Worlds within worlds.

[cymruflier]

As a civvie I might be well out of order - but your world can only exist if it does so within mine. By definition without a nation state there can be no services (civil war and war lords apart).

When you leave the services then you must join our world for yours is but one world within a much wider spectrum of universes - as is mine. The Russian Doll or the onion syndrome.

I enjoy your forum - why wouldn't I? Fifty years ago I gained a glider pilots license a PPl and flew in Chipmunks, Varsitys, Vallettas and even a Meteor. Are you with me Steve?

I had an uncle who mustered into the RFC and then the RAF and who had the Waziristan campaign medal (the Khyber pass again), another who died of wounds received at Tangmere following straffing from the Lluftwaffe, a father who served with 9 Squadron in '40 and '41 and one surving uncle who retired as a F/Sgt (Chief Tech) armourer after 28 years (Aden.Woomera and Blue streak). Memory may fail in some of the foregoing. But not much.

As the demands upon you from 'Blare the Egoncentric' increase to be met in inverse proportion from 'Brown the miserable of the Manse' there is a danger that you will retreat within yourselves.

This is not good thinking as we need each other - the services have always had a symbiotic relationship with the populace at large. I don't see things changing.

There is little contact now between our worlds - rarely do I see any of you in uniform (I know the MI5 thing).

I don't blame you for your synonyms and acronyms and your clipped speech and your implicit reliance on each other (these things - in their own way ) - exist on the other side of the divide too.

Barrack humour will always exist, as it always has - I remember doing jankers because I tied a 6oz fishing weight into the end of my towel during a barrack room brawl.

Banter and Gallows Humour are as essential as tomato sauce is to baked beans.

But. and it is a big but, many of the Civvies think that you are engaged in "Peacekeeping duties" - I think that you are at war. Much is made of winning the 'hearts and minds' of the theatres that you serve in. How much effort is going in to wiining the H and M's of the theatre that you come from?

This post has grown beyond my intentions - but they were good intentions. To try to grow some part of Pprune, a thread or a forum that gets people knitting gloves and Balalclavas for the troops.

I say again, can we come together someway. Will anyone Rodger on that?

[Champagne Anyone?]

Can I have a glass or two of what you've been on please??:p :p :p

[Talking Radalt]

many of the Civvies think that you are engaged in "Peacekeeping duties" - I think that you are at war

That is the only bit that made any sense to me. :confused:

[Farfrompuken]

What a fantastic post, Cymruflier.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Keep it up!!!:\

I don't suppose you've been to the land of Puken yourself have you?

[GlosMikeP]

There is little contact now between our worlds - rarely do I see any of you in uniform

Because there are so few people in uniform now and so many of those who are are away at war. For e.g. the RAF is today literally 1/3 the size it was when I joined in 73.

[skaterboi]

cymruflier

I've read your post 3 times and although you might be accused of smoking something not allowed in our onion slice ;) I can and do get the jist of what you're saying (i think).

It has been proved, especially of late, that the general public don't know (or care) what the military is up to these days. Pride in our Services are at an all time low, and whilst I believe you intentions are from the heart, the situation is not at all likely to change whilst this government persists in involving us in unjust, and unpopular world policing duties.

[cymruflier]

I will not knit a hat for whoever and if you want a glass of whatever I've been on then go to bargain booze and try white lightning.

Our support is up there for grabs - if you don't want it then SFA.

If you loose faith in what you are doing now what makes you think that you will be made human when you come out? Harsh judgement I know.

What is made round. goes round- the only exception is when you don't get the chance to put the power on.

I stand by attempted post.

You can be a closed commuinity. In which case you will be exploited by politicians.

You can be a closed society, in which case you will be ignored by the public.

Within military Pprune there is much binding in the marsh - a sign of the times I know. How do you propose to change it? Resign on masse? Stage a Palace Revolution? Strike? Mutiny?

"The longest of journeys starts with the smallest of steps".

