CAA/JAA Licence Admin Problems (Applications, Paperwork, etc) [Archive]

BillieBob

16th Sep 2005, 18:33

But, Ham Phisted, the school in the US was approved by the UK CAA and so counted as a UK FTO.

The correct answer is that the State of Licence Issue is determined by the State in which licence training is commenced and can only be changed to another State with the agreement of the National Authorities of both.

If licence training is commenced at a FTO approved by the UK (e.g. with Bristol GS) then the flight training must also be completed at a UK approved FTO. Once the licence has been issued, further ratings (MEP, IR, Type) can be done in any JAA member state and entered into the licence by the State of Licence Issue.

Martin1234

16th Sep 2005, 19:14

Most JAR approved schools in the US are registered under the UK CAA. The requirement is not that the training takes place in the same country but under the supervision of the same authority.

There is a provision in the JAR-FCL 1.065(b) that might allow you to take the practical CPL test under the supervision of a different authority. This arrangement must be agreed by both authorities involved.

When you have your CPL issued you can add ratings (IR, type ratings etc) in any JAA state that have implemented the pertinent JAR's, even without using the provision of the aforementioned section of JAR.

jimpearce

23rd Sep 2005, 07:48

Does anyone know what the application fee is for CPL/ME-IR??
Couldn't find it on the wonderful CAA site!!
maybe £194??
Thanks,
Jim Pearce.

CAT3C AUTOLAND

23rd Sep 2005, 22:35

Yep, that's what is cost me, you save a few quid if you get it done together.

willby

24th Sep 2005, 14:03

Hi JP,
Here is the link to lasors with the CAA schedule of charges for all licence applications.
Willby
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_Scharges_prof_05.pdf

ChocksAwayUK

12th Jan 2006, 10:27

Hi all -
Have just rung the CAA to see where my new licence was as i sent the application some time ago. Apparently they sent my logbook back to me three weeks ago (lost in the post but that's another story) and had rejected the application due to the fact I have no signatures of instructors or examiners in my logbook. This is all a bit of surprise to me as i've never been told that any signatures are required and I've certainly never had an instructor offer to sign my logbook. Can anyone tell me what is required and what I'll need to do if Royal Mail ever do reunite me with my logbook. Should I have every flight :ooh: signed, every page, or what? The guy on the phone at the CAA was astoundingly unhelpful.

Charlie Zulu

12th Jan 2006, 10:51

From my first trial lesson, the instructor has always signed my logbook. All PPL, IMC, Night, FAA IR, FAA CPL, FAA Multi courses have been countersigned by my instructor(s) next to every flight (including P1 time during the PPL course).

My flight tests, whether JAA or FAA have been countersigned by the examiner in the "remarks" section even though they have all been first time passes and thus I was logging P1/S.

Even dual checkouts at the local club were logged as PUT and countersigned by the instructor in question.

The only flying is any P1 flying that I have done without any signatures (this equates to about 500 hours worth of flight time in my logbook). However in saying this, throughout my logbook there are periodic school stamps stating, "this logbook is true and correct" etc...

As for Royal Mail, that is another question! I'll ask my mother, but she may not know as she's an area manager for the post office, which is of course a different company.

ChocksAwayUK

12th Jan 2006, 10:55

Oh gawd, how did I get through every lesson without ever knowing that.

I did send seperate sheets of paper for each (CPL, IR, ME) course with the hours broken down into P1, instruments etc and signed by the head of training. Should that not be enough?

tom24

12th Jan 2006, 10:58

Chocks for what its worth, i've just had my blue book from the CAA with CPL/MEIR and i think i have about 2 or 3 sigs in my logbook. 1 was for the PPL test, one for the ME test and i maybe another but i can't remember what! Stalling or instrument flight or something like that?!?!

ChocksAwayUK

12th Jan 2006, 11:02

Thanks Tom - i guess all will be revealed if and when I recieve whatever the CAA has sent me. It's just a bit of a shock and I want to know what i can do about it in the meantime.

Charlie Zulu

12th Jan 2006, 11:29

Sounds like my instructors / schools have been overkeen on signatures then! Sorry to have worried you Chocks.

ChocksAwayUK

12th Jan 2006, 13:56

Well, looks like it might pay to be overkeen with the signatures.

philip2004uk

12th Jan 2006, 14:04

Someone said on another forum i think, that the school should have records of their hours with you on so that should be ok in the end.

Keygrip

12th Jan 2006, 14:11

"I have no signatures of instructors or examiners in my logbook"

Was it a CAA examiner that did your instrument rating test? Did he/she sign your logbook for the successful test?

ChocksAwayUK

12th Jan 2006, 14:18

Yes it was, no he didn't.

strafer

12th Jan 2006, 15:10

Even dual checkouts at the local club were logged as PUTWhy? Who was flying, you or the instructor?

Charlie Zulu

12th Jan 2006, 15:26

Yes I know I should have logged it as P1 as I was flying and the instructor just sat there enjoying the view.

However all of the instructors I have met over here in the UK (plenty of them) have always strongly insisted they logged P1 and I should log PUT even though they were happy that my flying was good enough to be signed off to fly as P1.

Probably a case of them hour building for their airline job...

I don't really want to go down the "should I have logged P1" as I know what the answer is... Yes I should have.

strafer

12th Jan 2006, 15:58

Probably a case of them hour building for their airline jobI think you've hit the nail on the head, CZ!

