questions from Ms Naive

[elena]

Hi Gentlemen,
This is my first post on pprune and am still very young in this industry as my total time is about 10hrs on an ultra light I helped to build, and 40 minutes on an R22.
So here we go: I am hooked on helicopters, I know it's going to be hard, expensive, sometimes discouraging, very competitive but I am decided on starting training next year in the US.
Are there any of you who did their training, or heard about Versatile Aviation in Oklahoma? They are cheap, nice talking on the phone and fly Bell47.
I tried to get some infos on some French forums but with very little success. I did not want either to put those questions on the wannabees section, because you guys fly rotors so you may know better.
Any help/advice/remark would be very appreciated.

[Whirlygig]

Would this be for a private licence or commercial licence? The answers will differ depending!

Cheers

Whirls

[HillerBee]

For flight training in the US you will need an M-1 Visa, the school has to be approved to be able to issue you a form I-94. I can't find anything on their website about VISAS.

There are a lot of issues to take in to account when you take the step to go over to the US. There are however several threads on this forum already.

Hillerbee

[elena]

Thanks guys for your answers.
Yes that would be for a CPL, starting with a fixed-wing PPL at the same place and followed by a CFI if it goes well . They are M1 approved and I talked to them on the phone like I did with HAI, Hillsboro, and others.
I decided to go there because it was cheap (as well as living in OK), because they provide fixed wing training as well and on general feeling following those calls.
Besides that, I reckon I don't know much more.

[Whirlygig]

It's now down to what type of licence you require and where in the world you wish to work.

I don't believe this school is approved for JAA helicopter CPL, therefore it would be an FAA licence.

If you wish to work in Europe, then you would be probably be better off with a JAA licence.

Cheers

Whirls

[HillerBee]

As far as I know France isn't JAA (helicopters) yet. Maybe there's an easy conversion there?

[moosp]

Elena, welcome to the forum. Many of us here are also "hooked" on helicopters, and many can say that they still enjoy going to work every morning, especially once they get past the office building and into the machine.

My input to you would be to take care if any school asks for a lot of money as a deposit to start. I tried several schools in America, and I am very glad that I did not tie myself to one by giving them a deposit of thousands of dollars. It is only by being there, seeing the organisation, meeting the instructors and other staff that you will feel if it is right for you.

I do not know the school that you mention, but if you arrive at school xyz and discover that you are not happy there, it is important for you to be able to move on to another one.

The Bell 47 that your proposed school uses is one of the older design machines, and people who are trained on it have a good understanding of the basics of natural control. I may be shot down by others here but I think it is a very good training machine. If you continue with your training to the CPL level, then you will need to get experience on other machines like the Robinson R22 and R44 which would make you more employable.

Remember that you will need to get your TSA security clearance to learn in the USA. I'm not sure how long it takes these days but a few months ago it was taking around three months to come through. There are full details on another thread, but I cannot find it right now. (Help me here guys?)

Don't go for the cheapest school, like most things you get what you pay for. A few thousand dollars more now may make a difference in future by the quality of your training and the good name of the school on your c.v.

Once again welcome

[HillerBee]

I read on the Website they're charging $180.00 per hour wet for a Bell47!!?? That's extremely cheap. Elena did you verify the rates? What's the instructors rate.

The prices seem very low indeed. What bothers me is a website without any pictures. I would not sign or pay anything before visiting the school first.

[elena]

To "the controller"
No, I don't think "this IS funny".
You should read my post better. My question may be naive but was not "how do I become a helicopter pilot", I've done my homework before posting here, thanks to internet, pprune, phone calls, visiting schools aorund Paris.
I was asking advice about a flight school in particular having already picked up lots of infos here, proof is I know this flight school better than you.
I thank everyone else about their sound advice. Visa, TSA, it's all figured out.
Hillerbee: the rates on the web site are wrong. It's 245$/hr dual, ground instruction is 35$. When I called, they reckoned not having updated their site for quite some time.
And France has implemeted the JAA since this year, no more DGAC rules.
Thanks again, it's more replies in 2 hours than 2 months on French heli web sites.