Not a Journo - signed the official secrets act before most of you were conceived. I helped to make what you were going to drop.

[cymruflier]

I expected to be ignored. I don't do waccy baccy - would you believe that I wouldn't even know the smell?

It's late - at least for me.

My father was - after a long time - my hero. I nursed him thro' Altzhiemers, off thread I know, but I will come back if there is interest. I have his log book and early photos of the RAF going back to about '38.

Question. Would you open a thread or a forum for a link between us and you?

[Jackonicko]

I'm too dim to know what straffing is (is it some sort of staff equivalent to strafe, using paperclips?) but I'm intrigued about the Lluftwaffe attacking Tangmere. Was that the Welsh air force? Were they on the German side?

This is all just too confusing......

[cymruflier]

Glosmikep

You know what you said is not true, I accept the 1/3d principal.

So I should see someone in uniform now and again.

I do - the ATC and the Royal Welsh beating the retreat at Caernarfon

Your one third rule just does not stand up.

I want what you want - armed forces that I can rely on. Well trained and well equipped. I don't want to be confrontational - how do we get there?

[cymruflier]

jackonico.

See you want to be the dog that bites the hand that feeds. Ah well you won't be the first cur to die of starvation.

[Blacksheep]

I think Tangmere is a housing estate these days Jacko Even the Welsh Air Force wouldn't deliberately target civilians... :ooh:

I get the gist of it though. Unless I'm much mistaken he's saying the armed forces have become invisible to the population at large. The result is an apathy towards what you are all doing. In fact, the majority of the populace of UK would prefer that you were all out of the sandpit and back at home, parading on Horse Guards or frightening honest country folk by occasionally blowing the tiles off their roof with a Tornado or two. With the firemen threatening to strike and the security gates at Heathrow under-staffed, people are beginning to ask where the armed forces have got to as well. But you're not allowed to wear uniform at the airport, are you? ;)

[BombayDuck]

Thanks Blacksheep for doing that summary - I was about to attempt the same.

As a civvie, and not even one from Britain, I still do understand what he was trying to say. I do believe that the members of the Armed Forces deserve far more than they get - especially for the media, and that military people ned to be a little more PR savvy and attempt to build more lines of contact with those who have no clue as to the life of a soldier.

Hats off to cymruflier for a noble-minded post.

[Pontius Navigator]

The bit of Tangmere that I was at in May looked very much like an airfield. I was giving a talk in the hangar/museum. I seem to recall a tower, certainly the car park was full of heavy metal.

[Pontius Navigator]

This thread reminds me of Undermilkwood. Sureal.

[BEagle]

Yes, try reading Saucepan Bach's posts in a sort of Richard Burton-after-a-few-drinks voice!

I quite understand what cymruflier is saying - there is now a danger of the Armed Forces becoming even less well-known in the public eye than ever before. Rarely are they seen in uniform in public nowadays.

Lluftwaffe. Rather neat that - is that the new unit name for all the folks at Y-Fali?

[ancientaviator62]

cymruflier,
all of the armed forces were ordered to become invisible (OUT OF UNIFORM OUTSIDE BASE on the mainland by our craven lords and masters around the early 70's when the IRA campaign got underway. We were even refused permission to wear uniform at a memorial service for a colleague. Nothing has changed as far as I can see.

[Pontius Navigator]

ancient, uniforms are permitted from time to time but the rules keep changing. Problem with the modern, comfy wear, is that it does not look like military uniform and is not smart.

If it is DPM the only way to differentiate is to see if the guy is wearing trousers, top and boots with the boot polished. Too many ponce around in designed DPMs. Some time ago, not that long, I saw a pretty young thing in a designer NBC Mk 3 NBC top.

This was a real designer item and not a functional NBC top. It was in shiny green fabric, like mine, identical hood and toggle, like mine, same map pocket but pukka nylon lining.

No wonder Joe Public is confused.

