LCCs need pilots!

[dartagnan]

I have just given a visit on a website called cockpit4u, and saw all slots are fully booked.That's crazy!

I want say to all of you, that spending so much money in a t/rating will not get you a job. Airlines and LCC want guys trained at their training facilities and having money, is more better than having debt and a useless type rating.

as you have problably heared, easy jet have decreased their minimum requirements to 50 hours, this means many LCC pilots are now OK for the move to Easy and see the life in Orange, resulting in many empty seats.

don't pay for a t/r unless you have a written promess for a job.
good luck:ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yeah well, whatever. See this post:


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2830459&postcount=29



Good luck,

WWW

[nuclear weapon]

I have just been enquiring about paying for a type rating myself which I concider silly but unfortunately this is what the industry has come to. I completed my mcc last week and the training capt that trained us said all airlines are desperate for pilots but they dont want to make it obvious cos we will sit back and not pay for type ratings and they will be forced to offer better t&c's.
The truth is if I am going to start through ryanair and pay for my own type rating and earn a pittiance for 9 months I might as well go for astreus scheme where within four months you can get a t rating and about 50hrs which is about right for easy. The capt at my mcc course told us there is no way they(LCC) will be able to meet thier recruitment targets so easyjet lowering thier hours on type to 50 is a way of getting ahead of ryanair which will see thier crews bailing out as i personally know a couple of guys at ryanair who cant wait to get out. Concidering the fact that ryanair will need 250 pilots early next year and they are already paying full salary if you have 100hrs.
Thats my plan and if anyone has a better or more sensible idea I will appreciate if you can post it.

[VFE]

Doing a TR is probably only likely to help you if you want to go for the Easyjet 50 hour thing. From most people I have spoken to it's still a HUGE gamble given the slightly increased job prospect. EZY still might not like you even after you have shelled out for 50 hours - so it's a daft move IMHO. Not only that, but most airlines like you to do the TR in THEIR sim with THEIR SOPS.

EZY have lowered their requirements for a reason - they're still not brave enough to initiate their own fATPL TR training conveyor belt system nor offer a job on the premise that you go off and pay for your own TR and then go back to them. However, they realise that they're running out of attractive TR'd FO's.... ergo things will soon mean they'll need to delve into their pockets if they want someone to fly their aeroplanes.

Therefore, now is probably the most stupid time to pay out for a TR without a promise of a job but what the hell would I know..... I have only watched the trends over a period of about 6 years, which isn't that long. Go ahead and pay for one if you think it'll help, at least it means the TR providers are not going to go out of business during the intrim period between now and the airlines sending their new f/ATPL's there for their company run and company sponsored TR training.

Crystal ball time: come 2007/8 airlines will be paying for the TR but bonding new recruits for a period of a few years whilst reasonable deductions are made from wages, just like they did pre-9/11.

VFE.

[nuclear weapon]

I forgot to mention I am currently putting in applications to various airlines that go for low timers like myself. Jet2, Bmi, thomas cook. Most of my friends that have gotten jobs with the exception of ctc sheme had to pay. Even ba cx told thier current intake to pay for half of the cost cos I know someone with them.
I will do my best now to get a job before commiting myself however I am only doing the research to have all the info at hand before I jump in. I know a couple of guys currently flying for easy and ryanair and they cant understand why thier employers simply cant start bonding people as they are beign worked to the limit.
I know a chap who's been with EZY now for almost a year and he told me accurately that EZY and CTC were going to run in to this problem somewhere down the line. His prediction then was one year I am shocked it seems to have come earlier than that. You will wonder why with thier degree educated managers and consultants they couldn't figure this out well in advance.
He was so happy to get a free type rating from ctc only to start complaining about waking up at 4am 5 days in a row now he does nothing but moan anytime we talk. Most of the guys he met there have bailed to BA.

My solution is this while I am not an expert I think it makes common sense.

*EZY like most big airlines have thier own sims. They should as BA and virgin does type rate thier pilots and bond them for three years.
*The high utilisation of thier sims will mean they probably could do it for 25% cheaper than third party ones that rent sims like astreus. It also brings a lot of stability to the rostering not that oleary cares.

Thats my own 2 cents worth.

[VFE]

So why in the name of sweet sunny Jesus are you thinking of paying for a TR when you've just admitted that your knowledge and research so far indicates exactly what I've just posted too?! You can take a horse to water....