[Whirlygig]

now this IS funny. a female wannabee posts a "how do i become a helicopter pilot" type question and no-one berates her and tells her to go read the previous posts/FAQs. i wonder why?!!
Because she asked a specific question about a particular school which, as far as I know, has not been mentioned on these pages recently, that's why! :ugh:

Elena, good for you :ok: You do have to stick up for yourself sometimes here ;)

I think there are only two JAA approved helicopter schools in the US and they are HAI and Hillsboro (?). You might have to look at the conversion costs; it MAY be cost effective but I have my doubts!

Cheers

Whirls



Cheers

Whirls

[yellowbird135]

now this IS funny. a female wannabee posts a "how do i become a helicopter pilot" type question and no-one berates her and tells her to go read the previous posts/FAQs. i wonder why?!!

Why???........seems only natural to me...(High levels of testosteron).:)

Elena, go girl!!

YB

[170']

Now that´s unusual!...A cocky French Pilot (to be) :eek:

Controller...I´m sure a few others had the same thought...Perhaps worded slightly differently :D

Elena..The slight insult, wasn´t directed at you. but referenced a recent post...whatever you decide...Merde A La Puissance Treize!

!70'

[Bravo73]

now this IS funny. a female wannabee posts a "how do i become a helicopter pilot" type question and no-one berates her and tells her to go read the previous posts/FAQs. i wonder why?!!

Probably because I was out working 'til now... :ouch: :\ :ouch:


But previous posts/FAQS is still probably a good place to start anyway...:oh:

[Whirlygig]

Why???........seems only natural to me...(High levels of testosteron).


:confused:

Cheers

Whirls

[HillerBee]

Since it was a quite interesting question, I put my 2c in. The forum is for discussions and not to tell anyone off.

Elena
The Bell 47 is a great machine to fly and definitely a good platform to be taught on.

[elena]

Whirlygig, Moosp, Hillerbee thanks for your help, it's great from my position to feel being taken seriously by experienced people.
I don't even tell my friends, collegues even family about my ambition anymore, I've been laughed at too often, either by my students friends when studying Economics at university or by my fellow coworkers working as a cashier in a drugstore. It does not even bother me, they don't know...
As for the JAA, I don't even think of it, it is financially out of reach, so my plan is to stay for a year in the states to get from PPLfixed wing to CFI heli, then if possible and me being good enough, to work as an instructor at the same school for another 12 months. JAA conversion are very distant in the future, I know about the regulations and cost involved that's all I can say.
Next step will be 5 hrs in an aeroclub in a small airplane thanks of a grant, and continue working full time and saving for going to the US early 07.

[Whirlybird]

In my experience in this industry, you get what you pay for. They are cheap, are they? Ask yourself why? And be very careful. I've never heard of them, and personally I wouldn't learn to fly anywhere without at least one personal recommendation - a gut feeling on the phone is not enough.

Good luck.

[Lord Mount]

Elena,
Welcome to the forum.
I have no experience with Versatile Aviation but I recently learned to fly helicopters in the USA and thoroughly enjoyed the experience,
I trained on the Bell 47 and I can confirm that it is a wonderful aircraft to fly,
I did my training at Dutch Country Helicopters in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and can attest to the excellent instruction, the immaculate maintainance of the machines and the friendship extended by everyone there.
I have no reason to believe Versatile will be any different.

As we say in Britain.......Crack on....Fill yer boots.....and knock yourself out girl. :ok:


Lord Mount

[R1Tamer]

elena,

Have a good root around on the internet - find a cheap flight to the US. Book a rental car and ideally take a friend. Drive to all the schools on your shortlist and look first hand at the schools you're planning to throw a very very considerable wedge of money at. It may take you a couple of weeks to do but believe me it will be the best value, most sensible and most rewarding road trip you will ever make if you're seriously planning to go down this helicopter route.