Gone are the days when your matelot stood out at Crewe station with his pusser's suitcase.

[PompeySailor]

Ah, the public perception. A well-known and poorly addressed problem. The general public believes that anyone in combat/DPMs is a soldier - not helped by a media which peddles to the lower common denominator. It also believes that sailors are permanently drunk and on the pull, and that the RAF is manned by WWII stereotypes called Algy. Some believe the total strength of the Armed Forces to be around 2 million (!). We don't put ourselves in the public eye very well - the biggest exposure some have to the military are the bearskin boys in London. Our solution is to try and put RN/RAF markings on trainers and pencil cases......

Navy Days is well supported, as are Air Days, but the average age of attendance is increasing, and the "ex-servicemen" make up a huge percentage of attendance numbers. The lure of big ships or fast aircraft is simply not enough anymore - they are more likely to go "wow" over the graphics chip in a PS3 than the real thing.

We only really seem to get in the papers when things go wrong - there is nothing the media likes more than a knuckle-dragging, drooling, shaven headed thug who eats babies and craps cluster bombs. Even when we are doing our jobs, the hand-wringers revert to type and portray us and breachers of human rights.

In the "olden days", when industrial leaders, media tycoons and politicians were ex-Service, or had exposure to Service life through relatives, conscription, etc, we didn't suffer the way we do now, having to fight for cash and respect.

[microlight AV8R]

I can understand the post and recognise it as a genuinely supportive stance. The problem is that the majority of the British public feel detatched from our service folk. Quite the opposite to Israel where everybody knows a serving soldier or a reservist. Or for that matter is a reservist! There are a number of reasons as I see it.... The armed forces are much smaller in numbers. They are all away fighting in distant lands fighting wars which do not have widespread support. The media is all powerful and generates too many distractions. An example: My 23 year old son came home last night and remarked (With considerable annoyance and indignation)" We've lost 14 poor sods in a Nimrod yesterday, another squaddie today and the Canadians lost a lad to (un)friendly fire but all I've heard on the radio all day is people talking about this bloke who got stung by a fish!" This from a civvie whos only time in uniform was as an ATC cadet, but it was enough to engender that link and sense of kinship with our servicemen and women. Unfortunately that is the exception. You did a good job in the cold war, perhaps too good. People do not recognise the link between our lack of war at home with having efficient armed forces who are prepared to do the job. I think the biggest danger is that the majority of people will come to see you as the people who go and fight overseas and have no real purpose as part of UK society.
The banter was as good as ever, but I think that this Cymru chap has a point. Message ends.

[WorkingHard]

Would someone be kind enough to explain the current rules about wearing uniform outside military establishments please?

[airborne_artist]

In years past the RNR/RMR/TA/RAuxF fulfilled part of the role to mesh between the Armed Forces and the civilian world. Options for Change also brought about a significant decrease in the numbers in the volunteer reserves, while the more recent "rule" that TA at least will be mobilised once every three years for six months or more has prompted many to leave, and far fewer to enlist, at a time when what we actually need is more, with wider skills.

The RN and the RAF have in the process reduced their geographical spread of bases and concentrated their remaining assets at super-bases, thus exacerbating the impact of reduced regular troop numbers.

The end result is that most civilians will have far more contact (and perhaps their only contact) with the military via the SCC/ACF/ATC - particularly the latter (the largest cadet org in UK), which is now numerically larger than the RAF by several thousand.

[Wader2]

WEARING OF UNIFORM IN PUBLIC
In Oct 03 2SL/CNH issued a Galaxy Briefing Note (32/03) promoting the increased wearing of uniform in public in the UK.

Particularly in this year of the Trafalgar 200 Bicentenary celebrations ACNS is keen to emphasise that, within the bounds of the guidance and judgement advice contained in Galaxy Briefing Note 32/03, wearing uniform in public is to be encouraged and, in particular, individuals should take the opportunity to wear uniform when attending public official functions.

