I am mad?

[JAMES FLEMING]

Who reckons at the ripe old age of 41 I should risk everything......job, house, sanity and go to the states and get a CPL(H). Literally start again........anyone?

[TiPwEiGhT]

I personally would depends on what your planning on doing, instruction, north sea, freelance...

[Whirlygig]

Oi! It ain't THAT ripe!

Seriously, there are three things that you should consider:

1. Research into job market, roles available, operators, countries
2. make sure you have a job/business on which you can earn income while unemployed
3. try to keep the roof over your head; it may be your only pension!

Cheers

Whirls

[HillerBee]

Explain why?
Are you married, children?
What do you want to do with it?

[JAMES FLEMING]

Now not married, family is pretty much grown up. It would basically mean going out to the states with nothing, coming back hopefully with a licence and looking for work. I am not particularly fussed about the type of work, instructing etc, just so long as I can earn a living. I am ready to make the jump ( a mid life crisis maybe), but I have never been so sure about wanting to do something........ it's just the thought of risking everything.

[Whirlygig]

See my points 1, 2 and 3 above.

You will not earn enough a a newly qualified CPL to support a mortgage and a pension. If you have to risk everything are you prepared to lose everything - that is what is could mean.

I too am working towards a CPL but in the UK via the modular route. It is more expensive but, as the UK is where I want to work, it's here I'm going to train.

Thankfully I have a job which is always in demand and secondly, a small mortgage. My house is my safety and that will never be sold to finance flying. If that's the stage I get to, then that's the stage I'll have to quit.

Cheers

Whirls

[HillerBee]

If you go out to the States, I recommend you to do either JAA groundschool first or do the integrated course at HAI. So when you return to the UK you are licenced at ready for work. It's not easy, but when you're all by yourself it's easier. I did it with wife and three children.

It's better to regret something you've done, than regret something you didn't do.

Remember though all the quoted prices times 2 will get you there, nothing comes cheap in aviation.

[NickLappos]

Hillerbee says it well. The choice is more the question of how you make decisions and how you face regrets. If you love flying, Go for it!

[Helinut]

The above are all good observations - especially WGs 3 points.

I started when I was 38 (some while ago now!) I just had to, because if not I would have always wondered what it would have been like.

I had a lucrative profession(?) to fall back on, which was essential to start. I stayed in the UK: my personal circs prompted that. I have done quite a lot of different flying and actually earned a living at it for 5 or 6 years. Now with 6,000 hours, for what that is worth. I am currently back sharing my time - the REAL job to earn proper money and the flying to feed my addiction.

It had to be done, I don't regret it at all, but there have been some hard times. To make progress I got involved in management of helicopter companies - generally a complete nightmare. I am now much more choosy about what I do flyingwise, because I can be. There are still 1 or 2 flying jobs I would go for full time, if I was offered them, but the shared existence seems to suit me well for now. I would be particularly interested in professional licence instructing again (about half my time has been instructing), except the pay is C**p. That sadly is the usual problem - the good jobs don't pay well.

[B Sousa]

All good points above. In the Helicopter world, starting at that age is going to be better than a Jenny Craig diet... Get some Cardboard to hang around your neck that says something like "Help the retarded, feed me." Not insulting, just letting you know its going to be some hungry times ahead for the next few years till you get some hirable hours AND turbine time.
Consider the important thing is that in about twenty years you want to be able to NOT have to fly and still have a retirement income, otherwise you will have to resort to the cardboard sign again.
Good Luck..Anything CAN be done, but it aint gonna be easy.

[R1Tamer]

James,

As somebody who has done exactly what you're contemplating I believe myself to be in a pretty good position to offer you some advice. However just like I did, you'll filter out all the bits you want to hear and disregard the rest.

But here's an idea you may wish to try. Why don't you just pretend for an hour or two that you've just finished your training and passed all your exams. Now pick up the phone and make a few calls on both sides of the atlantic and see what response you get. Afterwards you may wish to recalculate your costs and your options when you really do finish your training.

R1 Tamer

[170']

I should risk everything......job, house, sanity and go to the states


James...

You can do it...There´s lot of late starters made it, in one way or another...But it´s not a smart move!

Many of us were half your age when we started, and a lot more resilient intellectually/emotionally...Let´s face it! at 18/19 you don´t have a lot to lose!..