FlyingForFun

12th Jan 2006, 16:48

I've never signed a student pilot's logbook. The only time I'm aware of, as an instructor, that I need to sign a logbook is if the flight is the bi-annual 1-hour-with-an-instructor flight for revalidating the SEP rating.

However, if you log P1US, the commander of the aircraft (i.e. the examiner for a successful skills test) must sign your logbook. And when applying for any license, rating, etc, you should get your school to stamp your logbook, and the CFI to sign it, to confirm that the hours are correct.

As for logging club checkouts, when I do checkouts I log P1 and the person doing the checkout logs PUT. This is not because I am hour-building (even if I was hour-building, the small number of hours of checkouts I do would make negligable difference). It's because I am Captain of the aircraft. If I am unhappy with the way the person sitting next to me is handling the aircraft, as Captain I have the legal right to take the controls from him. On the other hand, if he logs P1 I don't have that legal right any more.

FFF
-------------

strafer

12th Jan 2006, 17:08

FFF - re your first paragraph, is it not the SEP rating that you have to sign rather than the logbook?

Re your last paragraph, are you sure that's correct? You've more experience than me, but that wasn't my understanding of what's P1.

Flying Aggie

12th Jan 2006, 19:27

All FAA Dual and Exam flts will be signed by the Instructor, also all your BFR and class rating will be signed too. When I started flying in the UK, the insturctor told no we don't sign log books, but when you finish the training, the school should stamp you log book at the end of the training.

I hope this helps, also since the CAA sent back your log books and everything back, as for the track no. since it is registered mail.

I asked for it and i had to track it down.

Flying Aggie

BEagle

12th Jan 2006, 19:29

FFF is completely correct. Instructor is PIC, other person is Pu/t.

Only an examiner may sign the 'Ratings - Certificate of Revalidation' page in the licence, not an instructor. The 2-yearly 1hr training flight must be signed as such by the FI who conducted it, so that when the examiner checks the log book it can be seen that the training flight was indeed conducted.

ChocksAwayUK

13th Jan 2006, 09:44

Well, apparently "lost in the post" translates as "lost and forgotten about in a pile on some CAA desk". (Or "pending" as they put it.)

Anyway...apparently every flight of a course should be signed by the instructor :oh:, but this is often let go if the rest of the application is OK. The thing is I'd also entered a date of a partial pass, rather than the re-test pass, and they couldn't accept both these errors. (Legal document and all that).

Thankfully they've reconsidered the application due to the "pending" and have sent the license out this morning. Phew!

Thanks for advice and discussion.

Keygrip

13th Jan 2006, 11:38

I would have thought that the REQUIRED signatures were, indeed, provided to the CAA.

The examiners for your flight tests (CPL and I/R) signed the pass certificates (of which you have thw white copies) and submitted them to the CAA to prove you had passed the flight tests.

The 170A signatories at the schools gave the examiner(s) a signature to confirm that you had completed the course of training with their school and that all was in order for you to complete the test.

If the CAA examiner for the I/R didn't sign your logbook then either it isn't REQUIRED or it was the most amazing co-incidence that YOU should be the only one he/she "forgot" to sign.

I've had it before where various members of the CAA staff have their own interpretation of the rules and requirements.

Had a night qualification application rejected because the candidate had only taken 50 minutes to do his five solo take-offs and full stop landings.

I've also had to postpone a flight test when a candidate was assured by the CAA that he did not need a UK Radio Licence in order to sit a UK CPL Skill Test.

ChocksAwayUK

13th Jan 2006, 13:52

Yup, although earlier on the phone I was told that all these signatures were required I have now in fact just received the license in the post with some clarification. (They must have sent it yesterday).

They've included a photocopy of their guidelines and highlighted the bit that I "failed" on:

On completion of any course of training, the Chief Flying Instructor (or his representatives) should certify the student's logbook as a true record of the training completed.

I would have thought that the extra sheets of paper with the breakdown of my hours for each course (signed by CFI) would have been enough.. apparantly not, or perhaps they were in a bad mood the day they reviewed my application and were being unnecessarily picky.

Leezyjet

13th Jan 2006, 21:14

My log book was signed and certified as correct at the end of my PPL. I even had to take that and the copy that was to goto the CAA to the local Cop Shop to get them to counter sign it to say that it was indeed correct !!!.

This was in Sarf Africa though.

:)

englishal

14th Jan 2006, 17:24

Whenever I do anything with an instructor (flying that is) I always get them to sign my logbook. Then you avoid situations like this.

no sponsor

15th Jan 2006, 10:24

For the record, I have the following signed off in my logbook:

PPL qualifying X-country flight
PPL Test
PPL Logbook entries verified (by CFI)
UC/VP certified
IMC test
Australian Bi-annual flight review
FAA Bi-annual flight review
CPL Test
MEP Test

I don't have an entry for my IR test or my 170A (for both CPL & IR). I was so excited when I passed my IR I forgot to ask. Mind you, the examiner sends off the test result forms, with the 170A certificate, so I can't see why you need it for the CPL or IR anyway.

Keygrip

15th Jan 2006, 12:00

The UK CAA say "electronic" logbooks are fine - provided you send them a print out of the records and not expect them to read the stuff electronically.

mad_jock

15th Jan 2006, 19:46

The only signatures I had in my log books is the one for PPL course complete.
And a sign off from the school for completing CPL/IR/MEP/FI training courses.