Accordingly, as an example of an occasion when uniform should be worn, and further to previous advice, CGRM has directed recently, with First Sea Lord’s agreement, that the rig for the Mountbatten Festival of Music for all serving members of the Naval Service who are attending, as either hosts or guests, is mess undress (with miniatures only).

[WorkingHard]

Wader 2 - to any one reading this who is not in the military it is absolutely meaningless. What was "cymruflier" explaing earlier about a great divide? I think you have proved his point

[GlosMikeP]

Glosmikep

You know what you said is not true, I accept the 1/3d principal.

So I should see someone in uniform now and again.

I do - the ATC and the Royal Welsh beating the retreat at Caernarfon

Your one third rule just does not stand up.

I want what you want - armed forces that I can rely on. Well trained and well equipped. I don't want to be confrontational - how do we get there?

Au contraire mon brave; I believe it absolutely. There were 105000 of us in 1973 and the numbers are now moving through 45000 to, as I was told, about 35000. Army cut in half, no recognisable navy for a maritime nation.

And with more conflict now than in the cold war days, there's no one home!

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I think a link to another thread that tries to deal with these issues would be apt.

Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=111156)

[Wader2]

Wader 2 - to any one reading this who is not in the military it is absolutely meaningless. What was "cymruflier" explaing earlier about a great divide? I think you have proved his point

Dear Chap, as this is a straight lift from a dark blue document who am I to try and interpret it.

Agree it is jargonesse of the worst kind.

PS it was also the only 'hit' I got when I did a search. No wonder we are confused as well.

[airborne_artist]

For the purposes of making sense of:
"WEARING OF UNIFORM IN PUBLIC
In Oct 03 2SL/CNH issued a Galaxy Briefing Note (32/03) promoting the increased wearing of uniform in public in the UK.

Particularly in this year of the Trafalgar 200 Bicentenary celebrations ACNS is keen to emphasise that, within the bounds of the guidance and judgement advice contained in Galaxy Briefing Note 32/03, wearing uniform in public is to be encouraged and, in particular, individuals should take the opportunity to wear uniform when attending public official functions.

Accordingly, as an example of an occasion when uniform should be worn, and further to previous advice, CGRM has directed recently, with First Sea Lord’s agreement, that the rig for the Mountbatten Festival of Music for all serving members of the Naval Service who are attending, as either hosts or guests, is mess undress (with miniatures only)."

Simply replace "2SL/CNH/ACNS/CGRM/1SL" with "the top brass"

Since it was a purely internal RN/RM memo, it is reasonable to assume that the recipients understood it without the need for very small words, or as in the more junior services, lots of pictures :E

[cymruflier]

Thank you all. I didn't expect any replies other than in the vernacular - obviously there were one or two of those. My confrontational post desrved them, as did I.

The question remains - how do we support you?

I fully understand the uniform bit. I for one would think twice before wearing a hoody and running for the tube - never mind you. What a cock up, as I understand it all the shots were fired at CLOSE range - like six inches - two rounds are unaccounted for. ie they were not in the body. So where did they go? How can this happen with trained fire arms personnel? Provocative and diversionary - so I will leave it there.

To day I wrote to the Daily Telegraph congratulating Lord Guthrie on his statement. If they publish it you may be able to find it. On the day after the Nimrod crash I sent a formal complaint to the BBc about their
coverage in the immediate aftermath.

By an accident of birth I am of Welsh decent, by an accident of divorce I live in Wales. My chances of changing things thro' the ballot box are less than those of a Sunni in Bagdad.

Which is precisely what the Government intends. Tomorrow I will write to the Prime Minister (I respect the office if not the incumbent) to ask a simple question.

Sorry for a long post but can I leave you with this:-

Yesterday a good friend of mine who had just put her mother and mother in law into granny farms and was told that her 50 year old sister was going PDQ cried on seeing the pictures in our very local rag of the crew of a certain Nimrod'

As to the Wesh Air Force?