At 41, you probably do!

There´s an awful lot of new helicopter pilots turned out every year...Not just this year, but many years gone and many years to come...I have no idea how many unemployed low time helicopter pilots their are?..But I´m glad I don´t have to send each one of them a quid!

Sorry it´s not the answer you want..But it my 5 cents...

Luck to you, whatever you decide?..170

[Steve76]

This bloody forum is turning into some pathetic "Dr Phil/Oprah" helpline for English suffering midlife crisis.
Answer to your question: NO - don't be a git. Its not our fault you denied yourself earlier in life and suddenly regret chasing other 'dreams' that obviously meaned more to you at the time. Ask yourself why you want to do this. If the answer is the familiar "I just love flying and I always wanted to do it" then the answer is still NO. Pretty soon you will not love flying and not want to do it. If the answer is "I want to make a living flying" then the answer is still NO. You are 41, you will be 42 coming back from the USA, then you will be competing with the 20yr old for the same job. You might end up with some worthless instructor rating position earning no money by the time you are 45, doing that for an undetermined time to build hours for a 'real' job. Note: impression from downunder - there are no REAL jobs in the UK. Be prepared to move.
The northsea operators will not want an old copilot.
You will not want to live in a bush camp when you are 45.
You cannot live on spagetti, 2 min noodles or Kraft dinner like a 20yr old (good call Bert...)
You will end up possibly taking a job from someone who is looking for a career, not a reason to feel like they are living for once in their life.
Dr Phil, Steve and Oprah say - chase your dream of sailing around the world or climbing Everest.

[Whirlygig]

Just one little bijou point Steve76, when I was young enough to join the Armed Forces to train as a pilot, there were no women pilots. You can't always do at 20 what you want to do.

Cheers

Whirls

[HillerBee]

Steve76 : Why would a 20yr old be more motivated or a better pilot than somebody starting out in their 40's?? So the guys who fly police helicopters, air ambulances, off-shore amongst others in the UK are not doing 'real' jobs?

Interesting point of view? Have you ever been in the UK?

By the way this is not meant to be offensive.

Hillerbee

[LUXSTAR]

well well,james i thought i will join in...this great debate,,,by the hiller bee, whrygirl thanks for the advice...sounds very sensible...james iam year older than you...but strated my dream carrer move last year...and did everything you planning to do...just finishing off my 16000....too with my ppl ,put my flat on the market last week......only because , my late parents [both died tragically ]i was alone from the age of 18....became a nurse....now a chef.....and mopving towards my childhood dream be a helicopter pilot...not for glory,money...status....just achiving something....its like staying in the crease and playing asteady innings....and avoid the bouncers and beamers...i ahve sacrifice family life....never mmarried...want work on relief one day and pass on...everything i learned to somebody oneday...i think usa/ canada then come back or stay in canada... for while...cook clean....james go for it...the world going right now.....dont plan for pension right now....just year at a time..you got another 20 years of flying....and its a challenge you do your medical every 6 months too....so keep you motivated through heallth.. side too...so hay even if you are broke...you will looking young and healthy...i do i have been 30 for the last 10 yerars....take it easy..j good luck:ok:

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

come on what is with this ...Get your licence get instructor rating BUILD up your hours .....:confused: i mean what knowledge could you pass on to student with all of your aviation experience..... you got to cut the mustard before you can spread it

[Whirlygig]

Different system in the UK. In the UK, one can commence an instructor's course after 250 whereas it ia higher in Australia I believe (lower in the States). Nobody in the UK will wmpoy someone with only 250 hours unless as an instructor.

Cheers

Whirls

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

it is 400 hrs in oz ,,and even if you did get g2, noone would give job,this is crazy .......


you know i only got my licence when i was 21, because the older pilots said the chicks ( jilleroos ) want to have sex with helicopter pilots ,,:)

YOU LYING :mad:ards

[Brian Abraham]

Steve, You talkin from experience? I seem to recall flying with a no houred copilot, married with kids and fixin cars on the side. Dont know how old he was though at the time but has worked some good jobs since from what I hear. :)

[LUXSTAR]

what knowledge,.....its life of experiences...not just aviation you pass on....its not all about bleacing your hair and lying on the beach...being loud and brash....and by the way mustard is a soft smooth paste...you dont need to cut it...its spreds quite easily...

