell him you will go to your local paper and spill the dirt - they love these sorts of stories

- and if all else fails take em to small claims and get a written order (assuming you win). Then apply to the courts and get a charge put on his prize assets (presumably the aircraft) so that he will have to come grovelling to you in the future to get it released. By which time you might end up having to charge him some interest etc:)

Hopefully he will see reason with all of the above plus anything else you can think of and give you some of your hard earned back. Good luck.

[Newforest]

Solicitor, small claims court, newspaper publicity... where is our Flying lawyer when we need him?

[BRL]

Hmm, go easy here guys. I don't want pprune to be used to hound out individual clubs or owners etc. There are other ways of sorting things like this out, sensible ways too such as the credit card company and not paying up front in the first place.

You could name the school if you want, I have no problem with that, if it is true of course, but I don't want the owner of the school on the phone to me or threatening legal action (again) because of what has been written here, blaming us for the no show of the 50 trial lessons that never turned up and so on and so on..........

I am not trying to protect the school by the way, I just hate the idea of a school not being able to give someone back his hard earned cash and don't want the additional aggro that comes this way in situations like this.

[BroomstickPilot]

Jongriff,

No one has mentioned the obvious. Go to the local county Trading Standards Dept and complain to them. At the least, they will advise you how best to proceed and it is possible that they just might take your case up and deal directly with the perpetrators.

Good luck.

Broomstick.

[DFC]

Weather, technical, instructor availability have been main reasons for not calling ATC with that wonderful "ready for departure" phrase I miss so much.

The airfield is not very local to me so it may not be as obvious as to where I am studying.

How many bookings did you make that you were available, the weather was suitable but technical failures or lack of an instructor caused the lesson to be cancelled?

Regards,

DFC

[jongriff]

Hi Guys

Having been a newbie to threads and forums I am pleased to see I have found a site that truly allows me to mix with likeminded people.

I am gonna see if I can arrange a meeting with the owner of the club this weekend to see what he prepares to do.

I will let him know I have discussed this matter with my "peers" (If I can call you all that) and they agree this is an out of order method of working.

Thanks for your help and I'll keep you posted.

[BRL]

Good luck JG.
I bet you he turns up in a brand new top-spec Mercedes........:ugh: :ugh:

[dublinpilot]

Johngriff,

A lot of people here are jumping to your defence. This may be justified, or it may not be. You haven't provided enough information to make a reasonable opinion.

We are all assuming that the school is totally to blame, but is this the case?

The school can't be blamed for weather cancelations, they are simply a fact of life assuming they are genuine weather cancelations. Even more so over a winter period.

Technical problems with aircraft do happen. Your lessons should not be frequently be cancelled due to weather problems, but one or two in a year might not be unreasonable.

Again the same with instructor availability. Instructors do get sick, or need a day off. One or two lessons cancelled due to this might not be unreasonable.

The real question is, as DFC asked, how many lessons did you book, (or attempt to book with reasonable notice). Deciding on a Wed that you'd like to book a lesson for that Saturday is not likely to be very successful with most schools. How many of these lessons were cancelled by the school?

If you simply booked a lesson for 4 weeks time, then when that came around the weather was bad, and you booked another one for 4 weeks time, then I could well see the possibility of you getting very little airbourne time.

I'm not saying that this is the case in your case, but simply saying that you haven't provided enough information to justify the support that you have been getting on this thread. A contract is a two way thing.....you both have responsibilities and obligations. A little more information my make it easier to see if you have met your own obligations

dp

[jongriff]

Dublin pilot

I have not entered all dates in my diary as to when I was up but to give you an idea,

I was up for 1hour in January (on my solo check ride then the door broke while I was checking "hatches and harnesses secure" and then up in May.

I have booked around 15 different lessons so have had about 13 cancellations all due to weather, double booked, plane maintenance or instructor off.

All aircraft from the club are leased so he has virtually no fixed assets ..... am i flogging a dead horse?:confused:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Weather cancellations are something you just have to put up with. It's a pain for all concerned.

Cancelling lessons is as big a problem for a club/school as it is for a student, unless they've paid upfront of course, but even then, it's better to get people flying than have them waiting on the ground.

If an instructor was off, then unless it's an unexpected thing (e.g. Myself next week. I have a number of funerals to go to and so have had to cancel all my flying next week, it's not easy to get cover at the last moment.) then a booking shouldn't be taken unless someone is available to fly with you.

A/C do also break and sometimes it is just bad luck. Have a chat with the school and tell them of your concerns. If they don't bend over backwards or it continues like this, then demand your money back. You've paid for a service which you haven't recieved.

[potkettleblack]

I wouldn't be to bothered about the aircraft ownership just yet, try the other suggestions first. It is quite usual for the FTO's to have the aircraft in a separate company and a lease between them and the training company. Been many a school that has gone down the pan over the years only to miraculously arise like a phoenix from the ashes with the same airframes.

[IO540]

It should be a little harder these days (to do a midnight flight) than say 20 years ago.

These days, you can get disqualified from being a company director. This means you get your brother / wife / mate to front the "next company" :)

However, and this is a nice one which very few know about, a Director can be personally liable for debts incurred by a limited company in the few months preceeding it's failure. The idea is that if you can see trouble looming, then you should not enter into contracts etc for expenditure. I have seen this enforced. It's not cheap to do but it's damn effective in getting a "private settlement".

However, the trick in sinking a business and getting away with it is the same as it has always been: don't owe money to Customs or Revenue, and don't owe enough to any single party to make them angry enough to go after you. Stick to those simple rules and you can rip off as many people as you want, as many times as you want, and you will always get away with it.

[DFC]

Dublin pilot

I have not entered all dates in my diary as to when I was up but to give you an idea,

I was up for 1hour in January (on my solo check ride then the door broke while I was checking "hatches and harnesses secure" and then up in May.

I have booked around 15 different lessons so have had about 13 cancellations all due to weather, double booked, plane maintenance or instructor off.

All aircraft from the club are leased so he has virtually no fixed assets ..... am i flogging a dead horse?:confused:

Regardless of the fact that you may be right, it is very unlikely that you will suceed in obtaining any money back even if you go to court.

You are not even sure yourself about when you booked and the exact reasons why you did not fly each time. Very few people make regular bookings such as this and make no record. Many clubs even provide a diary for the purpose.

Based on what you say, you have made very few bookings for 8.5 months of possible flying. Break that down into days and hours and you booked a very small percentage of the training time available to you.

Unless you can show something like they told you the aircraft was U/S but it was used to fly with another student or private pilot in the time you had booked. Or you were booked with an employee of theirs and they used that employee to do other tasks while telling you that they were not available.

Does this club employ your instructor or is the instructor self employed?

Thus, if you show that you were not receiving good service from the instructor, you may have to claim from the instructor.

If you show that the aircraft gave poor service, you (along with the club owner) may chace up the owners and/ or maintenance company.

If you show that the weather let you down then........

In summary, unless you have very good evidence that this business let you down by design or through negligence you have no chance of getting your money back...........unless.....................the business simply wants to get rid of a customer who has unrealistic expectations.

As has been said before, you have a lot of responsibility for ensuring that the posibility existed for the flying to have taken place. Making infrequent bookings does not help that to happen and probably guarantees an over-run in the hours required to complete the training to the minimum standard.

Don't forget that the Head of Training at this location will be in contact with the Head of Training at the next location you choose. Be sure of your position before making any serious decisions.

Regards,

DFC

[jongriff]

Thanks for all your advice

Happy flying

J:D