Air Canada Pilot Down-bid? [Archive]

brucelee

7th Sep 2006, 16:48

Not even sure that I am. It might be that mesely $30 a month that comes out of my paycheck. Maybe not. Once again proving I really don't give a **** about the whole thing. As I recall, I also gave YOU some of my money when I worked with YOU so that YOU could achieve what YOU wanted to. Hey no problem, you're welcome. Hope it helped. Oh ya, I forgot. It didn't. Good on you for going after a dead man's estate, bro. You've got class. You're also very persistant. Sort of like that dog**** you step on and the smell just doesn't seem to want to go away, even after you scrape it off.

exbengal

7th Sep 2006, 17:21

Actually lee, acpa was asked if they would indemnify the deseased estates, and guess what.................they would leave the widows and kids holding the bag.........now you want to talk about dog****, try the likes of the past acpa reps, talk about looking out for your own, just keep paying the bills lee, your a good little boy

brucelee

7th Sep 2006, 17:33

So what you're saying is you would also be willing to go after a dead man's wife and kids. Good luck on your future endevours benny.

Jambora

7th Sep 2006, 18:10

Exbengal, I have been with Jazz for a long while now and what scares me the most about that lawsuit is the stress it's causing you guys.

Even if you were to win a good amount of money if 3/4 of you guys are sick because of the stress of the last 20 years you have not won anything and the people that will loose the most is your family.

Sometime it's better to call it a defeat and wait for another chance then to make it a fight that will cost you your health.

just my 2 cents

exbengal

7th Sep 2006, 22:41

lee, your a smart little runt aren't you, you won't indemnify your own so why should we,.......... yep be glad to clean up.
Jambora, I really doubt your with Jazz, because if you were the lawsuit hardly ever gets talked about at work, especially with those not involved, so how can we be stressed, I certianally don't know of any stress leaves, the lawsuit is running on a contingency basis, if the sharks do well so do we, and as of now discovery is going good for the AO group (very thereputic) and looking forward to trial.
Binding arbitration my friend, justice may be slow in Canada, but its just.

J.O.

8th Sep 2006, 00:31

you just keep paying their legal fees, when those old farts die we'll still go after the estates, your doing a good job lee. now piss off.

I've been watching this crap from afar for many years now, but this is a new low. With that statement, you have just proved how pathetic this whole little pity party really is. As Don Henley said, "Get Over It!"

exbengal

8th Sep 2006, 01:07

get over it,yea right, we haven't gone to trial yet........if you feel so badly about us going after the estates then indemnify them, J.O.,............. oh I forgot thats acpa morality at its best

Jambora

8th Sep 2006, 01:24

Exbengal: if I tell you my profit sharing minus Jazz ensemble is close to 0, do you believe I work for Jazz now... hi! hi! hi!

Just think we have only a very very small amount of time on this planet and we should try to spend it on what's positive in our life.

Life is not fair but it's still a good ride...!!!

exbengal

8th Sep 2006, 10:00

Thanks Jambora, I find the litigation very positive, you sound like a religious type, you know............eye for an eye..........please don't hijack this with your moral beliefs, litigation is a natural process after acpa renegged on binding arbitration, thats all. I still don't see any AO types stressed out.

J.O.

8th Sep 2006, 17:16

get over it,yea right, we haven't gone to trial yet........if you feel so badly about us going after the estates then indemnify them, J.O.,............. oh I forgot thats acpa morality at its best
If you had actually read my posting, instead of viewing it with the same head-in-the-sand emotional state that you view this whole subject, you would see that I am not involved (as in "from afar..."). I am not an ACPA member, but I am an airline pilot in Canada who sees statements like yours as evidence of the lowest form of human behaviour. I heard the rants in the bar from the AO group many times back when this all started, and it sounds just as petty today as it did then.

exbengal

8th Sep 2006, 20:50

North of You

8th Sep 2006, 21:56

Your two are an embarrassment to the industry in Canada!