The americans do seem to be very over keen with instructors signing bloody everything. And some of the prats seem to take great joy out of adding things usually in a completly different pen colour than black. One **** tried to use purple. Even though I had a black one already provided.

Personally I had my proper log book under lock and key and had a gash one for US instructors to scribble in. Transfered the hours over into the proper one on the plane home. Just make sure you have the BFR in the log book you are carrying on the plane with the log book looking like its your second one.

As an instructor I have only signed logbooks for the 1 hour flight with an instructor and differences training using the stickers they sent out.

As for the old P1 on a dual check. Its up to the instructor, personally after a while when the novelty of having to add 10+ flights a day to my log book had worn off, I used to ask the punter if they needed P1 time or not. If it was for the 1 hour with an instructor they didn't have any choice. If they were a wannbie I used to let them log it P1 as long as they didn't need my input. And it seemed because I had actually asked the customer they usually said they wanted to log it PUT and never bitched and complained when they needed a check flight.

MJ

DeltaT

18th Jan 2006, 19:13

Any flight tests should be signed off (type ratings, BFRs, skill tests, and other completed ratings).
Any I/F time in a simulator must be signed.
In the UK, any stalling lessons must also be signed off (unless changed under JAA now?)
It is not a requirement to have each and every lesson in your history signed off, however you certainly are then covered!

FlyingForFun

18th Jan 2006, 20:00

DeltaT, are you talking about UK rules?Any flight tests should be signed off Only successful tests need to be signed off. It's not the test that's being signed off, but the PICUS time, and only successful flights are logged as PICUS.Any I/F time in a simulator must be signedNone of my simulator time was signed off for my IR or my MCC.any stalling lessons must also be signed off Not any more. Pre-JAR there used to be a requirement for a specified minimum number of hours stalling on the PPL sylabus, but no more.It is not a requirement to have each and every lesson in your history signed off, however you certainly are then covered!I agree with that!
FFF
-------------

DodgeG

19th Jan 2006, 10:37

One point mentioned earlier, pilots logging P1 after completing a dual check ! The CAA wont accept any P1 unless it was from a successful "skill test"....I had mine sent back and needed to do another 10 hours P1 to bring my hours up to 100 P1 for the CPL to be issued... mis-informed by many an instructor over the years !!

HighLow

19th Jan 2006, 22:00

hey PPRUNE,
heading over to US for CPL MER and a bit of IR and rest of IR in UK
prices on sites are excluding CAA fees , I understand that. Can anyone out there give us a rough approxiation of the "NOT included fees I can expect"
e.g. CPL Flight Test, IR Flight Test Fees etc
something tells me that they could be bigger than I realise...
thanks
HighLow

combineharvester

19th Jan 2006, 22:14

Current CPL and IR Test Fees payable to the CAA are £691!
This of course excludes the hire of the aeroplane for test.
CPL test can be approx 1hr30min, likewise 1hr45min for the IR. Depending on where you do the IR of course, as if you are not in Bristol, Leeds, Oxford or the other CAA exam airfield (Cranfield?) there will be a transit flight to the Airfield to meet the examiner from your FTO's base airfield. This will either be part of the IR you pay for or may be chargeable. Solo Hire of a Typical light twin (PA34, Be76, GA7)in the UK is around £250 per hour.
Hope this helps

HighLow

19th Jan 2006, 22:31

thanks combine for the info
holy ****...691 for the licence fee, jaysus, anyways.....
the mail i got off the school regarding prices have confused be slighty;
it states;
JAR endorsed school may i add
CPL 25 hour course $4995 14 to 21 days, ( we recommend doing this in the single and then doing the MEP).Aircraft for test $175 per hour 2 hours.
MEP 6 hours $1995 aircraft fro test $200 Test fee $250.
the test fee of 250$ at the end, would that be on top of the 691UK pounds (1200USDollars).....where did they get 250 dollars from??
any ideas?
HighLow

slow&low

19th Jan 2006, 22:42

just a guess : the 170A "exam" you must sit before getting a chance to spend all that money on the real exam?

HighLow

19th Jan 2006, 22:44

cheers slow,
makes sense, the Mock test fee! understand
but christ, 691 quid for the test, fell of my chair when i got a look at that on their website
thanks guys
HighLow

combineharvester

19th Jan 2006, 23:11

the $250 fee for the MEP test is notably similar to that fot a PPL skill test, where the fee in £ sterling is around £150, this is not a CAA fee, but paid direct to the examiner, like A PPL skills test!
hope this helps!
The CAA Scheme of charges is availiable here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_SCharges_prof_06.pdf for the Commercial Charges
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_Scharges_ppl_06.pdf for The PPL (&MEP) ones

WX Man

20th Jan 2006, 20:35

It is criminally high, and the justification for it (direct from the mouth of the CAA's top examiner) is:
"yes, it's expensive. But then after you're qualified, there is very little expense".
So... when you least want the expense, it's there. But then when you've qualified and you're (hopefully) earning, it's not expensive at all. Logical really!
The way PPL examining works is that examiners pay the CAA about £6000 to be registered. This they recoup from the PPL tests they do, and charge a fee for testing that they themselves set (usually £150-£200). Different kettle of fish.
PS if my info is wrong please feel free to correct me... Keygrip?