Thomas Edward Jones - Northumberland Fusiliers. Twice reported missing believed KIA. Tied to a gun carriage as field punishment for saying in response to a pep talk that he was there to defend his family and not his King.

Thomas Edward Jones - RFC and then RAF. (Eldest son)

C L Jones (Fl/lft) Navigator on the first thousand bomber raid whilst serving at an OTU after 30 ops, my father.

Ronnie Jones - not Tangmere I admit - but Biggin Hill. Contracted TB after taking a round in the flesh. Half brother to my father. Allthough he never knew that until the day of his mothers funeral. **** happened even then - but it was usually hiiden.

Gerald D Jones, now over eighty - armourer.

Every one of the above served "doon the pit" until they were old enough to serve.

It is not a matter for me alone to try to bring worlds within worlds into one.

Recruitment and retention are falling - now there is a surprise!

Yet there has never been such a time when so many have been asking "What did you do in the war Grandad".

If you want to start a forum that allows us to come together then I will support it any which way I can. If not I tried.

[Skunkerama]

The question remains - how do we support you?




Send us all daughters between the ages of 18 - 26?

[Mr C Hinecap]

We are invisible because:
a higher percentage of us are probably deployed for longer

there are actually less of us, so have to spread out a bit

there are less bases so fewer communities to integrate with (or steal their women)

the bases that are left are nowhere near the average town or city, so most of the populus never see us, never mind at work

we come from a generation where our parents didn't serve in the war or do national service (exept you old pharts)

There are many more angles to it, but we are not on the doorstep so we're not visible. A thread on a forum won't change that.

[cymruflier]

Talk about knitting patterns if you will and the daughters comment was both expected and fatuous.

I live near Valley and regularly see Hawks, Nimrods, VC10's (I think), gunships - the SAR chaps (122) and Hercs doing the terrain bit. NEVER ONCE have I heard a complaint.

I return to my original post - Much Binding in the Marsh.

Looking at most of your threads they all go the same way. Under paid, over there, misundersood, unloved and unwanted.

YOU are part of a self fullfilling prophesey. THEY don't want us so WE will go under the radar. That is your choice - if we don't know you how can se salute you?

I am trying to tell you that most of us are glad that you are there, happy with what you do and know that it must be done.

Last year out in Caernarfon bay in my boat fishing a Hawk from Valley returning from a sortie at PenLlyn saw me and.......rat...a...tat...... sank me. Nice one son. I bet I enjoyed it more than you did. I would have swapped places any day of the week,

PC is not a given, it can only exist for as long as the wolves outnumber the rabbits and until the rabbits learn to bark and bite.

From your posts (general) I can tell where you think the world will go. It will - but not because of predestination but because of your fatalism.

We need you all. Always have and always will. Change will not come from the top down until it is backs to the wall time.

Lord Guthrie has spoken on your behalf - support him. That is 30 000 of you plus kith and kin, say 120 000. Maybe another 120 000 of us out there. Then the other services - we are now over a million.

Support Guthrie for another reason - if you don't you undermine the current chiefs who will simply toe the line.


Speak quietly but own a big stick.

YOU could in the space of a few days send a million hits to the Telegraph comments page - wow. That might be democracy in action

[Pontius Navigator]

<<I live near Valley and regularly see Hawks, Nimrods, VC10's (I think), gunships - the SAR chaps (122) and Hercs doing the terrain bit. NEVER ONCE have I heard a complaint.>>

Ah yes, that would be the Vickers Funbus. The one with the gun turret in the front.

And did you pick up the lead story in tonight's news? Chap in jail failed to take enough tablets to kill himself. Not that is PC.

[cymruflier]

Beagle. Dim problem. S' dyty. Y eachh y dda? Like to run this one thro' spell cheque? Os gwellychyn 'tha.

Danke mein friend
Post me the results.

Under Milk Wood - not worthy of comment really.

Keep on truckin. Not the point really.

I will go away - honest.