RussD

8th Sep 2006, 22:39

Thanks for your esteemed opinion j.o., too bad the courts don't share your views and see it as petty, renegging on binding arbitration is in this country taken seriously as witnessed in front of the Supreme Court of Canada, please try to pay ATTENTION TO THIS PART acpa was given the chance to indemnify the estates but flat out refused.
Funny, I find people that lie steal and cheat as one of the lowest form of human behaviour.
Enjoy your weekend.
So let me see if I have this right.
-Your group is jilted by the (OAC) ACPA types when they reneged on a binding arbitration they themselves insisted on.
-Your group inititiated a legal complaint to address said misbehavour.
-During the course of the legal procedings your group offered to let the widows, children and estates of the (deceased) guys you have a beef with off the hook.
-The ACPA refuses to let them be excluded from the proceedings despite your most generous offer.
-Then this J.O. guy then says you guys are the lowest form of humanity!!!!?????:confused:
For some reason or other this guy is spring loaded to hate you fellas regardless of how appalling stupid his comments make him look.
Oh well. Some guys just seem to equate the size of their airplanes to their own sense of self righteousness I guess,,, too bad.

exbengal

8th Sep 2006, 22:52

Yes RussD you have got it right, I imagine j.o. is a large watch type

29chev

9th Sep 2006, 04:48

-During the course of the legal procedings your group offered to let the widows, children and estates of the (deceased) guys you have a beef with off the hook.
-The ACPA refuses to let them be excluded from the proceedings despite your most generous offer.
Man you guys are nice.....I mean WOW really and truly!!!! I totaly don't get what the problem is....
Oh wait a sec maybe this is only one side of the story....maybe there is more to it....na that can't be it....never mind.
What year was it when all this happened???? 1989 -1995 Well at least your making good time. :ugh: :mad:

kingoftheslipstream

9th Sep 2006, 07:59

Brucey and Bengali
... you are both a couple of pudknockers. Thanks for hi-jacking the thread...
In the matter of AC Regional Carrier pilots wanting to sit in Air Canada metal at their regional date of hire and all that very Canadian "gimme gimme gimme what you got" stuff... it is evident that Canada has become a nation of soft thinking, entitlement oriented pretenders. What gall. :=
OAC guys, I hope you get out from under the yoke of these weinerheads trying to use the legal system to wrangle your jobs away from you.
What a disgrace.
Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss Moderator - please shut this thread down. :oh: I've contacted an old friend at AC and have the answer I was seeking anyway.
... and yes, unfortunately, it looks like there will indeed be a downbid this fall. :bored:

exbengal

9th Sep 2006, 11:24

Chevy,- if you want both sides of the story then look up Berry vs Puilley in the SCC of Canada, and yes Canadian justice is slow.

Slipstream-if you cannot see the damage done by the oac's thats being upheld by the courts in this country then your as stupid as the day is long. Jazz is hiring and ac is downbidding as you claim..................figure it out, hope you do get to ac, but untill the present whipsawing between the two groups is fixed it will not be that lucrative as others companys.

ex-beagle

9th Sep 2006, 12:13

We have these ACPA boys right where we want them. We cannot lose. We will succeed. The fact that no one else in the labour movement, airline industry, or CIRB agrees with us will not deter us from our mission of stealing estates from widows and children.

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

exbengal

9th Sep 2006, 14:15

funny how the courts agree with us,........... acpa was unsuccessful in having the lawsuit thrown out, as we head for trial

ex-beagle

9th Sep 2006, 15:22

exbengal wrote:

"funny how the courts agree with us,........... acpa was unsuccessful in having the lawsuit thrown out, as we head for trial".

Semantics bengal, semantics. All the court said was that your case was dismissed under contract law, but you may proceed with the case under tort law. Now you have to prove your case under tort law. Under tort law, you must show that you have been harmed.

Have you been harmed? I would suggest no. Hollis Harris, CEO of Air Canada at the time of Picher, said that he didn't care if CALPA merged the seniority list or not. He wasn't going to recognize any merged list. ACPA agreed and decided not to advance any merged seniority list during contract negotiations.

In a nutshell, Air Canada wasn't going to recognize any merged seniority lists. They determined that mainline and the connectors to be separate airlines (and still do).

Nothing was taken away from you. Air Canada wasn't going to allow you to fly it's aircraft unless you applied like everyone else and even then you would be put at the bottom of the list.