BEagle

20th Jan 2006, 20:48

Assuming that you are accepted for UK/FE PPL authorisation, the CAA fee is less than £300. Bearing in mind that the FE may, in a 3 year period, have to pay for up to 6 medicals, FI revalidation, a Dummy Skill Test with an Examiner's fee plus ac hire and has to conduct not less than 6 Skill Tests, it is reasonably simple to calculate the appropriate fee he/she will charge for a PPL Skill Test.
FIEs charge around £200 for a simple FI revalidation; for a PPL Skill Test I charge £160, for a SEP revalidation £80 and £0 for an IMC initial test. That's probably slightly below the industry norm - and, of course, Grumpy Gordon takes his cut.....:rolleyes:

Intheno

29th Mar 2006, 12:34

HI, Can someone tell me the life-span of a "Frozen ATPL/CPL/IR" Does it begin the day you get your final written exam pass, or when you pass the IR or finally when you get your licence issued at Gatwick?????? I think its five years........however my main question is.... What happens after five years if you still havn't got a flying job and you only have 250 hours in your log book? Do you loose everything? Is there a way of keeping it alive. Anyone else in this situation???? Cheers

FlyingForFun

29th Mar 2006, 12:56

Your "Frozen ATPL" actually consists of a number of different things, each of which needs to be maintained seperately:

- A CPL, which is valid for 5 years. Revalidated by sending the CAA a cheque

- An Instrument Rating, which is valid for 1 year. Revalidated by test, either on an aircraft or in a simulator

- A Multi-Engine Piston Class Rating, which is valid for 1 year. If you revalidate your IR on an aircraft, this will also revalidate your class rating

- A Multi Crew Course, which does not expire

- Credits for the ATPL written exams, which remain valid so long as you have had a valid Instrument Rating some time within the last 7 years. If you let your instrument rating lapse by more than 7 years, the exam credits expire and you have to re-sit the exams

- A medical, the duration of which depends on your age

Sorry, I do not know for certain exactly when the validity period of each of these commences, but I think it is the date the CAA processed the application.

See LASORS for more information on each of these, including renewal requirements if you happen to not revalidate before the expiry period of any one of these.

FFF
--------------

genius747

17th May 2006, 22:38

I have an Irish JAA PPL issued about 4 years ago, I have a stamp in my logbook saying I hold a restricted R/T licence, signed by the CFI of the flight training organisation I done my PPL at.
I will soon begin training for my CAA CPL. Do I need to get a CAA issued R/T Licence.

T668BFJ

17th May 2006, 22:45

Yes you do.

genius747

17th May 2006, 22:48

wow, that was quick!

Keygrip

18th May 2006, 01:06

It was correct, too.

Pre-requisite for test.

Lasors B1.4 Last half of last paragraph.

arn3696

17th Jul 2006, 10:09

Does anyone know how long the CAA take to process CPL/IR applications?

Thanks

LFS

17th Jul 2006, 10:12

If you have a look at the PLD section of the CAA's website they have the details of how they are doing in processing applications. As of today they are processing applications received on 3rd July 2006.

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=137

EGAC_Ramper

17th Jul 2006, 11:56

Mine took exactly 3 weeks if from posting to arriving.....mind you the money went out of my account sooner! :}

helicopter-redeye

17th Jul 2006, 16:47

I had to wait six weeks and complain to get movement.

During that time Gatwickii managed to process and change for an update to a PPL though ....

The money will leave your account on the day you think about paying it.

arn3696

18th Jul 2006, 10:01

Cheers guys, yeah they took the money from my card the day after I took the application into them!

Thanks

ramshorn

21st Jul 2006, 20:15

Hi
Right here goes. I went to a flight school 5 years ago in USA to do a PPL. I then went back to do 50 hours PIC hour building to qualify to train to do my FAA SE/IR. All of that 50 hours was flown in the left hand seat as PIC, but during my time there i became good mates with one of the instructors who came along with me for most of those 50 hours. I was assured that this was not a problem,and still counted as PIC even though he also logged them as he obviously wanted to build hours aswell, and the time was logged as PIC and dual. I have recently completed JAA ME/IR, and did JAA CPL at another school in USA last August.
I did not apply for CPL until now as i thought that i would apply for ME/IR, CPL at the same time so reducing application fees.
I have just received a letter from the licensing officer at the CAA saying that my licence is pending due to falling short of the following requirements, Quote:Your logbook shows some entries have been dual logged as PIC and Dual. This practice is not recognised in the UK and all entries are treated as dual. Taking into account the hours logged in this manner there would appear to be a shortfall of 50.2 hours of the required 100 hours as PIC(This also includes a shortfall of PIC cross country hours).
As you can probably imagine, this leaves me in a predicament as not only do i now have to go and shell out another however much on hour building but it is highly likely that i will not be able to get this done before mid august when my years CPL lapses and i have to train again for CPL test.
This is almost making me weep like a dog just thinking about it!:{ Though this really is a big problem i'm going to make sure i stay positive about it and try and work through this, but i'd really appreciate any advice on what i can do from here. Obviously if i ever knew this would be the situation when i did my hour building in USA i would have gone off and done it alone, or at least not with an instructor(friend!) logging my hard earned hours.
When i went to do my JAA CPL In Florida should the FTO there not have seen that my PIC hours do not fit in with CAA regulations?
Any help or advice would be really appreciated.
Thanks
:sad:

Piltdown Man

21st Jul 2006, 22:26

This one is regularly coming up. If you fly a single pilot aircraft, only one person can count the time. Unless you are a pupil, when you get the P2 and the instructor the P1. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch (or free hours) and if ever a things looks too good to be true, it usually is!
:{ Sorreee
PM

Hufty

21st Jul 2006, 22:34

Well, if you were the commander then you should log P1. Whatever your friend wants to log is up to him. One of you was designated the commander on the ground before you got airborne and that person is the one who logs the PIC time.