Just hold your horses for five minutes and you'll see that none of us will have to accept the TR as part of the training deal soon, terrorism depending. It really gets my goat, no sorry, annoys the living :mad: out of me when guys talk about paying for a TR when things are clearly picking up. If we just all hold fire we'll all be in a better position - it's a bit like the "I'll fly for free" phenomenon.... just stick together and we'll all experience a better deal but I guess you'll always get some scab stabbing his mates in the back - human nature ennit!

If I can wait over two years before even looking into paying for an FI rating, let alone securing my first FI job, whilst bills mount up, I am sure some gebbit straight out of OATS can hold his water for five seconds instead of undermining the whole cozy situation by going out and paying for a TR - not only is it daft but it's just not sporting either. Of course, recruiters know this too so don't be suprised if your application gets filed in the B1N simply because of this.

Speak to those who hire mate.

VFE.

[avrodamo]

Unfortunately the damage in relation to type ratings was done the day the first person paid for it. Like it or not, in one way or another for that first position with the vast majority of operators you will be paying for your TR. It may be the cash up front, or deductions from salary with a bond. It is unfortunately the way things have evolved. I am not saying its right, but its how it is at the moment.
For as long as I can remember people have been saying don't pay for a TR, but sitting there being the martyr whilst everyone else pays up and gets a job surely can't be right either. If everyone refused to pay for their own type rating, well that would be quite a different, but that is never going to happen.
Without my type rating I had 18 months of PFO letters. With my type rating I had an interview sorted within a week, and 2 more interviews/selection days within the following months. The result is within 6 months of completion I am RH seat in a 737. I know it’s not definite, but it worked for me, and was the best money I ever spent. I'm afraid I could not take another 12 months of PFO letters!:ugh: :eek:

[Phileas Fogg]

(Speak to those who hire mate. )

Yes, I hire and I agree with Dartagnan to offer to self-fund providing that their is a confirmed and paid job at the end of it.

Others will independently self-fund and realise their mistake once they've done it and other will watch from the sidelines, perhaps for 6 years, whilst those with a determination move forward and start earning a decent salary.

[VFE]

Well this is the whole issue Phileas...

Those simply going out and handing over cash for any ole TR are making a mistake. Having a written letter, signed, sealed and official from an airline that you'll have a job with them on completion of a self funded TR is a different matter entirely however, as I have already said, there appears to be a strong force of opinion that within the next 18 months even this shall be a thing of the past as recruiters come to realise that they can improve junior FO ability and company efficiency by digging into their own pockets for some of the training costs involved with bringing a new f/ATPL holder into the right hand seat of one of their fleet rather than allowing them to swan off to NE Ole TR Agency for the privilage.

VFE.

[dartagnan]

I agree with WWW,I am myself in a pool, and I am not type rated.I have been trained 2 years ago, and one day a LCC sent me an email and have asked me to come for an interview...and guess what? I have found myself in class of 25!!!!, 25 chairs, and 2 pilots( me included ).

Some of my friends have been told to wait to get their interview.

If you have waited 1-2 years, you can wait 2 more months??

my observation:- LCC have ordered many planes,
-more new bases in europe, -TRTO needs students to run their sim,( it is in their advantage to work with airlines&Students (read post of nuclear weapon)).
-easy jet has decreased their minimum requirement
-open sky(specialy with eastern European LCC like wizzair)
-9/11 is now behind us
-economy is good
-and I am in a pool when 1-2 years ago, airlines didn't want see me.

all good for us!:ok:

[VFE]

Obviously you have a vested interest in putting forth that particular line Phileas, just as I have a vested interest in putting forth mine. ;)

VFE.

[VFE]

You know something is becoming standard when it gets abbreviated -

'SSTR'. :(

[Phileas Fogg]

And SSTR has been abbreviated for years .....

[Addy]

I have just given a visit on a website called cockpit4u, and saw all slots are fully booked.That's crazy!

I want say to all of you, that spending so much money in a t/rating will not get you a job. Airlines and LCC want guys trained at their training facilities and having money, is more better than having debt and a useless type rating.

as you have problably heared, easy jet have decreased their minimum requirements to 50 hours, this means many LCC pilots are now OK for the move to Easy and see the life in Orange, resulting in many empty seats.

don't pay for a t/r unless you have a written promess for a job.
good luck:ok:

whatever. I've been applying like a madman for almost 2 years now with zero result. Apparently this way doesn't work out for me, so I'll have to do it in a different way. Can't afford to sit around doing selections for another half year without getting any additional qualifications as it will not make me more attractive for airlines should I not pass the selection and I will be at the same point as where I am now, but 6 months further down the road.