Therefore exbengal, the Picher list would never have been implemented, even if ACPA had agreed to it.

One last item that I think will torpedo your case is that the Supreme Court said that you had several avenues through the CIRB to grieve your case but you chose not to pursue them. That would have been the proper route. Grieve your case at the CIRB, and if you are still not satisfied, then go to court. I believe that bypassing the CIRB will hurt your case.

There you have it Bengal. Everyone so far has disagreed with you. ACPA, ALPA, Hollis Harris, Air Canada, most of your co-workers, and so far the Supreme Court. This is your final Hail Mary attempt at getting some money to compensate you for a position that you weren't going to get anyway.

You have NOT been harmed.

exbengal

9th Sep 2006, 17:18

Beagle, if you read the evidence thats been entered...........amongst others,
A letter from H Harris stating that he doesn't care if there is one list, but they want the companies SEPERATE, that he signed before Picher, then in court under oath, after Picher (7 years later) he changes his mind, (good witness).
A letter from the company stating the same.
The onous was on the ac mec to present the merged list to the company, unions uphold seniority lists not H.H. or companys.
As far as torpedoing our case you blew that infront of the S.C.C. its alive and well. When you renegged on binding arbitration it became a civil matter, not one for the CIRB, ask your company what happened when they renegged on binding arbitration on the sale of A.O. to the Deluce family, AC paid dearly.
Binding arbitration Beagle. Hence Tort. The Supreme Court of Canada paved the way for us on that one........hardly a disagreement eh Beagle.
Hope you didn't sign your solidarity agreement, but you probably did, looks like Pulley and Dean are going to drag you down with them.

ex-beagle

9th Sep 2006, 18:48

Sorry Bengal, but Hollis Harris pretty much slammed the door on any case you claim to have.

The essence of his testimony was that regardless of any position taken by Air Canada Pilots on Implementation of Picher:
https://secure.acpa.ca/images/gold_bul2.gif he would never have agreed to a pilot seniority merger where the operations themselves were not being merged;
https://secure.acpa.ca/images/gold_bul2.gif it was his personal view that any seniority merger which puts any regional pilot ahead of any mainline pilot would be unacceptably unfair; and
https://secure.acpa.ca/images/gold_bul2.gif therefore, he opposed and would not have agreed to implement any seniority merger between Air Canada and regional pilots under the Picher award.

Also unions only uphold seniority lists within the same company. Air Canada and the regionals were separate companies. According to your logic all Star Alliance pilots should be under one seniority list.

Your beef could very well be with CALPA and not the Air Canada pilots. CALPA was the organization that let you down. When the Air Canada MEC refused to advance the Picher list at contract talks, CALPA could have disciplined them according to CALPA policy. CALPA chose not to discipline the Air Canada pilots. If you are sueing anyone it should be CALPA for not following its own policy.

In the end Bengal, you will have at least another 2 years to stew over this matter and give yourself more ulcers. For me? I sleep well at night knowing that I have earned my position and the perks that go with it. I also enjoy flying with your former First Officers that came to Air Canada through the front door.

We should know the final outcome in a couple of years (at the earliest). I am aware that your opinion will not change even after the Supreme Court makes its decision. I doubt that my opinion will change either. I will not debate the issue here further as I believe all that can be said, has been said. If you care to respond, I will give you the last word.

kingoftheslipstream

9th Sep 2006, 19:16

Chevy,- if you want both sides of the story then look up Berry vs Puilley in the SCC of Canada, and yes Canadian justice is slow.
Slipstream-if you cannot see the damage done by the oac's thats being upheld by the courts in this country then your as stupid as the day is long. Jazz is hiring and ac is downbidding as you claim..................figure it out, hope you do get to ac, but untill the present whipsawing between the two groups is fixed it will not be that lucrative as others companys.

exbengal... "hope [I] get to AC"?