R1tamer

PS Take no notice of the controller he's a sorry embittered southerner
PPS thecontroller - hows life down in the smoke - studying hard or too much ppruning

[HillerBee]

You don't just drive to a number of flight schools in the US. Even in Florida alone it would take you weeks. Let alone go visit one in Oklahoma.

But as I suggested before, paying them a visit might be the wisest.

Hillerbee

[R1Tamer]

Hillerbee,

It may be the case that you don't - but I can assure you many do - self included. Furthermore it's probably only a preliminary to what will be required later when Elena finishes her training and is touting her skills looking for a job.

R1Tamer

[HillerBee]

That's just why I'm telling her, out of own experience.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Welcome to the forum Elena!!

You won't regret selling your second last t-shirt in order to become a helicopter pilot, it will mean you will not have to work for a living ever again. It's just magically and faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaantastic soaring above ground.

The only thing I can add is once you have your R22/R44 rating to go and take the factory course in Torrance now that is the best value for money you will get in a long time. THose 3.5 days and 1.5hours which cost you something like $400 is just educational. They also have a specail rate deal with the hotel across from them whose name escapes me (anyone remember?).

I wish you the very best of luck!!:ok:

[mikelimapapa]

Elena,

I personally don't know anybody that trained there, but my best mate applied for a job at Versitale. They told him over the phone that not only did he have the job, but they would pay him to get experience in the B47 and after a couple months he would be able to get his fixed wing ratings for free too. Of course he jumped at the chance, packed up all his stuff and was ready to leave for OK; then they called him back and said they weren't ready for him yet. So he hung around for a couple days, kept on trying to contact them and they kept blowing him off. After two weeks, he gave up and started looking for a job elsewhere.:ugh:

If this is any indication how they treat their students, I would be very, very careful!:suspect: Good luck!

Mike

[jetflite]

Elena - Do you happen to (originally) be from Germany by any chance ? (Black forrest near Salem)

JF

[Whirlybird]

They told him over the phone that not only did he have the job, but they would pay him to get experience in the B47 and after a couple months he would be able to get his fixed wing ratings for free too.

Yeah, right. I may be old and cynical, but I'd have been instantly suspicious. Like, why? :confused: You don't get nothing for free in this industry. What were they after? And if it was that hard for them to get instructors, again, why?

Elena, of course they're friendly and nice on the phone - they want your money! If they're desperate, they cut prices....but may also cut corners. I'm not saying they do, I'm saying check them out carefully....as you are doing. But a few thousand saved now could cost you way, way more in the future. :( You need first rate instruction from the start, especially if you're going commercial. And it's worth paying for.

[elena]

Amazing!!! all those answers and recommandations!!!
Thanks to all and to pprune, I read all your posts with lots of attention and sorry JetFlite I am not from Germany, was just born and raised in France, with my mind now in Oklahoma.
MikeLimaPapa, I understand your suspicions based on your friend's experience but that's HIS side of the story, maybe there's more than that, I just wrote MAYBE, don't get me wrong.
I haven't chosen Versatile ONLY based on price and gut feeling.
A French pilot student living in the Dallas area flew there for his cross country time, visited the school and told me about it: of course the visit was only for an hour, but the students he met looked happy, 2 helis were flying, one on the ground for maintenance, the owner was an old guy in his 70s taking the time to talk to him etc...apparently a normal place with normal people.
I won't go to the US for a trip and to visit others . I know it's a sound advice and I thank you for that but I rather save the money for my training. There's always a risk involved and I think I reduced it somehow. If it's not working, then I will move to a big recognized school as HAI.
Again, thanks to all of you, you were a great help.

[Speedbird48]

Hi Elena,

Great to hear of someone with ambition and not wanting it given to them on a plate. Go for it, girl, you will go far. Welcome to the colony even if the TSA bunch are making it a bit difficult at the moment.

I would like to reiterate the comments regarding you get what you pay for. Please be careful and do not pay up front for anything.