[Whirlybird]

No time to write much, as off to the job I love as an instructor. I qualified when the wrong side of 50 - don't admit that often on here, but maybe people NEED to know that getting older doesn't necessarily mean you aren't adaptable, or that your wants and needs in life change, or that you can't live off pot noodles or sleep rough or work long hours or any of those things, OK?!!!!!!! It totally depends on the individual. Now, I'm not earning a lot, and I managed to keep the house, but not an awful lot else. But I can afford to feed me and the cats. My only luxury before I did all this was flying, and now I get paid for doing that, so I don't need that much to live on.

I could explain this better if I had more time, but what I'm saying is, decide what YOU want out of life, have something to fall back on if you can....eg smaller house or flat which you let and which will provide roof later on, maybe??? But ultimately, it's YOUR decision, not someone else's because they can't possibly know how you feel about flying or life or anything else. As for the ageist crap some people write..........(comments censored)

[JAMES FLEMING]

Thanks for your thoughts and comments. All have been really helpful.I gonna take it one step at time.

Steve 76.....thanks for your thoughts but I just feel by your rationale no-one should take up flying!

[mrwellington]

James...with your last comment you sound like you only want positive responses, even though you yourself stated it might be a "mad" move.
If you don't like the answers, don't ask the question IMHO
One good pointer in this industry: Never assume anything. Any pilot will tell you that good research prevents major f*ckups.
Have you done yours ?

[Gerhardt]

I've been following this thread from the sidelines with quite a bit of interest since it seems to pertain to a lot of people. The world is full of cheerleaders telling you to follow your dreams. My dreams tend to be filled with unclothed cuties, and I don't recall a helicopter in even one dream. Don't get me wrong, I love flying, and as much as I enjoy flying airplanes, flying helicopters makes flying fixed-wing seem boring by comparison. And I find it incredulous that there are a lot of people making a living at something that I find so enjoyable.

There seems to be a lot of people that get to our age and are tired of the job they dread driving to every morning and want a career change so that they can start enjoying more of their time. 50% of your waking hours are at work so I can't fault anyone for wanting to do something (s)he enjoys. With that said, I hope no one faults Steve76 for his comments because I'm sure much of what he said is true. But more importantly if someone CAN be discouraged from taking the leap they SHOULD be. You'll find a lot of folks cheering you on to quit your job and take up a new career as a pilot. And a lot of them laughing at people that do and fail. I've talked with enough career pilots, most of whom like what they do but are adamant that it isn't for the fainthearted. Even around the hangar here I've discovered that helicopter pilots carry some of the largest egos on two feet, so I can't imagine how bad it gets in the real world.

At this point I'm finishing up my CPL and working toward my IR, then on to CFI, just for fun really. As much as I think I would enjoy turning it into a career I can't disrupt my family, as they've gotten used to seeing my ugly face every night. And I'm kinda fond of seeing them every night. I'm slowly building hours, and while it's not likely, if an opportunity should arise one day I won't be grumbling "if only I'd prepared myself". But I'm having a helluva time with my training and it keeps me distracted from my day job enough.

[mrwellington]

I've talked with enough career pilots, most of whom like what they do but are adamant that it isn't for the fainthearted. Even around the hangar here I've discovered that helicopter pilots carry some of the largest egos on two feet, so I can't imagine how bad it gets in the real world.
I hope you would reconsider that statement regarding egos. Proff. pilots are an assertive bunch, dealing in realities, which usually gives a "no BS" attitude over the years. Offensive to some, but they keep things alive and moving. If your in a training enviroment you sometimes have to deal with the "untried, overconfident circuit pilots", which is not the reality of the industry.
Ego or assertive ? Cautious or insecure ? Big question not easy to answer, but the prejudice you display is not healthy. Lighten up :O

[Gerhardt]

Sorry about that, no offense intended. My only experience with in-person contact with career helicopter pilots has been, like you said, in the training environment, and a couple of EMS pilots. Trust me when I say I'm not confusing ego with assertive. I'm sure it's due to my limited exposure, but a little goes a long way when it comes to "helicopter pilots are better than airplane pilots" crap, along with belittling students' flying skills in front of others and even poking fun at their colleagues' skills. Or maybe that it's just that the midwest has more than its fair share of egotists.