I retired from AC you bonehead... but you little regional pricks piss me off. You weren't ever welcome in my jumpseat...

exbengal

9th Sep 2006, 19:48

slipstream, sorry for pissing you off, hope I'm not sueing you (sounds like I am), oh well.............your still welcome in my j/s anytime.

beagle.............read the last from the SCC, union members that cause harm to other union members can be held liable, as I said Pulley and Dean covered their asses by suckering you and about 1600 others into signing the solidarity document (hopefully slipstream too) so with your name on that I'm sure your sleeping well at night.

Thanks for the last word

brucelee

10th Sep 2006, 00:03

Hey Kingo. Just how did I end up hijacking the thread? I responded with facts regarding the topic. Some other guy jumped in with something about a lawsuit and the rest is history. Sorry pal, not this time.

J.O.

10th Sep 2006, 12:23

Well exbengal and RussD, it's unfortunate that you are incapable of reading what people actually say. I did not EVER comment on the merits of the lawsuit. I ONLY commented on the legitimacy of the rants I've heard for years that you would gladly punish the innocent wives and children of your adversaries, if that's what it took to get your pound of flesh.

God forbid, but should you ever perish in an aircraft accident where you were found to be at fault, how would you feel when the victims lawyers went after your wives and children for their pound of flesh when, like the AC families in your case, yours' had no hand in what actually took place? If you honestly feel that would be okay, then I suggest you speak to your union immediately to ensure that they will pick up the tab.

transmeridian

11th Sep 2006, 08:37

Sorry to get back to the original thread but what's the impilcation of a down bid ?
Why would they do that if the company is still hiring ?

As for the comments so far from some of you....I do not understand all the issues but for the sake of human kind, you have a good job with a stable company, nice aircraft, extremely good schedual and ( except the first year or so) very good money and package and you work in your country....I suggest you take some time to think about it before starting insulting each other and look around you and appreciate what you have....By your comments I can clearly see you never lost your job or had to writte your resume many times ......Accept and move foward..:ok:

Lost in Saigon

11th Sep 2006, 15:14

A down bid can mean any net reduction in the total number of current positions. Right now there are many vacant unfilled positions.

If they remove a few A320's and add some EMJ's, it might mean a net reduction, but there is still a need to hire for all the unbid positions.

Basically there is no chance of a layoff for anyone.

transmeridian

11th Sep 2006, 15:27

Lost in Saigon,
I do not work for AC ( or any company in Canada) so that's why I was asking. Thanks for your answer and explanations. :)

exbengal

14th Sep 2006, 11:14

exbengal... "hope [I] get to AC"?
I retired from AC you bonehead... but you little regional pricks piss me off. You weren't ever welcome in my jumpseat...
I love your attitude slipstream, a week later and I'm still laughing at you, your in retirement and still pissed at us..............................I guess the lawsuit really is WORKING.

Tan

15th Sep 2006, 23:34

I love your attitude slipstream, a week later and I'm still laughing at you, your in retirement and still pissed at us..............................I guess the lawsuit really is WORKING.

I’ve seen people that carry monkeys on their back. Some of them couldn’t keep their medicals long enough to reach retirement. Perhaps the last laugh may be on you..

exbengal

17th Sep 2006, 11:32

I’ve seen people that carry monkeys on their back. Some of them couldn’t keep their medicals long enough to reach retirement. Perhaps the last laugh may be on you..
Whatever..............if laughing at some old fart that I'm sueing is carrying a monkey on my back so be it.
Funny I find the AO lawsuit anything but.
He's still welcome in my j/s though

brucelee

17th Sep 2006, 14:53

There are rumblings at ACPA about sitting down with ALPA again to see if we can't unite against RM. The so called "GS" wheels are in motion again. So I'm trying real hard to imagine the "old farts" or their representatives sitting down across the table from the very same guys who are sueing them, their wives and kids. Oh, well at least they'll be able to put a face on these guys who are doing the sueing if they haven't already done so. Frankly I can't see any solution. So let's just enjoy what salaries we make now cause it's where we're going to be for a long time. But I guess when you're expecting millions out of a lawsuit you don't care about anyone else's salary. Yep. It's all about "ME". RM must just be grinning as he enjoys that fine cognac. Ya Benny I'm sure you're going to take me back in history again to prove ACPA screwed up a long time ago. Same old song and dance.