If you decided that he would be the commander and log PIC and you would log dual as a student, then you're in an awkward situation and you need to do some real P1 time. If you decided that YOU would be designated the aircraft commander then you are fine - you have just incorrectly logged the time as dual when it should be PIC and he has incorreclty logged the time as PIC when he isn't entitled to log anything.

It all depends on which one of you was in command.

Chesty Morgan

21st Jul 2006, 22:39

Seems to me your "friend" should have known better. I'm assuming he knew what you were trying to achieve with the hour building.

Get your log book back. Tippex out the Dual stuff and change it all to P1 and reapply.

I had to do a small amount of "adjusting" post fATPL issue and it didn't seem to bother Mr CAA.

Good luck.

speedrestriction

22nd Jul 2006, 00:54

This one is regularly coming up. If you fly a single pilot aircraft, only one person can count the time. Unless you are a pupil, when you get the P2 and the instructor the P1.
PM

I thought P2 was for co-pilots on MPA. Hours as a student pilot undergoing training is PUT I believe. Then there is SPIC and PICUS. I believe that SPIC is for integrated course students as sole manipulator of controls while PICUS is for successful skills tests....:{ ..It is a bit of a minefield; refer to LASORS for definitive answers.

SR

Keygrip

22nd Jul 2006, 01:42

I think the bottom line is - you're screwed. The "friend" and the flight school did you no favours (but they did make lot's of money out of it, eh?)

My last chat with the CAA about someone in a similar (but by no means identical) situation (i.e. 12 months about to expire) resulted in the Authority saying words to the effect of "the application has been made within the 12 months so should be honoured by us when the shortfall is corrected".

Whether they'll actually do that is a different matter. The CAA change their mind at the drop of a hat - or threat of legal action.

I suspect you did a single engine CPL test so the class rating part should not be a problem. Have the authorities issued (or even offered to) the multi engine piston rating and/or instrument rating to your PPL?

Piltdown Man

22nd Jul 2006, 07:12

Speedrestriction: You are absolutely right!

PM

potkettleblack

22nd Jul 2006, 10:44

What about amending your logbook to reflect the hours as P1 as stated above and then write to the CAA setting out formally the following:-

- state that you were the sole manipulator of the controls

- provide evidence of you having paid the flight school for P1 hours - presumably less than the dual rate. Give them extracts of web print outs etc and credit card statements. Reference these up properly and cross refer to them in your letter.

- hang the instructor out to dry by stating that he did nothing and should not have logged hours as it was not an instructional flight, he was just a passenger and a close acquaintence and it was incidental that he was an instructor.

- point out that you already had a PPL and so why would you fly with an instructor as it makes no logical sense whatsoever

- try and get a letter of support for your case if you can from the flight school (hard I imagine)

- state that you are willing to make a signed affidavit in front of a lawyer stating that the above is true and fair if the CAA require this

For the sake of a bit of time drafting a formal letter and a stamp I would go down this route. Remember to be polite but to the point in your letter. Quoting applicable references to the ANO might also help and make the CAA realise that you are not going to be fobbed off. Remember they have rules to follow as well and they can't decline you if you can prove you were correct.

Good luck.

Keygrip

22nd Jul 2006, 11:16

Really depends on how you have entered the flights in your logbook - by that I mean any remarks and/or instructor signatures.

Attempting to alter your logbook now that it has been seen by the CAA is tantamount to serious fraud and is not a direction that I would recommend anybody to go in.

I hope, for your sake, that I'm wrong when I say that the way you appear to have entered the flights (both dual and P1) highlights to the authority that you had an instructor on board - so you are screwed.

I saw another CPL candidate, at a different school (I've worked out where you you did the JAA CPL) who had over 600 hours - of which only THIRTY MINUTES was genuinely flown solo, including the full PPL course. I was amazed to discover that it was not only possible, but legal.

You have encountered a problem generated by flying within a system (FAA training) when training towards a licence and/or rating that they know, or care, little or nothing about. I would suggest that both schools you used were by a river - one FAA with "links with a JAA school", one JAA approved.

Pilotdom

22nd Jul 2006, 12:31

I dont mean to sound funny and Im not having a go at you but didnt you think this was a bit dodgy when you were doing the flying?

ramshorn

22nd Jul 2006, 13:46

I wish i could just tippex the dual entries out now, but i don't think that would go down too well with the CAA.
The thing is that as one of you said, these flights that i did were operated as me being the PIC as i was the one building the hours towards my IR but with my lack of experience and know how of the rules and regs i stupidly(in hindsight) let my mate who was an instructor come along for the ride and allowed him log the time aswell.
Thankyou potkettleback for your advice on what to put in my grovelling letter to write to the CAA, which i'm going to start writing this afternoon.

Cheers for the support and advice:ok:

B2N2

22nd Jul 2006, 15:27

Not an uncommon situation.
I have flown with a lot of students after their official training finished.
Not necessarily because they needed it, most of the time just for the fun of it.
I think the instructor is blamed here, don't agree with it.
His only mistake seems to have have been not to remind you how to log it properly.
Yes, you have not logged it properly. You were PIC, you should have logged it as such without adding the dual received bit.
What I don't understand is as to how you were able to do the skill test without the examiner reviewing your hours logged.
As far as advise is concerned; fly the 50 hours.