I would also like to concur with the comments regarding Dutch Country and their Bell 47 at Lancaster, PA. Not too far from where I sit and they do a great job with excellent equipment in great shape.

There is another operator with a Bell 47 at Winchester, VA. Shenandoah Valley Helicopters. They also have high standards and an immaculate machine.

Lancaster, PA. would have cheaper living as Winchester is in the commuter belt for Washington, DC.

If you want to go as far as Titusville, FL there is an outfit there that does a tremendous amount of helicopter training but on Robinsons and Schwietzers.
The FAA use them for initial training of inspectors.

As I work on the dark side it is the good ones that show up at the top.

Good luck.

Brian.

[aurora1827]

Hi Elena!
I recognise not wanting to talk to friends/family as the reactions you get (possibly because you are a woman) are usually not that great. You should have seen the look of horror on my mother's face when I told her....:eek:

I'm going over to the US in October and the TSA stuff wasn't too tricky to get through, took about a week, although I'm Swedish and it might be different. You have an advantage in that since you're young you probably don't have a gazillion addresses, previous names/marriages like some of us...

Picking a school is always difficult, I think sound advice I've gotten is make sure you can leave if you don't like it, there are many others.

Bon chance!

[Helicopspeeder]

:ok: Elena,
Nice to see your obvious passion for our industry and the life of a heli-pilot. I can't comment on your particular choice of flight school but you have already got a lot of great advice there. I trained on the B-47 and agree that it is a great machine to for training. I consequently went on to log over 1000 hrs on B-47 variants and Kh-4s and still love them. They are rapidly being superseded here in Australia at least by the faster R-44 and others. I would suggest that maybe you split your training time between the B-47 and R-22 or H300. This seems to be a pretty good time to be seeking helicopter work, demand here is greater than I have ever seen it.
Don't let your family or anyone else talk you out of your dream. I have the pleasure of working with a lady pilot and she is without doubt one of the smoothest, most confident and professional pilots I have ever met and I am proud to fly with her. It is always a pleasure to see the surprise on various faces when she gets out of her machine!
Best of luck wherever you choose to train and fly.
Lovin' every minute of it.
Helicopspeeder

[Steve76]

This one fact to consider Elena:
NOBODY cares where you do your training and it matters little in the grand scheme. It will not get you a job because you trained with instructor 'A' or instructor 'B'. It might make you a known quantity if 'A' knows some people with a job but that is pretty unlikely.
You should be surfing for training organisations that offer you a chance to fly post training - and NOT as an instructor. Look for places where flight training is part of their income and not the entire GDP. These places will not only teach you how to fly with a view to becoming a working pilot but often have machines to be ferried and ground jobs for post training.
Forget about "my friends went here and they are really nice and always have hot coffee and donuts...." impressions and start looking for a realistic environment, 'cause believe me: everyone is friendly when you are waving 50,000 dollars around (and female...) :)

[Steve76]

Hey another thought: if you can get into a syndicate where you buy a share in a robbie _ GO FOR IT!
I wish I had done this. It sounds daunting but its not and at the end of it all you sell your part to the next student and walk away with a cheap licence and some money in your pocket to survive the next 2-3 turmultuous years.

[elena]

Thanks Helicopspeeder and Steve76
Yes, I talked to a couple of places where flight instruction was only part of their business and at least they were very honest with me: yes there was a chance after my CPL "to do something" with them, but it was a very remote chance, the status of my student visa being only 1 part of the problem, the other being I am not the only one knocking in the door, insurance, type time were also cited.
Yes, Steve 76, you're right, they have hot coffee and sometimes donuts on sunday, so I may stick to them.;)
Seriously, I thought about buying a share as you mentioned and find an instructor, but again to have a visa and go through TSA, it makes the option impossible to train on my own, I have to stick to a 141 program.
Since I helped in the building of an ultra light, I also thought about finding a partner to build a CH7 Kompress, but then my training would be much delayed and not within the FCL2 etc...
So I guess, I will stick with Versatile and HAI as a back up.
Today was a perfect day: 3kts wind, CAVOK, 80s°F, and my first solo flight:) , yes in a fixed wing ultralight, which has nothing to do in this forum, but I could not help telling it.