The law of large numbers dictates that even here you'll find a handful of people full of themselves. But for the most part I've found the folks here to be incredibly friendly and helpful. If Rotorheads is typical of the professional pilots population in general...it would make my day. And I would owe everyone here an apology. Again, I'm sorry about that.

[N Arslow]

I am 41 and just so happy to be where I am. Always looking for better of course, but I know things are good.
When I was looking at a civil aviation career I was at a seminar and a BA B747 Training Captain stood up to address us. His first words (as he stood there in expensive suit and glowing tan) were to tell us not to look at him and expect the same - things would and do change.
So, those of us experienced in the industry cannot have the most pearls of wisdom to pass on to you, James Fleming. Those such as the Whirls' , R1T etc. who are closer to your level will give a more accurate picture of what to expect.
The cynical and the more positive experienced pilots can say how it is today but (with the best will in the world) you are a few years and a lot of cash away from Offshore/HEMS/corporate/police etc. and times change.
Look really carefully - not at a computer screen - but by meeting real people in real jobs and decide carefully. Go around the flying schools and see what it is to be starting out and new; both as a student and as an instructor.
Like I say - I am happy to be where I am - clearly you are less so. Just have realistic expectations for what will be a significant change if you choose to alter heading...

[Steve76]

You don't need to say sorry because you are quite correct Gerhardt. I think there are a pile of guys who really think their **** doesn't stink in this industry and they carry that for a long while until they meet or have to work around others who their skills and experience pale in comparison too. The circut wonder instructors I have met seem to have the worst attitude and most of my buddies probably think the same of me! hahaha.

There is a time somewhere in ones career when suddenly you wake up and realise this life is not a re-run of Topgun and you are just another pilot. That's the day you get on with being a pilot, provider and the ego disipates.

So, the sentiment seems to be throw caution to the wind and run with your dream. Who really care? I certainly don't and if you will not listen to the advise of guys like 170', Brian, Bert or 540 then take the under 1000hr crowds word and spend. Either way you can't take it when you die...right?

Hillerbee: obviously a 20yr old has more opportunity to recover if it goes wrong and flexibility to drop everything and head wherever the career calls. No offence taken nor intended from moi.

Brian - :) who said I have ever had to stop fixing cars! I was a looooong way off 40 at that time and as for low hours: True (we all had in comparison to you) but I probably had more hours than you had when they sent you off in a kahki huey :ok:
By the way - how do you fit 17 pax in a 204? :}

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

steve 76, that was pretty damn good .WOW

[Whirlygig]

Steve76, tell me something.

What do you suggest? I am not criticizing you for removing the rose-coloured spectacles that I'm sure some wannabees possess but you're not offering much in the way of helpful advice especially, er.. forgive me... when most of these come from the UK perspective. Don't give me any **** about global markets; at the low hours stage, the processes are quite different due to differing regulations.

Not every 18 year old has the foresight to know what they want to do for a living. I am, as most know, a Chartered Accountant. That is my second career after I realised that my dream of becoming a world-famous nuclear physicist was not going to happen (Thanks Maggie!). I'm about to embark on a third.

The question is, if you had your time again, would you be a helicopter pilot? If yes, then I would expect a little more in the line of constructive comments. If not, then why don't you go and realise your dream of being ... whatever?

Just remember, not everyone is money motivated; some have been there and done that. You seem to berate the "late starter" for taking jobs away from "career pilots". What's the difference?

It seems to me that you're saying to the IT Manager/Lawyer/Accountant/Stockbroker who wants to change career, "don't" , because you're taking away a job from some poor chap who doesn't have another qualification and can't do anything. Well, if we do? Tough! I'll train them in double-entry bookkeeping if they want!

Cheers

Whirls

[Hansard]

Yes, you're mad. We're all mad!

I did it fixed wing as a career-changer. Currently working as an Instructor earning next to nothing compared to what I used to earn...and I sold the house to fund it. If I get the best job offer in the world tomorrow, I still won't have the money I used to have. How am I going to fund my retirement?? Dunno!! Flying's great most of the time but flying for fun on a PPL isn't the same as flying for a living. Think carefully before you leap. It might look glamorous but it ain't really.