Keygrip

22nd Jul 2006, 23:44

B2 - there's nothing wrong here.

The hours were logged under FAA regs quite legitmately - the problem was going to an FAA school in Arizona who either don't know or don't care about the regulations when logging time towards a JAA licence or rating - which is what the customer ultimately wanted.

The examiner for the CPL test (if he did bother to check at all - which I doubt) only need to look for minimum total flight hours of 150 before starting the course, number of dual hours flown on the course and evidence of having completed all the requirements for the JAA night qualification.

I do find it sad that the two schools involved allowed it to happen - but what has happened is a quite legitimate rip-off.

Afraid it's another case of "buyer beware" and observation of aviation rule number two...."It's YOUR responsibility to make sure it's right".

(Rule one? Don't fly into anything hard.)

upandaway79

9th Aug 2006, 12:19

Having done the MCC course after my training should my licencelook or have anything different on it or will it be issued just like someone who hasnt done an MCC?

Mercenary Pilot

9th Aug 2006, 12:26

No, nothing goes in your licence I think some companies may supply you with an insert but this isnt nessesery (but it is a nice touch).

However, you should have been given a course completion certificate. DONT lose it, you need it to apply for your first multi pilot aircraft type rating.:ok:

upandaway79

9th Aug 2006, 13:09

Thanks for the reply,
just got abit paranoid that something got lost on the way:eek:

Crieff-ite

24th Aug 2006, 12:18

Hi all, we're looking for the document on the CAA (uk) website that gives you the information on what you need to send off to apply for the CPL(h) licence (in other words, sending off your ppl licence, medical, passport, skills test documents etc).
We can't find it on the CAA website (but we know it exists somewhere in there) or in Lasors. We can all come up with good guesses from when we sent it off ourselves but can't fully remember all the documentation.....:ooh:
Grateful for any definate replies guys.

Many thanks

Crieff-ite

potkettleblack

24th Aug 2006, 13:50

The guidance as to what to send off is on the last page of the application forms generally. Just scroll down to the right form off the attached page.

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=list&type=formcat&id=2

Crieff-ite

24th Aug 2006, 14:11

Thank you for that info, very very much appreciated........now we are all slapping each other on the fore-heads and saying "Doooh!!"

Best wishes

Crieff-ite

helicopter-redeye

24th Aug 2006, 18:35

It's worth calling them on the phone to see what else they may want (but forgot to mention).

I ended up with four rounds of '.. and can you send us XXX' before the great game was finished.

(But they took the payment without any problems ...)

:ugh:

Crieff-ite

27th Aug 2006, 07:40

Thanks HR, just passed that info onto him this morning......I was lucky, I only played CAA ping-pong once (no we don't need that and oops, now we do!).

Kind regards

Crieff-ite

Boddy27

5th Sep 2006, 18:51

Quick question from a soon-to-be CPL applicant :)

I know I should probably be asking my CFI about this but since I won't be seeing him for a while and I can't get him on the phone I was just wondering what documentation I'm required to submit to the CAA along with the CPL application form?
I know I have to submit medicals, proper identification, logbooks and some other stuff but I'd just like to know if copies of said documets is sufficient or if I need to submit the actual logbooks/medicals/passports since I'm a bit concerned about sending them through the post since I live outside the UK.

One other thing; do the CAA actually need verification and signed proof that the hours in my logbook are valid and correct, or do they somehow verify the hours are correct themselves? The CAA's site isn't much help about this but I'd rather know so that I can get the papers signed before I send them the application rather than have the hassle after I've sent them.

Thanks in advance :o)

potkettleblack

5th Sep 2006, 19:08

The CAA website has all the answers. Go to the form you need and the back page has all the attachments you need to send.

Boddy27

5th Sep 2006, 20:18

Ok, that answers the first question, but as I asked before; do I have to send the actual original documents?
Can I just send photocopies of my logbooks, passport (as ID) and medical?

And I still couldn't find any info regarding the logbook entry validations. :confused:

scroggs

6th Sep 2006, 08:23

You can ring the CAA. They are best placed to answer your questions. Their contact details are here. (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=137&pagetype=90&pageid=6297)

Scroggs

helicopter-redeye

6th Sep 2006, 08:25

No you need the originals. You can send an alternate to the passport (Birth cert I think) or a copy of the Passport signed/ auth'ed by your school.

But call the CAA PLD for advice. THis is the one thing that does not need a credit card number in advance (its already built into their cost model)

... and watch out for all those valuable docs coming back in the torn CAA brown paper parcel afterwards ...:ugh:

h-r;)

pipergirl

6th Sep 2006, 12:52

Or if you are concerned with original docs being sent by post, try and get a cheap fare go to the CAA in LGW yourself...I believe once you go before 12 noon and give all your docs in, they will have the licence for you by the end of the day.

provo

12th Sep 2006, 23:45

I would be grateful of some guidance from anyone who can assist

I have a CAA CPL (ATPL exam credits) with Perf E. I have also passed the JAR Performance exam at ATPL level. I'm doing the MCC in the near future, followed hopefully thereafter by a MPA Type Rating.