[BGM]

:ok: This seems to be a pretty good time to be seeking helicopter work, demand here is greater than I have ever seen it.
Don't let your family or anyone else talk you out of your dream.
Helicopspeeder

Based on what you expressed above, do you think it would be possible that a forty year old with approx 100hrs fixed wing (ppl), follow his lifelong desire in Aus and obtain a cpl (h) and hopefully some work or do you think it's just too late.

Cheers,
BGM

[BaronG]

As for the JAA, I don't even think of it, it is financially out of reach, so my plan is to stay for a year in the states to get from PPLfixed wing to CFI heli, then if possible and me being good enough, to work as an instructor at the same school for another 12 months.

The magic words - "Work as an instructor". For this an M-1 visa will not work and unless you have other ways of working in the US (e.g. relatives). If not, then you'll need to get a J-1 Visa.

That is something you must investigate now since once you've done some training you may find that you will no longer be eligible for the J-1 and you'll have an FAA with minimum hours but no way of working with it in the USA.

Bon Chance!

BG.

[elena]

Hi BaronG
Thanks for the advice, but...
Yes, YES! you can work under the M1 visa.
It's called the OPT (Optional Practical Training if I remember well) and is based on the time it takes you to go through training.
ie, you trained for 12 months, you can work 3, and only in your field of study, it can be renewed under some conditions.
This is one option, another would be to enroll in a cheap college under F1, do some flight training on the side and work part time as an instructor.
There are other ways, not all of them straightforwards...

[HillerBee]

If you enroll in a study on a F-1, you can only do 'On-Campus' work, and are not allowed do study anything else than the study for which you hold your visa. Every time there are people thinking they found an easier way, but trust me there are no shortcuts. Don't underestimate the risks. I know somebody who got caught, he was arrested, thrown in jail for a few days and then put on a plane, without being able to get his personal belongings or anything. Just deported and don't come back the first 10 years.

Bottomline is: you need a J-1 to be able to build up enough experience.

[rudestuff]

Elena,
If you're not a legal resident of the US, then you need a J1 to work as a flight instructor - which means the only choice you have to make is HAI or Hillsboro. (they're the only ones that can issue J1 as far as I know)

Sign up for the Private course and enter the country on an M1 visa.
Once your 6 months is up, apply for change of status to J1 (wave money under thier noses...) This will give you another 24 months (plus processing time) Now you can concentrate on getting trained and getting a job.

I agree with steve76: The most important thing is to try to get hired at a school which also does commercial work, flies bigger ships etc. Obviously as a new CFI, you'll go and work for the first person that hires you, but don't stop looking. I was hired as a CFI, but after a while a commercial position came up - as I worked for them already, they hired me. If you go to a company which just does flight training, the step to commercial flying is much harder.
Its a long road, but fun.

Good luck!

[SASless]

The Whirly-Girls also awarded its annual Livingston Award to “Mama Bird” Evelyn Bryan Johnson, Whirly-Girl No. 20. Johnson, who served as manager of the Morristown, Tenn., airport for 50 years and on the Tennessee Aeronautics Commission longer than any other member, has logged more than 57,000 hours instructing students. She received her helicopter rating in 1957, became only the fourth woman in the world to earn her helicopter instructor rating (in 1958) and later received the Carnegie Medal for Heroism when she rescued the pilot of a helicopter that crashed into a power line. At the age of 95, Johnson still flies and has been recognized by the Guinness Book of World Records as the highest time female pilot in history. –K.R.

Perhaps young Elena, you might consider contacting the Whirly Girls and seek advice from some very involved people. Who knows, perhaps one day we might read of your becoming one of them.:)

[HillerBee]

Torquestripe

Simply not true. What I said about the F-1 is the rule, only legal way around is when you unexpectedly run out of money, some kind of unforseen event. Then you can apply for a permit to work, this is very, very hard and since you're out of money you'll have no money for a lawyer either.