bcflyer

18th Sep 2006, 19:43

Bruce. As much as I would love to see some sort of GS, I think it will be an even harder sell this time around. There are a ton of very bitter Jazz pilots that have been PFO'd for no apparent reason other than they work at Jazz. (I know many of them and they are exceptionally good people, very experienced and would all have been great AC employees) Its pretty hard to take when you have 8000hrs +, including alot of Jet, EFIS FMS etc etc experience, and you are turned down in favor of someone who has none of the above, and who has half of the experience level. I'm not bitching, just relaying the feelings in the crew room, as I am one of the lucky ones that managed to get hired at AC. (although I'm frozen at Jazz for a while yet) The obove guys are not going to be very happy ending up behind someone that was just hired 5 months ago. I wish there was a simple way to sort this whole thing out and present a unified front. It would benefit all of us to no end. I guess the hard part is that someone will have to give something up so that we can all get more in the long run. I hate to say it but we may have missed the boat on this one when talks broke down during CCAA. It was the ideal time to come up with some sort of deal. Why the talks broke down is irrelevant at this point. Whats done is done and we are all paying the price now.

exbengal

18th Sep 2006, 20:11

bcflyer, you assume its botl for jazz, fine, but don't you think any 10 year plus jazz type would rather try to capture the EMB flying in the next round of negots.

Just playing devils advocate here, but why would I give a rats ass about botl.

bcflyer

18th Sep 2006, 20:59

The only reason I assumed BOTL is that it is all thats really been offered in the past. I agree that most Jazz pilots don't see that as a viable alternative, especially now that there are 300 or so more guys on the ACPA list. (not positive on the number) I also agree that alot of guys are willing to take their chances and try to get the EMB in the next round of talks. The problem that I see with that idea is that it plays right into RM hands again. I don't pretend to have any answers and I know there are HUGE obstacles between the two groups, but I really feel that if we stopped expending so much energy fighting each other and put it into trying to figure out how to get together in some way, we would all benefit from it in the long run.

exbengal

18th Sep 2006, 21:21

couldn't have said it anybetter
cheers

ea340

18th Sep 2006, 22:29

Did the CRA Boys at CDN not take BOTL 1990 date or was I missing something . Rumour has it many of CRA boys are at AC with 1990 date of hire. During 1992 layoff were the AC boys offered BOTL at Air Nova . Or once again did I miss something .

brucelee

20th Sep 2006, 01:26

bcflyer.
I know there are those who will tell you the lawsuit has nothing to do with negotiations but here's some food for thought: AC use to hire 40% from the regionals. Regional pilots had a Mickey Mouse interview and basically given a course date within days of the interview. All this was prior to the lawsuit. AC is totally wrong to take it out on those who have nothing to do with the lawsuit but then again they are masters of divide and conquer. Who better to hire than those within your system? Something does'nt add up here. Hey, I could be wrong but I smell a "you screw us we screw you" thing here. I think ACPA may be in on this too. It doesn't make sense but I think that's what they're up to. As for the GS, ACPA is willing to talk only if it helps them in the long run. I can't blame the Jazz guys for being bitter for being turned down. Maybe they should consider the lawsuit being part of the hiring process. SAAAD.

readytocopy

20th Sep 2006, 20:32

brucelee...check you PM's

dss3000

21st Sep 2006, 02:44

What gives, all you Jazz : ex Air Nova, Air Ontario, Air BC, Alliance pilots, and Cdn Regional pilots any rights to seniority at AC? and the Regional / Jazz merge is another whole discussion ! You work for a different company, your lucky you get somewhat of a preference in the interview/hiring process! talk to anybody applying off the street and see if they get preferential treatment!! and don't use the experience level as an excuse, there are plenty of real high time pilots Efis/Fms international experience jet pilots applying that don't make it, BC Flyer if you think 8000hrs on a dash 8 and a regional jet endorsement is a highly experienced pilot, then why are people with multiple jet endorsements/experience getting PFO letters from Jazz ?? There are many other factors involved in the hiring process, talk to any HR dept, just because you think a specefic person is great doesn't mean they will impress the hiring board!