Q.1 Is there a need to convert my CAA CPL to a JAR CPL

Q.2 Am I right in saying that I can attach the JAR performance exam credit to my national licence

Q.3 Assuming (again) that I get 500hrs MPA can I apply for a JAR ATPL with CAA ATPL exam credits

Many thanks

Fokkersnagger

13th Sep 2006, 00:38

Hi Boddy; I am terribly and truly sorry, but your question is impossible to answer. Would probably be a lot easier if you stated which CAA you're talking about, there are A LOT of them, sadly... I see that some have answered your question assuming it's the UK CAA, as if it were THE one and only aviation authority on the face of the earth :8

BigGrecian

13th Sep 2006, 03:23

I'm a bit concerned about sending them through the post since I live outside the UK.

So therefore it is the UK CAA.

It has to be said as stated before - there is a guidance sheet attached which answers your questions - so next time I suggest you read ALL the paperwork before asking questions...:

•Passport or Birth Certificate only. Photocopies are acceptable provided that the relevant information is clearly presented and certified by the Head of Training (or authorised signatory) of the approved training provider.
• Existing holders of UK Professional Flight Crew Licence or holders of another JAR-FCL Pilot’s Licence can ignore this requirement.
Logbooks:
Computerised logbooks are acceptable, provided that these are submitted in hard copy paper format, and contain the relevant
information (as specified in the Air Navigation Order Article 28) with each page certified as true and signed by the applicant.
Medical - Must be original
Valid UK JAR-FCL Class One Medical Certificate. Holders of a JAR-FCL Class One Medical Certificate issued by another JAA Member State should either contact the CAA Aeromedical Centre at Gatwick or refer to the CAA website www.caa.co.uk for details on acceptability and mutual recognition.
• Validity must be sufficient to cover the anticipated licence
Send it recorded/registered where signatures are required. After all that's how passports are sent to you normally - so there shouldn't be a problem.

Hour Builder

13th Sep 2006, 06:43

1) Not really, it wont stop you getting employed by a UK operator, although they may ask you to convert to JAR CPL. If so, it just a paperwork exercise, and a fee...of course. Having JAR CPL may make you more employable in other JAA states though.

2) Of course. You have to, as there is no Perf A exams anymore.

3) UK CPL (A)/IR holders who have passed UK ATPL (A) theory examinations, and have 500 hours flying experience in multi-pilot operations will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations for the purpose of JAR-FCL ATPL(A) licence issue. This credit will remain valid for a period of 7 years from the most recent validity date of the IR (A).

Hour Builder

13th Sep 2006, 06:48

High Wing Drifter

13th Sep 2006, 07:23

Yup, 10 working days, for license issue.

Beaver100

13th Sep 2006, 09:22

It never ceases to amaze me with regard to the problems faced by students training for their JAA licences.

Surely the idea of the JAA licences, especially the CPL/ATPL was so that any student of a fully compliant JAA member state could train in any one of those countries, get the JAA licence, and then work in any one of those said countries. :rolleyes:

It doesn't seem very 'Joint' to me at all. I regularly see jobs advertised from UK airlines that ask for the JAA ATPL to have been issued in the UK, otherwise don't apply etc..

JAA just doesn't seem to be working, it has been years since this system started and it still seems to be that every JAA member state has it's own rules.:yuk:

Tell me, what is the point of getting more and more countries to become JAA compliant, if the JAA licence issued from that country is worth Jack Shi* ?? :ugh:

WASTE OF MONEY !!!!!

Hour Builder

13th Sep 2006, 16:05

Firstly, if you've ever witnessed the way some of the training, (especially the theory exams) has been carried out in other states, you'd see why JAA isnt as hunky dorey as everyone would like. The JAA licence issued in other states are not worth Jack sh1t at all, why else is easy jet currently be employing lots of non UK, JAR licence holders. The reason the UK airlines sometimes request that a pilot should have a UK JAA licence (what they mean by this is, you'll need to convert a non UK to a UK JAA licecnce) is that believe it or not the UK CAA is easier to deal for the UK operator then other NAA's.......

JAR's after all are not law, and every JAA will interpret JAR in different ways. Once EASA comes into effect, that will be law, and JAA states will no longer be able to alter that in any way.

Am I wrong?

Beaver100

13th Sep 2006, 17:31

"Firstly, if you've ever witnessed the way some of the training, (especially the theory exams) has been carried out in other states, you'd see why JAA isnt as hunky dorey as everyone would like. The JAA licence issued in other states are not worth Jack sh1t at all, why else is easy jet currently be employing lots of non UK, JAR licence holders. The reason the UK airlines sometimes request that a pilot should have a UK JAA licence (what they mean by this is, you'll need to convert a non UK to a UK JAA licecnce) is that believe it or not the UK CAA is easier to deal for the UK operator then other NAA's......."

:ok: Congratulations on your posting, well that only took 7 hours for the first 'UK licence is in a completely different league than all other licences' post !!

I don't believe you in relation to training in other JAA member states. Do you seriously expect me to believe that all of the dutch pilots, spanish, italian etc etc, for all of the years before JAA were flying for professional european airlines with a licence which in your words was ' worth Jack Shi*' ??

I am sure that your ill informed posting will upset a lot of european training organisations. A JAA licence is a JAA licence. That was the reason for setting up the system in the first place. 'Harmonisation' they called it.

What I was trying to convey in my previous post was that it should be relatively easy for low experience Brit pilots to get jobs in europe with a JAA licence. After all, there are a lot of european pilots here, high time or otherwise because the UK pay more. But if you are a Brit struggling for your first commercial job then you should be able to take your new JAA EUROPEAN LICENCE, and work in those countries where pay is low but experience is available. After all, the national language of Air Traffic is English so you shouldn't really have a problem.