[Brian Abraham]

James, while the advice given here is well intentioned the only person who can make the decision whether to go for it is your good self. I've admired the guys like Steve who had spouse and kids to provide for taking on the lottery that is getting a leg up as a professional aviator. And there has been quite a few of them when I think about it, and it says something of the families who supported them during the low pay, poor conditions days of their carreers. Not all make it. One of Steves weekly passengers was a very high houred fixed wing GA corporate pilot (not much money) who's ambition to crack airlines never came to fruition. There was so much competition in his era that he was just unfortunate that though he was eminately qualified his name just never came out of the hat. He finally took up a job in the oil industry in order to provide for the family in a reasonable manner. 747 captains have given up their jobs to move on to something they personally found more rewarding, one I heard of flying helos cattle mustering and another to become a priest. Met a chap a couple of weeks ago who sold out of highly successful IT company to become a professional skydiver earning the princely sum of $45,000 (Oz) a year. You cant win if you dont take a ticket in the lottery, as Whirls intimates money aint everything though it does help. The very best of luck in whatever you decide.

PS Steve - 205 2 pilots, 2 gunners, 13 little Asians

[B Sousa]

"13 little Asians"

Some here can no doubt top that one. Good friend of mine with the 25th Division pulled no less than 6 plus crew off a mountain in an OH-6 during a conflict. Got him a Silver Star.

[HappyJack260]

How about the part-time route? That way you can hang onto your day job and pay the mortgage? A friend of mine works in IT during the week and flies joyrides at weekends in Tiger Moths and a Pitts S-2C, then trades his flying pay to buy more hours. He's currently getting his Instructor's rating and ATPL. He probably flies 5 times the hours I do in the Pitts, and he doesn't lose any pay for doing it. Mind you he doesn't have any family so it's more achievable. When I was his age I was either working weekends in a commission only sales job, or navigating a racing yacht (yacht-racing is the most expensive and the cheapest sport in the world - cheapest if you're crew; most expensive if your the owner).

Had I worked it out I should have done what he did... after the RN declined to fund my hobby any further I decided to go and earn the money to do it myself. I may be able to afford to pursue my passion financially but finding the time is much harder now...

[hbpfly]

I was 42 when I converted to rotary. I had a fixwing and did a lot of single engine trans-Atlantic ferry work, but it's dangerous and lonely.

I am now 51, and have 4000+ hours of rotary turbine time. I got lucky.

My son is just doing his CPLH, and I have had to invest a lot of money in him - he is lucky.

Some one will employ him - for peanuts, they will be lucky.

Do you feel lucky ?

:confused:

[jeepys]

James,

if you want to PM me then go for it. I can give you my account of it all having been there myself without getting into a girly debate about whether a monkey can fly at the age of three.
Regards,

[3top]

Jim, mate,

just make sure you got the financial part sorted!

Age is a non-issue for employment, I'd rather get a cooled off 40ish than a hot-shot 20.
I got my ticket with 27, but was a 16-year old fool at heart, learned my lessons though and am alive to tell - some of the lessons thaught me also that I am religious after all....

Again, make sure you got the quid to go through to CFII, because like it or not, your first job is going to be Instructor (unless you have your own business, a rich uncle, etc.) You can make good money as an instructor, but it is a lot of work.
When you start, dig in and pull it through, but again, make sure you can do it financially. Nothing worse than having to cut halfway to get back to some job you don't like to pay your creditline....
In the US (or any Non-EU place) count on about US$ 50K until you get your first job. Don't fool yourself with cheap offers, you still have to get the Student-Visa, you need to travel to the school, you need to rent at least a room, you might need transportation and you definitely need to buy spagetti, 2min-noodle soop, and Kraft-ready to heat/eat (shamless opy from previous post :)).

Sit down with yourself and search your soul and heart, whether you really cannot live without being a proffessional pilot (meaning helicopter flying being your source of income....).

Maybe doing your private and enjoying a couple of hours every month would do the trick....

Don't want to discourage you, but until you are a North-Sea Captain or a EMS-lifesaving Angel, or a Log-lifting precision-longline-jockey will take you closer to your 50s than you think....

First step to help with decision making, get a first class aviation medical.
No need to agravate over other issues if you are not fit in the first place....

Good luck,

3top

PS:

Just as a sample, I am 42, have 9000+ hrs in a lot of different environments. I am heading out to ge my IFR next.
BUT the reson I am not elegible for a the biggest operator on the globe is lack of twin-experience.... how will you ever get if no one gets you on the other seat....
Unless they run out of personal, no joy...