While I'm at it do you remember Inter Canadien? they were wholly owned by Canadian/Cdn Regional what preferencial treatment were they afforded before or after they were abruptly shut down? None, So if youre cup of tea is AC simply apply like everyone else, and let your personal credential talk for you!

Happy landings.

Lost in Saigon

22nd Sep 2006, 15:22

They are not "different companies".

Air Nova, Air Ontario, Air BC, Alliance, Cdn Regional, WERE all Subsidiaries of Air Canada at one time or another.

Here are the current Subsidiaries:

Aeroplan
Air Canada Cargo
Air Canada Ground Handling Services
Air Canada Jazz
Air Canada Jetz
Air Canada Technical Services
Air Canada Vacations

Employees of these companies ALL have status and/or benefits at Air Canada.

The "rights to seniority" you speak of were negotiated as part of the various collective agreements.

Jazz pilots get some nice benefits when they "transfer" to Air Canada.

Inter Canadian was a different story:

At one time their pilots were offered a merge with Canadian Regional but they chose to retain a separate seniority list. The F/A's did decide to have a merged list. When Inter Canadian went under, some F/A's used their seniority to transfer to different bases. The pilots were offered employment at the bottom of the list and some did get hired.

spm

22nd Sep 2006, 18:23

The list you included are subsidiaries of ACE. you forgot to list Air Canada Mainline as one as well. I think they refer to it as Air Transportaion Services in the financial reports. Then it would seem both Jazz and the mainline are seperate subsidiaries.

Lost in Saigon

22nd Sep 2006, 19:31

I suppose you have a point. In fact maybe it makes the point that all the subsidiaries are really part of the ONE company.

It also doesn't change the fact that Jazz pilots get "recognition" when they move from the Jazz subsidiary to the Air Canada subsidiary.

dss3000

23rd Sep 2006, 00:21

Lost in Saigon

I beg to differ with you, I worked at Inter Canadien and none of the pilots were offered a position with CRA, let alone Canadian. I applied to CRA I was current on the ATR and I had to practically beg for an Interview, they said that if I was successful it would be for a position in YYZ , no problem so far. Then the kick in the head came oh yes you would start at the first year salary, have to complete 6 months probation, and get this no company or travel benefits for 6 months. This was probably 1-1 1/2 months before we were shut down.

At the time they were in an expansion phase hiring off the street mostly for the F-28. With a flow through to Canadian. Go figure.

This was the offer by a company that owned 100% of Inter Canadien. We were told this was perfectly legal and we had no rights to any merge or preferrential treatment.

Anyways that's long ago and I'm probably better off now enjoying my current employment, living where I want to be and earning a real decent wage.

Cheers,

Lost in Saigon

23rd Sep 2006, 01:13

The pilots were offered employment at the bottom of the list and some did get hired.

I guess I could have worded it differently....

Inter Candian pilots were given interviews. SOME did get hired. Those that were hired were offered employment at the bottom of the list.

dss3000

23rd Sep 2006, 04:15

Well I guess they must have lost my address, telephone number and everyone else's I spoke to within a month or so of the shut down.
Because to this day I still don't know of anyone who was interviewed or hired!!!!

Why are you trying to cover up this fact? Also where and from who are you getting your information?

Anyways best of luck to everyone involved in this cut throat business, just remember its a very small world and what goes around comes around.

Cheers,

gumbi

23rd Sep 2006, 05:03

dss3000, check your pm's.

Lost in Saigon

23rd Sep 2006, 13:33

A friend of mine worked for Air Atlantic. When Air Atlantic went under he got a job at Inter Canadian. When Inter Canadian went under he got a job at Canadian Regional. It was many years ago, but at that time, he told me that others were also interviewed. I don't know exactly how many ex-Inter Canadian were hired at CRA, but I know at least one.

dss3000

23rd Sep 2006, 16:21

I guess that makes one pilot from Inter Canadien actually not really he was an Air Atlantic guy. What I'm saying is that there certainly was not a mass offer of employment to the IC pilot group. It's possible that a few were hired as I said earlier I still don't know of any except 1 pilot who had a number at CRA he was on a leave of absence, and went back.