You hit the nail on the head about other NAA's in europe being difficult to deal with. My point was exactly this, why are they so difficult ? and if they are being this way with Brits, then perhaps its high time we did the same in the UK. Obviously if they are so difficult then the JAA system isn't working and in your words is worth Jack Shi* . Protection of the industry for British pilots who have spent thousands on flight training.

You may not like it but the truth hurts :D

Hour Builder

13th Sep 2006, 18:56

"Congratulations on your posting, well that only took 7 hours for the first 'UK licence is in a completely different league than all other licences' post !!"

People have lives mate, dont have to reply straight away to make a point.

"I don't believe you in relation to training in other JAA member states. Do you seriously expect me to believe that all of the dutch pilots, spanish, italian etc etc, for all of the years before JAA were flying for professional european airlines with a licence which in your words was ' worth Jack Shi*' ??"

Firstly, "jack sh1t" was your words not mine. All I was saying is, and this is based on sitting exams in spain, I've seen lots of people cheat in their exams in spain, and nothing was done about it. This sort of bad press is nothing new to forums like this, and industy as a whole. Frankly i dont much care if it upsets non UK FTO's an neither do the airlines, the fact this is true is what matters at the end of the day.

The other NAA's are not only bad with Brits, they are just bad in general.

I totally agree, a JAR licence should be a JAR licence, and although the truth may hurt, perhaps peolple should wake up and see reality...never gona happen :rolleyes:

Do UK JAR licences actually have trouble getting jobs in other JAA states, or is it just non UK JAR licences holders finding it hard to get jobs in UK?

Beaver100

13th Sep 2006, 22:53

So, shock, horror you have seen people cheating on their exams in Spain have you ??? What exam would this be for then, your PPL I would guess as I can't see a CPL/ATPL on your profile.. Well, yes the UK has always been so squeeky clean.

You said in an earlier posting that,

'Having JAR CPL may make you more employable in other JAA states though.'

then contradict yourself by saying later,

'I totally agree, a JAR licence should be a JAR licence, and although the truth may hurt, perhaps peolple should wake up and see reality...never gona happen':ouch:

Good to see you agree with me on that point, so what is your view that if a brit pilot with a JAA licence cannot get work in an EU country other than the UK ( due to unhelpful NAA's and inability to convert) then the UK should close the doors on european pilots trying to get work here with a non UK issued JAA licence ?

Might as well just abandon JAA and go back to the old CAA ATPL exam syllabus then. It was easier and cost less, because obviously JAA harmonisation does not work from a flight crew licencing standpoint. Also, you didn't need the MCC in those days either.

This has probably all fallen on deaf ears though, lots of you will still think about mortgaging parents houses for what is fast becoming the best way of being repeatedly shafted :ok:

Hour Builder

14th Sep 2006, 06:39

Was ATPL theory, just because someone has a PPL doesnt mean they havent done ATPL theory.

I dont contradict myself at all either, the first comment was reference to having a UK CPL over a JAR, saying it "may" make you more employable in other JAA states.

To be honest I dont have a view on other NAA's inability to convert, this is not something I've looked in to what so ever, hence why I ask at the bottom of my last post. I am only aware of non UK JAR licence holders having to convert to UK.

Its funny how you vent your frustration here, having obviously not done enough research before getting your licence. If its you that keeps getting repeatedly shafted, perhaps we have found the common denominator?

Ironic your name is beaver too, sounds like you need to go find some.

Beaver100

14th Sep 2006, 09:13

"Its funny how you vent your frustration here, having obviously not done enough research before getting your licence."

It's not a question of research, it is a question of trust. An FTO tells you that your licence is going to be valid in any JAA member state, and advises you that you will be able to work there. You do a little big of digging and find out that this may be true, then you get tied up studying for your ATPL subjects. Therefore, not much time is actually spent trying to find out from each and every NAA whether or not you can work in their country with a minimum of fuss. When you do actually find out that it is virtually impossible to do so with minimum hours then yes, you do feel somewhat 'cheated' Especially when our UK market seems to be flooded with european JAA licenced pilots working here, a lot of them with minimum time.

It is also not a vent of frustration, but a discussion point. You do realise that this is a discussion forum don't you. If this is too much for you then you could always go and post on a womens knitting forum instead.

People shell out a lot of dosh on this career and expect to be given the truth. If the truth hurts then maybe "you can't handle the truth" Because when you finish your little MEIR and are stomping around looking for a job then perhaps this will matter a little bit more to you.

Effectively you are paying for a UK licence and not a European licence. So, at the start of your career you can only work in the UK. Pitting yourself against the thousands of others that have just got their shiny new licence. What is going to make you stand out ? Why are you any different than the rest ? Then you find out that some UK airline has taken on some europeans with a little bit more experience than you. Well, good for them, so can you now go and work in their country with your new JAA licence and slip into that low hour job they vacated to come to the UK. Answer = NO. Why, because their NAA couldn't give a shi* about you.

The point is that this matters, just a quick look on another forum here and you will see why http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=240982&page=8 UK Pilots so desperate that they are almost bankrupt, harrowing stuff. Why, because they are stuck with just the UK market to apply to, and that UK market is getting flooded. Next year I imagine it will be worse with even more countries joining the EU. But of course none of this matters to you because with your new UK issued JAA licence you will just be able to walk into a job wont you ?? :ok:

Hey, just be sure that you have done YOUR RESEARCH before you start shelling out your thousands on the flying part.:=