The H-3 does not allow you to work. It's only for gaining experience in a field which is not available in your home country. For example AG training. It's certainly not for paid flight instruction.

I'm not going to discuss this any further there are plenty of sites where you can learn all the in's and out's on American visas.

[LUXSTAR]

HI,I recently went on the best aviation .com, and found out that few schools are up for sale..worldwide .always...thats means they are running on empty,deposits upfront payments.....avoid them...try this northeast helicopters in ct.well balanced with girls and boys....lady owner spoke to her seems nice place...you can also go to NYC when you have free time and money only few hours on the train....good luck....lux

[HillerBee]

Luxstar

Why don't you give a list of the flight schools for sale, to make it a bit easier.

[LUXSTAR]

soory about that hillerbee....this is the site....have schools for sale....quite a few famous schools always up for sale.....cheers...lux

[HillerBee]

soory about that hillerbee....this is the site....have schools for sale....quite a few famous schools always up for sale.....cheers...lux

For Sale - Aircraft Buyer.com - Aircraft Direct.com - Aircraft Marketing - Aircraft Valuation - Air-Finance German - Aero Ads Helicopter - Alouette 3 Helicopters - American Helicopters - ARC Helicopter Services Great Britain - Audi Helicopteros Brazil - Austin Jet - AV Buyer - Avia Stock.com - Aviation Marketing International - Base 4 Aviation - Bell Net Exchange - Botco - Bower Helicopter - Business Aircraft Leasing - Cannon Aviation - Century Acquisitions - Controller.com - Deep Blue Switzerland - Dennis Kenyon Great Britain - East West Helicopter - Edwards Associates - Eckhart Helicopter Sales - Eastern Atlantic Helicopters Great Britain - Flyboy Trader - Harrods Aviation Sikorsky Great Britain - HAS Co - Hazelton International Australia - Heli Air Robinsons Great Britain - Helicopter Adventures - Helicopter Buyer.com - Helicopter Exchange - Helicopterlistings.com - Helicopter Trader Great Britain - Heli-Sales.com - InterHeli - Kansas Copters and Schreib-Air - Lloyd Helicopters - Loudoun Aviation - Mansfield Heliflight - McAlpine Helicopters Eurocopter Great Britain - Mike Green and Associates - Monolitavia - Next Aircraft - Noevir Aviation - Oberhofer Aircraft Sales - Pulse Helicopters Great Britain - R44 Sales.com - Regourd France - Regourd EC120 Voyager France - Robinson Dealers Worldwide - Robinsonhelicoptersales.com - Robinsonhelisales.com - Rotor and Wing - Rotorworld - RTS EJA International - Savback Sweden - Sibpromtorg Russia - Sky Bird Heli Ukraine - Sloane Helicopters Great Britain - Sun West - Tomlinson Aviation - Trade-A-Plane - Universal Helicopter - USaviation.com - Vortex Aviation - Wes Clark Aircraft - Wilson Aviation -

Impressive research Luxstar.:D THEY SELL HELICOPTERS :ugh: :ugh:

[elena]

I did not want to step in and ask where were the flight schools for sale!!!:rolleyes:
Thank you Hillerbee!
Luxstar, do you think a company would put his name for sale in view of everyone?
Common sense is to FIRST ask for the buyers' credentials, THEN release information once at a time...

[LUXSTAR]

well,may be i was wrong about this...the only reason i came to that conclusion,few above menshioned school or bussiness exchange hands,or fail to remain in the bussiness, as far as i know well known uk school high profile sales and training firm always up for sale....iam sure you know a few hillerbee,,,,iam not a great fan of schools in sales....comercial operation and training perhaps.when they start to flaunting there brand new choppers on their school website....and use the so called second hand...helis....anyway just an observation hillerbee...lux