This is why I have decided to take my chances and invest in a typerating course, starting in November. I do not have a guaranteed job, and I don't believe it is realistic to demand a job guarantee as companies do not know your qualities until they actually see you working in the cockpit. However, I do have guaranteed job interviews so it is entirely up to my own performances and mentality to land a job. I believe, after such a long time, this is the right way to move on to a RHS position...

By the way: No I do not only want to fly shiny jets, actually I have pretty much focussed on TP operators the last couple of months, and yes I have already done the FI route.

[scroggs]

One thing you guys have to understand is that the goalposts are constantly moving, as market conditions change. The fact that, last week, airline A demanded a TR and 500 hours on type is no guarantee that, this week, the requirements will be the same.

As WWW has indicated, easyJet's pilot requirements for the next 12 months are huge. Staggeringly so, given how bad the market was only 3 years ago. Ryanair needs similar - if not even greater - numbers. Europe is finally beginning to wake up to the low-cost model, and there are airlines popping up all over the place.This is all good news for you.

Inevitably, however, there is the other side of the coin. Firstly, FTOs are processing far more baby pilots than they used to - the output from just the UK schools is several times what it was 3 years ago. There are new FTOs springing up all over Europe, each spewing out new CPL/IRs all looking for jobs. The incorporation of former Soviet-aligned Eastern European countries into the European Union has seen a huge influx of aviation-wannabes who have few opportunities to fly in their own countries, so they are now - quite rightly - competing for Western European jobs. In other words. there may be record numbers of jobs available - but there are record numbers of wannabes chasing them!

The job of the recruiting people is to set requirements so as to balance the numbers of applicants of the right quality with the capacity to assess and select those applicants. As I've said above, the increasing number of jobs has been more than matched by an increasing number of wannabes. Therefore, the 'screen height' hasn't changed hugely over the last couple of years - in fact, as many wannabes apply for any job available (and quite a few that aren't), recruiting people are drowning under a deepening sea of applications! Therefore, they see little obvious need to reduce the hours/rating requirements.

There is some movement, of course - easyJet's dropping of the TRSS scheme for those with more than a certain number of hours is evidence that the pool of experienced pilots (which is what they'd prefer to recruit) is diminishing. My impression is that the demand from the Middle and Far East, where a 3000-hour 737 guy can expect to get a widebody direct-entry command at the moment, is driving this more than movement 'up the food chain' in the UK industry. Virgin and BA aren't recruiting enough to distort the market this much, and the Eastern promise is a draw for younger guys from pretty much every other UK airline - and elsewhere. Emirates alone is recruiting almost as much as the entire UK charter and scheduled industry!

What of the future? I believe that two factors will significantly and negatively influence commercial aviation in Europe in the near-ish future: environmental legislation and economics. It is now certain that an environmental tax will be placed on intra-European flights. The level of the tax has not yet been set, but its purpose will be to significantly reduce the number of short-haul flights within Europe in order to reduce aviation's carbon emmissions. Whether the politicians will have the courage to initially set the tax as high as it would need to be to dent the market is moot, but they will eventually - if economics doesn't do it for them! The economic argument is relatively simple: Europe and the West have been in continuous economic growth for a record period. Many factors are combining to suggest that this exceptional period may be coming to an end. Not for ever; and maybe not even for long, but aviation always amplifies economic cycles prilarily because it depends on discretionary spending. Any mild recession in the general economy invariably and inevitably results in a significant slowdown in aviation. Analysts seem to be coming together in suggesting that we are likely to see that economic slowdown in the next two or three years.

What does all this mean to you? Firstly, I don't see TRSS schemes going away. There may be fewer employers demanding type-rated pilots for a while, but it will not become a universal or permanent trend. There will always be some enlightened employers who realise that a TRSS is a waste of effort and money, and will use more sophisticated ways of selecting their future pilots, but I doubt that things will change significantly on that front under current legislation and practise. Secondly, for as long as I can remember, people have been predicting a) a pilot shortage or b) economic meltdown 'just around the corner'. There has never been a pilot shortage at your end of the market. Ever. There never will be. Economic meltdowns have never happened either. We've had some rough times, but the majority of the industry has survived. Whether you'll be lucky or unlucky, who knows? But I believe that 'luck' is largely a result of your own efforts and attitude...

Don't expect the market to change (either in its size or recruiting criteria) excessively in the next couple of years, but bear in mind what I said about legislation and economics. The industry cannot expand indefinitely, and eventually we will be constrained by those two factors - probably within the next ten years. However (here's the caveat!), my predictions can be just as flawed as anyone else's!