And for the seniority merge with CRA I agree that there were discussions way back prior to 1992 0r maybe 1993 and that the Teamsters executive didn't feel it appropiate at the time. I understand that this was a decision they took on their own and never offered the members a vote on it, Go figure! don't know how legal that was!! anyways it was before I joined.

So again your statement is misleading, and not accurate at all.

Cheers,

transmeridian

24th Sep 2006, 10:18

1) As for Inter Canadian guys going to AC, when IC went under in november 1999, there was approx. 6 or 8 guys who were accepted at AC and they had more than 8 000hrs and a lot of experience
2) Interesting to see that Canadian and AC did not considere IC part of the deal but every employee paid for many years the 10 % deduction on their payslip to Canadian Airlines in YYC to help them out...

Talk about being rob.....Why is it that everyone is against everyone at AC....Groundhandling against the management or pilot..FA against pilots, Pilots against the company , pilots against pilots.....what's all that frustration and anger ???? Every jobs has its downs but like I said previously, stop looking at yourself and start enjoying your work environment and your excellent conditions....Amen to you ladies....:rolleyes:

Lost in Saigon

24th Sep 2006, 20:04

Hey "transmeridian", what are you talking about?

IC went under before Air Canada bought Canadian. So Air Canada really had nothing to do with IC.

Yes, IC was part of "Canadian". Canadian DID consider IC as "part of the deal" before they went under. The IC flight attendants had a merged seniority list with CRA. The F/A's had jobs with CRA if they wanted them. The IC pilots did not want to have a merged list with CRA so they lost out.

The problem with Air Canada is the upper management. They somehow feel that the best way to manage your employees is to treat them with intimidation, confrontation and distrust. They have been doing it for many years and it is only getting worse.

gumbi

25th Sep 2006, 04:50

Yeah right, only so that they could rob the IC employees of 10% of their salaries....[/B]

The IC pilots did not want to have a merged list with CRA so they lost out.

Obviously, you don't know what you're talking about and you didn't read dss3000's last post very well, the union reps didn't want the merger with CRA.

As dss3000 states, you probably know the only guy from IC (or was he Air Atlantic?????) who benefitted from some kinf of deal with AC, all the others that are with AC now started like everyone else, re BOTL.

Lost in Saigon

25th Sep 2006, 12:22

The Union Reps are elected by the membership. The membership could have removed their reps if they wanted to.

The IC pilot group:

1) must have agreed with the Union leaders for personal reasons... or...
2) did not care about the implications of not wanting to merge with CRA...or...
3) did not even know about the opportunity to have a merged list.

If you followed the history of Quebecair, Intair, and Inter Canadien, you might see a pattern emerge.

dss3000

25th Sep 2006, 15:15

Hi again lost in Saigon

Your latest statements concerning the Inter Canadien pilots is very rude and not called for. We were a small number of experienced Airline pilots who just happen to work for a Carrier based out of Quebec, as you might know there were alot of politics involved around the whole Intair/Inter Quebec/Inter Canadien/CRA take over or merge BS. On top of that trow in Federal/Quebec politics and you end up with a freeking mess. Now as far the membership removing the elected reps I guess this might have been an option. If they knew far enough in advance of their intentions on refusing the offer from CRA.
So please enough arm chair quarterbacking! it didn't happen so now we live with the results.

Now I'm still not sure who you work for, I suspect AC think back in the not so distant past
and tell me about greed, apathy or ignorance!! within any union group trying to get the best deal for their members. So like I said its a small world what goes around comes around.
Lets see what kind of pattern emerges next.

Lost in Saigon

25th Sep 2006, 15:33

Sorry I came across rude.

I will rephrase what I said......The IC pilot group:

1) must have agreed with the Union leaders for personal reasons... or...
2) did not care about the implications of not wanting to merge with CRA...or...
3) did not even know about the opportunity to have a merged list.

In any case, things happened pretty fast and there was probably not much that could have been done proior to Inter Canadien closing it's dooors.

dss3000

25th Sep 2006, 20:07

Lost in Saigon
I see you edited your post today!

The new one is better!

here are the answers to your points!
1-NO
2-NO
3-YES

And yes they did close it down rapidly,
no hard feelings. Except they owe me about $42,000.00 plus interest. LOL!