Scroggs

[Groundloop]

My solution is this while I am not an expert I think it makes common sense.
*EZY like most big airlines have thier own sims. They should as BA and virgin does type rate thier pilots and bond them for three years.
*The high utilisation of thier sims will mean they probably could do it for 25% cheaper than third party ones that rent sims like astreus. It also brings a lot of stability to the rostering not that oleary cares.
Thats my own 2 cents worth.

Just for info, please. What sims do EZY have and where are they? Last I heard they were using companies like Alteon.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

EZY mainly use Alteon. Also use CTC's Nursling site and Burgess Hill near Gatters. Apparently the new easyland is going to include a sim or two.

[Groundloop]

Thanks for that, BMRR. Didn't thing EZY had any sims. Just wondered if Nuclear Weapon knew something the rest of us didn't!

[nuclear weapon]

Thanks for that, BMRR. Didn't thing EZY had any sims. Just wondered if Nuclear Weapon knew something the rest of us didn't!
I thought they did cos someone mentioned it a while back. Even if they dont if they do get thier own sims while they will shell out a huge sum of money for say 5 at the cost of 2 airbuses. They should recoup thier money in about 6 years. If they are fully used like BAs. They can then rent out the unsociable hours slots 11pm-7am. I knew 2 guys who did thier type rating at ba facilities in heathrow at the begining of the year and they were getting midnight slots.
The payback for them will come in form of stable rosters and not having to cancel flights. I just got the phone from two friends who currently fly ezy and jet2 and they were shocked that we(fatpls) are concidering paying for type rating so I have just recieved a thirty minute sermon on why I should not get one. They are so shocked that we are discussing paying here as they both just complained they are so short of crews especially @ ezy. So i guess I'll look for a regular job for now. Not surprisingly they both said they haven't been to these forums in months otherwise they wont be shocked that people are concidering paying.
I hope very soon we all get the job and we wont have to come back.

[dartagnan]

let them be short of crew...
I am already planning to work for the company who give me top $ and my black list of airlines is already done .

[roxi]

Addy - I have just PM you.

Cheers

[Northern Highflyer]

I have heard from many sources about the expansion of the 75 fleet at Jet2 and how they are short of pilots at all levels, and how they are "desperate" and recruiting heavily. This has come from friends going through the interview process right now and from actual line pilots I have spoken to. I recently spoke to MF in HR to follow up on the CV I submitted a few weeks ago, and have been told that they do not have a real need for First Officers. Not sure what the real situation is now. :sad: :confused:

[DeltaT]

Easy just sent me an email, they turned down my application, and I have the 50hrs on 737 type.

[wingbar]

They want oven ready gobble gobbles still...no change there.

[boogie-nicey]

DeltaT, sorry to hear you got turned down by EZY. It just makes you wonder what the magic 'ingredient' is that they (EZY) were actually looking for ..... I guess I'll never quite figure it out :confused:

[kilafaki]

Hi Delta T
How many hours do you have total ?, du you forfill all the requirments ?

[dartagnan]

they have turned you down simply becausee they have no open positions for you. this is what I think....reapply in 2-3 months.

this is what i try to explain to people around me: airlines are not going to buy planes to make pilots happy. if there is no job, there is no job...

[MrHorgy]

DeltaT, sorry to hear you got turned down by EZY. It just makes you wonder what the magic 'ingredient' is that they (EZY) were actually looking for ..... I guess I'll never quite figure it out :confused:

It's called "Integrated". :oh:

Horgy

[Mercenary Pilot]

It's called "Integrated". :oh:

Nope its called CTC.

[DeltaT]

1700 total hours.
Can't apply for another 6 months EZY says.
Yes, did Integrated route.
There must be positions otherwise why advertise.
But yeah, there is bound to be something they didn't like, I just don't know what. I just have to say to myself, like someone once said on here, 'just because you have the licence, doesn't mean you are entitled to the job'.

Now does anyone know if Ryanair have lowered their requirements yet?

In the meantime I was thinking of getting a Baggage Handler job. So when I finally get an airline pilot job, I can Flight Plan it, Load it, then jump in and fly it. I don't think they have the tick boxes for that though on the application forms. :ugh:

[W.R.A.I.T.H]

So when I finally get an airline pilot job, I can Flight Plan it, Load it, then jump in and fly it. I don't think they have the tick boxes for that though on the application forms. :ugh:

And here's another way for MOL and the likes to cut labour costs. You shoulda been quieter :E

[DeltaT]

Yes, but its all that extra effort required to find out more about you as a individual, and what you can bring to a company that really takes all the time.

Its far less costly in interview to spend half a day with a dozen of you argueing around a table about making widgets. :}