Cheers,

rookie

29th Sep 2006, 11:11

[QUOTE=bcflyer;2859331]The obove guys are not going to be very happy ending up behind someone that was just hired 5 months ago.[QUOTE]

Tough ****!

As an off the street new hire at AC comments like that piss me off.

Every Jazz pilot made the CHOICE to be there. I made the choice to NOT go there, as I didn't want to wait 2 years for AC. No one forced them to apply at Jazz, and no one certainly forced them to accept the position.

They are 2 separate companies, with the same parent. Why should I suffer because somebody decided to go to Jazz but now wants to come over to mainline?

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

c150driver

1st Oct 2006, 17:54

:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: ...do you ladies ever give up?

...bitches:}

exbengal

6th Oct 2006, 09:51

Rookie wrote:
They are 2 separate companies, with the same parent. Why should I suffer because somebody decided to go to Jazz but now wants to come over to mainline?

Pay attention rookie, Milton's about to play whipsaw with the two pilot groups (aka 2 billion) real soon, not a great time to be on the bottom of a seniority list is it.

rookie

6th Oct 2006, 14:08

Not sure I understand how you can corellate the share holder payout to being on the bottom of a list.

duster1

6th Oct 2006, 16:11

Within two years Milton, Brewer, Deutsch Bank, and the rest of the big money players will have pillaged the flag carrier for all they can, leaving the employees, small shareholders, and small creditors holding the bag.

One hopes that your ACPA lawsuit is successful.

flyboy519

6th Oct 2006, 16:59

Hi all ...
As a former ICN pilot ( YUL - based ), I think I need to weigh in on this topic. It was a fact that everyone at ICN gave up their 10% to CDN as part of their part in saving CDN ( I have the old pay stubs to prove it ). I know of only a couple of guys who got hired at Air Alliance on the B1900, nobody at Air Nova and no one at Air Ontario. I had an interview but no sim.
Its unfortunate that it had to close ( alot of good people there ) and I , as well as others, have moved on to other jobs ( me - EK B777 ) but I will always feel that we as a pilot group we got royally shafted out of that whole merger.

Hope all is well in Canada

day 452 - no clouds, no rain in DXB

fb519

exbengal

6th Oct 2006, 20:07

Not sure I understand how you can corellate the share holder payout to being on the bottom of a list.

Rookie, I'm not trying to sound condesending here, but Milton is fasttracking the company back into bankruptcy if he gets his way with the shareholders, if we are not a united group you can rest assured that Jazz will be bidding on your job in the next 24-36 months.

brucelee

7th Oct 2006, 00:25

Rookie, I'm not trying to sound condesending here, but Milton is fasttracking the company back into bankruptcy if he gets his way with the shareholders, if we are not a united group you can rest assured that Jazz will be bidding on your job in the next 24-36 months.

I see Milton is having a real effect on some. That statement comes right out of RM's play book. Frankly I'm sick and tired of threats. Threats that come from Milton and ALPA and all the other heroes of the industry. The united group you want will "open the gates of seniority" at AC yet again. Sorry we have no appetite for that. No now not ever. You got the RJ's, we got the Emb's. You 'll get the Emb's we'll get more 787's. Get the hint? Bring it on, it's all good. The threats will continue. Bla, Bla, Bla. Here's my suggestion "Rookie", relax, enjoy your carreer,

exbengal

7th Oct 2006, 12:03

I see Milton is having a real effect on some. That statement comes right out of RM's play book. Frankly I'm sick and tired of threats. Threats that come from Milton and ALPA and all the other heroes of the industry. The united group you want will "open the gates of seniority" at AC yet again. Sorry we have no appetite for that. No now not ever. You got the RJ's, we got the Emb's. You 'll get the Emb's we'll get more 787's. Get the hint? Bring it on, it's all good. The threats will continue. Bla, Bla, Bla. Here's my suggestion "Rookie", relax, enjoy your carreer,
Miltons effect is having acpa going to court to block the 2billion payback, it seems to be having more of an effect on your union than anyone else.
"youll get the emb's" thats my point.